Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

[Deepcut Cobbler]

It may have gone un noticed to you but after 20 years suffering at the hands of land grabbing speculators, we barely attract 1.5% of Northampton town football clubs 300,000 exclusive catchment.
That has to be seen as the largest and most prolonged protest of all football league clubs during these past 20 golden years of footballs fashionable renaissance.
My one man 'Thomas out'  hill top protest will be in full swing V Walsall.

 

Unless we are playing a top seven side, or Man United in the cup, or...

[Vintage Cobbler]

I am no more in a position to oust KT than any other supporter. He will go only when he is ready to go.  That does not mean I think he is a good or even a competent owner.  The period of his ownership has been a major disappointment from a person who claims to be a “football man”.  I would say he is a man who has learned to make a decent living from football clubs but that is about it.  I think the chances on him earning a much bigger amount are not far away.  The losers look to me to be NTFC and, in particular, us the supporters.

TFAMH is right when he says the supporter base is not exactly rising up in arms but that is the nature of Cobblers supporters in that they have set the bar so low for generations that survival in L2 is seen as a success.  The club has not grown, it has little or no infrastructure and whilst down all these years the town has grown from a population in my youth of 100,000 to 230,000 today the number of supporters has not increased.  A massive opportunity has been missed over these years and there is every sign that this under-performing trend will continue.  One of the underlying reasons for this has to be the club’s ownership.  But supporters are not blameless.  They could and should make their voice heard louder at the sorry state of affairs unless that is they agree with KT’s comments in a club video on 15 March 2019 that “the club looks very healthy”.  That is not how I see things and that is a big understatement.

We can and should be doing much better on and off the pitch.  But that requires medium to long-term planning and a business model that works.  There is neither and responsibility for that has to be laid at the door of our owners. But they are not here for that purpose.  To use a football pun there is a much bigger goal in sight that will line their pockets but does nothing for the future of NTFC.  TFAMH is right when he says that it would take a poor performance from the team this season for the fans to turn en masse against KT.  He knows this and he is working hard to achieve his ambitions on the land behind the East Stand.  At present he remains the Pied Piper of Sixfields and undemanding and silent supporters are happily following him.

The saying goes that history repeats itself and we are very much in the same position with the present owners as we were with the previous owners in 2013-2014.  If that doesn’t send alarm bells ringing nothing will.  As in 2013-2014, the club is saddled with significant debt owing to the owners, the owners are planning to earn serious amounts of profit from the development of land behind the East Stand, the existing ground is suffering from a lack of improvement, our owners claim to be acting in the “best interests” of the club and many supporters believe that or want to believe that because the alternative is too difficult to contemplate.  

What I see staring us in the face is that KT is going to get his way on the land, the price of which will be him completing the East Stand.  Goodness only knows to what standard but there must be a major risk that it is a horrible mess. The Council cannot dictate what goes inside the stand and there appear to be no plans that show anything in detail. I doubt that any plans sufficient for a contractors and architects to start work exist.  That is why KT does not publish them. He wants no meaningful supporter involvement. His attitude is you will get what you are given.

In case it has escaped the attention of supporters what is in progress is as follows:

- KT is refusing to sign the legal document that would reinstate the NTFC/CDNL boundary to what it should have been if NBC had not made an error when granting the lease to CDNL.  We are not talking about a few feet.  The correct boundary is that if you draw a line in the middle of the running track area all the land on the East Stand should be NTFC’s leasehold interest.  KT having told supporters that the reinstatement of the boundary to what should be was the only reason holding up proceeding with the East Stand to completion now refuses to transfer back a significant area of land to NTFC.  It follows that if commercial development takes place on that land all the profit and any future income will go to CDNL.  If that doesn’t inflame supporters I guess nothing will.

- Once the go-ahead is given to KT and outline planning consent is obtained I think we can expect CDNL to be sold to a major developer and I expect the club will be sold for a nominal or low figure with the debt written off, not out of generosity but as a small price to pay for the much bigger profits earned or being earned on the CDNL land, land which was spirited away from NTFC in highly dubious circumstances, land which was and should be community land or if developed should be developed for the benefit of NTFC, its supporters and the wider community.  

