guest47
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And be in the need of soaking up alcohol.
Maybe it is a crowd control thing. You wouldn't want an Oxford fan etc hanging around in the queue in front of you giving it the bigun after they have just beaten us 0-3. It might cause a little trouble.
That would never happen. I would suggest practically every other club's vans sell food after the game and sometimes at far more contentious areas. I'm just surprised they don't take the opportunity.
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The 12th Marquis of Sixfields
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Capital letters and using excessive question exclamation marks mark you out as a mad conspiracy theorist. In future I'd write normally if I were you. If these points you make are true and serious then they will create their own exclamations. I take it Simon Patnicks phone number in that is office and not home?
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The Hotelend Grand National Sweepstake Champion 2023
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ATAXPAYER
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Marquis, you may well be correct about my use of capital letters and indeed excessive exclamations.
What I will say about the actual contents of the blog is that it is entirely factual and each document used has been validated. The council chose to ignore my approach, indeed censoring what council lies received. There is a massive difference between a conspiracy and conspiancy theory. This show without any doubt a conspiracy to cover their own ar*** at the Guildhall.
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Manwork04
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I'll give him a ring and find out, there's a few things I'd like to say to him
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Rule Britannia
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MCHammer
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Boring day at work so I actually spent a while reading your documents. I have questions/comments. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to feel everything would have worked out fine if the council had just signed the land over to County Developments as per the contract. A development would have happened funds would have been raised, loans paid off everyone's a winner. In fact even now you seem to suggest the council should just find a developer sell the land pay off the loans but your other key message seems to be that the council forget about the loan funds that seem to have disappeared into Cardoza, Patnicks and Grossmans back pocket. I agree with the point about the council developing the land but why should they not ALSO legally chase the missing/stolen funds. Reading the correspondence it seems perfectly clear that the council started to have concerns regarding County Developments and their ability to safely and correctly carry out the development. Wonder why that could of been. Maybe loan payments being missed. Money dissapearing. A shell stand that builders had stopped working on. The removal of two of the key directors. I could list many more factors. Seems to me the council did the taxpayer a MASSIVE favour by not signing over the land and releasing it to County. Imagine how much more funds could have gone missing!!! They also correctly refused to release any of the hotel loan funding to allow the east stand building to continue. Again well done them else where would that have gone? To the builders? Yeah right! Couple of other things though I have loads more. What's your motivation in bringing this to light. Personal grudge, genuine taxpayer concern. Maybe you are trying to do the right thing and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However what about the motivation of your informant. Are they a concerned tax payer.....course not. It's obvious from the documents and redactions that it's Cardoza himself or someone very closely linked. If so do you believe they are motivated by the truth and doing what's right for the tax payer? You are either being used or part of Cardozas crew. Finally your redactions. You missed a Dear David by the way. The redactions only serve to weaken your evidence. If this person is so concerned about doing the right thing why remain hidden. What have they got to lose. You seem to have acted completely one sided in red acting the people you want to protect but showing little or no respect for the others involved despite most simply acting in accordance with their roles. You have also redacted content and not just names which raises further concerns of bias and hidden agendas. If your source is so willing to supply all this crucial information perhaps you should ask him for the email trails between Cardoza, Grossmans and Patnick to explain where all the loans funds were spent. But of course that information won't suit the agenda. I have many other questions. One final questions out of curiosity. What was Barry Stonhills role in the development process? I see him listed as the contact for the Persimmon Homes bid and would take a guess he possibly was the redacted name on the early correspondence with James Whiting?
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Gibbo
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It's Hammer time...nice one MC
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everbrite
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It's Hammer time...nice one MC
Me too - looks like ATAXPAYER has taken on more he can handle with MCH!
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2020 Grand National S/S 3rd Place
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ATAXPAYER
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MC, you raise some very good points and I shall now give you my take on those you raise.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to feel everything would have worked out fine if the council had just signed the land over to County Developments as per the contract. A development would have happened funds would have been raised, loans paid off everyone's a winner. My view is not what is important here, I believe what is important however is the fact that the council had the option to handle things differently. They are making big claims about the public purse needs to be protected. Of this there is no dispute from me. However at the time of the dialogue between the council and Cardozas solicitor regarding the section 106 there were no allegations that are today being investigated. The offers were real and substantial and would have seen our money back with the public purse much sooner than the agreements allowed for. If there were wrongdoing of some sort then they should have called the relevant authorities into investigate much sooner. My point here is that there is no doubt in my mind that the actions of senior personnel at the council added to the issues our club found itself in. Meaning they are culpable.
