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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1319829 times)
GrangeParkCobbler
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« Reply #30640 on: December 05, 2021, 00:40:41 am »

ok forget the word debt. How should any proceeds from 5U Sport been allocated and what difference does it make to the club?

Ok, just a thought.....how about if the owners had made £4m profit from that deal with 5USports they could have used that in 2018 to finish the stand back then if it is the answer to our prayers?  Grin They'd have made at least £750k of it back by now according to their own figures, plus....they would have been able to develop the land by now, something which again they can't yet do because they haven't finished the stand!
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« Reply #30641 on: December 05, 2021, 00:43:25 am »

Think that's me GPC for embarrassing him by making it know on here, that he was due to represent the Trust by accepting the kind offer of hospitality from Exeter, for Tuesdays game.


Not for embarassing me and for your information I was not 'representing' The Trust.  
It was just the fact that an unelected Idiot decided to use it as a means of sniping against me. When all I was doing was taking advantage of two 'free' hospitaility tickets that had been offered to The Trust, because none of The Trust Board were attending or available to take advantage of them themselves.
I was doing The Trust a favour, I wasn't expecting it to be turned back on me in a derogatory manner.
I do not need 'freebies' and I have now declined the offer.
I will be there anyway, as I am at every away game, apart from Harrogate next week, because I do not have one of the 600 golden tickets.
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« Reply #30642 on: December 05, 2021, 01:15:20 am »

Ok, just a thought.....how about if the owners had made £4m profit from that deal with 5USports they could have used that in 2018 to finish the stand back then if it is the answer to our prayers?  Grin They'd have made at least £750k of it back by now according to their own figures, plus....they would have been able to develop the land by now, something which again they can't yet do because they haven't finished the stand!
So basically you are suggesting that investors hand over 3.25 million without any guarantee they can recoup that money at that point in time via the land deal, whilst also being in for 3 to 4 million to the club increasing their total investment to 6 to 7 million in 3 years. This on a league two club that was on its ar5e and about to go to the wall when it was purchased 3 years prior. If I was an investor in the club I wouldnít do that for my own mother irrespective of how I obtained my capital. Easy come easy go is not a phrase you will hear often in this game.

Edit: Having given this a bit of thought are we saying this is now a timing issue and the owners have made a financial error of judgment regarding this process? Some are unhappy with the deal and the amount being spent on the stand. There has been acceptance, rejection, acceptance, votes and meetings to the point where I am a bit lost. However, had the owners have done exactly the same in 2018 then that would have been perfectly acceptable? I donít mean to be pedantic but a huge amount of effort has been put into attempting to get to the bottom of this 5U Sport thing. Can anyone state exactly what the issue is with the way events have transpired, what the owners are being accused of and what should happened as an alternative. All this innuendo and cryptic accusation is all very confusing.
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« Reply #30643 on: December 05, 2021, 05:50:30 am »

Same old Random missing the point as usual, if you, GPC or anybody else has any proof of wrongdoing by the Directors of NTFC then do something positive about it, why is that so hard for any of you to do ? As i say ,if you have proof, i will support the outcome if its proven. Ive seen the figures time and time again, so im saying, go to HMRC,   go to the police, go to the FA, go to the EFL, show them the proof of the wrongdoing, get it sorted, put it right. Why do you try to use it as a tool to dislodge the Directors rather than doing the right thing.
At the moment the Trust are being used as a political pawn between the parties in Northampton, who has engineered that scenario i dont know , but they have played you very well indeed.
I have read the detailed posts from the sidelines and agree with the opinion that if there is anything illegal done then report it to the authorities..........................................BUT I am concerned that the CPS have made no decision after all this time concerning DC and the Bushey Boys so what confidence can you have for any future actions?
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« Reply #30644 on: December 05, 2021, 07:10:41 am »

.

There are others like Random, Legal advisor John, Chris and Stefan who just don't come across well at all and do more harm than good in my opinion.

