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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1323350 times)
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« Reply #30660 on: December 05, 2021, 21:24:58 pm »

So I continue to read with decreasing interest (because the cycle of entrenched views never changes)

So my take in simple words (and I could do without the patronising response from some on here)

KT & DB may or may not have made some money on the Chinese deal but it seems like it or not nothing illegal, and nothing that obliged them to either reduce the personal debt of the club or invest in infrastructure - yes I would have liked that they did the former but if they didn't no amount of repetitive words is going to change that.

On the trust - I have no doubt their intention and hard work was motivated by what was best for the club but in my opinion they failed - (Before I get jumped on, failure is not the same as fault, which in many cases lies with others) - but they failed to engage constructively with KT (most possibly down to him) and they failed to influence the council (a view and a strategy I both endorsed and encouraged) - the council in my opinion only paid lip service to the trust's views and never enforced additional conditions on the land sale which would have benefited the club. The trust tried and failed but who else was fighting in our corner to get a better deal for the club?

I think the trust now have a role to unite the fan base - drop in some quarters (hopefully a minority) the somewhat arrogant view that "we know best and the majority of fans are stupid" - equally some of the social media players  who seem to be paid up critics of the trust just for the sake of it perhaps should take a more conciliatory tone.

I still believe that irrespective of owners a well structured bond scheme for ground and infrastructure improvement could make a massive difference - it seems a bit of a paradox that so much energy has been spent in a strategy aimed at a property speculator doing the right thing (BTW - its not going to happen!) rather than an innovative plan B that galvanises support from occasional supporters through to sizeable local business.

I'm now resigned to a future that delivers a mediocre East stand and likely change of ownership - as I've said many times the "golden opportunity" actually disappeared when the £10 million was stolen and far less to do with the current situation.

Football is unique in that doesn't follow normal rules - and I couldn't help rereading Random's lengthy and well researched albeit somewhat one sided powerpoint presentation to the council on all the clubs that are doing so much better than us - yes of course there are other example and infrastructure may have an influence on medium term future but on current standing Peterborough will be playing at the same level as us, as will Plymouth, Doncaster will be a league lower and Exeter will need to win a play off to play at the same level as us - funny old game isn't it!



Nice post Peter, it would be great if we could all put together (and I include the owners) for the good of NTFC.

Problem is any idea of growth, risk or development is generally poo poo'ed by KT or palmed off with " its a supporter initiative therefore they have to do".  

I agree the Trust have failed to connect better with the supporter base, the only time any traction is gained is when those supporters feel that the club is under threat.

Problem there is that most fans, rightly or wrongly, are not interested in the finer, more complicated decisions involved in running a football club.

If we are signing new players, it doesn't even matter if they are any good, then the vast majority are more than happy.

Only when it's too late do they start worrying and interested in what the Trust is going to do to save the club - AGAIN.

The Trust and quite a few fans don't want a mediocre East stand with only 200 extra seats - KT wants this deal so he can get out of town asap and is not interested in anything other than a basic short term deal. The council are somewhere in-between.

Please tell us how we get a deal everyone is happy with?    

I do have one, Simple, a share of the land deal profits between the council, the owners and the football club. No East stand development (for now)-

The lease of the football club LAND and stadium is signed to a new entity made up of NTFC staff, supporters and advisors. The share of the land sale goes into this entity who with proper fan consultation, decide how to improve the stadium for the medium and long term benefit of the club.

The football club itself can still be owned and run by KT or whoever.

