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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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« Reply #23980 on: February 01, 2019, 22:04:06 pm »

Please no! This is not a facebook add on .
Personally I’d prefer a sh1te button. Trouble is I’d be pressing it like those rats in a Skinner box.
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« Reply #23981 on: February 01, 2019, 23:18:18 pm »

Obviously I don't as this is a forum, neither would you be able to ascertain, from afar my own perspective, although you'll possibly have vague ideas just the same. Unfortunately for me forums are pretty much all I can rely on, as distance makes it impossible to be positively active other than send cash.

You may have to change your perspective on society, sadly it will not return as before and in the same regard to what all adjoins us, the club. I will gain absolutely nothing from a one to one with Kelvin, nor will you if that's your preferred method. So why bother with social media at all? As far as I was aware this forum is not for your personal "progress", whatever that may be.

Businessmen are bastards, I know, I'm one of them and to succeed you must lie at times. If you want proof look at our last incumbent, and several before.

It's not untrue to say the football club is not viable, more now than ever before. Whispering to each other wont change that.



I take my time to compose a detailed response and then you don't bother to read it.
You respond with a reply to what you thought or even worse probably wanted me to have said. Thank you...
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« Reply #23982 on: February 01, 2019, 23:56:32 pm »

I’ll tell you how much they care... If we were in the top three 90% of this debate would disappear overnight.

There is no lower league club that can lay claim to a clear accord within its support. Even the Trust doesn’t have the luxury of aunanimous agreement on the way forward. We haven’t had a whiff of top level football for 50+ years. We've never had a single board that was universally liked. Nothing has changed at all. It’s just you and a few others believing the stories YOU'VE built 😁. Nobody gave a damn about leases, the council or anything else when Wilder wonders were storming league two.

You’re poundshop revolutionaries.... Two a penny on the internet.. 😁😁

I think it's far from true to say nobody gave a damn about the Cardozas' shenanigans. Although there was less concern about the leases, mainly because at this stage the council hadn't been 'backdoored' by our current chairman.
And as for poundshop revolutionaries, that's a bit rich given how you used to speak out against Cardoza. Don't get me wrong, I don't currently consider our two recent chairmen to be the same animal; but there are definitely things with this administration that don't sit well, and these need highlighting.
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« Reply #23983 on: February 02, 2019, 00:05:42 am »

I guarantee if you go and see him he will answer all of those for you.

I'm also pretty sure I didn't promise anything, but you know, facts are not important.

As stated before, I had similar concerns as many,  they've been answered for me - those answers I got may or may not, satisfy others - who knows - I had stuff I wanted answered, I had them answered.

In terms of KT he actually said we could cover some bits on the podcast and said report it as you see fit, if you think I'm a twat then feel free to call me a twat.

Final note, Gareth Willsher said the club is in the best state he has known and it's the most professional he has known it. But, what would he know.

BTW you are also right, we do need to keep that relationship as open as possible with the club but they'd be called out if there was a need.

You've posted something similar a few times over the last couple of days. So, just as a matter of interest, what exactly were the concerns you highlighted regarding NTFC? And how were these issues satisfied?
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« Reply #23984 on: February 02, 2019, 00:46:09 am »

You've posted something similar a few times over the last couple of days. So, just as a matter of interest, what exactly were the concerns you highlighted regarding NTFC? And how were these issues satisfied?

The same as everyone else really. List of issues discussed :

* Seems like a bit of a fire sale?
*Rumours of money troubles?
*Lack of action on the East Stand?
*Are you just a "land grabber" or whatever the term people use?
* Did you earn £6millon from 5USport and what happened?
*Why is there no mid to long term vision for the ground?
* Some large discussions about players, the Trust, fans, managers (ex and current) and of course DC.
* A long discussion about the positive work going on at the club and the positive changes

 It's very easy to get caught up in negativity, especially when you read this forum and that's what happened with me, so I wanted to find out for myself.

The concerns I personally had were satisfied by the answers the chairman gave and the way he backed up his answers with hard proof. 

I wanted answers, I sought them, I got them. I wasn't the only one this week either.

It's really not that hard if you care that much, that's just my opinion. Also I'm quite happy to take flak and for people to suggest I've been brainwashed etc it's water off a ducks back and the beauty of the world we live in is that everyone is entitled to their view and everyone is allowed an opinion - I just dont get the abuse that goes on, on both sides of the argument, at the end of the day we all are connected by one thing, the Cobblers, and we all want the best for the Cobblers. Just because people have a different view doesn't mean they're an idiot, they're naive or they're a clown. The world is a nasty enough place without all of us turning on each other! I can understand people's concerns and I some of those concerns are probably exacerbated by the whole DC saga.