Is that John Morgan, by any chance? The way he speaks to people on the Trust Facebook pages is vile.
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« Reply #30645 on: December 05, 2021, 09:34:06 am »

Lots of people who donít know all the facts arguing as if they did! Itís hilarious (and yes I am one of the people).
Very few people know all the details and they are almost certainly never going to declare them, and the concept of they havenít denied it so it must be true is pathetic.
If I was KT I would keep quiet too, mainly to gauge how angry and red in the face some get on here.
Happy Sunday
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« Reply #30646 on: December 05, 2021, 10:21:11 am »

Ok, here goes again. There may be some manipulation regarding corporation tax. On a personal level when you take the money personally you are liable as per the taxation rules in your country of residence. In fairness to me I am liable for tax on a corporate level and personal level in 2 different countries so on that basis I have a smidgin of knowledge.
This is probably the reason for the shell companies, you are indeed correct if the money was paid to the US there would have been a considerable tax liability.
I personally donít think anything illegal has taken place, both KT and DB are far too savy and been in business too long to take that risk for what is to DB peanuts.
MC Hammer, who ever you are, you are correct in saying itís their money, their deal and itís their right to not divulge the nature of the transactions.
Conversely itís also everyone elseís right to question this, I suggest everyone thinks about this, do we want a chairman that allegedly retains a large portion of the sale of the CLUB yet still loads the club with over £7m debt and refuses to be transparent?

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« Reply #30647 on: December 05, 2021, 10:38:44 am »

This is probably the reason for the shell companies, you are indeed correct if the money was paid to the US there would have been a considerable tax liability.
I personally donít think anything illegal has taken place, both KT and DB are far too savy and been in business too long to take that risk for what is to DB peanuts.
MC Hammer, who ever you are, you are correct in saying itís their money, their deal and itís their right to not divulge the nature of the transactions.
Conversely itís also everyone elseís right to question this, I suggest everyone thinks about this, do we want a chairman that allegedly retains a large portion of the sale of the CLUB yet still loads the club with over £7m debt and refuses to be transparent?


But Manny this is what I genuinely donít get, what does it matter to us whether itís debt or not? When these 2 walk theyíre going with every penny they can carry. If they can walk with 10 million they will. The fact 7 million could be called debt means nothing to the club, either way they are walking with their hypothetical 10 million. Their personal tax liability would be reduced by some of it being debt, but I canít see that it matters to us supporters, that 10 million is going down the road either way.
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« Reply #30648 on: December 05, 2021, 11:03:59 am »

Why do certain posters on this board think it is all Trust v Club?

I post on here as GrangeParkCobbler, have done since I believe 2007.

Genuine question to other posters......is everything I now post tainted by the fact I have been a Trust Board member for the last 10 months, yes 10 months out of a 14 year posting history?

As I put in my earlier post...I posted the facts as GPC, just as I did when Cardoza was in charge. Many many (far too many) did not see what was coming, did not see that anything was wrong until it was too late. I was posting information then and asking questions, just as I am now. It has nothing to do with the Trust.........
Not in the minds of all readers GPC.
I ask that you carry in posting in the manner that you always have. I'm sure you would preface anything official from the Trust in any case so as not to misrepresent yourself.
The information you have provided since I joined this board in 2013 has been second to none. Your posts on this thread in particular always seem balanced, factual in the main, and normally without personal comment in the first instance.
The fact that they invite personal comment from others can only be a good thing.
Keep on keeping on.


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« Reply #30649 on: December 05, 2021, 11:49:05 am »

Not for embarassing me and for your information I was not 'representing' The Trust.  
It was just the fact that an unelected Idiot decided to use it as a means of sniping against me. When all I was doing was taking advantage of two 'free' hospitaility tickets that had been offered to The Trust, because none of The Trust Board were attending or available to take advantage of them themselves.
I was doing The Trust a favour, I wasn't expecting it to be turned back on me in a derogatory manner.
I do not need 'freebies' and I have now declined the offer.
I will be there anyway, as I am at every away game, apart from Harrogate next week, because I do not have one of the 600 golden tickets.

LOL

so explain oh non-idiot, how you were doing the Trust and favour yet were not representing them?

And again it was your post being derogatory about the Trust and community feel in the first place is why the Trust "turned back on you"

You and others seem to feel that the Trust are accountable for every single word & action, that they should provide information and evidence to the ninth degree, that they are responsible for every failing of our owners and football club, that its all their fault.