IF WE WANT REGULAR L1 FOOTBALL WE HAVE TO IMPROVE THE FACILITIES AND THE CAPACITY. It is the clear defining fact in the long term. The average capacity jumps up 50% with every league you move up, yes there are exceptions at both ends but it cannot be denied. Look at Bournemouth, even in the Prem it is important

KT has categorically said that there is no case to improve the capacity of the stadium or it's facilities. (but wants to develop the East stand as it is linked by the council to them getting a massive profit land deal -  funny that )
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« Reply #30661 on: December 05, 2021, 21:30:19 pm »

You and your conspiracy mob are unbelievable.
They sold their shares in a company and got money for them.
The deal went sour so the shares were returned.
The £1.1 million lent to the company by the holding company is exactly that, a loan.
Subsequent loans have been made to keep the company running, or do you expect them to give the money to the company, if so why should they? Shareholder loans are everyday occurances and they stay on the books as loans until they are repaid, defaulted, or other shareholders have their holding diluted.
You might note that I have not mentioned the club, that's because it is nothing more than another company.
I know a lot of don't like it, but it is just the same as any other business and is bound by the same rules as any other business.
What about the missing money? I hear you cry.
There is no missing money(well not from this group of owners) and if you think that something illlegal has gone on then report it. It's time to put up or shut up.

No conspiracy here Singcobb, most of it has been documented and proven.

Your only comment or concern is that football is like any other business and only wrong if illegal ?

May I politely ask, when was the last time you were at Sixfields?   I ask as it is very interesting to me that the amount of people on these forums, don't even live in Northamptonshire. Indeed for balance quite a few of the Trust board members don't either, so just wondering why the more vocal don't seem to live local. Perhaps being a distance away fires up more passion for their football club?
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« Reply #30662 on: December 05, 2021, 21:52:49 pm »

You and your conspiracy mob are unbelievable.
They sold their shares in a company and got money for them.
The deal went sour so the shares were returned.
The £1.1 million lent to the company by the holding company is exactly that, a loan.
Subsequent loans have been made to keep the company running, or do you expect them to give the money to the company, if so why should they? Shareholder loans are everyday occurances and they stay on the books as loans until they are repaid, defaulted, or other shareholders have their holding diluted.
You might note that I have not mentioned the club, that's because it is nothing more than another company.
I know a lot of don't like it, but it is just the same as any other business and is bound by the same rules as any other business.
What about the missing money? I hear you cry.
There is no missing money(well not from this group of owners) and if you think that something illlegal has gone on then report it. It's time to put up or shut up.
This Ďcompanyí has an additional dimension, The fansÖ. A known fact when KT/DB acquired their shares. People who have supported and contributed to the viability of the company for a lot longer than the current owners, as fans we have the right to question the lack of transparency and uneven profiteering.
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« Reply #30663 on: December 05, 2021, 22:02:14 pm »

This Ďcompanyí has an additional dimension, The fansÖ. A known fact when KT/DB acquired their shares. People who have supported and contributed to the viability of the company for a lot longer than the current owners, as fans we have the right to question the lack of transparency and uneven profiteering.


Sorry, Manny, but for fans read "customers", because they is all we are - dedicated and enthusiastic customers. As much as it might rankle some people, we have no more rights than someone who has shopped at Tesco every week for the last 40 years. Mind you, I suspect at certain points in our history the club have trodden a fine line with the rights we do have - some of the fodder served up as "football" must have come pretty close to breaching the trade descriptions act... Grin
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« Reply #30664 on: December 05, 2021, 22:03:10 pm »

Iím still looking forward to getting it all sorted. Iíll let the kids keep crying over spilt milk. 😢😢😢😢

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« Reply #30665 on: December 06, 2021, 00:30:08 am »

Nice post Peter, it would be great if we could all put together (and I include the owners) for the good of NTFC.  

I agree the Trust have failed to connect better with the supporter base

If we are signing new players, it doesn't even matter if they are any good

No East stand development (for now)

The football club itself can still be owned and run by KT or whoever.

Nice one I appreciate your honesty.
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« Reply #30666 on: December 06, 2021, 02:12:25 am »

Nice post MC, depends how you define serious wrongdoing.

For myself and I expect others, it is about the morals and trust. Now KT might be getting a harder time from us because he follows on from DC, but there is a very similar pattern, today ask people how many of them trust DC? Asked them did they trust him 6 months before he left?

The Chinese deal, which ever way you look at, is questionable at best, especially given that these people came from nowhere.

