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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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« Reply #25920 on: December 06, 2019, 17:28:24 pm »

What on earth has  that got to do with our matters?  Stay on topic.
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« Reply #25921 on: December 06, 2019, 17:51:58 pm »

What on earth has  that got to do with our matters?  Stay on topic.
In case you dont recall, we came very close to going under. High Court and all that. I dont think that discussing other clubs plight, is straying too far "off topic". That could have been us.
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« Reply #25922 on: December 06, 2019, 18:04:24 pm »

Pathetic. Do we kiss KT''s backside? See above and get real.
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« Reply #25923 on: December 06, 2019, 18:47:36 pm »

Pathetic. Do we kiss KT''s backside? See above and get real.

What? Have I missed something?
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« Reply #25924 on: December 06, 2019, 18:54:11 pm »

No, just get back to the main issue which I have set out at some length above and don't be distracted bu events at Macclesfield which is a side show to us at NTFC.
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« Reply #25925 on: December 06, 2019, 19:56:33 pm »

Thomas has proved what his reason for being at our club is, and that's not the long term future of our club that allows it to progress.... So that makes him a spent force as a bonafide chairman..
The only questions needing asking is, what is his exit strategy,  how far does he think he can hold our club to ransom with the council, now they see him for what he is.. Cardoza was over 12 years!
We all , or should now know Thomas will not lay one brick in the East,  he has a £5m plus convenient grip on us.. so with so many unanswered questions and failures to produce what he 'suggested' he would do, has now made his tenure impossible ..
Only the very innocent and easily convinced will still listen to a word uttered by him.
GHTFO of our club.
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« Reply #25926 on: December 06, 2019, 21:14:38 pm »

Don’t really comment on here much these days, mainly because not much new happens and no one ever changes position. To reiterate, it’s all quite simple really. The development of the East Stand is not happening because at this point in time it’s far too great a risk financially to do so. Of course this view is subjective and there are circumstances where if certain unlikely events happened it might work. However, my view is you would have to be off your nut to entertain the idea from a financial perspective. In my opinion that is the reason the development is not happening, the current incumbents simply cannot make any reasonable justification for it. The issue is most of the support base believe they were led to believe otherwise, so the club was acquired under false pretences. No one at the club has come outright and said this, so the endless procrastination goes on. I’ll say it again, it is almost certain that the development of the ground isn’t going to happen and won’t until the financial hurdles are addressed. My guess is that probably means promotion to the Championship. How that makes you feel about KT is entirely another question? However, don’t assume the next individual on the throne will solve this conundrum, because the problem remains the same. To develop the ground someone or some entity needs to gift the money, because it isn’t an investment opportunity that offers any sort of reasonable level of risk attached. All the other facts and opinions put up on here are just internet chatter, this is the only real fear that is driving this continuing stalemate. IMO of course.
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« Reply #25927 on: December 06, 2019, 21:31:22 pm »

By the way, to also repeat if the current lot have chucked 5 mil into the pot it’s not worth the paper it’s written on. The only way they will get that back is if someone buys the club for that amount or they sell an asset like the land or player. They have promised that any sale of the land would benefit the club. Could you argue that clearing their loan to the club is a benefit? Think about it, I imagine most people took that as some sort of assurance the club would get the money to develop the ground and lord it up in the championship. If that was the assumption you must be on drugs?
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« Reply #25928 on: December 06, 2019, 22:49:52 pm »

Don’t really comment on here much these days, mainly because not much new happens and no one ever changes position. To reiterate, it’s all quite simple really. The development of the East Stand is not happening because at this point in time it’s far too great a risk financially to do so. Of course this view is subjective and there are circumstances where if certain unlikely events happened it might work. However, my view is you would have to be off your nut to entertain the idea from a financial perspective. In my opinion that is the reason the development is not happening, the current incumbents simply cannot make any reasonable justification for it. The issue is most of the support base believe they were led to believe otherwise, so the club was acquired under false pretences. No one at the club has come outright and said this, so the endless procrastination goes on. I’ll say it again, it is almost certain that the development of the ground isn’t going to happen and won’t until the financial hurdles are addressed. My guess is that probably means promotion to the Championship. How that makes you feel about KT is entirely another question? However, don’t assume the next individual on the throne will solve this conundrum, because the problem remains the same. To develop the ground someone or some entity needs to gift the money, because it isn’t an investment opportunity that offers any sort of reasonable level of risk attached. All the other facts and opinions put up on here are just internet chatter, this is the only real fear that is driving this continuing stalemate. IMO of course.

Hang on a minute.......we were all told that the club needed to develop the facilities, provide executive boxes, meeting rooms, conference suites and suchlike to turn the football club into a 24/7 business, and from the proceeds of that, the increased corporate revenue, it would be that which could be used to propel us up the leagues.

