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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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« Reply #34820 on: August 21, 2022, 16:38:59 pm »

I know it’s not the most palatable answer. But I would imagine simply because they could. I agree that suggests that they could renege on completing the East stand. But at this point only they know if that’s even a consideration. But I would still totally point the finger at the council for getting caught on the hop yet again..
I agree with what you say about the council, so now is the time for all supporters to get together and ask CDNL (KT), "Are you going to put in writing that you will complete the East stand" Like I said before, if they are going to do it, all well and good, and it should not be a problem to confirm this IN WRITING
Draw your own conclusions if they won't do this !
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« Reply #34821 on: August 21, 2022, 16:51:34 pm »

I know it’s not the most palatable answer. But I would imagine simply because they could. I agree that suggests that they could renege on completing the East stand. But at this point only they know if that’s even a consideration. But I would still totally point the finger at the council for getting caught on the hop yet again..

I don't think for one minute that the Council have "been caught on the hop"....they are, as i've already said, equally as complicit as any other party in this deal.

It definitely isn't the most palatable answer, but unfortunately the most realistic.

What gets me is that KT came along in 2015, "said" that he would finish the stand but hasn't done so, but its alright because it was only verbally said and never mentioned in any legally binding contract. Here we are in 2022 with the requirement to complete the stand removed from any land deal, he still "says" that he'll do it, and we are just supposed to accept that?

The Council backstop is transferrable, so if CDNL get the deal, sell the land, don't build the stand and sell the club, the new owners will still be bound by the same part of the land deal which says that land belonging to THE CLUB can be taken back by the Council for a quid!

But then again, what will be will be, and there isn't much anyone can do about it I guess?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2022, 16:54:46 pm by GrangeParkCobbler » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #34822 on: August 21, 2022, 17:00:22 pm »

I don't think for one minute that the Council have "been caught on the hop"....they are, as i've already said, equally as complicit as any other party in this deal.

It definitely isn't the most answer, but unfortunately the most realistic.

What gets me is that KT came along in 2015, "said" that he would finish the stand but hasn't done so, but its alright because it was only verbally said and never mentioned in any legally binding contract. Here we are in 2022 with the requirement to complete the stand removed from any land deal, he still "says" that he'll do it, and we are just supposed to accept that?

The Council backstop is transferrable, so if CDNL get the deal, sell the land, don't build the stand and sell the club, the new owners will still be bound by the same part of the land deal which says that land belonging to THE CLUB can be taken back by the Council for a quid!

But then again, what will be will be, and there isn't much anyone can do about it I guess?
No wonder Cilldara called for a judicial review it looks very uncomfortable from a compliance point of view.
Why would an asset’s owner remove a clause that safeguarded the completion of part of their own assets, it doesn’t make sense whatsoever.
All on the word of someone who has already fûcked them over for the leases back in 2015, seriously you couldn’t make this shįt up.
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« Reply #34823 on: August 21, 2022, 17:17:41 pm »

Talking of the Council, what we've got to remember here is that we have gone from.....

"Build/finish the stand and then we'll talk about the land".....

to

"We'll sell you the land on the condition that you guarantee that you will build/finish the stand"......

to

"We'll sell you the land, you're not legally obliged to do so but we'll put a weak clawback in just in case you don't build/finish the stand"
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« Reply #34824 on: August 21, 2022, 17:25:34 pm »


All on the word of someone who has already fûcked them over for the leases back in 2015, seriously you couldn’t make this shįt up.

Did they though? Surely if the council had been serious about holding anyone to their word, they would have simply insisted on seeing the much fabled sum of money ring fenced and tied up in a legal framework of build delivery. With timeframes. After all, It’s their property.

I think it’s as simple as them just not caring what happens with it. As long as “anyone” is happy to look after it on a daily basis. And if it all goes bust, so be it.