In fact even now you seem to suggest the council should just find a developer sell the land pay off the loans but your other key message seems to be that the council forget about the loan funds that seem to have disappeared into Cardoza, Patnicks and Grossmans back pocket.
MC - This was a secured loan, against the land at Sixfields. According to the loan document, an event of default would have caused the land to be reclaimed by the council. This includes the more valuable land the HCA put into the deal. Now correct me if I am wrong, when a secured loan goes bad the lender takes back the security (The Land in this case) sells it and goes after the borrower for any shortfall. Same as if a house gets repossessed for non payment of a mortgage. So against this secured loan, our Council have sat on an asset worth many millions of pounds and continued to pay interest from our hard earned money to the public works loan board. I cannot believe you think this is ok. It quite simply is not. It is negligent!! As for any shortfall, they should then go after the borrower for this. However because this is our club, there must be something in the agreement with KT and Cardoza that allows the council to go after cardoza directly and not the club. No doubt something under the warranties section. The disappearing money should be chased by the relevant authorities, probably the police, if there is enough evidence of criminal wrongdoing.
I agree with the point about the council developing the land but why should they not ALSO legally chase the missing/stolen funds.
As shown above, they have to follow the legal agreement that both parties signed up to. This has an element of recourse as a secured loan facility. As for criminality, we need to leave that to the police and not our Borough Council who have been proven not to know their ar** from their elbows!
Reading the correspondence it seems perfectly clear that the council started to have concerns regarding County Developments and their ability to safely and correctly carry out the development. Wonder why that could of been. Maybe loan payments being missed. Money dissapearing. A shell stand that builders had stopped working on. The removal of two of the key directors. I could list many more factors. Seems to me the council did the taxpayer a MASSIVE favour by not signing over the land and releasing it to County. Imagine how much more funds could have gone missing!!! They also correctly refused to release any of the hotel loan funding to allow the east stand building to continue. Again well done them else where would that have gone? To the builders? Yeah right!
This part seems to be conjecture and 20/20 vision after the fact. There were clearly issues between them all, but it seems there were opportunities for our money to have been repaid. How all this time on you still see this as a massive favour I do not understand. It seems to me that they have just continued to cost us money out of our council tax. Interest per month or per quarter, now they want more of our money to 'investigate further'. Seriously, leave the investigations to the professionals. Northants Police are investigating, we should be selling our asset and making a profit for the people of Northampton.
Couple of other things though I have loads more.
What's your motivation in bringing this to light. Personal grudge, genuine taxpayer concern. Maybe you are trying to do the right thing and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However what about the motivation of your informant. Are they a concerned tax payer.....course not. It's obvious from the documents and redactions that it's Cardoza himself or someone very closely linked. If so do you believe they are motivated by the truth and doing what's right for the tax payer? You are either being used or part of Cardozas crew.
This one I love MC. Firstly I say unequivocally, I am not Cardoza or linked with him. I am not doing this as a vendetta, nor as I want the job of the senior council officials. (I am waiting for that one from someone!) I am a genuine person who has been studying this for a long time, trawling through whatever I could get my hands on over the last 18 months or so. I do have a source, who will remain anonymous as will I until the time is right for me not to be. This may be never, it may be next week I will make that decision when i believe the time is right. I will only say this about the source......They have been very close to this whole saga and possess information that is of the highest quality.
Finally your redactions. You missed a Dear David by the way. The redactions only serve to weaken your evidence. If this person is so concerned about doing the right thing why remain hidden. What have they got to lose. You seem to have acted completely one sided in red acting the people you want to protect but showing little or no respect for the others involved despite most simply acting in accordance with their roles. You have also redacted content and not just names which raises further concerns of bias and hidden agendas. If your source is so willing to supply all this crucial information perhaps you should ask him for the email trails between Cardoza, Grossmans and Patnick to explain where all the loans funds were spent. But of course that information won't suit the agenda.
I apologise for missing a 'Dear David'. MC, the evidence cannot be weakened as it is factual. I am not doing this out of respect to people or their views, I am publishing this so that the people holding court at the Guildhall start seeing some sense. Through no fault of yours or mine (if you live in Northampton?) this is costing you money every day. Personally I would prefer to have my bins collected more regularly, or have my council tax reduced. When i pay for incompetence, it motivates me to change what I pay for. That is why this information needs to be published. What I refuse to do at this stage is jeopardise the Police investigation by going through the email trails you suggest, sorry.
