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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Tom
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« Reply #20680 on: January 25, 2018, 12:44:41 pm »

those seats paid for themselves after just 2 games and it still took 3 months of the football season to put them back in.


It's highly unlikely they paid for themselves after 2 games. There are a huge number of factors aside from the direct cost of a physical seat to take into account, which you've evidentially chosen to ignore. Planning, Installation, extra staffing of the seats, any permits or approvals that are needed.

Thats before the extremely simple fact that not everyone going into the new seats is a new customer or a customer that would otherwise not have attended, they very possibly could have been attending in other stands.

Another number just pulled out your backside, and you wonder why people don't take you seriously.
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« Reply #20681 on: January 25, 2018, 12:48:01 pm »

I suggest that you should have a rest from this thread and also from mentioning about the Redevelopment on any other thread.
You just keep repeating yourself; achieving the square root of nothing in the process, aside from boring the pants off everyone else.  
Must be boring for you as well or is this your only gateway to the outside world?
You have been invited to email KT, some have emailed and received a response immediately whilst you continue to refuse.  Is that because in your banal world of Redevelopment that you like to spout off about doesn't like dealing in facts?

Come back when the Redevelopment actually starts, then you can give us a running commentary on how well the club are doing (or not as the case may be) using your vast experience of these things.
You do know all posts are replies to perfectly valid questions😉
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« Reply #20682 on: January 25, 2018, 12:52:12 pm »

If the best we can hope for is 10 boxes fitted into the east stand and nothing else, then  yes we are way worse off.
If these clubs mentioned were to kept in a tiny ground for the next  20 years, I would agree but they're not so highlighting some previous/ current  problems that will get sorted  is not a reason we should give thanks and continue  rotting in a tiny unfit ground as you're suggesting we should do.

Wait, so all those clubs will definitely overcome "some previous/ current  problems" but we will make zero progress with development? You present this like it is an indisputable fact.
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« Reply #20683 on: January 25, 2018, 13:06:07 pm »

If recent rumours are to be believed the consortium aren’t stumping up the money so KT and his Oxford money man are funding the completion of the East Stand.


Genuine question - not having a pop!

By 'recent rumours' do you mean the small number of people on here getting excited about the recent disclosure on Companies House, or something else?
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« Reply #20684 on: January 25, 2018, 13:06:38 pm »

If the best we can hope for is 10 boxes fitted into the east stand and nothing else, then  yes we are way worse off.
If these clubs mentioned were to kept in a tiny ground for the next  20 years, I would agree but they're not so highlighting some previous/ current  problems that will get sorted  is not a reason we should give thanks and continue  rotting in a tiny unfit ground as you're suggesting we should do.



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« Reply #20685 on: January 25, 2018, 13:24:19 pm »

I deliberately left Cov city in the mix to see how quick it would be jumped on by those who see others failures as a reason for us to continue or stagnation.
 As we've established league positions and fortunes change and in covs case suffering crap owners but still find themselves in the fa cup 4th rd,  holders of the checkatrade trophy and in the promotion hunt out of league 2, whilst we have a relegation fight to look forward to.
Deluded? No more realistic.


So in conclusion, you failed to list a single way in which Coventry are currently 'ahead of us' despite using them as an example in your previous post.

I thought so...

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« Reply #20686 on: January 25, 2018, 13:26:02 pm »

nit picking eh? THOUGHT THEY WERE VALID POINTS?
not taking into account our awful recent run of poor home results? CORRECT I DIDNT
Are you suggesting 12000 capacity to be a big ground? NO
Why do you think less people would visit a more professional atmospheric stadium with better supporters facilities? I DONT
Surely a good reason for many more to visit. I THINK IT IS
All figures relating to the current Sixfields have to be taken into context..its an embarrassment to our town. I AGREE
Even for a selfish perspective, who would prefer a decent stadium to spend their Saturday/tuesday evenings at. ME
If thats nearly everyone, then something needs to be done. IT DOES
. I think you will have gathered, to try and help you with this concept I have replied to your points in bold. Still don’t think it will carry any weight with investors though, so remains unlikely as I can’t see anyone spending what’s required on the strength of the points above? That’s unless a supporter with a true love of the club and cash on the hip comes knocking.
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« Reply #20687 on: January 25, 2018, 14:10:33 pm »

Genuine question - not having a pop!

By 'recent rumours' do you mean the small number of people on here getting excited about the recent disclosure on Companies House, or something else?

I genuinely don’t know what you mean by those disclosures. No this was a rumour from somebody at the game on Saturday who can definitely be trusted but certainly isn’t always right. Just a rumour for now. 
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« Reply #20688 on: January 25, 2018, 15:35:32 pm »

I genuinely don’t know what you mean by those disclosures. No this was a rumour from somebody at the game on Saturday who can definitely be trusted but certainly isn’t always right. Just a rumour for now. 