If they were bona-fide businessmen with a long history then I expect it would have played out very differently,

If the figures had been say £3m or £4m, you might think, ok KT got a great price for 18 months work.

But £6.68m for a club struggling at the bottom of L1, with no assets or players, especially when the owners paid only £1 and £168k debt only 18 months earlier, for a club that the owners said was not worth developing, £6.68m REALLY?

Then there is this strange loan by the previous owners to the new owners - (the chinese owner 100% of the club then) borrow £1.1m from KT / DB (incidentally a similar amount that they received KT / DB each received privately)

And stranger still they have about 14 days to repay it.

And then stranger still, that £1.1m loan is secured by £6.68m value of shares in the company.

They don't pay so KT/DB call in their security and re-acquire the shares

Yes all transactions "Legal" although given that you are questioned and recorded transactions of £10k for money laundering, who knows.

Other trust (not The Trust) issues regarding KT intentions and actions (for me) that he has no real intentions to move our club forward include:

The announcement of £4m "ringfenced" we will get the East stand done -  6 years and still nothing - expect some basic plans and CGI's

The behind the back of the council deal to get the 22 acres of land

The appointing of a manager who had not achieved promotion in 20 years

The debt loaded onto the club with little asset / balance sheet gains

The debt now at a very similar level to the chinese deal

That around the ground and club there have been very little changes despite around £37m flowing through the hands of the owners. Look around £37m !!!!!!  £37m, luck if the Carr's bar has had £3,700 spent on it in 6 years.

And all of this at a club that has 100 year history, is lucky to have space around it's stadium, is centrally located, with excellent access, with no major club around us, with a local population of 300k. Compare that to Forest Green Rovers or Accrington or Rotherham.

You really think we are lucky to have owners that we do?  You really trust them ?  Expect if you are happy just to stay the same and have L2 football, in a poor ground, with poor facilities then great, you have what you want. I and others want more





Morning Derek, I know we keep going round in circles but the same point needs to be emphasised. You say you and others want more but how exactly are you going to get it. The current owners move on, fine. They either develop the stand, fine, or walk without doing so, fine. The club currently loses around 1 million per season and the division 2 average is £800k. What is the plan to increase the revenue to address that short fall and provide funding to take us to the next level? I ask this not to be clever or to score cheap points of debate. This is a very real problem that will need addressing, no matter what side of the fence you are on. The current owners will leave no matter what us supporters want and the clock is ticking. If we collectively want league 1 football then the Deloitte figures show an average loss per club of 2 million. I understand itís a generalisation but for us that means a shortfall of 75k a week or so given a 6 month season. Thatís obviously back of a fag packet sums but that is roughly the enormity of the task we are facing. On top of that you can probably add any additional redevelopment costs. When anyone insists on what they want of the club then it deserves a credible plan being put forward to get it. My view is there has been entirely too much focus on what people want and donít want, and very little in the way of how to achieve it. I donít mean that to be as critical as it sounds but we may have a real problem coming and I canít help worrying we are stumbling into it blind fold. There are a number of possible scenarios on the horizon. They include the owners leaving and the start of a great new future, or conversely the start of the beginning of the end. Do not believe it will necessarily be the former on faith alone. Whatís the plan chaps or are we going to continue trading punches whilst Sixfields burns.
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« Reply #30667 on: December 06, 2021, 06:41:13 am »