I have many other questions.
One final questions out of curiosity. What was Barry Stonhills role in the development process? I see him listed as the contact for the Persimmon Homes bid and would take a guess he possibly was the redacted name on the early correspondence with James Whiting?
I understand Stonhill was behind the scenes steering some of the sales process, I also understand he was trying to do something similar at the club way back when.
Hope that helps MC.
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MCHammer
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Thanks for the lengthy response. As you would imagine I take issue with a large proportion of it.
First things first. I think your identity is important here as you are clearly motivated by more than just a tax payers concern. To claim otherwise is frankly laughable. You clearly have strong personal and or political views about the current NBC leadership. Explain what benefit keeping yours and your sources identity secret if you are just a concerned tax payer and have no other motivation?
Next question. If you refuse to name the source, explain to me what their motivation is in making this information public? They have not furnished you with this information out of a deep concern for the public purse!
Your blog posts/letters and posts here are clearly saying that but for the incompetence of senior council officials in agreeing the s106 the development would have gone through and the debt repaid. All problems solved. You seem remarkably comfortable with the idea of a private developer i.e. County making a large profit on some land belonging and given to them by the council. Can you not see a contradiction between being a concerned tax payer and one who is happy with a private developer walking away with millions from land belonging to us the tax payers.
Again your analogy of a mortgage isn't quite as simple as you make out and again flies in the face of what I would expect from a "concerned tax payer". So I'll extend your analogy to better reflect what actually happened. The council gave me a house for a £1. They then gave me a massive piece of land next door.....for nothing. They then loaned me £12 mill, in staged payments, to build a large extension and substantial home improvements. They agreed I could pay it back using the funds I made from building some shops and/or houses on the land next door....that they gave me for nothing don't forget. If I make a profit on that land development I get to keep that as well. Some say I should plough some of that in to my local football club......yeah right.
Unfortunately I decided to start my extension but temptation got the better of me and I decided to use most of the loan on other things. Problem was I'd already taken the back off my house and didn't even have the money to build a smaller cheaper extension. No problem though I'll go and get the last remaining bit of my 12 mill and use that. Surely there's no reason the council wont give it to me. I've proved pretty reliable so far....ok the failed extension, the couple of mill I blew elsewhere and oh I think I forgot to mention I gave 8 mill to my mate to look after but he doesn't seem to be returning my calls and is on holiday in the Carribean for the fourth time this year. Other than that though I've done everything asked of me. For some bizarre reason they are also asking why I am yet to make any repayments. JUst can't please some people.
Anyway luckily I'm going to start pushing on with the development on that free land they gave me. I know bit of a rush now but needs must. I still don't understand why the council are going so slowly. Okay I missed some loan repayments but who doesn't. Okay I missed all the loan repayments but hey its only 8 mill. My development company has been set up now for all of 3 months and has no development experience and no evidence of any significant funds but hey I know some people that do. Anyway I'll get my legal people to start pressuring this land transfer....I don't want to come across as desperate but well I am.
It's okay problem solved. I've met these nice Indian people that have said they'll buy everything off me and it will all be sorted. For some reason though the council now seem funny about handing over the land to someone they haven't yet met and don't know anything about. It's my land what's the problem. Why would they not want to sign it over to some complete strangers.......tsk weirdos. Anyway they want to meet them only problem is I'm worried they might mention some of the stuff that's been going on recently. Not that I have anything to hide. Still I'll threaten them via my lawyers so they won't say anything. That should ease the tension lol.
Ok that didn't go well. The Indians say I'm a bit shifty. Some people. Anyway time to cut my losses. I'll keep the couple of mill just for old time sake. Still can't get hold of my mate but I'm sure he's just keeping the 8 mill safe. What do you mean they want it back. You've got your land back. That's worth 20 mill. If you look at it is way you are over 10 mill up on the deal. I've done you a favour. What do you mean you want the 20 mill land and the money back. You're taking the p mate. Daylight robbery. Sometimes people are so ungrateful. As for those whingers at the local football they've got a superb new open plan stadium. Oh well can't please everyone.
Ok I got carried away with my analogy but hopefully the absurdity of the situation comes through. As a concerned tax payer you think that's an ok result and it would have been even better if we had let him have even more money? Wow!
Oh and by the way conjecture and after the fact. Look at the timeline of events on the BBC website and link it to the correspondence you put online. I already did this afternoon. If you think all this was in a bubble of secrecy that the council were unaware of they you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Even worse if you think it would have made it all ok if the council didn't know and it was only their incompetence that was the reason it didn't happen that's even stranger.