This would be acceptable if those people held the owners and club to the same standards but you don't - then you complain that the Trust has become both more defensive and attacking in dealing with certain people and the club.

If you don't like how the Trust is then fine, set-up your own or ride on the coat tails of Tom Cliffe, as they said ignorance is bliss.

Keep calling me an idiot, it was exactly the same before with DC and the same now, i was proved right with DC, as I said ignorance is bliss.

Why now engage your non-idiot brain and reply and debate some of the detail in some of my posts?  as i said very easy to personally attack me and the Trust, much much harder to defend our owners
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« Reply #30650 on: December 05, 2021, 11:53:29 am »

The other Board members on the Trust must cringe everytime you post on here Random, you are the biggest embarrassment ever know .
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« Reply #30651 on: December 05, 2021, 12:20:23 pm »

Really appreciate your responses GPC and I for one appreciate the level of detail you provide when possible.  I also fully accept that this is your response not that of the Trust and that's all I was asking for.

So really what it seems to boil down to is an unease with the complexity of the business structure and whether we as supporters ethically believe the owners are allowed to sell their share holding for £6+ million and reaquire it essentially for £1+ million having seperately over 7ish years loaned the club the equivalent amount of that initial sale.

Everything else around where the money went, whether they paid the right tax on it etc. is all a little irrelevant in the most part unless there is evidence of serious wrong doing and I haven't seen or been told that there is.

I hate to say this as I know I'm opening myself up for the usual supects to hurl more abuse my way....I don't think we have a right to expect to know how much someone sells their share holding for.  You are not taking that money out of the club that's the shareholders money not the clubs.  The club has no right to it.  So by that token it also applies to the reacquirement.  So in reality that means the amount of profit they made is irrelevant as it's their money not the clubs.

So maybe it's time for everyone to put this specific debate to bed and only raise it again if new evidence is obtained that shows any actual wrong doing.

If there was evidence of taking money that was intended for the club or something illegal had taken place then that would completely alter my view.

Nice post MC, depends how you define serious wrongdoing.

For myself and I expect others, it is about the morals and trust. Now KT might be getting a harder time from us because he follows on from DC, but there is a very similar pattern, today ask people how many of them trust DC? Asked them did they trust him 6 months before he left?

The Chinese deal, which ever way you look at, is questionable at best, especially given that these people came from nowhere.

If they were bona-fide businessmen with a long history then I expect it would have played out very differently,

If the figures had been say £3m or £4m, you might think, ok KT got a great price for 18 months work.

But £6.68m for a club struggling at the bottom of L1, with no assets or players, especially when the owners paid only £1 and £168k debt only 18 months earlier, for a club that the owners said was not worth developing, £6.68m REALLY?

Then there is this strange loan by the previous owners to the new owners - (the chinese owner 100% of the club then) borrow £1.1m from KT / DB (incidentally a similar amount that they received KT / DB each received privately)

And stranger still they have about 14 days to repay it.

And then stranger still, that £1.1m loan is secured by £6.68m value of shares in the company.

They don't pay so KT/DB call in their security and re-acquire the shares

Yes all transactions "Legal" although given that you are questioned and recorded transactions of £10k for money laundering, who knows.

Other trust (not The Trust) issues regarding KT intentions and actions (for me) that he has no real intentions to move our club forward include:

The announcement of £4m "ringfenced" we will get the East stand done -  6 years and still nothing - expect some basic plans and CGI's

The behind the back of the council deal to get the 22 acres of land

The appointing of a manager who had not achieved promotion in 20 years

The debt loaded onto the club with little asset / balance sheet gains

The debt now at a very similar level to the chinese deal

That around the ground and club there have been very little changes despite around £37m flowing through the hands of the owners. Look around £37m !!!!!!  £37m, luck if the Carr's bar has had £3,700 spent on it in 6 years.

And all of this at a club that has 100 year history, is lucky to have space around it's stadium, is centrally located, with excellent access, with no major club around us, with a local population of 300k. Compare that to Forest Green Rovers or Accrington or Rotherham.