You are saying that we don't need that or there is no justification for such facilities until we reach the Championship??

I agree that development of the ground purely to increase capacity is not required at this stage, nor would it be cost effective, but this was never about stadium capacity.

For what its worth I don't believe that boxes, suites and rooms would provide that much money anyway, and would take a good few years just to pay for themselves in any case.

The fact is though we are not getting what we were told we were getting. And nothing has happened for a good few years now.

As for the £5m paper debt.....as someone pointed out, unless Bower and Thomas are willing to waive that then that is the selling price for the club.....£5m for a fourth division football club with no assets and scant facilities playing in a leased and half developed stadium.......not very attractive is it? So to dismiss the figure as inconsequential is barmy!

If there was no debt and someone could come in with a pound and snap us up then I think that would be a more reasonable price based on what they'd be getting for their money!
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« Reply #25929 on: December 07, 2019, 00:14:44 am »

Nigel are you having a meltdown ? You seem to try to pick an argument with certain posters whatever they post. You know very well that KT said he had "£4M Ringfenced" to complete the East and that was one of the reasons he was able to buy the club for the figure he did.
    You also know that there were others who wanted it, I think KT himself was quoted that there would have been a queue of people willing to buy NTFC with the deal he got.
     Also, whilst I'm posting, could you provide evidence of your statement "the Trust  genuinely believe by repeating the same thing, that you are part of the solution"    Smiley

   

Let's hear it then mate.. Spill the beans. Who else was in the frame???  The much fabled LOCAL CONSORTUIM”.  Grin Grin

Admittedly I was wrong when I sad the Trust repeat the same thing over and over again whilst doing nothing... They have their proxy chairman.. Good old Vintage doing it for them instead these days.  Grin

We all know the problem. We’ve all heard the same questions spewed out a million times. But nobody comes up with a solution. In that respect we are all equally stumped.

Sometimes the truth is a very bitter pill to swallow. But you know as well as me Roger. Trusts are fine in war, but pointless in peace. Whether you like it or not. The Trust will not get so much as a fleeting glance until the buckets are out. Then they will be summarily dismissed as soon as the next promising Saville Row suit offers the moon on a stick... I can only offer up the world we live in every day. Not some Phoenix rising out of the back rooms of a limping working men’s club. But the real world of shifting money and truths. Where years of loyalty count for nothing next to a pipe dream promise or a decent run of wins......







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« Reply #25930 on: December 07, 2019, 05:37:30 am »

Hang on a minute.......we were all told that the club needed to develop the facilities, provide executive boxes, meeting rooms, conference suites and suchlike to turn the football club into a 24/7 business, and from the proceeds of that, the increased corporate revenue, it would be that which could be used to propel us up the leagues.

You are saying that we don't need that or there is no justification for such facilities until we reach the Championship??

I agree that development of the ground purely to increase capacity is not required at this stage, nor would it be cost effective, but this was never about stadium capacity.

For what its worth I don't believe that boxes, suites and rooms would provide that much money anyway, and would take a good few years just to pay for themselves in any case.

The fact is though we are not getting what we were told we were getting. And nothing has happened for a good few years now.

As for the £5m paper debt.....as someone pointed out, unless Bower and Thomas are willing to waive that then that is the selling price for the club.....£5m for a fourth division football club with no assets and scant facilities playing in a leased and half developed stadium.......not very attractive is it? So to dismiss the figure as inconsequential is barmy!

If there was no debt and someone could come in with a pound and snap us up then I think that would be a more reasonable price based on what they'd be getting for their money!
I’m not saying anything really GPC, just my opinion on the financial viability of redevelopment. KTs actions since taking over are an entirely different matter. And before anyone gets their knickers in a twist I might well be wrong? As for the paper debt being irrelevant, speaking as someone in the position it is. Anytime I have brought a business I have paid what I think it’s worth, I couldn’t give a stuff what the owners may or may not have chucked in, and neither will anyone else.
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« Reply #25931 on: December 07, 2019, 08:20:43 am »

Let’s focus on what matters.  There has been no tangible evidence of any progress with the club’s infrastructure, notably the East Stand, for over 4 years of the current ownership. Every now and again KT trots out stuff about “progress” with NBC.  What, when, how we may ask but all we get is obfuscation from our owners.

The same old questions remain unanswered including;

-   what are the plans for the East Stand?  Remember NBC has said that KT has never even discussed the East Stand plans with it but only talks about his aspirations for the wider development on the land beyond the back of the East Stand.

⁃   why doesn’t KT publish the East Stand plans?  Is it because the plans are inadequate and could not be used by a contractor to commence works? Is non-disclosure because KT has no intention of finishing the stand but is making the occasional noises to keep supporters quiet whilst looking to sell CDNL when the right offer comes?