The only group standing up to this is the Trust and yet many on here continue to snipe and sneer at its efforts whilst doing nothing themselves other than follow our Pied Piper.  You know the meaning of that fairy tale I hope.


 

[BedsCobb]

Unless we are playing a top seven side, or Man United in the cup, or...

correct

[guest3063]

correct

But, but Walsall could be a top seven team, although not alphabetically obviously 

[Irchy cob]

But, but Walsall could be a top seven team, although not alphabetically obviously 

You can’t help but admire a man of principles can you?

[Coolcat]

Is it... Is it really?

Out of quite a few thousand supporters, I reckon I'd struggle to fill a mini bus with those actively trying to oust KT.

The unfortunate truth is that we need a really bad season to see any groundswell of opinion on the anti KT front. If we get anywhere near promotion, the East Stand will fall straight off the supports agenda. It seems that those who are opposed to KT can make all the noise they like. All he has to do is sign a slightly above average player, and the support is putty in his hands.

Opportunities have been missed through poor advice.

Through all that, hardly see Vintage with a concerted effort to oust KT...more, valid reasons not to be hoodwinked by him and that toxic debts or not, the ball is in KT's court to get the (promised) East Stand completed before the council move forward.
Any debts (through investment of East Stand completion) become less toxic if there is revenue return, surely?

[Coolcat]

It may have gone un noticed to you but after 20 years suffering at the hands of land grabbing speculators, we barely attract 1.5% of Northampton town football clubs 300,000 exclusive catchment.
That has to be seen as the largest and most prolonged protest of all football league clubs during these past 20 golden years of footballs fashionable renaissance.
My one man 'Thomas out'  hill top protest will be in full swing V Walsall.

 

Is it true, you have a small band of militia, camped out in the Salcey Forest region? 

[Melbourne Cobbler]

All very interesting but by far the biggest question is not “shall we get rid of the chairman” but who is taking over, what are their credentials and what’s the plan? The only proposals I have heard so far are some sort of funded by profit/charitable donation scheme and well er, that’s about it? The trust are looking at possible options apparently, but as far and I can tell have nothing tangible to propose? That’s not a criticism by the way, just where they appear to be at this point in time. The strategy moving forward is absolutely everything, deciding you want to get rid of the current owners is almost irrelevant, and the easy bit. I know this should be self evident and I am stating the bleeding obvious to many, but that has to be where all the focus needs to be rather than continually banging on about the reasons why KT et al should go. I personally can’t see the council allowing any controversial decisions over land going through given the history of this saga, so hopefully that should take care of its self? However, at this point in time if Thomas goes or sells we are currently in the lap of the gods as to where we end up, just like we always have been. Some would have you believe that where the club is now is a disaster. A disaster would be starting again from the UCL in a ground share with Silby Rangers or similar. At this point in time that and the club progressing post KT are in my view equally possible, maybe even the former rather than the later being more likely? That’s my position anyway, and I can’t think of a workable solution to realistically solve the conundrum either, I really cant?

[Terryfenwickatemyhamster]

Through all that, hardly see Vintage with a concerted effort to oust KT...more, valid reasons not to be hoodwinked by him and that toxic debts or not, the ball is in KT's court to get the (promised) East Stand completed before the council move forward.
Any debts (through investment of East Stand completion) become less toxic if there is revenue return, surely?

The point remains the same. No matter which perspective you come from, in order to enforce your opinion, you need support. I have repeatedly sad the same thing throughout. It does not matter how you feel. The trick is convincing the majority of people, that you have a valid point.

At this point the vast majority of the support are still satisfied with what they are getting. Basic psychology dictates that telling people they are wrong, is more often than not counter productive. The best you can hope for by using that method, is to alienate them further, but against you.

Unfortunately football supporters are very fickle. And at this moment, KT has the Better of them psychologically. I put that down to his opponents handling themselves poorly, rather than him being some evil genius.

