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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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« Reply #20480 on: November 09, 2017, 06:51:42 am »

Any notion of a wealthy local consortium with enough risk capital to upgrade Sixfields and take us to the next level and keep us there has to be pie in the sky. Let's get back to the topic.
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« Reply #20481 on: November 09, 2017, 07:53:19 am »

You 'fundamentally' disagree that Northampton Town supporters and a local consortium working together to build up the club in a steady sensible way, taking it to a level we want, which is min 10k capacity, dozen corperate boxes etc,  you reckon is Doomed to failure, but  a short term outside consortium who are all hell bent on getting free land is a better option?


Please read what I say

It's not a question that it's doomed to failure it's simply not going to happen - there are no examples of it ever happening - there are some good examples of such arrangements rescuing a club but the significant growth - even modest improved capacity has only ever happened when a money man has come in - I love the thought of a true community club but the reality with such a set up you will always be in the lower divisions and probably non - league.

My reference to a outside consortium is simply we have no choice - your additional comments on short term and hell bent on getting free land (for implied personal gain) are your opinions
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« Reply #20482 on: November 09, 2017, 08:01:48 am »

Does anyone on here have the actual knowledge of being able to advise me how much NTFC is worth, or what the present owners are hoping to achieve financially?
Further more, any idea on annual running costs?

Thanks very much in advance

No, no one on here does. Football Clubs, particularly at our level do not follow the normal rules of M&A - there are no listed stocks, no PE figures and even their published accounts don't really give an indication - you could make an educated calculation on running cost but there are a lot of additional costs that are easy to overlook particularly if you want to produce a figure that makes it look good for a local consortium to take over -  but as you see Beds will never let lack of actual knowledge get in the way of his thesis on the economics of running a football club (with someone else's money).
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« Reply #20483 on: November 09, 2017, 09:34:45 am »

According to Deloitte the average turnover at a league 1 club for 2015/16 was £5.7 million.  Our gross attendance last year was around 160,000 including cup games, even allowing for an average of £15 a head gives approx £2.4m. Not sure whether income from commercial interests would boost this much above £3m. But all this is pure guesswork as accounts are never published.
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« Reply #20484 on: November 09, 2017, 10:03:28 am »

According to Deloitte the average turnover at a league 1 club for 2015/16 was £5.7 million.  Our gross attendance last year was around 160,000 including cup games, even allowing for an average of £15 a head gives approx £2.4m. Not sure whether income from commercial interests would boost this much above £3m. But all this is pure guesswork as accounts are never published.

That's the problem but another (massively simplified) calculation is the gate money pays the players and other income (EFL, FA, TV, catering etc) covers all the other costs - but the reality is running a club with a gate average of 5,000 is never going to make anyone a fortune.

Oh s*** just shot myself in the foot  Wink - perhaps we need the means to get bigger gates!!!!
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« Reply #20485 on: November 09, 2017, 11:30:26 am »

That's the problem but another (massively simplified) calculation is the gate money pays the players and other income (EFL, FA, TV, catering etc) covers all the other costs - but the reality is running a club with a gate average of 5,000 is never going to make anyone a fortune.

Oh **** just shot myself in the foot  Wink - perhaps we need the means to get bigger gates!!!!
I think we all agree we need to build up our club in order to attract an extra 2 to 3000  new supporters from our huge catchment and encourage more corperate intrests with better facilities in order to move forward.. 
From listening to Thomas from the outset  it was quite obvious he was never coming up with a workable plan to help our club.
All our hopes were riding on them getting vast tracts of prime land in order to cheaply fit out the east stand shell.
Not happening now (thankfully) So whats next? Exit strategy leaving the club in a  good position that would help us find the right kind of investment?
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« Reply #20486 on: November 09, 2017, 11:46:30 am »

I think we all agree we need to build up our club in order to attract an extra 2 to 3000  new supporters from our huge catchment and encourage more corperate intrests with better facilities in order to move forward.. 
From listening to Thomas from the outset  it was quite obvious he was never coming up with a workable plan to help our club.
All our hopes were riding on them getting vast tracts of prime land in order to cheaply fit out the east stand shell.
Not happening now (thankfully) So whats next? Exit strategy leaving the club in a  good position that would help us find the right kind of investment?


I am pretty sure that after he took over and agreed the write-off of the £10m debt Kelvin specifically said that they are not here for the land, and they are not in the business of large scale property development. He said they were here to run a football club.

