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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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GrangeParkCobbler
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« Reply #25900 on: December 05, 2019, 09:49:09 am »

And KT did say in his "takeover interview" on the BBC that other parties had come out at the last minute after seeing the deal that KT and DB had managed to pull together...ie the Cardozas writing off the debt, the Council writing off the debt, and the only initial outlay being the payment of the outstanding HMRC bill.
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« Reply #25901 on: December 05, 2019, 11:16:51 am »

Isn’t that exactly what enabling development is meant to be? I’m just bored of it all now.
Well , the two groups I know that expressed an interest in the sale had no interest in the football club whatsoever .
It’s about the land and only the land . The east stand and debt came as part of it .
There is no reason why the club couldn’t be run as a going concern by someone else once those issues were resolved . Everyone is then happy - the developer , the board and the supporters .....
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« Reply #25902 on: December 05, 2019, 11:44:01 am »


Rather than bicker amongst ourselves all of our attention should be directed at the failure of our owners to do what they said they would do. 

The following is from the Chronicle on 26 November 2015, the day after the KT led group took over control of the club:

“He (KT) said he and his investors intend to plough £4 million init the club in total, which would fund the rest of what has been previously reported as his “ambitious” plans for the East Stand development.”

In the same article KT is quoted as saying:

"This is a football club that has the opportunity to expand with a new stadium.”

4 years later………………………

I think the key part there is "in total". It doesn't say that £4m has been ringfenced for the sole purpose of finishing the East Stand, which is what keeps getting touted around. Was that ever actually said? I seem to remember hearing it at some point too but it's entirely possible it was just misquoted from the article Vintage references here and has apocryphally become "a truth universally acknowledged".

Either way, KT and DB's critics are keen to point out that not only have they not finished the East Stand, they've saddled the club with £5m of debt in the form of director's loans. When you take this in tandem with what they originally said they'd plough into the club "in total" then it would appear they've actually spent considerably more on running the club than they originally planned to do! (or course, whether that money has been well spent is a different matter entirely...)
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« Reply #25903 on: December 05, 2019, 15:05:07 pm »

I think the key part there is "in total". It doesn't say that £4m has been ringfenced for the sole purpose of finishing the East Stand, which is what keeps getting touted around. Was that ever actually said? I seem to remember hearing it at some point too but it's entirely possible it was just misquoted from the article Vintage references here and has apocryphally become "a truth universally acknowledged".

Either way, KT and DB's critics are keen to point out that not only have they not finished the East Stand, they've saddled the club with £5m of debt in the form of director's loans. When you take this in tandem with what they originally said they'd plough into the club "in total" then it would appear they've actually spent considerably more on running the club than they originally planned to do! (or course, whether that money has been well spent is a different matter entirely...)
Those fans falling at his feet in a meet and greet shortly after he took over were left in no doubt he was fitting out the east stand...
Also at no time did he suggest he would drag the arse out of it for 5 years while spending nothing on the infrastructure,  get the club relegated and smash £5 plus millions into the clubs debt column either...
For me the end of the road for Thomas as one who can be taken serious as a football club chairman went after the 2nd month of him being in charge.
What's most surprising is, over 4 years later he's still here but keeping a very low profile these days Grin
Grin
Must be time for an update, eh chemical?
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« Reply #25904 on: December 05, 2019, 18:25:57 pm »

The bulk of the debt was brought in following the splurge of signings from July 2017 onwards (think Crooks, Facey, Turnbull, Van Veen, Bunney all on long term contracts) and then when Edinburgh was sacked and a big name was brought in to appease the Chinese backers. Hasselbaink wasn't cheap!!

The money from 5U never materialised and Bower loaned the club £2.5m through Belle De Jour

Nobody at the club has ever said what actually went wrong with the 5USports deal.......but in essence the club spunked the money in the hope or expectation that investment was coming....and it never did!
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« Reply #25905 on: December 05, 2019, 19:54:50 pm »

The bulk of the debt was brought in following the splurge of signings from July 2017 onwards (think Crooks, Facey, Turnbull, Van Veen, Bunney all on long term contracts) and then when Edinburgh was sacked and a big name was brought in to appease the Chinese backers. Hasselbaink wasn't cheap!!