[Vintage Cobbler]

TFAMH - what I have described over the weekend as being in progress is accurate and current.  I think you know that very well.  I guess that if supporters only react when it is too late or are happy to leave it to others to deal with or just can’t be bothered then they will get what they deserve, a dysfunctional ground hemmed in on the east side by commercial development, owners who have made a big killing on the CDNL land combined with the final loss of land that could have been of significant benefit to the club.  The negative consequences for the club and us supporters must be clear to all.

The points you raise are valid but as one who has consistently challenged the likes of me and questioned frequently what us “keyboard warriors” are doing let me ask exactly the same of you.

And before you in return ask what I am doing other than posting on this site, I am actively supporting the Trust in its efforts on this issue.

[BedsCobb]

All very interesting but by far the biggest question is not “shall we get rid of the chairman” but who is taking over, what are their credentials and what’s the plan? The only proposals I have heard so far are some sort of funded by profit/charitable donation scheme and well er, that’s about it? The trust are looking at possible options apparently, but as far and I can tell have nothing tangible to propose? That’s not a criticism by the way, just where they appear to be at this point in time. The strategy moving forward is absolutely everything, deciding you want to get rid of the current owners is almost irrelevant, and the easy bit. I know this should be self evident and I am stating the bleeding obvious to many, but that has to be where all the focus needs to be rather than continually banging on about the reasons why KT et al should go. I personally can’t see the council allowing any controversial decisions over land going through given the history of this saga, so hopefully that should take care of its self? However, at this point in time if Thomas goes or sells we are currently in the lap of the gods as to where we end up, just like we always have been. Some would have you believe that where the club is now is a disaster. A disaster would be starting again from the UCL in a ground share with Silby Rangers or similar. At this point in time that and the club progressing post KT are in my view equally possible, maybe even the former rather than the later being more likely? That’s my position anyway, and I can’t think of a workable solution to realistically solve the conundrum either, I really cant?

You could ask the exact same questions of Thomas, who after 4 long error strewn years is devoid of plans as far as our football club is concerned and has not given a single clue as to his credentials in building up our football club.
So I say it doesn't matter who comes in to take over and run our club, just as long as the football club of Northampton is the main focal point and everything geared towards building a bright future.
Thomas isn't giving us that and needs to get gone.

[Terryfenwickatemyhamster]

TFAMH - what I have described over the weekend as being in progress is accurate and current.  I think you know that very well.  I guess that if supporters only react when it is too late or are happy to leave it to others to deal with or just can’t be bothered then they will get what they deserve, a dysfunctional ground hemmed in on the east side by commercial development, owners who have made a big killing on the CDNL land combined with the final loss of land that could have been of significant benefit to the club.  The negative consequences for the club and us supporters must be clear to all.

The points you raise are valid but as one who has consistently challenged the likes of me and questioned frequently what us “keyboard warriors” are doing let me ask exactly the same of you.

And before you in return ask what I am doing other than posting on this site, I am actively supporting the Trust in its efforts on this issue.

I am critical of the methods that are being employed, not of the overall sentiment. As much as it suits your agenda to personalise it, you'll be surprised to know that this isn't just about you or the Trust.  

You might have noted over a long period of time, that the Trust has only inflicted damage on itself, with it's join us or be damned attitude. Any organisation will have an hierarchy, there is nothing wrong with that. As members off the Trust we look to the board to navigate us through situations that could be detrimental to us as supporters in the long term. If as a members we choose sometimes to question that process, it is very difficult if you are only greeted with the standard join in or shut up mantra. I'm not surprised that you have now adopted that stance.

So in answer to your what am I doing question... What would you like me to do? How can I be of assistance?  

[Melbourne Cobbler]

You could ask the exact same questions of Thomas, who after 4 long error strewn years is devoid of plans as far as our football club is concerned and has not given a single clue as to his credentials in building up our football club.
So I say it doesn't matter who comes in to take over and run our club, just as long as the football club of Northampton is the main focal point and everything geared towards building a bright future.
Thomas isn't giving us that and needs to get gone.