You have it stuck in your head that this a huge land grab attempt, but have zero evidence to support this. So either provide it, or stop repeating the same nonsense.
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« Reply #20487 on: November 09, 2017, 12:03:20 pm »

It's hardly prime land, far from it, even Cardoza's plans needed a big investment in making the former rubbish tip safe.

But to reply to RebelSpawn

Chairman Thomas admits there could be a redevelopment ‘masterplan’ at Sixfields after 5USport investment"

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/chairman-thomas-admits-there-could-be-a-redevelopment-masterplan-at-sixfields-after-5usport-investment-1-8028819
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« Reply #20488 on: November 09, 2017, 12:21:58 pm »

It's hardly prime land, far from it, even Cardoza's plans needed a big investment in making the former rubbish tip safe.

But to reply to RebelSpawn

Chairman Thomas admits there could be a redevelopment ‘masterplan’ at Sixfields after 5USport investment"

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/chairman-thomas-admits-there-could-be-a-redevelopment-masterplan-at-sixfields-after-5usport-investment-1-8028819

Good point, i had forgotten about that article. My take on it was that we may now be looking at hotel/conference centre again and possible expansion of other stands to include more facilities, but still nowhere near the amount of land originally earmarked for development. Which included several hundreds of houses, did it not?

The whole lease situation and what exactly the club have proposed remains unclear. I think Beds is jumping to conclusions at the extreme end of the spectrum. I think the lack of information from the club/council is not helping things.
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« Reply #20489 on: November 09, 2017, 15:52:41 pm »

Its a shame there seems to be littleby way of reasonable guesswork as to how much the club could be purchased for. Wrong place I guess. On other points does anyone really belive there are 2-3000 extra fans to be found at any time other than Wembley visits. The "Northampton" (and surrounding areas) public have long been very fickle.
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« Reply #20490 on: November 09, 2017, 16:18:29 pm »

Its a shame there seems to be littleby way of reasonable guesswork as to how much the club could be purchased for. Wrong place I guess. On other points does anyone really belive there are 2-3000 extra fans to be found at any time other than Wembley visits. The "Northampton" (and surrounding areas) public have long been very fickle.
Since football became popular again 20 odd years ago we have been in a constant state of under development leading to major under achievement on the pitch with very little product to sell to our catchment or entice a new generation of followers.
So as long as this continues in a ramshackled Sixfields nothing is ever going to change.
If we were in a decent atmospheric  stadium holding 10,000 with a dozen corperate boxes/restaurant/bars and a team that could challenge for a play off place or better, gates would average 8 to 10,000 easily  if we heavily promoted our new look ambitious club.
KT has diverted attention away from us having a bigger ground with flippant over exagerations with references to MK and 30,000 and 20,000 but no mention of one that has 10,000 as in my opinion  he doesnt have any intentions of growing our club but keep it ticking over as is.
Our club its supporters and town deserve a chance to grow and challenge other similar towns and cities on equal basis.
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« Reply #20491 on: November 09, 2017, 18:40:05 pm »

I'm a long time watcher and contributor to this thread. But we keep going round and round in circles!!

We are where we are! Nobody knows what KT's intentions are, nobody knows what the Chinese involvement is bringing, nobody knows whats going on with the council, leases or whatever. Nobody knows how the Police investigations are going and whether we (the Club, the Town, The Council, The taxpayer) will ever see any of the missing millions.

Similarly nobody knows whether a ground improvement, boxes, hotel or whatever is going to bring us success on the pitch.

Sixfields is (in my opinion) a dump, a throwback to what it was, a soulless 90's breeze block stadium built on the cheap. 22 years on not a lot has changed bar the famous extra doors in the loos, the more famous gate painting and the even more famous carbunkle of an East Stand.

But people keep using MK as a comparison, a shining beacon, an example of a forward thinking football club with a forward thinking council........has anyone looked at the League table? You can have your 32500 seats, let your ground out to Rugby teams, English National Teams, have the best conferencing facilities for miles around, have a fantastic hotel built within the stand.......but they're still in League 1. Look at Coventry......same set up, they're in League 2.

To be successful (if success is purely measured on league performance and standing) you need investment ON and OFF the pitch, but probably more on than off. Take Bournemouth as a prime example......less than a 12000 capacity in the Premier League? How did that happen? You also need a bit of luck, a good team manager, a good set up behind the scenes, and so many more variables.