If you read a few pages back through this thread (you may not want to!), there are several references to a new document on Companies House. Some here, not totally unreasonably but probably a bit prematurely, made a leap and assumed it's contents meant 5USport had dropped out of the picture.

This came up before Saturday so could be the origin of the rumour you heard.
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« Reply #20689 on: January 25, 2018, 16:06:23 pm »

If you read a few pages back through this thread (you may not want to!), there are several references to a new document on Companies House. Some here, not totally unreasonably but probably a bit prematurely, made a leap and assumed it's contents meant 5USport had dropped out of the picture.

This came up before Saturday so could be the origin of the rumour you heard.

I see, thank you. I haven’t seen him posting on here for some time now but that doesn’t mean he won’t be reading obviously. I’d be surprised if it was the origin for him as I’ve known him since we were school kids and he tends to know folk and things if you know what I man.
Still comes under the heading of rumour for now. I’m not sure it would be a bad thing if true.
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« Reply #20690 on: January 25, 2018, 16:20:14 pm »

Hi,

Has anyone thought that this money transferred in is part of the $4million that KT had suggested was already ring fenced for east stand completion before 5usport became involved?

Maybe that $4million was still to be introduced to the finances as part of the deal...
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« Reply #20691 on: January 25, 2018, 18:19:48 pm »

You do know all posts are replies to perfectly valid questions😉

They're taking the p1ss mate...  Grin
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« Reply #20692 on: January 25, 2018, 18:33:49 pm »

Hi,

Has anyone thought that this money transferred in is part of the $4million that KT had suggested was already ring fenced for east stand completion before 5usport became involved?

Maybe that $4million was still to be introduced to the finances as part of the deal...
Its got to be paid back next week !
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« Reply #20693 on: January 25, 2018, 19:17:42 pm »

Its got to be paid back next week !

It either gets paid back (presumably by majority shareholder 5USports), or either a) the BVI registered company could take control of some of 5USports share of NT Ventures, or b) new shares are issued in NT Ventures to the value of the investment thereby diluting 5USports share of the company.

That's the way I read it anyway!!

NT Ventures has a total share issue of around 2.8 million £1 shares...or which 5U own 60%..... 1.68 million of the shares.

So the BVI company could have a claim to 1.1 million of those.....or the total shareholding in NT Ventures is increased to 3.9 million as a result of this injection of capital......and 5U only then own 43% of the holding company.

Is that simplistic enough?

The investment is by way of Belle de Jour......Belle de Jour = David Bower....that's the same David Bower who resigned as a director of NT Ventures in September last year, soon after the 5USports "takeover".......

Of course...I may have made all the above up!!  Wink
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« Reply #20694 on: January 25, 2018, 21:18:47 pm »

. I think you will have gathered, to try and help you with this concept I have replied to your points in bold. Still don’t think it will carry any weight with investors though, so remains unlikely as I can’t see anyone spending what’s required on the strength of the points above? That’s unless a supporter with a true love of the club and cash on the hip comes knocking.
As an addition to this I should point out that case studies such as attached would be documented as part of any due diligence. It is examples like this that make raising funds difficult, particularly when dealing with the banks and other similar institutions conducting risk management processes and looking for guarantees. I found the whole story quite interesting, particularly the fate of the developer? It also suggests that our hope that a new state of the art stadium automatically results in larger attendances may not always eventually be accurate ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darlington_Arena
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« Reply #20695 on: January 26, 2018, 06:13:25 am »

As an addition to this I should point out that case studies such as attached would be documented as part of any due diligence. It is examples like this that make raising funds difficult, particularly when dealing with the banks and other similar institutions conducting risk management processes and looking for guarantees. I found the whole story quite interesting, particularly the fate of the developer? It also suggests that our hope that a new state of the art stadium automatically results in larger attendances may not always eventually be accurate ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darlington_Arena
And you were doing so well until you mentioned Darlington, a town of 90, 000 so closer to Wellingborough than Northampton in stature,  that had a vast 25000 seater stadium built that they didn't need.
We dont need it either, The chairman has warned us against 30 and 20,000 capacity stadium and we all 100% agree, we dont..
Its the fact he says 6300 home capacity  (1400 away) 'is about right' for Northampton town, despite it being an embarrassment to our club for over 2 decades and has stopped us significantly  growing our support base which  is catalyst to our struggle to get out of and stay out of league 2.
The Towns population has grown by nearly 50,000 since we first played at Sixfields but yet our attendances have stayed flat.
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« Reply #20696 on: January 26, 2018, 06:37:48 am »

BEDS. This is what we'd be up against IF we had a 12000 capacity stadium in the Championship.

Brentford are moving stadiums soon, Burton will probably go down. We would head into that division with the smallest stadium! Still!!