Given that a) replacing Thomas is the subject of the debate and b) he has expressed an intention to sell, what would be the point of asking that of him on any level? Any time there are any points of debate raised you consistently devalue them by constantly attempting to shift focus onto your Thomas out agenda, and that serves your ego and Kelvin Thomas in that order and nothing more.

[Melbourne Cobbler]

I am no more in a position to oust KT than any other supporter. He will go only when he is ready to go.  That does not mean I think he is a good or even a competent owner.  The period of his ownership has been a major disappointment from a person who claims to be a “football man”.  I would say he is a man who has learned to make a decent living from football clubs but that is about it.  I think the chances on him earning a much bigger amount are not far away.  The losers look to me to be NTFC and, in particular, us the supporters.

TFAMH is right when he says the supporter base is not exactly rising up in arms but that is the nature of Cobblers supporters in that they have set the bar so low for generations that survival in L2 is seen as a success.  The club has not grown, it has little or no infrastructure and whilst down all these years the town has grown from a population in my youth of 100,000 to 230,000 today the number of supporters has not increased.  A massive opportunity has been missed over these years and there is every sign that this under-performing trend will continue.  One of the underlying reasons for this has to be the club’s ownership.  But supporters are not blameless.  They could and should make their voice heard louder at the sorry state of affairs unless that is they agree with KT’s comments in a club video on 15 March 2019 that “the club looks very healthy”.  That is not how I see things and that is a big understatement.

We can and should be doing much better on and off the pitch.  But that requires medium to long-term planning and a business model that works.  There is neither and responsibility for that has to be laid at the door of our owners. But they are not here for that purpose.  To use a football pun there is a much bigger goal in sight that will line their pockets but does nothing for the future of NTFC.  TFAMH is right when he says that it would take a poor performance from the team this season for the fans to turn en masse against KT.  He knows this and he is working hard to achieve his ambitions on the land behind the East Stand.  At present he remains the Pied Piper of Sixfields and undemanding and silent supporters are happily following him.

The saying goes that history repeats itself and we are very much in the same position with the present owners as we were with the previous owners in 2013-2014.  If that doesn’t send alarm bells ringing nothing will.  As in 2013-2014, the club is saddled with significant debt owing to the owners, the owners are planning to earn serious amounts of profit from the development of land behind the East Stand, the existing ground is suffering from a lack of improvement, our owners claim to be acting in the “best interests” of the club and many supporters believe that or want to believe that because the alternative is too difficult to contemplate.  

What I see staring us in the face is that KT is going to get his way on the land, the price of which will be him completing the East Stand.  Goodness only knows to what standard but there must be a major risk that it is a horrible mess. The Council cannot dictate what goes inside the stand and there appear to be no plans that show anything in detail. I doubt that any plans sufficient for a contractors and architects to start work exist.  That is why KT does not publish them. He wants no meaningful supporter involvement. His attitude is you will get what you are given.

In case it has escaped the attention of supporters what is in progress is as follows:

- KT is refusing to sign the legal document that would reinstate the NTFC/CDNL boundary to what it should have been if NBC had not made an error when granting the lease to CDNL.  We are not talking about a few feet.  The correct boundary is that if you draw a line in the middle of the running track area all the land on the East Stand should be NTFC’s leasehold interest.  KT having told supporters that the reinstatement of the boundary to what should be was the only reason holding up proceeding with the East Stand to completion now refuses to transfer back a significant area of land to NTFC.  It follows that if commercial development takes place on that land all the profit and any future income will go to CDNL.  If that doesn’t inflame supporters I guess nothing will.

- Once the go-ahead is given to KT and outline planning consent is obtained I think we can expect CDNL to be sold to a major developer and I expect the club will be sold for a nominal or low figure with the debt written off, not out of generosity but as a small price to pay for the much bigger profits earned or being earned on the CDNL land, land which was spirited away from NTFC in highly dubious circumstances, land which was and should be community land or if developed should be developed for the benefit of NTFC, its supporters and the wider community.  

The only group standing up to this is the Trust and yet many on here continue to snipe and sneer at its efforts whilst doing nothing themselves other than follow our Pied Piper.  You know the meaning of that fairy tale I hope.