Yes we'd all like a bigger better ground.....yes we'd all like the council to roll over again and give us some more land.....but we can like and wish for all we want. We have a League 1 football team, one that doesn't fill their 7600 capacity tin pot stadium on a regular basis, we have had investment on the pitch but still find ourselves struggling in the lower reaches of the division.

The notion that Sixfields is holding us back to any great degree is quite fanciful. It is a small piece in a rather large jigsaw.

I knew Cardoza was crooked, I did as much digging as I could and was eventually proved to be right. I'm not getting the same vibes about KT and crew. Sure its a tangled web (why does it have to be so complicated with holding companies, companies owning other companies, directors in place in many of the same companies?) but my personal opinion is that KT and friends came in when they were needed, got the club on an even keel and that is where we are today.

What the future holds......none of us know!
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« Reply #20492 on: November 09, 2017, 18:46:43 pm »

Great post GPC and everything you say is spot on.
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« Reply #20493 on: November 09, 2017, 18:55:48 pm »

I'm a long time watcher and contributor to this thread. But we keep going round and round in circles!!

......................................etc

Interesting post GPC, but your opinion of our Ground is a little "unfair". If you have been to Stanley, Newport , Gillingham, Exeter, Burton, Luton, Portsmouth etc not sure how you arrived at your put down. For a general day out it ain't too bad and would rather be at 6Fields than say Luton which is so cramped that you cant get to the loo's. As for Accrington words fail me; then Pompey where you stand knee deep in pi$$. Still as they say its all about opinions. Incidentally why is the Oxford game being ignored by the top guys on here!
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« Reply #20494 on: November 09, 2017, 19:08:03 pm »

Interesting post GPC, but your opinion of our Ground is a little "unfair". If you have been to Stanley, Newport , Gillingham, Exeter, Burton, Luton, Portsmouth etc not sure how you arrived at your put down. For a general day out it ain't too bad and would rather be at 6Fields than say Luton which is so cramped that you cant get to the loo's. As for Accrington words fail me; then Pompey where you stand knee deep in pi$$. Still as they say its all about opinions. Incidentally why is the Oxford game being ignored by the top guys on here!


A bit of character and run-downness is sometimes a good thing!! Adds a bit to the experience!! Stanley and Newport are dumps, Gillingham is not too bad on 3 sides, Burton is quite tidy, Luton is quirky with its exec box side whilst yes the Oak Road is a dump, Portsmouth's dumpness is more than made up for by the 16000-18000 who make a great noise and enhance the atmosphere.

Lots of the old grounds have character, ours (imo) doesn't. For the most part its bland, soulless and lacking in atmosphere. We have a nice pitch though and that sometimes lends itself to some decent football!!! Yes it is indeed all about opinions. My seat in the west is quite cramped, hardly any legroom, its a ballache to get into the toilets at half time and the food on offer is overpriced and lacking in selection. But hey, its our ground, where we go 23+ times per season to cheer on our team (!)

I've been to over 130 league grounds......and ours would be low down in the list......would have been a lot higher in 1994, but today its well down the list...again, only in my opinion mind!
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« Reply #20495 on: November 09, 2017, 21:30:00 pm »

I'm a long time watcher and contributor to this thread. But we keep going round and round in circles!!

We are where we are! Nobody knows what KT's intentions are, nobody knows what the Chinese involvement is bringing, nobody knows whats going on with the council, leases or whatever. Nobody knows how the Police investigations are going and whether we (the Club, the Town, The Council, The taxpayer) will ever see any of the missing millions.

Similarly nobody knows whether a ground improvement, boxes, hotel or whatever is going to bring us success on the pitch.

Sixfields is (in my opinion) a dump, a throwback to what it was, a soulless 90's breeze block stadium built on the cheap. 22 years on not a lot has changed bar the famous extra doors in the loos, the more famous gate painting and the even more famous carbunkle of an East Stand.

But people keep using MK as a comparison, a shining beacon, an example of a forward thinking football club with a forward thinking council........has anyone looked at the League table? You can have your 32500 seats, let your ground out to Rugby teams, English National Teams, have the best conferencing facilities for miles around, have a fantastic hotel built within the stand.......but they're still in League 1. Look at Coventry......same set up, they're in League 2.