The more fans pull together the better IMO as it's only going to benefit the club - looking into more fan involvement with the club like the Trust are doing is a fantastic start and my ultimate wish is that the Trust become an open, honest, fully inclusive group that helps drive positive change - they seem to be making some baby steps towards this (That's not a dig btw, it's meant as a positive) and that can only be a good thing.

I love the Cobblers, they've been the one constant in my life and they've helped me get through some tough times by simply being able to go and watch them and take my mind off stuff for 90 minutes. Whatever people choose to say about the Cobblers, they're a bloody good football club and that's something we shouldn't lose sight of. We are so very good at concentrating on the negatives, especially here in Northampton as we f***ing love a moan don't we?


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« Reply #23985 on: February 02, 2019, 05:32:37 am »

I’ll tell you how much they care... If we were in the top three 90% of this debate would disappear overnight.

There is no lower league club that can lay claim to a clear accord within its support. Even the Trust doesn’t have the luxury of aunanimous agreement on the way forward. We haven’t had a whiff of top level football for 50+ years. We've never had a single board that was universally liked. Nothing has changed at all. It’s just you and a few others believing the stories YOU'VE built 😁. Nobody gave a damn about leases, the council or anything else when Wilder wonders were storming league two.

You’re poundshop revolutionaries.... Two a penny on the internet.. 😁😁

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« Reply #23986 on: February 02, 2019, 07:21:47 am »

I guarantee if you go and see him he will answer all of those for you.

I'm also pretty sure I didn't promise anything, but you know, facts are not important.

As stated before, I had similar concerns as many,  they've been answered for me - those answers I got may or may not, satisfy others - who knows - I had stuff I wanted answered, I had them answered.

In terms of KT he actually said we could cover some bits on the podcast and said report it as you see fit, if you think I'm a twat then feel free to call me a twat.

Final note, Gareth Willsher said the club is in the best state he has known and it's the most professional he has known it. But, what would he know.

BTW you are also right, we do need to keep that relationship as open as possible with the club but they'd be called out if there was a need.
Its like a hypnotist, they have to select the audience to find those most suitable to go under?
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« Reply #23987 on: February 02, 2019, 07:34:51 am »

I enjoy the discussions on here and I share the disappointment at the pointless abuse at times...everyone's entitled to a view and regardless of whether you think their opinion is rubbish or not, let's respect their efforts.

Reading the recent pages on this thread, I think there are two main issues: what is going on with club in terms of ownership and what is going on with regards to development of the ground.

I know most people see the two things as linked but as far as I can see from comments on here, this isn't the case. Theoretically, the club could change hands tomorrow without anything happening to the land behind the east stand. The leases are held by a different company...

The potential redevelopment of the land is a negotiation between NBC and the company that holds the lease. I haven't seen on this board or elsewhere the specific requirements that NBC have placed upon CDNL with regards to the stadium, or indeed are there any?

Discussions between the owners of the club and NBC are now described as good...but I have never seen any information or statement from NBC regarding what their aims are. Has anybody?

There is a huge amount of speculation and everybody brings their own knowledge and expertise...but precise facts are very rare. If anybody can answer the question above I would be very grateful..
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« Reply #23988 on: February 02, 2019, 08:07:48 am »

Bout time he had another open forum from , Thomas like the bells and whistles opener with his dreams and aspirations for the club on a whiteboard. Not just private consultations where hes going to say what you want to hear. His heart and soul isn't with NTFC like us fans, hes just another fly by night chairman like Cardoza,Underwood and the market trader, at least with the likes of Barry Stonhil et al they were fans , we knew we didn't have pots of money , they made no promises, and we knew where we stood.
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« Reply #23989 on: February 02, 2019, 08:16:21 am »

The same as everyone else really. List of issues discussed :

* Seems like a bit of a fire sale?
*Rumours of money troubles?
*Lack of action on the East Stand?
*Are you just a "land grabber" or whatever the term people use?
* Did you earn £6millon from 5USport and what happened?
*Why is there no mid to long term vision for the ground?
* Some large discussions about players, the Trust, fans, managers (ex and current) and of course DC.
* A long discussion about the positive work going on at the club and the positive changes

 It's very easy to get caught up in negativity, especially when you read this forum and that's what happened with me, so I wanted to find out for myself.

The concerns I personally had were satisfied by the answers the chairman gave and the way he backed up his answers with hard proof. 

I wanted answers, I sought them, I got them. I wasn't the only one this week either.