 

VC, I have another question, it’s a genuine one and I have never really had any sort of logical response to it from anyone coming from your position. If this is really just about the land and there is a vast profit to be made from it, why did the Cardozas not embark on a land grab years before they left? If there really is a fast and easy few million to be made why did they walk away from the club and hand the deal on a plate to Thomas rather than exploit the opportunity themselves? If all that’s holding it up is the East Stand fiasco why didn’t the Cardozas engineer a position to aquire the land and planning before embarking on the “East Stand Project”. Additionally if as far as the Cardozas were concerned Macintosh was an ally or friendly individual (which he may not have been) how hard would it have been? If it was so straight forward and lucrative why didn’t the Cardozas do it? These are the things that I can’t get my head around when I talk about contradictions. I am not necessarily referring to anything you have stated?

[Terryfenwickatemyhamster]

Given that a) replacing Thomas is the subject of the debate and b) he has expressed an intention to sell, what would be the point of asking that of him on any level? Any time there are any points of debate raised you consistently devalue them by constantly attempting to shift focus onto your Thomas out agenda, and that serves your ego and Kelvin Thomas in that order and nothing more.

KT will definitely sell. Any one will sell. But it is meeting their asking price. There is someone in negotiations with him at the moment.

[DrillingCobbler]

KT will definitely sell. Any one will sell. But it is meeting their asking price. There is someone in negotiations with him at the moment.

Does he share the same first name with a big fat ex boro manager? 

[Vintage Cobbler]

VC, I have another question, it’s a genuine one and I have never really had any sort of logical response to it from anyone coming from your position. If this is really just about the land and there is a vast profit to be made from it, why did the Cardozas not embark on a land grab years before they left? If there really is a fast and easy few million to be made why did they walk away from the club and hand the deal on a plate to Thomas rather than exploit the opportunity themselves? If all that’s holding it up is the East Stand fiasco why didn’t the Cardozas engineer a position to aquire the land and planning before embarking on the “East Stand Project”. Additionally if as far as the Cardozas were concerned Macintosh was an ally or friendly individual (which he may not have been) how hard would it have been? If it was so straight forward and lucrative why didn’t the Cardozas do it? These are the things that I can’t get my head around when I talk about contradictions. I am not necessarily referring to anything you have stated?

VC, I have another question, it’s a genuine one and I have never really had any sort of logical response to it from anyone coming from your position. If this is really just about the land and there is a vast profit to be made from it, why did the Cardozas not embark on a land grab years before they left? If there really is a fast and easy few million to be made why did they walk away from the club and hand the deal on a plate to Thomas rather than exploit the opportunity themselves? If all that’s holding it up is the East Stand fiasco why didn’t the Cardozas engineer a position to aquire the land and planning before embarking on the “East Stand Project”. Additionally if as far as the Cardozas were concerned Macintosh was an ally or friendly individual (which he may not have been) how hard would it have been? If it was so straight forward and lucrative why didn’t the Cardozas do it? These are the things that I can’t get my head around when I talk about contradictions. I am not necessarily referring to anything you have stated?


MC, I can only comment on this forum openly about matters which are in the public domain and I am sure you will appreciate the reasons for that.  Some of what I will state in my reply is my own opinion and you are free to agree or disagree.  After all this is what this site is meant to be about although at times I wonder.  I don’t how much you know but, if I may say so, I need to remove a few misconceptions in your questions to me.

Much as the Cardozas may have had their eyes on the land from Day 1 when they arrived in 2003 the circumstances were not right and from their perspective the right decision makers in NBC were not in place.  Remember the Cardozas are not property developers. Tony Cardoza had made his money, apparently, from stock broking and David had followed suit.  Tony was the money man, not his son.  Also remember in the period 2003-2013 political control of NBC had alternated between the Conservatives, Labour and the LibDems.  The land which NTFC held under a 150 years lease was restricted to sports use and I don’t think what was/is in effect community land was ever going to be released by a Labour or LibDem administration for commercial development with attendant private profits.  The only possibility was with a Conservative controlled council and then only in certain circumstances.  Further, for a long period in the first decade of the millennium there was a public consultation with a Government quango called the West Northants Development Corporation in which planning strategy/authority was vested rather than NBC and which soaked up a lot of time and effort and went absolutely nowhere.  I recall massive frustration all round and that included the Cardozas.  Roll forward to 2012- WNDC transfers planning powers back to NBC and the Tories are back in control of NBC and the Leader is Mackintosh.  Also around about this time Grossman and Patrick arrived on the scene and all these people come together. WNDC was dissolved in 2014. 