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« Reply #34825 on: August 21, 2022, 17:57:54 pm »

The talk is of the council in general as though decisions are made by many people

It isn't. There are about 3/4 people driving this

The main one was seen in Dubai at the same time as certain others, at a time just before certain changes were announced

Draw you own conclusions

Nothing but the C word comes to mind

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« Reply #34826 on: August 21, 2022, 18:34:12 pm »

I agree with what you say about the council, so now is the time for all supporters to get together and ask CDNL (KT), "Are you going to put in writing that you will complete the East stand" Like I said before, if they are going to do it, all well and good, and it should not be a problem to confirm this IN WRITING
Draw your own conclusions if they won't do this !
Rog surely you’ve had direct conversations with either Tom or the chairman through your travel work?
Are you saying you’ve not spoken to them?
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« Reply #34827 on: August 21, 2022, 18:49:41 pm »

Rog surely you’ve had direct conversations with either Tom or the chairman through your travel work?
Are you saying you’ve not spoken to them?
Yes I've spoken to Tom and the Chairman in recent months, nothing to do with Travel or the Trust.
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« Reply #34828 on: August 21, 2022, 20:28:03 pm »

Thanks for that Grange. So how many co-opted members does that mean now? 

It’s not a trick question. I genuinely don’t want to use the info for anything sinister, you have my word on that. Not even if it isn’t accurate to the model rules. It is purely to understand who is actually appointing the board. Is it the members, or the board members. That is something that does matter in my opinion.

Can you confirm after a response from the Trust Chair, there are eight elected Directors/Board Members and one co-opt.

Andy Roberts (Chair)
Bob Souster (Vice Chair)
Bob Clarke (Treasurer)
Keith Buckby
Stefan Krywawych
Simon Miller
Dave Rawlings
Ian Atkins

Derek Krajewski (Co-opt)
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« Reply #34829 on: August 21, 2022, 21:01:46 pm »

Can you confirm after a response from the Trust Chair, there are eight elected Directors/Board Members and one co-opt.

Andy Roberts (Chair)
Bob Souster (Vice Chair)
Bob Clarke (Treasurer)
Keith Buckby
Stefan Krywawych
Simon Miller
Dave Rawlings
Ian Atkins

Derek Krajewski (Co-opt)

Thank you very much…
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« Reply #34830 on: August 21, 2022, 21:03:05 pm »

Talking of the Council, what we've got to remember here is that we have gone from.....

"Build/finish the stand and then we'll talk about the land".....

to

"We'll sell you the land on the condition that you guarantee that you will build/finish the stand"......

to

"We'll sell you the land, you're not legally obliged to do so but we'll put a weak clawback in just in case you don't build/finish the stand"

 Grin Grin

They say that the truth is stranger than fiction. 😀
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« Reply #34831 on: August 21, 2022, 21:55:35 pm »

The talk is of the council in general as though decisions are made by many people

It isn't. There are about 3/4 people driving this

The main one was seen in Dubai at the same time as certain others, at a time just before certain changes were announced

Draw you own conclusions

Nothing but the C word comes to mind


what a first post that was.
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« Reply #34832 on: August 21, 2022, 22:35:37 pm »

only simpletons refer to a game 25 years ago as some sort of example of what could be.

On good day you would give Einstein a headache Roll Eyes
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« Reply #34833 on: August 22, 2022, 06:34:41 am »

On good day you would give Einstein a headache Roll Eyes

You’re safe then  Tongue
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« Reply #34834 on: August 22, 2022, 07:22:10 am »

Did they though? Surely if the council had been serious about holding anyone to their word, they would have simply insisted on seeing the much fabled sum of money ring fenced and tied up in a legal framework of build delivery. With timeframes. After all, It’s their property.

I think it’s as simple as them just not caring what happens with it. As long as “anyone” is happy to look after it on a daily basis. And if it all goes bust, so be it.


That would be the mentality of any normal business with even a modicum of business intellect, I’m led to believe that they did see the fabled £4m ring fenced money but trusted KT and DB to deliver, hence why I can’t believe that they trust them now.
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« Reply #34835 on: August 22, 2022, 07:49:47 am »

That would be the mentality of any normal business with even a modicum of business intellect, I’m led to believe that they did see the fabled £4m ring fenced money but trusted KT and DB to deliver, hence why I can’t believe that they trust them now.

If anyone thinks this is appalling by the council, it is minor compared to most of the things they preside over.

I can completely understand the frustration and the criticism that the movement from the original assurances brings. But pressure has to be bought on both the council and the club to deliver on the present.
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« Reply #34836 on: August 22, 2022, 09:14:10 am »

All seems straight forward to me. The completion clause is not in there because the owners probably need at best the flexibility to re-evaluate the condition, or at worst are no longer prepared to guarantee or even honour it.