To be successful (if success is purely measured on league performance and standing) you need investment ON and OFF the pitch, but probably more on than off. Take Bournemouth as a prime example......less than a 12000 capacity in the Premier League? How did that happen? You also need a bit of luck, a good team manager, a good set up behind the scenes, and so many more variables.

Yes we'd all like a bigger better ground.....yes we'd all like the council to roll over again and give us some more land.....but we can like and wish for all we want. We have a League 1 football team, one that doesn't fill their 7600 capacity tin pot stadium on a regular basis, we have had investment on the pitch but still find ourselves struggling in the lower reaches of the division.

The notion that Sixfields is holding us back to any great degree is quite fanciful. It is a small piece in a rather large jigsaw.

I knew Cardoza was crooked, I did as much digging as I could and was eventually proved to be right. I'm not getting the same vibes about KT and crew. Sure its a tangled web (why does it have to be so complicated with holding companies, companies owning other companies, directors in place in many of the same companies?) but my personal opinion is that KT and friends came in when they were needed, got the club on an even keel and that is where we are today.

What the future holds......none of us know!

Just a few things that I see differently,   It's not essential to sell every seat to every game, how can you expect us to sell out every ticket in a an atmospheric void of a non league looking ground with a team that struggles to compete in league 1?
Saying that, our ground is currently 80% full on average which forces us to sell matchday tickets at a £24 premium and unable to introduce promotional gimmicks as we might lock out regulars.

You also say we would all love a bigger ground. .No, we need a 10,000 capacity ground or we rot.
And no we don't want the council to give KT anything as he has shown little belief in our club to give us anything of substance should the land reap rich rewards.
A piddling handfull of boxes was as much as he was willing to suggest.

Any investment now would be for our clubs long term future benefits, that will be felt long after Thomas and Co and the Chinese become just a chapter in our clubs history books.
Doing nothing without any direction isn't an option that should be afforded Thomas and Co.
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« Reply #20496 on: November 09, 2017, 21:43:16 pm »

Just a few things that I see differently, ........

There is an important game on Saturday, why can’t you give yr crusade a rest and give us all an appreciation on Sats game.
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« Reply #20497 on: November 09, 2017, 22:18:22 pm »

Just a few things that I see differently,   It's not essential to sell every seat to every game, how can you expect us to sell out every ticket in a an atmospheric void of a non league looking ground with a team that struggles to compete in league 1?
Saying that, our ground is currently 80% full on average which forces us to sell matchday tickets at a £24 premium and unable to introduce promotional gimmicks as we might lock out regulars.

You also say we would all love a bigger ground. .No, we need a 10,000 capacity ground or we rot.
And no we don't want the council to give KT anything as he has shown little belief in our club to give us anything of substance should the land reap rich rewards.
A piddling handfull of boxes was as much as he was willing to suggest.

Any investment now would be for our clubs long term future benefits, that will be felt long after Thomas and Co and the Chinese become just a chapter in our clubs history books.
Doing nothing without any direction isn't an option that should be afforded Thomas and Co.


I don't expect us to sell every ticket, and yes there are people I know who do stay away because they don't like the ground, because we haven't got cash turnstiles,and they dont want to be sitting in Row A seat number 3 of the West Stand. So yes more seats would equal more choice, but not necessarily bring much higher gates.

We are not "forced" to sell tickets at that premium price.....almost half the seats in the ground available to home fans are taken by season ticket holders, then add on the 200-300 complimentary tickets every game given to sponsors, associates, visiting team scouts etc etc, and you're left with around 3000 seats available on a "walk up" basis. From what i've seen most people purchase tickets in advance so actually only pay £22, the queues for collections are far bigger than the queues for cash sales.
Also the club does make a large number of tickets available to schools, youth teams etc. Commonly there are between 4 and 6 youth teams playing in the shootout, and tickets are made available to the kids for a fiver and its £15 for their parents. So we do already offer cheap tickets too. And yet still we only fill 76% of the seats available to home fans.

I agree with you that Sixfields is not the most welcoming place, I agree that capacity needs to be larger...i'd advocate 12000 to prepare for the Championship, and I agree that we need more room for visiting fans. I also agree that it doesn't appear that the current incumbents in the hot seat are "made of money" and will invest countless millions into the club.

It ain't that easy, there is no guaranteed return. If there was, they'd have done it by now!
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« Reply #20498 on: November 10, 2017, 06:22:09 am »

It's always refreshing to read GPC's contributions and his views again are as reliable as his great work unearthing Cardozagate! Thank you again.