The money from 5U never materialised and Bower loaned the club £2.5m through Belle De Jour

Nobody at the club has ever said what actually went wrong with the 5USports deal.......but in essence the club spunked the money in the hope or expectation that investment was coming....and it never did!

That's exactly how I see it.
Over £1m+ was spent putting the seats back into the East Stand, upgrades to the West stand such as the toilets, changing facilities for players and officials, club offices, shop and computer systems. Then the Chinese deal collapsed leaving Thomas and Bower with their fingers burned, a bit like the Council before them. The £5m+ debts are in effect monies that KT and DB owe to themselves.
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« Reply #25906 on: December 05, 2019, 19:59:53 pm »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertkidd/2018/09/20/soccer-clubs-ask-fans-for-investment-but-promise-financial-return/
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« Reply #25907 on: December 05, 2019, 20:08:54 pm »

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/16184742.2017.1279203?scroll=top&needAccess=true&journalCode=resm20
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« Reply #25908 on: December 05, 2019, 20:23:17 pm »

I mean, after the previous capital was stolen, would you want to invest your money in an unsecured bond?
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« Reply #25909 on: December 05, 2019, 21:52:17 pm »

That's exactly how I see it.
Over £1m+ was spent putting the seats back into the East Stand, upgrades to the West stand such as the toilets, changing facilities for players and officials, club offices, shop and computer systems. Then the Chinese deal collapsed leaving Thomas and Bower with their fingers burned, a bit like the Council before them. The £5m+ debts are in effect monies that KT and DB owe to themselves.
it costs £60k to purchase and fit 1400 plastic seats. I remember at the time hearing it cost £250,000 from the club, causing my in built bull5hitometer to go off the scale.
For 1 million you could fit a dozen boxes and several hundred grand more for a basic shell fit out.
Just for clarity it would cost for a modest construction,
£2 m to expand the ground by 3000 to allow it to compete in L1. All that totals 1 James Collins or 2 john Marquis or an 1/8th of Ivan Toney.
Hope that helps.

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« Reply #25910 on: December 05, 2019, 22:31:09 pm »

it costs £60k to purchase and fit 1400 plastic seats. I remember at the time hearing it cost £250,000 from the club, causing my in built bull5hitometer to go off the scale.
For 1 million you could fit a dozen boxes and several hundred grand more for a basic shell fit out.
Just for clarity it would cost for a modest construction,
£2 m to expand the ground by 3000 to allow it to compete in L1. All that totals 1 James Collins or 2 john Marquis or an 1/8th of Ivan Toney.
Hope that helps.



Can you actually read before waffling?
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« Reply #25911 on: December 05, 2019, 22:45:51 pm »

it costs £60k to purchase and fit 1400 plastic seats. I remember at the time hearing it cost £250,000 from the club, causing my in built bull5hitometer to go off the scale.
For 1 million you could fit a dozen boxes and several hundred grand more for a basic shell fit out.
Just for clarity it would cost for a modest construction,
£2 m to expand the ground by 3000 to allow it to compete in L1. All that totals 1 James Collins or 2 john Marquis or an 1/8th of Ivan Toney.
Hope that helps.



Here we go again. "Figures from my arse" by BedsCobb. ISBN 000000000005H1T
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« Reply #25912 on: December 06, 2019, 04:52:51 am »

it costs £60k to purchase and fit 1400 plastic seats. I remember at the time hearing it cost £250,000 from the club, causing my in built bull5hitometer to go off the scale.
For 1 million you could fit a dozen boxes and several hundred grand more for a basic shell fit out.
Just for clarity it would cost for a modest construction,
£2 m to expand the ground by 3000 to allow it to compete in L1. All that totals 1 James Collins or 2 john Marquis or an 1/8th of Ivan Toney.
Hope that helps.


Sorry where, a few years ago, did you post we should keep Collins, Marquis and Toney because they would be worth millions?............................or are you talking in the oh so wise hindsight!!!

Although I do ask, after being told by KT that he is making 'good progress with the Council', when is he confirming the timeline for his previously stated expansion?
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« Reply #25913 on: December 06, 2019, 13:48:23 pm »

Sorry where, a few years ago, did you post we should keep Collins, Marquis and Toney because they would be worth millions?............................or are you talking in the oh so wise hindsight!!!