Morning Derek, I know we keep going round in circles but the same point needs to be emphasised. You say you and others want more but how exactly are you going to get it. The current owners move on, fine. They either develop the stand, fine, or walk without doing so, fine. The club currently loses around 1 million per season and the division 2 average is £800k. What is the plan to increase the revenue to address that short fall and provide funding to take us to the next level? I ask this not to be clever or to score cheap points of debate. This is a very real problem that will need addressing, no matter what side of the fence you are on. The current owners will leave no matter what us supporters want and the clock is ticking. If we collectively want league 1 football then the Deloitte figures show an average loss per club of 2 million. I understand itís a generalisation but for us that means a shortfall of 75k a week or so given a 6 month season. Thatís obviously back of a fag packet sums but that is roughly the enormity of the task we are facing. On top of that you can probably add any additional redevelopment costs. When anyone insists on what they want of the club then it deserves a credible plan being put forward to get it. My view is there has been entirely too much focus on what people want and donít want, and very little in the way of how to achieve it. I donít mean that to be as critical as it sounds but we may have a real problem coming and I canít help worrying we are stumbling into it blind fold. There are a number of possible scenarios on the horizon. They include the owners leaving and the start of a great new future, or conversely the start of the beginning of the end. Do not believe it will necessarily be the former on faith alone. Whatís the plan chaps or are we going to continue trading punches whilst Sixfields burns.


Very well said.
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« Reply #30668 on: December 06, 2021, 09:52:24 am »

Morning Derek, I know we keep going round in circles but the same point needs to be emphasised. You say you and others want more but how exactly are you going to get it. The current owners move on, fine. They either develop the stand, fine, or walk without doing so, fine. The club currently loses around 1 million per season and the division 2 average is £800k. What is the plan to increase the revenue to address that short fall and provide funding to take us to the next level? I ask this not to be clever or to score cheap points of debate. This is a very real problem that will need addressing, no matter what side of the fence you are on. The current owners will leave no matter what us supporters want and the clock is ticking. If we collectively want league 1 football then the Deloitte figures show an average loss per club of 2 million. I understand itís a generalisation but for us that means a shortfall of 75k a week or so given a 6 month season. Thatís obviously back of a fag packet sums but that is roughly the enormity of the task we are facing. On top of that you can probably add any additional redevelopment costs. When anyone insists on what they want of the club then it deserves a credible plan being put forward to get it. My view is there has been entirely too much focus on what people want and donít want, and very little in the way of how to achieve it. I donít mean that to be as critical as it sounds but we may have a real problem coming and I canít help worrying we are stumbling into it blind fold. There are a number of possible scenarios on the horizon. They include the owners leaving and the start of a great new future, or conversely the start of the beginning of the end. Do not believe it will necessarily be the former on faith alone. Whatís the plan chaps or are we going to continue trading punches whilst Sixfields burns.

Firstly you need a breakdown of the £1m losses, Iím pretty sure there are savings to be made and opportunity to increase revenue if an owner was interested.
As Iíve said many times before whoever took over would need a business plan on how to achieve their goals, it all starts by increasing turnover and reducing costs, their are many consultants who can help with the business plan.
The point is KT and DB WILL leave as soon as they get the land deal done so itís going to happen.
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« Reply #30669 on: December 06, 2021, 10:04:06 am »

Grate thing about this topic is its full of nuts.
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« Reply #30670 on: December 06, 2021, 10:27:32 am »

Morning Derek, I know we keep going round in circles but the same point needs to be emphasised. You say you and others want more but how exactly are you going to get it. The current owners move on, fine. They either develop the stand, fine, or walk without doing so, fine. The club currently loses around 1 million per season and the division 2 average is £800k. What is the plan to increase the revenue to address that short fall and provide funding to take us to the next level? I ask this not to be clever or to score cheap points of debate. This is a very real problem that will need addressing, no matter what side of the fence you are on. The current owners will leave no matter what us supporters want and the clock is ticking. If we collectively want league 1 football then the Deloitte figures show an average loss per club of 2 million. I understand itís a generalisation but for us that means a shortfall of 75k a week or so given a 6 month season. Thatís obviously back of a fag packet sums but that is roughly the enormity of the task we are facing. On top of that you can probably add any additional redevelopment costs. When anyone insists on what they want of the club then it deserves a credible plan being put forward to get it. My view is there has been entirely too much focus on what people want and donít want, and very little in the way of how to achieve it. I donít mean that to be as critical as it sounds but we may have a real problem coming and I canít help worrying we are stumbling into it blind fold. There are a number of possible scenarios on the horizon. They include the owners leaving and the start of a great new future, or conversely the start of the beginning of the end. Do not believe it will necessarily be the former on faith alone. Whatís the plan chaps or are we going to continue trading punches whilst Sixfields burns.