You really think we are lucky to have owners that we do?  You really trust them ?  Expect if you are happy just to stay the same and have L2 football, in a poor ground, with poor facilities then great, you have what you want. I and others want more




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« Reply #30652 on: December 05, 2021, 12:34:00 pm »

The other Board members on the Trust must cringe everytime you post on here Random, you are the biggest embarrassment ever know .

there you go more insults

Obviously i give you far too much credit to think you could actually debate or offer anything to the discussion

Many of the Trust board are absolutely fed up with the treatment that both individual members and the Trust as a whole receive from people like you.

I invite you to attend a board meeting where you can ask them direct how much of an embarrassment I am to them. But I expect you won't, you will be too busy or it will beneath you or something.

The Trust board give up an awful lot of their time, they care passionately about NTFC, they want owners who are at least half as passionate as them about NTFC.

Can we improve, of course we can, we all at the Trust get frustrated about various things, but we are 11 people, spending zero money, trying to get a better deal for NTFC against owners who have a great deal to personally benefit from, with £6m annual turnover to play with, media staff and local media on stand-by, with a local council who want to help the club and value the Trust input but have a minefield of political considerations, and then you have the fans, who have no interest in the Trust unless the **** has hit the fan and expect us to do something. And some who even go as far as doing everything they can, whilst hiding in the shadows of a messageboard, to insult and belittle anything and everything we say.

If that makes me an idiot and an embarrassment, so be it.  

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« Reply #30653 on: December 05, 2021, 13:52:55 pm »

It stinks, all of it, ironic as sixfields was built on a huge pile of ****
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« Reply #30654 on: December 05, 2021, 14:33:03 pm »

So I continue to read with decreasing interest (because the cycle of entrenched views never changes)

So my take in simple words (and I could do without the patronising response from some on here)

KT & DB may or may not have made some money on the Chinese deal but it seems like it or not nothing illegal, and nothing that obliged them to either reduce the personal debt of the club or invest in infrastructure - yes I would have liked that they did the former but if they didn't no amount of repetitive words is going to change that.

On the trust - I have no doubt their intention and hard work was motivated by what was best for the club but in my opinion they failed - (Before I get jumped on, failure is not the same as fault, which in many cases lies with others) - but they failed to engage constructively with KT (most possibly down to him) and they failed to influence the council (a view and a strategy I both endorsed and encouraged) - the council in my opinion only paid lip service to the trust's views and never enforced additional conditions on the land sale which would have benefited the club. The trust tried and failed but who else was fighting in our corner to get a better deal for the club?

I think the trust now have a role to unite the fan base - drop in some quarters (hopefully a minority) the somewhat arrogant view that "we know best and the majority of fans are stupid" - equally some of the social media players  who seem to be paid up critics of the trust just for the sake of it perhaps should take a more conciliatory tone.

I still believe that irrespective of owners a well structured bond scheme for ground and infrastructure improvement could make a massive difference - it seems a bit of a paradox that so much energy has been spent in a strategy aimed at a property speculator doing the right thing (BTW - its not going to happen!) rather than an innovative plan B that galvanises support from occasional supporters through to sizeable local business.

I'm now resigned to a future that delivers a mediocre East stand and likely change of ownership - as I've said many times the "golden opportunity" actually disappeared when the £10 million was stolen and far less to do with the current situation.

Football is unique in that doesn't follow normal rules - and I couldn't help rereading Random's lengthy and well researched albeit somewhat one sided powerpoint presentation to the council on all the clubs that are doing so much better than us - yes of course there are other example and infrastructure may have an influence on medium term future but on current standing Peterborough will be playing at the same level as us, as will Plymouth, Doncaster will be a league lower and Exeter will need to win a play off to play at the same level as us - funny old game isn't it!

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« Reply #30655 on: December 05, 2021, 14:52:19 pm »

Genuine question, why do some of you care so much?

And why are you going around and around arguing with each other on the same stuff?
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« Reply #30656 on: December 05, 2021, 15:21:39 pm »

Genuine question, why do some of you care so much?