Although I do ask, after being told by KT that he is making 'good progress with the Council', when is he confirming the timeline for his previously stated expansion?
There is not 1 fan of ntfc who didn't want Marquis or Collins to sign and they most certainly didn't want to see local talent flogged on the cheap.
It isnt hindsight just common sense, which is a commodity in short supply these past 20 years.
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« Reply #25914 on: December 06, 2019, 14:58:42 pm »

There is not 1 fan of ntfc who didn't want Marquis or Collins to sign and they most certainly didn't want to see local talent flogged on the cheap.
It isnt hindsight just common sense, which is a commodity in short supply these past 20 years.
Wrong again Beds, 'not 1 fan'? Most of our group said AND POSTED that they were good but we were not over eager to sign them. They have done better since but we have no problem saying IN HINDSIGHT we maybe were wrong.

OPINIONS not facts, something you struggle with!!!
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« Reply #25915 on: December 06, 2019, 15:23:05 pm »

Let’s focus on what matters.  There has been no tangible evidence of any progress with the club’s infrastructure, notably the East Stand, for over 4 years of the current ownership. Every now and again KT trots out stuff about “progress” with NBC.  What, when, how we may ask but all we get is obfuscation from our owners.

The same old questions remain unanswered including;

-   what are the plans for the East Stand?  Remember NBC has said that KT has never even discussed the East Stand plans with it but only talks about his aspirations for the wider development on the land beyond the back of the East Stand.

⁃   why doesn’t KT publish the East Stand plans?  Is it because the plans are inadequate and could not be used by a contractor to commence works? Is non-disclosure because KT has no intention of finishing the stand but is making the occasional noises to keep supporters quiet whilst looking to sell CDNL when the right offer comes?

-   what was the deal struck with Buckingham Group for the East Stand and any wider works that pathed the way for DB/KT to get control of CDNL?

-   when is a planning application going to be submitted for the wider development?  Surely, with all this waffle about “progress” that happy stage has been reached.

-   To what extent (if any) is the football club going to share in the financial benefits of the wider development.  In other words, on what financial and legal terms did KT/DB transfer their shares in CDNL to NTFC? 

Note: nothing on CDNL’s records at Companies House shows any change of control has taken place.

-   Will all the development profits go to KT/DB’s corporate vehicles as the 84% shareholders in NTFC, first in repaying the “debt” of £5million + and then anything on top going to Ventures and the Belle de Jour? 

-   Where did any funds invested by 5USport find a home? Nothing is recorded on the balance sheet of Ventures or NTFC but for 9 months the Chinese had a controlling interest in Ventures and, therefore, of the football club and a majority of directors on the immediate holding company’s board (Ventures).  Is it feasible that those hard-nosed experienced  businessmen DB/KT, who have demonstrated their guile in running rings around NBC over the East Stand and by acquiring CDNL from under the Council’s nose, were duped by people with whom they had no previous dealings and gave up majority control of Ventures/NTFC without any money changing hands?  Then, having been conned, KT/DB decided to dig deep into their own pockets in a failed attempt to stay in L1?  Does this philanthropy fit with the fact that the money man DB has shown his commitment to NTFC by attending about 4 matches at Sixfields in 4 years and our leader KT turns up at the club once or twice a month? Such is their love of NTFC.

-   Is it all about football and nothing about development profits? 

-   Is the DB/KT master plan to get the “green light” from NBC, secure outline planning consent from NBC or be given “sellable” assurances and then sell CDNL to another developer leaving the club with an unfinished stand and the “debt” owing to our owners’ companies, including the opaque offshore Belle De Jour Ltd, cleared and our owners exiting NTFC?

KT could easily answer all of these questions but he continues with his smoke and mirrors act and he is being allowed by our supporters to get away with it.  KT never says anything of substance, never faces the supporters but we allow him to get away with it and just argue amongst ourselves. We are cannon fodder and mugs.
 

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« Reply #25916 on: December 06, 2019, 16:21:05 pm »

Excellent post Vintage, so many questions and never any answers!

I doubt that 98% of the fanbase are bothered though.....as long as results on the pitch are half decent then that gives then their weekly/fortnightly fix of football and they don't worry about anything else!