Forget your sustainable growth model mate, it wouldn't work on the basis that cash that would normally be spent on the team would have to be spent on the repayments instead. We would then have a rubbish team and the crowds would probably go down, not up!

Without chucking at least 30 million quid into the pot, Our only hope for a sustainable football club in the top two tiers is (a) a good team first and foremost & (b) a Bounemouth style bankrolled entrant into the premiership.

No other 'model' would work. To attract the next level of 'investment', get the team into the championship, and attract the money people across the world to join the party.

A 12000 capacity stadium would make virtually no difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things, other than giving us a nicer lower league ground. But with zero chance of filling it unless we got to the 2nd tier. Our overheads would go up massively as well. R&D closed the Airwair (not sure how to spell it) stand behind their goal which they spent a fortune on because they couldn't afford the running costs. MK Dons are clearly skint despite their wonderful facilities and flirtations in the Championship.

Basically, there is zero business case to go from 8000-12000 for an 'investor'. On the flip side, if the club was fan owed, and adapted your model the budget for players short term would go down unless the crowds went up massively which they wouldn't do unless the team was top of the league.

For the risk of repeating a point Im sure I've made previously, If I won 150million the euro lottery Id 'have a play' with the Cobblers, Id increase the playing budget year in year out in the hope of fluking it into the premiership, then Id 'sort the ground out'. Or flog it to someone richer than me if 'the club caught the eye' of someone during the journey. I reckon thats pretty much what our 'owners/investors' are looking to do.

20 years ago Id have done things totally differently. Probably what your suggesting. 2018 versus 1998 - completely different world now. The rich local businessman or lottery winner (!) has no place in football these days, not at the top table. Its gone way beyond that. The days of adding 2000 to your capacity and it making a difference are long gone. We are where we are mate, but I don't expect to change your opinion!  Grin Grin



   Team   sum   Matches   average
1   Leeds United   Leeds United   453.644   14   32.403
2   Aston Villa   Aston Villa   428.111   14   30.579
3   Sunderland AFC   Sunderland AFC   387.715   14   27.694
4   Wolverhampton Wanderers   Wolverhampton Wanderers   387.403   14   27.672
5   Sheffield United   Sheffield United   377.527   14   26.966
6   Derby County   Derby County   374.168   14   26.726
7   Sheffield Wednesday   Sheffield Wednesday   365.116   14   26.080
8   Norwich City   Norwich City   358.842   14   25.632
9   Middlesbrough FC   Middlesbrough FC   357.354   14   25.525
10   Nottingham Forest   Nottingham Forest   354.204   14   25.300
11   Birmingham City   Birmingham City   290.102   14   20.722
12   Bristol City   Bristol City   285.702   14   20.407
13   Cardiff City   Cardiff City   268.020   14   19.144
14   Fulham FC   Fulham FC   262.200   14   18.729
15   Reading FC   Reading FC   242.195   14   17.300
16   Ipswich Town   Ipswich Town   234.923   14   16.780
17   Hull City   Hull City   220.041   14   15.717
18   Bolton Wanderers   Bolton Wanderers   212.202   14   15.157
19   Queens Park Rangers   Queens Park Rangers   199.768   14   14.269
20   Barnsley FC   Barnsley FC   194.307   14   13.879
21   Preston North End   Preston North End   193.067   14   13.791
22   Millwall FC   Millwall FC   177.813   14   12.701
23   Brentford FC   Brentford FC   140.781   14   10.056
24   Burton Albion   Burton Albion   65.943   14   4.710
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 06:39:26 am by DrillingCobbler » Report Spam   Logged
BedsCobb
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« Reply #20697 on: January 26, 2018, 06:53:18 am »

BEDS. This is what we'd be up against IF we had a 12000 capacity stadium in the Championship.

Brentford are moving stadiums soon, Burton will probably go down. We would head into that division with the smallest stadium! Still!!

Forget your sustainable growth model mate, it wouldn't work on the basis that cash that would normally be spent on the team would have to be spent on the repayments instead. We would then have a rubbish team and the crowds would probably go down, not up!

Without chucking at least 30 million quid into the pot, Our only hope for a sustainable football club in the top two tiers is (a) a good team first and foremost & (b) a Bounemouth style bankrolled entrant into the premiership.

No other 'model' would work. To attract the next level of 'investment', get the team into the championship, and attract the money people across the world to join the party.

A 12000 capacity stadium would make virtually no difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things, other than giving us a nicer lower league ground. But with zero chance of filling it unless we got to the 2nd tier. Our overheads would go up massively as well. R&D closed the Airwair (not sure how to spell it) stand behind their goal which they spent a fortune on because they couldn't afford the running costs. MK Dons are clearly skint despite their wonderful facilities and flirtations in the Championship.