And why are you going around and around arguing with each other on the same stuff?
Why do I care so much ? well I've supported the club for 60 years and a really want them to be around, as a League club, for at least a further 60 years. I spent loads of time and money on helping keep NTFC alive the last time the sh*t hit the fan and I don't want that to be wasted a few years later.
      Despite what some on here think, I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Trust board, of which I was a member for about 10 years, have no problem with KT/DB making a profit out of any deal as long as NTFC do OK as well. But if we get left with a very basic stand, no land, a business that runs with a £1M deficit every year and a still significant debt, I'm seriously worried about our future and I'm also worried that some of our fans don't see it as a problem  Sad
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« Reply #30657 on: December 05, 2021, 16:39:19 pm »

I will specifically answer these questions then with a non-trust hat on. Anyone who knows of my posting history on this site will remember that I did this sort of thing (digging and trying to make sense of stuff) during the Cardoza era too, long before I became involved with the Trust!

Chinese deal...what problems do I have with it? It just seemed strange right from the offset...an unknown company appearing, no history, seemingly no resources, suddenly being able to invest millions of pounds in a struggling fourth tier English Football Club..... it just felt wrong right from the start.

Anything illegal taken place? I don't know as I'm no legal expert. However, when you look through the filings of Northampton Town Ventures, Northampton Town Football Club, and Fantastical Limited (all UK registered companies) you can't find any record of any income at all. So if the Chinese paid money to any of these, why does it not appear in any of the filed accounts for these companies around the times of the transactions.
I would have thought that there should have been some record of something...??

Northampton Town Ventures filed a confirmation statement which was made on 4th November 2017 which listed no updates.....yet the two Chinese had been appointed as Directors of Ventures some three months earlier.

When Northampton Town Ventures was set up in 2015 the directors were David Bower and Kelvin Thomas, however the ONE share in Ventures was owned by a different company, namely Fantastical Limited. Therefore Fantastical "owned" Ventures. Fantastical had two directors, Bower and Thomas.

Fantastical though has filed accounts as a dormant company every year since inception. How can this be, when the Company they owned (NT Ventures) was sold in 2017? It wasn't until 10th August 2021 that Fantastical ceased to be "a person with significant control" in Ventures.

Am I unhappy that the owners made such a large profit from a private transaction? Well yes because I hate all the structure of the club, parent company, ultimate parent company etc....why the need for it if there are common directors for all? I'm more unhappy though that when talking the figures involved it now appears that the Football Club is in debt to the owners for a similar amount to the money they made from said private transaction, and that the proceeds of any land deal will go to pay that debt back to the owners. As Kelvin himself said, if this all went pop now, they wouldn't be too financially impacted.

It will take a more knowledgeable financial brain than mine to actually make out what has happened here.
A very interesting post GPC.
I'm beginning to understand the doubt now.
Thankyou for the explanation.
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« Reply #30658 on: December 05, 2021, 18:11:54 pm »

A very interesting post GPC.
I'm beginning to understand the doubt now.
Thankyou for the explanation.

Yes, a very good post by GPC and a lot of it does sound a bit odd to say the least.
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« Reply #30659 on: December 05, 2021, 21:13:17 pm »

Ok, so you accept that the shareholders (David Bower and Kelvin Thomas) received £6.68m for THEIR shares in the parent company of the football club, and then regained those shares by loaning £1.1m of the £6.68m back to the CLUB?

So DB and KT were £5.5m up on the deal, and since it went sour have continued to lend money to the club to keep it running, and it is that money that sits as a debt on the balance sheet of the club, yet if the club went to the wall then the owners "would not be affected financially" to any great extent..... it all adds up now eh?

You and your conspiracy mob are unbelievable.
They sold their shares in a company and got money for them.
The deal went sour so the shares were returned.
The £1.1 million lent to the company by the holding company is exactly that, a loan.
Subsequent loans have been made to keep the company running, or do you expect them to give the money to the company, if so why should they? Shareholder loans are everyday occurances and they stay on the books as loans until they are repaid, defaulted, or other shareholders have their holding diluted.
You might note that I have not mentioned the club, that's because it is nothing more than another company.
I know a lot of don't like it, but it is just the same as any other business and is bound by the same rules as any other business.
What about the missing money? I hear you cry.
There is no missing money(well not from this group of owners) and if you think that something illlegal has gone on then report it. It's time to put up or shut up.
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