In 2013 the leasehold land held by NTFC was divided with the result that most of the area behind the East Stand was severed from the NTFC lease and transferred for no money to CDNL.  On the same date a new lease was granted to CDNL a second agreement was entered into between NBC and CDNL under which on the award of “satisfactory planning permission” CDNL would buy the freehold for £5million (later increased to £6million).  In the division of the land NBC made an error in the drawing of the boundary about which I commented over the past weekend.

The Cardozas did not walk away from the club, the lid had come off the can of worms that was their deal with Grossman etc., the players in the had fallen out and to this day the police continue to investigate the scandal.  £10.25 million of public money was largely unaccounted for and that remains the case.  The Cardozas were forced out.  The only company with possible value in it, CDNL, was placed in compulsory liquidation by the unpaid East Stand contractor, Buckingham Group.  The Cardozas did not “hand the deal on a plate to Thomas” voluntarily. They had to go and they must have known that there would be a major investigation and legal actions.  Once the lid came off there was no way they could or would be allowed to exploit the CDNL opportunity, the more so when you remember the traumatised NBC is the freeholder and the local planning authority.

So, our current owners moved in and a totally deficient NBC allowed them to acquire CDNL (which has one asset a lease for 150 years from the Council) from the liquidators for about £170,000. Ownership is split 50/50 between KT and DB.  DB is a highly experienced solicitor but, more important, a successful property developer. 

 

[Manwork04]

Seriously Tel and Melbourne et al, Vintage is making you look like a bit silly now, neither of you is stupid and I think you both know full well how things are regards our current position.
Stop the love in with KT and join the people who really care about our club.

[GrangeParkCobbler]

Melbourne.......are you forgetting that the Cardozas did try to engineer a land grab, just that it was different land!! They entered into a partnership with LxB which saw LxB buying up the land surrounding the stadium and which would have, if it had come to fruition, provided enabling monies to redevelop the stadium.

This from 2007      https://northampton.vitalfootball.co.uk/a-plot-to-rival-the-godfather/

This from 2008      https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/sixfields-saga-cobblers-issue-statement-on-the-truth-1-946596

This from 2009      http://planning.northampton.gov.uk/Councillors/ieIssueDetails.aspx?IId=31420&Opt=3


Same sort of scheme, just different land!

For one reason or another nothing happened, and LxB went off to play a part in the initial planning and development of the Rushden Lakes complex.

As Vintage says, the other land was protected by the Council.....as per the item above showing the minutes of the meeting (interesting that the Athletics Stadium was also protected at that time), eventually the Council changed hands, WNDC ceased to be, the issues surrounding the land were relaxed and the Club entered into a partnership with the Council....the money came via the Council and the rest is history.

[Terryfenwickatemyhamster]

Seriously Tel and Melbourne et al, Vintage is making you look like a bit silly now, neither of you is stupid and I think you both know full well how things are regards our current position.
Stop the love in with KT and join the people who really care about our club.

Show me one post that suggests that “love in” you mention. Go for it.  

I get bored of telling you and everyone else that I am open to anything that is good for the Cobblers. Despite all of the talking, I am yet to see anything. If stating that as the truth is interpreted as a “love in” then so be it. The Trust and any other interested party (including KT) have done about as much for NTFC as my cat as at the moment. The time is as good as any for at least one of the parties to stop talking and get the fcuk on with it.

Tell me Manwork, because I don't have you down as stupid either. Name one tangible thing you have seen from anywhere? At the moment all I see is more hollow words. And a fcuking lot of them 😁😁😁