Basically, there is zero business case to go from 8000-12000 for an 'investor'. On the flip side, if the club was fan owed, and adapted your model the budget for players short term would go down unless the crowds went up massively which they wouldn't do unless the team was top of the league.

For the risk of repeating a point Im sure I've made previously, If I won 150million the euro lottery Id 'have a play' with the Cobblers, Id increase the playing budget year in year out in the hope of fluking it into the premiership, then Id 'sort the ground out'. Or flog it to someone richer than me if 'the club caught the eye' of someone during the journey. I reckon thats pretty much what our 'owners/investors' are looking to do.

20 years ago Id have done things totally differently. Probably what your suggesting. 2018 versus 1998 - completely different world now. The rich local businessman or lottery winner (!) has no place in football these days, not at the top table. Its gone way beyond that. The days of adding 2000 to your capacity and it making a difference are long gone. We are where we are mate, but I don't expect to change your opinion!  Grin Grin



   Team   sum   Matches   average
1   Leeds United   Leeds United   453.644   14   32.403
2   Aston Villa   Aston Villa   428.111   14   30.579
3   Sunderland AFC   Sunderland AFC   387.715   14   27.694
4   Wolverhampton Wanderers   Wolverhampton Wanderers   387.403   14   27.672
5   Sheffield United   Sheffield United   377.527   14   26.966
6   Derby County   Derby County   374.168   14   26.726
7   Sheffield Wednesday   Sheffield Wednesday   365.116   14   26.080
8   Norwich City   Norwich City   358.842   14   25.632
9   Middlesbrough FC   Middlesbrough FC   357.354   14   25.525
10   Nottingham Forest   Nottingham Forest   354.204   14   25.300
11   Birmingham City   Birmingham City   290.102   14   20.722
12   Bristol City   Bristol City   285.702   14   20.407
13   Cardiff City   Cardiff City   268.020   14   19.144
14   Fulham FC   Fulham FC   262.200   14   18.729
15   Reading FC   Reading FC   242.195   14   17.300
16   Ipswich Town   Ipswich Town   234.923   14   16.780
17   Hull City   Hull City   220.041   14   15.717
18   Bolton Wanderers   Bolton Wanderers   212.202   14   15.157
19   Queens Park Rangers   Queens Park Rangers   199.768   14   14.269
20   Barnsley FC   Barnsley FC   194.307   14   13.879
21   Preston North End   Preston North End   193.067   14   13.791
22   Millwall FC   Millwall FC   177.813   14   12.701
23   Brentford FC   Brentford FC   140.781   14   10.056
24   Burton Albion   Burton Albion   65.943   14   4.710
If you take our current state and put us up against several of those close to the bottom, you are right there's no way our little back water club could survive the championship.
But look again at those bottom 7 and a dozen other clubs who are even higher , they were all lower league sides in recent times some struggling to stay alive at the very bottom, but now proudly holding their own in Europes 4th biggest supported league.
While I believe we must target competing in league 1 to hopefully achieve a championship season or 3 as a minimum of our ambition,  I also fully understand its never going to happen without decent infrastructure.
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« Reply #20698 on: January 26, 2018, 06:53:55 am »

GPC has got the shareholding mixed up. Ventures owns 83.7% of the issued share capital of the football club, NTFC.  The football club has borrowed from Thomas, Bower & the BVI company £1m+ which loan is secured by Ventures shares in NTFC.  So, if push comes to shove and the lenders enforce their security any time after 31 January 2018 if the loan is not repaid the football club becomes owned by the lenders.

Where, you might well ask, are our illustrious Chines partners, 5USport, in all this. Nowhere I suggest. GPC says that the Chinese own 60% of Ventures.  Do they?

Wake up and smell the coffee guys.
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« Reply #20699 on: January 26, 2018, 07:43:23 am »

And you were doing so well until you mentioned Darlington, a town of 90, 000 so closer to Wellingborough than Northampton in stature,  that had a vast 25000 seater stadium built that they didn't need.
We dont need it either, The chairman has warned us against 30 and 20,000 capacity stadium and we all 100% agree, we dont..
Its the fact he says 6300 home capacity  (1400 away) 'is about right' for Northampton town, despite it being an embarrassment to our club for over 2 decades and has stopped us significantly  growing our support base which  is catalyst to our struggle to get out of and stay out of league 2.
The Towns population has grown by nearly 50,000 since we first played at Sixfields but yet our attendances have stayed flat.

Once again the lines of communication seem to have been distorted. I’m afraid the population of Darlington is irrelevant. The only question that is relevant is did the average gate increase following development? It is an indisputable fact that it didnt. I don’t really know how else to communicate this. Trust me, it is also a fact that if you went to the banks with the justifications you offer you would be turned down on sight. As a result it is highly unlikely that you will see your campaign come to fruition unless the club  does a Bournemouth or a benefactor of considerable wealth buys the club. Good luck with it though, stranger things have happened.
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