On the interview I heard and recently posted, it sounded to me like the owners total budget regarding the plan for NTFC was circa £4 million. I also don't think they intended to stick around anywhere near as long as this either. The problem is most of the commentary on here is heavy with emotional bias, for the people that matter this is mainly a financial decision. That's never a great position to negotiate from and invariably leads to poor and misguided decision making.

When the club was taken over Chris Wilder was at the helm. The owners probably hoped to invest a couple of million in the squad, progress up the league, tart up the East Stand a bit, make a killing on the land and move the club on at a tidy profit. As with some investments things clearly didn't go according to plan, Chris moved on, we came straight back down following promotion and there were considerable delays over the land. Now the owners have been here far longer than intended, according to the tax returns have pumped in double the capital they indicated initially at double the timescale. In essence they have blown the budget and then some. On top of that they have been forced to pay more for the land and the ACV situation has added more time and as a consequence money onto the ever growing pile of losses. All whist languishing in Division 2 under a succession of poorly recruited managers (current incumbent excluded obviously). Despite this to the owners credit they have continued to bankroll the efforts on the pitch and I think this is truly commendable given how this has played out and the type of owners they are. Most importantly of all they have not sought outside financial support, which despite the constant insinuations pretty much protects the club from uncontrollable decision making from an external source. This is clearly the main focus for any budget and I suspect any plans for the stand are fairly low down the to do list and may indeed be no longer even on it?

However, the problem with the non benefactor type of owner is that the priority is ultimately always the eventual financial return. As a result, the reality is that because of this some are hell bent on having a fight with them that they can never win. Even if they did, there is absolutely nothing to stop a clone of the current owners or worse turning up next. The sensible thing to do would be to unify the various supporters trusts nationally and engage with the real culprits who allow this type of ownership in the first place i.e the EFL. Whilst this may be fairly futile and time consuming, it's not as much so as picking a fight with the owners over 4 or 5 years and ostracising yourself from this whole process. The smart thing to do would have been to take some of this on the chin and work with the owners to get the best possible outcome, especially when you are relatively powerless. You almost certainly won't get anywhere near what you would like but at least may win a few concessions and retain as much influence as possible. But no, it has turned into a stand up unwinnable fight where all that has been achieved is to add further delays and costs, reducing any remaining budget for the stand still further. Perhaps this is ultimately to zero and destroying any working relationship with both the club and the council in the process, perhaps indefinitely

This is genuinely not a criticism but like it or not the board of the Trust and its members are pretty much an irrelevance in this matter at the moment, and they somehow have to try and get a chip back into the game. That definitely means an overhaul in approach and and probably personnel to some degree. Once the current owners move on, the next ones through the door will undoubtably look at all this and decide whether they want to work with a Trust Board who has alienated both the council and the owners and been as obstructive as possible, no matter if justified morally.

A decision needs to be made whether it's more important to believe you retain the moral high ground at all costs or be effective and have influence? Whenever you enter a dispute there are only 3 questions you need to ask yourself, what is the objective, is it reasonably attainable and what is the correct strategy? Looking at all this with hindsight this has been mishandled from all sides on countless occasions and that really is a fact. You might not like it, but in my eyes that's exactly how it is currently, and it apparently ain't changing anytime soon.
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« Reply #34837 on: August 22, 2022, 09:28:42 am »



This is genuinely not a criticism but like it or not the board of the Trust and its members are pretty much an irrelevance in this matter at the moment, and they somehow have to try and get a chip back into the game. That definitely means an overhaul in approach and and probably personnel to some degree. Once the current owners move on, the next ones through the door will undoubtably look at all this and decide whether they want to work with a Trust Board who has alienated both the council and the owners and been as obstructive as possible, no matter if justified morally.

.
There are quite a few things I would argue with you about your post Dale, but the main one is the last line above. Can you point out when and how the Trust have been obstructive with the owners in their six years of not completing the East Stand ?
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« Reply #34838 on: August 22, 2022, 09:33:13 am »

I rarely read posts that long. But as posts go, Melbourne's does it for me. Of course some of it is biased by his own thoughts. But, all of our posts are like that. It’s a very fair summary.

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« Reply #34839 on: August 22, 2022, 09:36:37 am »

Yes I've spoken to Tom and the Chairman in recent months, nothing to do with Travel or the Trust.
Could you put in writing what was discussed, what was agreed, the actions and the results so far please.
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