It's really not that hard if you care that much, that's just my opinion. Also I'm quite happy to take flak and for people to suggest I've been brainwashed etc it's water off a ducks back and the beauty of the world we live in is that everyone is entitled to their view and everyone is allowed an opinion - I just dont get the abuse that goes on, on both sides of the argument, at the end of the day we all are connected by one thing, the Cobblers, and we all want the best for the Cobblers. Just because people have a different view doesn't mean they're an idiot, they're naive or they're a clown. The world is a nasty enough place without all of us turning on each other! I can understand people's concerns and I some of those concerns are probably exacerbated by the whole DC saga.

The more fans pull together the better IMO as it's only going to benefit the club - looking into more fan involvement with the club like the Trust are doing is a fantastic start and my ultimate wish is that the Trust become an open, honest, fully inclusive group that helps drive positive change - they seem to be making some baby steps towards this (That's not a dig btw, it's meant as a positive) and that can only be a good thing.

I love the Cobblers, they've been the one constant in my life and they've helped me get through some tough times by simply being able to go and watch them and take my mind off stuff for 90 minutes. Whatever people choose to say about the Cobblers, they're a bloody good football club and that's something we shouldn't lose sight of. We are so very good at concentrating on the negatives, especially here in Northampton as we **** love a moan don't we?




Fair play for you for being proactive and as I've said before I don't think all parties here are a million miles away in terms of thinking but it's pretty much unworkable for every fan to individually meet with Kelvin to find out what is going on at the club. It could quite easily be construed as a divide and rule tactic. Contrast his approach to that of Andy Holt at Accrington and the difference is stark (in league position too). Although I absolutely see where you are coming from, not sure a podcast needs to be a cheerleader for the club and it kind of goes against the cynical, humorous tone that it took when it first started.

The Trust being non-inclusive is pretty much fake news, they hunkered down a bit after the Cardoza crisis but so did about every facet of the club. There is an embattled mindset about the place that's not healthy and everyone needs to take a breath and break out of that Trust included. Fortunately, one of the benefits of the Trust's bureaucratic structure is they have the processes in place to rapidly make strides which they are doing.

A lot of this stuff is delayed fall out from the Cardoza crisis it's just that it all unfolded so quickly there was no time to think strategically. If there is one thing KT appears to have done is build a base to work from. His latest video was one of the most significant developments (excuse the pun) in recent times. He appears to be open to listening to the Trust's ideas and hopefully that can lead to leaving a club (whenever that happens) on a footing that takes us beyond the annual scraps with relegation to non-league. Personally am sick to death of the Cobblers being a laughing stock in the pubs and workplaces of the town and if Accrington Stanley can turn around the "who are they" label of the milk advert and become a pride of the populace so can we.
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« Reply #23990 on: February 02, 2019, 08:26:36 am »

I enjoy the discussions on here and I share the disappointment at the pointless abuse at times...everyone's entitled to a view and regardless of whether you think their opinion is rubbish or not, let's respect their efforts.

Reading the recent pages on this thread, I think there are two main issues: what is going on with club in terms of ownership and what is going on with regards to development of the ground.

I know most people see the two things as linked but as far as I can see from comments on here, this isn't the case. Theoretically, the club could change hands tomorrow without anything happening to the land behind the east stand. The leases are held by a different company...

The potential redevelopment of the land is a negotiation between NBC and the company that holds the lease. I haven't seen on this board or elsewhere the specific requirements that NBC have placed upon CDNL with regards to the stadium, or indeed are there any?

Discussions between the owners of the club and NBC are now described as good...but I have never seen any information or statement from NBC regarding what their aims are. Has anybody?

There is a huge amount of speculation and everybody brings their own knowledge and expertise...but precise facts are very rare. If anybody can answer the question above I would be very grateful..

This only how I see it, so could be open to scrutiny.
Thomas and co had hoped to secure all the land behind the East earning several millions and would use a few hundred grand fitting out the east, job done sell up and move on, but the council rightly put the skids under this plan, and could only allow half the running track from the cndl leasehold.
Thomas and co, angry at not getting the vast swathes of council owned land started publicly blaming the council for not unconditionally handing over all the valuble council land into the hands of private investors.
The club was used as leverage to secure the deal, for the record I'm glad they didn't get their hands on all the land.
It was at this stage 2 years ago, T&co blamed the council for holding up redevelopment of the east stand only for the Council to call their bluff and told them to get on with it, as nothing was stopping them, remembering they took control with a promise of using £4m for this very purpose.
But to me it seems they were never going to spend a penny of their own money, just a small amount of a massive windfall that now appears to be a lot less than they initially had hoped for.