-   what was the deal struck with Buckingham Group for the East Stand and any wider works that pathed the way for DB/KT to get control of CDNL?

-   when is a planning application going to be submitted for the wider development?  Surely, with all this waffle about “progress” that happy stage has been reached.

-   To what extent (if any) is the football club going to share in the financial benefits of the wider development.  In other words, on what financial and legal terms did KT/DB transfer their shares in CDNL to NTFC? 

Note: nothing on CDNL’s records at Companies House shows any change of control has taken place.

-   Will all the development profits go to KT/DB’s corporate vehicles as the 84% shareholders in NTFC, first in repaying the “debt” of £5million + and then anything on top going to Ventures and the Belle de Jour? 

-   Where did any funds invested by 5USport find a home? Nothing is recorded on the balance sheet of Ventures or NTFC but for 9 months the Chinese had a controlling interest in Ventures and, therefore, of the football club and a majority of directors on the immediate holding company’s board (Ventures).  Is it feasible that those hard-nosed experienced  businessmen DB/KT, who have demonstrated their guile in running rings around NBC over the East Stand and by acquiring CDNL from under the Council’s nose, were duped by people with whom they had no previous dealings and gave up majority control of Ventures/NTFC without any money changing hands?  Then, having been conned, KT/DB decided to dig deep into their own pockets in a failed attempt to stay in L1?  Does this philanthropy fit with the fact that the money man DB has shown his commitment to NTFC by attending about 4 matches at Sixfields in 4 years and our leader KT turns up at the club once or twice a month? Such is their love of NTFC.

-   Is it all about football and nothing about development profits? 

-   Is the DB/KT master plan to get the “green light” from NBC, secure outline planning consent from NBC or be given “sellable” assurances and then sell CDNL to another developer leaving the club with an unfinished stand and the “debt” owing to our owners’ companies, including the opaque offshore Belle De Jour Ltd, cleared and our owners exiting NTFC?

KT could easily answer all of these questions but he continues with his smoke and mirrors act and he is being allowed by our supporters to get away with it.  KT never says anything of substance, never faces the supporters but we allow him to get away with it and just argue amongst ourselves. We are cannon fodder and mugs.
 



Sorry.... Still don’t know.



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« Reply #25932 on: December 07, 2019, 09:24:29 am »

Don’t really comment on here much these days, mainly because not much new happens and no one ever changes position. To reiterate, it’s all quite simple really. The development of the East Stand is not happening because at this point in time it’s far too great a risk financially to do so. Of course this view is subjective and there are circumstances where if certain unlikely events happened it might work. However, my view is you would have to be off your nut to entertain the idea from a financial perspective. In my opinion that is the reason the development is not happening, the current incumbents simply cannot make any reasonable justification for it. The issue is most of the support base believe they were led to believe otherwise, so the club was acquired under false pretences. No one at the club has come outright and said this, so the endless procrastination goes on. I’ll say it again, it is almost certain that the development of the ground isn’t going to happen and won’t until the financial hurdles are addressed. My guess is that probably means promotion to the Championship. How that makes you feel about KT is entirely another question? However, don’t assume the next individual on the throne will solve this conundrum, because the problem remains the same. To develop the ground someone or some entity needs to gift the money, because it isn’t an investment opportunity that offers any sort of reasonable level of risk attached. All the other facts and opinions put up on here are just internet chatter, this is the only real fear that is driving this continuing stalemate. IMO of course.

This is absolutely not the case at all. When KT came in he could not have been clearer his intention was to 'complete' the east stand and this was certainly a factor in the council waving the 10 million debt. The level to which it is developed may be significant but it still needs finishing. Wilder on more than one occasion said he was sick of staring at a building site and so are the rest of us. The £5 million they burned was due to a large extent by the chinese debacle, a business blunder of the highest order.
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« Reply #25933 on: December 07, 2019, 09:31:02 am »

I’m not saying anything really GPC, just my opinion on the financial viability of redevelopment. KTs actions since taking over are an entirely different matter. And before anyone gets their knickers in a twist I might well be wrong? As for the paper debt being irrelevant, speaking as someone in the position it is. Anytime I have brought a business I have paid what I think it’s worth, I couldn’t give a stuff what the owners may or may not have chucked in, and neither will anyone else.