The local consortium who missed out before can step in. It'll be fine.
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« Reply #30671 on: December 06, 2021, 11:13:55 am »

Firstly you need a breakdown of the £1m losses, Iím pretty sure there are savings to be made and opportunity to increase revenue if an owner was interested.
As Iíve said many times before whoever took over would need a business plan on how to achieve their goals, it all starts by increasing turnover and reducing costs, their are many consultants who can help with the business plan.
The point is KT and DB WILL leave as soon as they get the land deal done so itís going to happen.
NTFC had a turnover of £5.37M in 2020 with a staffing cost of £3.96M, the current playing budget is in the region of £1.8M, so where is the other £2.1M going ? I really struggle with this, the shop is outsourced but sells the tickets midweek. I counted 19 people on the "Who's who" on the web page, who will be directly employed by NTFC and I know that their are quite a few others on match days, but that is still a lot of money for non playing staff. Our staff bill is more than Newport County's turnover but they still make a profit  Huh?
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« Reply #30672 on: December 06, 2021, 11:19:06 am »

Thanks for the response - I think it's really important in discussion people maintain respect even if views differ - more from a point of discussion I've answered a couple of points you raised


Problem there is that most fans, rightly or wrongly, are not interested in the finer, more complicated decisions involved in running a football club. Niether right or wrong but the reality is for most fans football is an escape from the pressures of real life and whilst of course want the best for their club have very little real interest in the "running" of the club

If we are signing new players, it doesn't even matter if they are any good, then the vast majority are more than happy.Short term maybe but I think the majority of fans can spot a good versus bad buy pretty quickly

Only when it's too late do they start worrying and interested in what the Trust is going to do to save the club - AGAIN.True although up to now almost too late

The Trust and quite a few fans don't want a mediocre East stand with only 200 extra seats - KT wants this deal so he can get out of town asap and is not interested in anything other than a basic short term deal. The council are somewhere in-between.I think you are being kind to the council - there might be an odd platitude but I see them firmly of the view minimum conditions applied and get the deal done

Please tell us how we get a deal everyone is happy with? Unfortunately I think such a scenario doesn't exist - for years you have been saying KT is only interested in the profits from the land sale (and I would tend to agree that's his primary objective) - so why would he change his objectives now particularly as the council has gone soft on him re conditions   


Just a thought going through my head on the council's approach to this - when the club secured the original leases from the council it was of course an opportunity for the benefit of the club and I'm sure that was the intent of the arrangements although as always details were complex and attached covenants not always clear - but by any definition this was essentially a gift by the council tax payers of the town - with years of inaction and of course the disappearance of the £10 million many would not blame the council for thinking they have done enough for the club. If the current owner is able to present his case (and I'm not saying this is the case) as having made substantial investment to save and then keep the club afloat for 6 years their view may well be we have done enough for the club but we will stipulate the mediocre stand is built, let the businessman recover his investment, have the land utilised and draw a line under the whole story which has never made the council appear in a good light.
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« Reply #30673 on: December 06, 2021, 12:15:45 pm »

NTFC had a turnover of £5.37M in 2020 with a staffing cost of £3.96M, the current playing budget is in the region of £1.8M, so where is the other £2.1M going ? I really struggle with this, the shop is outsourced but sells the tickets midweek. I counted 19 people on the "Who's who" on the web page, who will be directly employed by NTFC and I know that their are quite a few others on match days, but that is still a lot of money for non playing staff. Our staff bill is more than Newport County's turnover but they still make a profit  Huh?

What was the playing staff actual cost for 2020 (the year you quote turnover of £5.37 million). Don't we know that the current budget "in the region of £1.8 million" is a cut from previous seasons?