All suppositions and guess work on my behalf derived from the multiple delays, excuses,  blame apportionment and inactivity over these past 3 years.
Please correct me should I have read things wrongly.
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« Reply #23991 on: February 02, 2019, 08:34:29 am »

I’ll tell you how much they care... If we were in the top three 90% of this debate would disappear overnight.

There is no lower league club that can lay claim to a clear accord within its support. Even the Trust doesn’t have the luxury of aunanimous agreement on the way forward. We haven’t had a whiff of top level football for 50+ years. We've never had a single board that was universally liked. Nothing has changed at all. It’s just you and a few others believing the stories YOU'VE built 😁. Nobody gave a damn about leases, the council or anything else when Wilder wonders were storming league two.

You’re poundshop revolutionaries.... Two a penny on the internet.. 😁😁


Another apologist for the status quo.  That’s your view but don’t belittle those who are advocating change as pound-shop revolutionaries.  Every supporter has the right to comment on what is going on on and off the pitch as he or she sees fit.   

The debate about redevelopment has rumbled on for years, well before the Wilder era and now well after. As for your comment that if we were in the top 3 90% of this debate would disappear, I doubt it, but it was taken again from the KT book of sayings. Only yesterday in the latest episode of uninformative spin KT said as much. His words were “fans always relate to what happens on the pitch” which is a statement of the blindingly obvious.  That does not mean that all other discussions have no merit. This one concerns the very fabric of the club.

You state “We haven’t had a whiff of top level football for 50+ years”.  True, but you don’t offer any explanation as to why.  Your line of argument appears to be that it has always been like this and so it will always will be like this.  This is combined with an attack on the negativity of those who want change and have the temerity to criticise owners who consistently have one thing in common , a failure to deliver.  I would argue that those pushing for change are on the positive side of the debate.

My take is that you cannot build a sustainable, successful football club without the right infrastructure  and that means having a decent ground with facilities that earn money for the club 7 days a week.  Add to that the need for the club to own permanent training facilities.  It is not as though this is unusual in the sphere of professional sport in the UK.  How many towns and cities in England with a population much the same as Northampton (225,000 and rising) have football clubs without such basic foundations?  Achieving that in Northampton would be the starting point. 

We are over 3 years into the current regime and despite the blarney we are being fed it must be apparent to all that the club is not progressing.  In fact, the opposite is more discernible.  KT increasingly sounds like a struggling politician on the backfoot trying to justify the unjustifiable. 

My view which I posted on the Fans Ownership thread is that so far as NTFC is concerned the current ownership model is broken and a new model is needed.  This comment is not aimed at KT only but also previous owners.   There is work to do to come up with the right model but greater and direct involvement of the Trust, as the only representative body of the supporters, is in my view essential.  There will need to be a long term partnership with investor partners and this will no doubt be a challenge but certainly not impossible.  Something along these lines has worked well in Germany for a long time and we can learn from their positive experience.  It is time for the supporters to be heard and included in what is after all a community club.
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« Reply #23992 on: February 02, 2019, 10:53:11 am »

Has anyone tried attacking it from the other direction....ie asking the Council what is going on??

There are surely a lot of Borough Council tax payers on here, and Borough Councillors have emails, Twitter etc.....has anyone tried to get anything out of them? Ask them what is the reason for the impasse?

Ironic that privately owned Northampton Saints have this week got another loan out of the Council to fund development at Franklins Gardens.....thats on top of a loan they already had and have been paying back slowly since 2014.

They borrowed £5m FIVE years ago and have only paid back a fifth so far, and have now got another loan for an amount in excess of the total they have paid back on the first!!

Is KT trying to get a similar deal from the Council for the Football Club? Is that what the "good conversations" are about?
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« Reply #23993 on: February 02, 2019, 11:14:14 am »

Tom Reed of NeneQuirer put a number of questions recently to NBC and the Council declined to answer any. 

So, what we face is a wall of silence from both our owners and NBC.  This can only fuel suspicions of a land deal that is favourable to NBC and KT & DB as owners of CDNL and from which NTFC and its supporters is completely shut out.  Based on the 2013 agreement and what was subsequently reported as the land value we are talking potentially many millions here, not loose change.  Remember the land concerned was NTFC leasehold land carved out to CDNL in 2013 which our owners snatched from under the noses of NBC by doing a deal with the Liquidators of CDNL.  The Council was known to be furious as was shown by the public spat between Thomas & Bower last year. Then mysteriously peace broke out and NBC & CDNL are now enjoying "good discussions".  I wonder if it could possibly be about who gets what from our community land.  Suspicious? You bet.

Confident that we are safe hands with NBC & KT/DB?  The secrecy and exclusion suggests the contrary.