Finally...thank god for that I hear those who made it this far cry. Redacting evidence. Factual evidence if presented in a partial way (i.e. biased and not in it's entirety) is completely weakened. You are presenting only evidence to support your view. Is this all the correspondence you have. If not put it all online and let us decide for ourselves. Put it all up unredacted except for personal email addresses. You seem unconcerned by the way of not offering that courtesy to anyone other than your "friends". If your source is trying to right a wrong and feels they have nothing to hide why hide?
Oh and are you saying you have access to the correspondence between Cardoza, Patnick and Grossman and some of the shady deals that have gone on? I'd suggest the council might prefer that got dropped in their inbox instead or the polices. Doubt you'll be doing that though for multiple reasons. It's good that you have such high legal morals....just a shame they are used so sporadically.
P.S. I know. I said I was done but I've just read it back and feel I need to say something about the council and offer some balance myself. I don't think they have covered themselves in glory. I'm also sure there are people desperately trying to cover their own failings or mistakes. I also don't know whether they failed to complete the land transfer through sheer luck or incompetence. People there need to lose their jobs over this. However you are massively mistaken if you think everything would have been ok if this had gone through. There was only ever one winner out of this had it gone that way. It wouldn't have been the council, tax payer, football club or fans. It would have been the developer i.e County and their cronies. As a supporter of this club and to my shame I supported those people believing and hoping for the best when all the evidence started to say otherwise. That's clearly not a lesson you have yet accepted.
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« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 01:24:41 am by MCHammer »
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Terryfenwickatemyhamster
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Dodgy (now) MP and dodgy council, lend dodgy businessmen some money. Turns out they're all w@nkers.
That's my take on it.
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guest2539
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Dodgy (now) MP and dodgy council, lend dodgy businessmen some money. Turns out they're all w@nkers.
That's my take on it. [/quote......................]and its quicker to read!
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Vintage Cobbler
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Since ATAXPAYER is so publicly spirited he should hand over all the documents in his possession to the Police/SFO who are still investigating the matter. Let the police decide what is relevant or irrelevant. I am sure that NBC and its responsible councillors (past & present) and certain executive officers have been seriously deficient in carrying out their duties but the main players in this cast of many continue to be Grossman and the Cardozas plus their sidekicks.
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Cordwainer2
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I am not going to copy MCHammer's response but may I say that I consider it to be one of the best postings in this lengthy debate.
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guest2677
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I consider it to be the best.
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guest1269
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Dodgy (now) MP and dodgy council, lend dodgy businessmen some money. Turns out they're all w@nkers.
That's my take on it.
.....and no excess words used in it's description - perfect for me. Fair play to MC and Taxwhatever for the detailed discussion but with my limited brain cells dying every minute I simply can't be arsed to spend further time on it .........
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LeeleeSTAR
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I've come to the assumption that ATAXPAYER is braybrooke who posts on the chron website. He also uses capitals all the time and is obsessed with the council.
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BackOfTheNet
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I've come to the assumption that ATAXPAYER is braybrooke who posts on the chron website. He also uses capitals all the time and is obsessed with the council.
Nah, Braybrooke just gets worked up about the loan and Northampton not having a proper university. He's more of a wind up merchant than someone likely to do any actual research. Tony Dearsley on the other hand, he's not averse to twisting evidence to suit his views....
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The Hotelend Grand National* Sweepstake Champion 2020
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ATAXPAYER
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MC
I read with interest your response to mine and simply say this. The points you make are pertinent without doubt, however my issue here is that whilst the authorities are looking at the developers and ex owners of the club our Council is trying to deflect any blame away from themselves. It is they who now need to step up and admit their liability in this sorry state of affairs. This is preferable to issuing denials of key points including knowing about offers on the land, and all the other rubbish Markham and her cronies are spouting. We didnt know this, we didnt know that etc. It is utter crap as proven....People at the council need to lose their jobs and their cushy pensions. The truth also comes out, it is just a matter of time!
I could respond to the analogy and the rest of your post, however i think i have said all that is needed for now.
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Vintage Cobbler
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There is a school of thought that this scandal goes wider and deeper than first thought so if ATAXPAYER has anything of substance to disclose by way of possible incriminating evidence he should not air his opinions in social media but make contact with the police/SFO. I posted this yesterday but silence descended from ATAXPAYER.
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