If you can provide that I'll see if I can provide some comparisons with other League 2 clubs.
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« Reply #30674 on: December 06, 2021, 12:57:25 pm »

Iím still looking forward to getting it all sorted. Iíll let the kids keep crying over spilt milk. 😢😢😢😢


And it's all gone quiet over there😂😂
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« Reply #30675 on: December 06, 2021, 13:00:00 pm »

Iím still looking forward to getting it all sorted. Iíll let the kids keep crying over spilt milk. 😢😢😢😢


Donít hold your breath, Iíll believe it when I see it. 😂
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« Reply #30676 on: December 06, 2021, 13:24:15 pm »

Interesting program on BBC tonight Panorama ďFollow the MoneyĒ itís setting is care homes but could equally apply to football clubs.
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« Reply #30677 on: December 06, 2021, 13:42:57 pm »

What was the playing staff actual cost for 2020 (the year you quote turnover of £5.37 million). Don't we know that the current budget "in the region of £1.8 million" is a cut from previous seasons?

If you can provide that I'll see if I can provide some comparisons with other League 2 clubs.
The figure I quote has come "From the horses mouth" via someone I trust. I do know that a few years ago, probably 4 years ago, the playing budget was in the region of £1.2M , so I'd be surprised if it was cut to £1.8M from one year ago.
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« Reply #30678 on: December 06, 2021, 18:37:07 pm »

Interesting program on BBC tonight Panorama ďFollow the MoneyĒ itís setting is care homes but could equally apply to football clubs.

Believe meÖ Football has nothing on the care sector. A country mile away.
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« Reply #30679 on: December 06, 2021, 18:43:54 pm »

In normal circumstances, the club will lose around 500k pa if it budgets to be trying to get promoted from this division or have a reasonable chance of staying up in the 3rd tier. Obviously that will be lower if we cash in on a player, have a decent cup run etc.

I guess around half of the 'debt' was accrued because the budget was increased massively around the time of the Chinese involvement. Of course, that money didn't materialise so the owners we have had to step back in and fund the losses. Then the covid season would have added more pressures...

The 'issue' with the debt is that it is so high because of the Chinese saga. Assuming money was made from the sale of the club, and I have no reason to not believe that was the case, then I guess it comes down to whether or not you believe that ethically is it right or wrong. To be honest, I don't know enough 'detail' to make that judgement (I don't think anybody really does) but even if I did I would probably be fairly blaze about it simply because its a business deal and its got little to do with me. Would I have rather the (6million plus) have been pumped back into the clubs coffers and spent on a new stand/players etc? Yeah, of course! Im sure we all would. Would I rather the owners write off the losses each year instead of lumping more debt via loans? Yeah, again of course I would. Would I like us to have owners who are here for the fun, passion and motivation to get us up the leagues whilst losing millions of their own cash? Yep, too bloody right I would!!

However, and being totally honest. If I ever make enough cash to buy the Cobblers (highly unlikely!!  Grin) , knowing the little bit about tax etc that I do (I run my own business), my 'investment' would be in the form of loans. Simply because its considerably more tax efficient. That's why most clubs are in massive debt.

I think we as fans, are most often a bit to idealistic. We could propel up the leagues if we had a rich owner, but I will never be convinced that we could do it 'organically'. I reckon it would cost someone a minimum of 30million quid to take us to the next level (top end league1/bottom end championship) and be there competing financially with those types of clubs. The likes of Hull, Barnsley. I wouldn't say Sunderland or Ipswich because clearly they are boxing below their weight. On the flip side, Luton are boxing way above their weight (but I think are losing millions p.a doing so).

Bottom end championship club = circa 15million minimum wage bill. 8 times roughly ours. And about 9million more than our turnover. Think about how much it would cost to put in infrastructure and a team on the field that could generate that type of wedge. And that would only move us up around 24 places in the football league. Unless we had a one off season, like Wycombe did or Barnsley did last season (when they nearly made it to the prem).

We could go round and round in circles here and I think we will!
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