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« Reply #23994 on: February 02, 2019, 11:15:43 am »

Correction: public spat between Thomas & Nunn. Apologies
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« Reply #23995 on: February 02, 2019, 11:55:53 am »

I have had one question for KT from day one and it’s never been answered to my knowledge? That is why did he buy the club? No really, what was the specific motivation and what has changed to make him want to sell? It’s not the most convenient business for him to involve himself in being based in the States and would probably have a detrimental effect on his other interests? Further to this, no one with a level of intelligence goes into something like this on a whim and without a very clear plan and set of objectives, so what were they? Being at Oxford means that this was no learning curve either. I say this without agenda or implied accusation, it has genuinely been a mystery to me from the start and remains that way, for the moment? If it was for the love of football and to be involved in the culture then he probably wouldn’t be selling would he? It’s all been baffling me for years, and I don’t buy the land grab theory either. Too difficult and messy.
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« Reply #23996 on: February 02, 2019, 12:32:02 pm »

This only how I see it, so could be open to scrutiny.
Thomas and co had hoped to secure all the land behind the East earning several millions and would use a few hundred grand fitting out the east, job done sell up and move on, but the council rightly put the skids under this plan, and could only allow half the running track from the cndl leasehold.
Thomas and co, angry at not getting the vast swathes of council owned land started publicly blaming the council for not unconditionally handing over all the valuble council land into the hands of private investors.
The club was used as leverage to secure the deal, for the record I'm glad they didn't get their hands on all the land.
It was at this stage 2 years ago, T&co blamed the council for holding up redevelopment of the east stand only for the Council to call their bluff and told them to get on with it, as nothing was stopping them, remembering they took control with a promise of using £4m for this very purpose.
But to me it seems they were never going to spend a penny of their own money, just a small amount of a massive windfall that now appears to be a lot less than they initially had hoped for.

All suppositions and guess work on my behalf derived from the multiple delays, excuses,  blame apportionment and inactivity over these past 3 years.
Please correct me should I have read things wrongly.

But CDNL have got the leases for vast swathes of council owned land. I'm told this is why NBC have been less than forthcoming.
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« Reply #23997 on: February 02, 2019, 12:33:11 pm »

I’d say picking up a going concern for a £1 albeit with tax bill etc to settle is an easy win particularly when you can negotiate a debt settlement along the way.
That the club footprint is 11 acres also helps and then the inside track on all matters CDNL / First Land that delivers information and direct contact to the administrators to allow CVA to be agreed thus avoiding forfeiture of the leases to the big parcel of adjoining land back to NBC.

Apart from that I have no idea.
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« Reply #23998 on: February 02, 2019, 12:39:43 pm »

I have had one question for KT from day one and it’s never been answered to my knowledge? That is why did he buy the club? No really, what was the specific motivation and what has changed to make him want to sell? It’s not the most convenient business for him to involve himself in being based in the States and would probably have a detrimental effect on his other interests? Further to this, no one with a level of intelligence goes into something like this on a whim and without a very clear plan and set of objectives, so what were they? Being at Oxford means that this was no learning curve either. I say this without agenda or implied accusation, it has genuinely been a mystery to me from the start and remains that way, for the moment? If it was for the love of football and to be involved in the culture then he probably wouldn’t be selling would he? It’s all been baffling me for years, and I don’t buy the land grab theory either. Too difficult and messy.

Maybe difficult and messy, but there was a land grab. If you search back far enough through this thread you'll find I outlined exactly what occurred (posted maybe May/June of last year?).
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« Reply #23999 on: February 02, 2019, 12:43:59 pm »

My take is that you cannot build a sustainable, successful football club without the right infrastructure  and that means having a decent ground with facilities that earn money for the club 7 days a week.  Add to that the need for the club to own permanent training facilities.  It is not as though this is unusual in the sphere of professional sport in the UK.  How many towns and cities in England with a population much the same as Northampton (225,000 and rising) have football clubs without such basic foundations?  Achieving that in Northampton would be the starting point. 

Great so you've identified the problem everyone already knew and has known for years.  What's your solution?

I can pretty much guarantee a community ownership alongside private investment model would face the exact same challenges ALL previous owners have faced.  Let alone even contemplating how that model would even work together in practice.

Without enabling development or SERIOUS amounts of financial investment the community ownership model would be treading water just to stay afloat like everyone else has in the past.  Let alone considering new training grounds, stadium expansion or even finishing the East stand as it is.  Different doesn't mean better.

Also most ignore the council aspect of this.  They are broke and completely ineffective/inactive in most of their activities particularly planning and any large development.  That's a fact.  A different ownership model for NTFC has no impact on that whatsoever.
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