The club keeps paying the wages (didn't happen at the end of the Cardoza tenure) and the club keeps paying the taxman (didn't happen at the end of the Cardoza tenure) so there is no "news".....no awareness of what is or isn't going on in the background.

As another League club teeters on the brink of extinction its worth pointing out here that Macclesfields liabilities according to their latest filed accounts amount to a shade under £800,000 whereas our liabilities are more than 3 times that amount (£2.411 million)

Still, as long as we don't stop paying the bills we're ok, or as long as DB doesn't run out of money we're fine, or as long as he doesn't just decide to pull the plug there's nothing to worry about.

If any one of those three things happen though.........
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« Reply #25917 on: December 06, 2019, 17:03:53 pm »

Got to agree with GPC. An excellent inquiring common sense post from Vintage.
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« Reply #25918 on: December 06, 2019, 17:11:21 pm »

Let’s focus on what matters.  There has been no tangible evidence of any progress with the club’s infrastructure, notably the East Stand, for over 4 years of the current ownership. Every now and again KT trots out stuff about “progress” with NBC.  What, when, how we may ask but all we get is obfuscation from our owners.

The same old questions remain unanswered including;

-   what are the plans for the East Stand?  Remember NBC has said that KT has never even discussed the East Stand plans with it but only talks about his aspirations for the wider development on the land beyond the back of the East Stand.

⁃   why doesn’t KT publish the East Stand plans?  Is it because the plans are inadequate and could not be used by a contractor to commence works? Is non-disclosure because KT has no intention of finishing the stand but is making the occasional noises to keep supporters quiet whilst looking to sell CDNL when the right offer comes?

-   what was the deal struck with Buckingham Group for the East Stand and any wider works that pathed the way for DB/KT to get control of CDNL?

-   when is a planning application going to be submitted for the wider development?  Surely, with all this waffle about “progress” that happy stage has been reached.

-   To what extent (if any) is the football club going to share in the financial benefits of the wider development.  In other words, on what financial and legal terms did KT/DB transfer their shares in CDNL to NTFC? 

Note: nothing on CDNL’s records at Companies House shows any change of control has taken place.

-   Will all the development profits go to KT/DB’s corporate vehicles as the 84% shareholders in NTFC, first in repaying the “debt” of £5million + and then anything on top going to Ventures and the Belle de Jour? 

-   Where did any funds invested by 5USport find a home? Nothing is recorded on the balance sheet of Ventures or NTFC but for 9 months the Chinese had a controlling interest in Ventures and, therefore, of the football club and a majority of directors on the immediate holding company’s board (Ventures).  Is it feasible that those hard-nosed experienced  businessmen DB/KT, who have demonstrated their guile in running rings around NBC over the East Stand and by acquiring CDNL from under the Council’s nose, were duped by people with whom they had no previous dealings and gave up majority control of Ventures/NTFC without any money changing hands?  Then, having been conned, KT/DB decided to dig deep into their own pockets in a failed attempt to stay in L1?  Does this philanthropy fit with the fact that the money man DB has shown his commitment to NTFC by attending about 4 matches at Sixfields in 4 years and our leader KT turns up at the club once or twice a month? Such is their love of NTFC.

-   Is it all about football and nothing about development profits? 

-   Is the DB/KT master plan to get the “green light” from NBC, secure outline planning consent from NBC or be given “sellable” assurances and then sell CDNL to another developer leaving the club with an unfinished stand and the “debt” owing to our owners’ companies, including the opaque offshore Belle De Jour Ltd, cleared and our owners exiting NTFC?

KT could easily answer all of these questions but he continues with his smoke and mirrors act and he is being allowed by our supporters to get away with it.  KT never says anything of substance, never faces the supporters but we allow him to get away with it and just argue amongst ourselves. We are cannon fodder and mugs.
 



This should be forwarded to KT's email address.
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« Reply #25919 on: December 06, 2019, 17:15:29 pm »


As another League club teeters on the brink of extinction its worth pointing out here that Macclesfields liabilities according to their latest filed accounts amount to a shade under £800,000 whereas our liabilities are more than 3 times that amount (£2.411 million)
Macclesfield are deep in the s***e.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50690408






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