I totally agree regarding Sixfields, I for one had stopped going long before I moved abroad and so had most of my other week in week out mates too, we would travel to all away games yet never to many home games. It's dull, moreover uninspiring to not only hardened fans but ultimately the wider public and potential new support. Buildings make statements and surroundings are incredibly important, that's why even some decrepit and knackered old grounds can be much more conducive to creating atmosphere and fun.

I do however disagree to one extent, my mundane existence, before retirement was on larger construction and engineering projects worldwide and they all have one aspect in common, they make a statement of intent, aspiration. They sell something!

Put aside the MK white elephant project, that's peculiar in such a large stadia development to a largely new and untested market. Give that stadium to an established league club in need of a new stadium and you will see a huge upturn in average attendance.

Sixfields is now bad press, barely anybody here has a clue as to what's going on let alone the wider public, it's tainted. It has grown a fish bowl level of support, in which I mean the support, business and commercial interests are pretty much set and cannot grow. You only have to look at the average attendances since the ground opened, it has barely fluctuated.

An in scale development alongside a careful PR and Media campaign could change everything. Cardozas original plan, if anyone can remember, was almost there, still a little disappointing but a few thousand extra shiny new seats with enticing corporate facilities would be easy to sell. It doesn't need to be a huge first leap, but a tangible, exciting and newsworthy development to capture a little imagination, and at the same time bury some of the bad.

We all know a new exciting stand would be full for it's opening game and similarly as Sixfields enjoyed an instant and substantial leap in average attendance over the CG, the same financially at least, would be enjoyed by the new stand. The incorporation of desperately needed commercial accommodation would secure this.

Even the largest noses on here are quite clueless as to the true intentions of the owners, but unless they're willing to pump endless amounts of money down the drain they must develop the facilities or surroundings to recoup some or all, this as we know is the contentious issue, "surroundings". Let's just hope they do have some exciting ideas for the stadium side of things when or if things are cleared up and the atmosphere in the stadium should improve a little.

You can all fuck off with the spending other peoples money shit as that's all I've ever done. Nobody here is buying the club, or are they? So just carry on speculating chaps, it's fun and it clearly winds up some of the more super intelligent and higher mortals here.

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« Reply #20499 on: November 10, 2017, 06:31:26 am »

I don't expect us to sell every ticket, and yes there are people I know who do stay away because they don't like the ground, because we haven't got cash turnstiles,and they dont want to be sitting in Row A seat number 3 of the West Stand. So yes more seats would equal more choice, but not necessarily bring much higher gates.

We are not "forced" to sell tickets at that premium price.....almost half the seats in the ground available to home fans are taken by season ticket holders, then add on the 200-300 complimentary tickets every game given to sponsors, associates, visiting team scouts etc etc, and you're left with around 3000 seats available on a "walk up" basis. From what i've seen most people purchase tickets in advance so actually only pay £22, the queues for collections are far bigger than the queues for cash sales.
Also the club does make a large number of tickets available to schools, youth teams etc. Commonly there are between 4 and 6 youth teams playing in the shootout, and tickets are made available to the kids for a fiver and its £15 for their parents. So we do already offer cheap tickets too. And yet still we only fill 76% of the seats available to home fans.

I agree with you that Sixfields is not the most welcoming place, I agree that capacity needs to be larger...i'd advocate 12000 to prepare for the Championship, and I agree that we need more room for visiting fans. I also agree that it doesn't appear that the current incumbents in the hot seat are "made of money" and will invest countless millions into the club.

It ain't that easy, there is no guaranteed return. If there was, they'd have done it by now!
Suggestions of unsustainable  'countless millions' being needed is not the only option,  we could try going down the steady sustainable  growth route, a smaller version of what the Saints rugby did, one section at a time, we could extend the South stand and 12 corperate boxes built into the shell soon followed by the restaurant and bars, nothing to luxurious but still giving the ground a more professional feel.  
We, the football club of Northampton could be working with the council to help THEM to acheive planning permission to a developer in return for some financial help that goes directly into where it's needed.
There are several other ways to raise revenues enough to give us the little we require, so scaremongering with large sums doesnt help our continual demise and as doing nothing in fear that it may take a few years to build up our club is a very poor excuse.
KT and co need to show more ambition towards our club.
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