Well there you go, you’ve proved my point! If the Cobblers really are ‘up for sale’ and have been for a while now, KT and DB might want £6m based on the amount of loans (their money) that the club is saddled with.
Is the club worth £6m? Do you think the club is worth £6m? Not a chance! But that would be the asking price based on the paper debt...unless KT and DB are willing to take a loss and sell for less or nothing.
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« Reply #25934 on: December 07, 2019, 09:33:07 am »

By the way, to also repeat if the current lot have chucked 5 mil into the pot it’s not worth the paper it’s written on. The only way they will get that back is if someone buys the club for that amount or they sell an asset like the land or player. They have promised that any sale of the land would benefit the club. Could you argue that clearing their loan to the club is a benefit? Think about it, I imagine most people took that as some sort of assurance the club would get the money to develop the ground and lord it up in the championship. If that was the assumption you must be on drugs?
To compete in League 1 is our immediate goal, something we haven't done in over 50 years.
You being of sound business mind would know a community football club is unlike a normal business and can not be subjected to asset striping as say a distressed retailer or manufacturer, for an outsider to come in hoping to profit unconditionally from a community asset is some what without much ethics.
Let's look at the £5.5m debt,  you say investment into the infrastructure of Northampton town is too big a risk, its known £3m would allow to expansion of 3000 extra onto the grounds meager capacity and would also allow a basic fit out of the boxes,  this would allow our club to increase revenues by £1.5m a season as a L1 club, help attract and sell on players for proper fees, the amount of money our club lost having to suck up the nonsense of Cardoza/Thomas is incredible..Now let's take a look at the £5.5m debt that will probably evaporate into our share of Thomas's good fortune from land grabbing..
They are not football men but land speculators who are causing untold damage to Football club of Northampton, yhat is a community asset.
Let's get the club into the hands of those who only care for the club and its future and not profiteering passers by.
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« Reply #25935 on: December 07, 2019, 12:33:50 pm »

Well there you go, you’ve proved my point! If the Cobblers really are ‘up for sale’ and have been for a while now, KT and DB might want £6m based on the amount of loans (their money) that the club is saddled with.
Is the club worth £6m? Do you think the club is worth £6m? Not a chance! But that would be the asking price based on the paper debt...unless KT and DB are willing to take a loss and sell for less or nothing.
Correct, so it’s irrelevant? If it ain’t worth it, and it’s not, take the hit and walk away or keep chucking money in and lose even more? Either way the the sale price is based on the value of the business not the size of the directors loan. Like I said, irrelevant unless your the one with your head in your hands because you’ve done your nuts on the thing.
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« Reply #25936 on: December 07, 2019, 12:38:05 pm »

To compete in League 1 is our immediate goal, something we haven't done in over 50 years.
You being of sound business mind would know a community football club is unlike a normal business and can not be subjected to asset striping as say a distressed retailer or manufacturer, for an outsider to come in hoping to profit unconditionally from a community asset is some what without much ethics.
Let's look at the £5.5m debt,  you say investment into the infrastructure of Northampton town is too big a risk, its known £3m would allow to expansion of 3000 extra onto the grounds meager capacity and would also allow a basic fit out of the boxes,  this would allow our club to increase revenues by £1.5m a season as a L1 club, help attract and sell on players for proper fees, the amount of money our club lost having to suck up the nonsense of Cardoza/Thomas is incredible..Now let's take a look at the £5.5m debt that will probably evaporate into our share of Thomas's good fortune from land grabbing..
They are not football men but land speculators who are causing untold damage to Football club of Northampton, yhat is a community asset.
Let's get the club into the hands of those who only care for the club and its future and not profiteering passers by.
You can't help yourself, can you Boris? Line one. Lie one. We got to the play offs in 1998. You can justifiably argue that in that season, we competed in league one.
I didn't even bother reading the rest, I saw you'd written some numbers so I automatically assumed they're made up.

Carry on.
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« Reply #25937 on: December 07, 2019, 12:46:13 pm »

This is absolutely not the case at all. When KT came in he could not have been clearer his intention was to 'complete' the east stand and this was certainly a factor in the council waving the 10 million debt. The level to which it is developed may be significant but it still needs finishing. Wilder on more than one occasion said he was sick of staring at a building site and so are the rest of us. The £5 million they burned was due to a large extent by the chinese debacle, a business blunder of the highest order.
Absolutely agree, I think the current owners implied they would finish the East Stand. However, I believe it is not being finished for no other reason than they think they will be chucking money down the drain. Forget planning permissions, forget issues with boundaries and the game of show and tell with the council and all the other excuses that have been trotted out. They won’t spend money on it because they don’t believe it’s financially viable. In my opinion of course.
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« Reply #25938 on: December 07, 2019, 12:57:03 pm »

I think when you cut through all of the endless pages of commentary on here there are 2 separate issues?

1. Is it financially feasible to develop the ground?
2. Have the current owners got an obligation to complete the East Stand?

It’s no more complicated than that. It just seems that it’s a struggle to separate the 2 apparently?
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« Reply #25939 on: December 07, 2019, 13:02:40 pm »

There’s no point in us all kicking lumps out off each other. We basically all want the same thing.

It's just a crying shame that there's not a group that could be representative of the support. A group that’s sitting on a few quid, that could use it to do something constructive..... Oh hang on.....  Grin Grin
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