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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1823232 times)
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« Reply #26060 on: December 11, 2019, 17:47:08 pm »

Your sarcasm ignores one very important point.

Barnet  and Stevenage both have what we would like. An exceptionally rich chairman, who has to spend a lot of money on something or lose the money elsewhere. Hence the whole community angle of it all..

I could be very wrong. But Barnet has a very Rushden & Diamonds feel about it all.


True that Stevenage has a wealth owner (so does NTFC) but the new stands have been crowdfunded. 
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« Reply #26061 on: December 11, 2019, 19:08:55 pm »

I know Beds keeps going on about adding capacity and the amount of money we could be losing out on....what he seems to be forgetting is that the money needed to expand capacity and install boxes etc still needs to be spent.
If we are £5.5m ‘in debt’ already, he seems to be advocating spending another £3m now on top of that in the hope that it will repay itself over time.
How long would it take to repay itself? Years and years....I can see why KT is doing nothing at the moment either, because it’s not financially worthwhile in the short term.....

Not sticking up for him, the stand and boxes should have been done and finished by now, as all we have at the moment is £5.5m of directors loans and a half empty shell of a stand to show for it.

The ‘promises’ that were made at the beginning were not kept, however now that particular ship has sailed. So we are stuck in the position where nothing is happening. Hopefully we are breaking even, the loan account is not growing any further, and we are having a modicum of success on the pitch.
Northampton town is 125 years old and it will be around in another 125 years, so shall we wait until 2150 to have a challenge on league 1? When do we decide the Cobblers deserve a chance to step out of the Posh's shaddow?
If being run as a club devoid of ambition, how can we expect to build up and maintain the future support base?

Another thought,  we all admire the work of Chairman of Accrington Stanley and how he works a tiny club to extract every penny that is on offer, how do you think he'd mix things up if he were the Chairman of Northampton with 5 times more of everything at his disposal?
My guess would be Championship football with regular 12000 gates.


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« Reply #26062 on: December 11, 2019, 19:58:59 pm »

Difficult one to answer that as a supporter of 30 plus years. As a fan, definitely do the development if the funds were still there to do so.

From a business point of view, the latter.
Of course yes.
I agree it makes no immediate direct financial sense for the owners to finish the development, I meant doing so might then enable a better response from whoever they are in talks with over the development of the wider area. Such is the apparent stalemate at the moment, the only other ways I can see the chairman and his buddy getting their monies back are by going on one hell of a cup run or getting lucky in the transfer market and selling a player to a much higher level club.
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« Reply #26063 on: December 11, 2019, 20:56:30 pm »

True that Stevenage has a wealth owner (so does NTFC) but the new stands have been crowdfunded. 
Come on Nigel you're not keeping up again  Wink

 PS No need to be so grumpy, I know Chelsea got a bit of a stuffing at the weekend , but they won last night.
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« Reply #26064 on: December 11, 2019, 21:17:40 pm »

True that Stevenage has a wealth owner (so does NTFC) but the new stands have been crowdfunded. 
 

There you go. A perfect chance for the Trust to do something constructive with the money they sit on... Get in touch with KT and get a nice fresh website up and running. Let’s get crowd funding.

That would be a wonderful way to get more than the five or so supporters who bother with the Trust back on board.

I'd happily get involved in that. I’d love to sit down with KT and work with the Trust and the club to look at the crowd funding option.. I’m sure we’d get a few on here who’d help.
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« Reply #26065 on: December 11, 2019, 21:36:38 pm »

Northampton town is 125 years old and it will be around in another 125 years, so shall we wait until 2150 to have a challenge on league 1? When do we decide the Cobblers deserve a chance to step out of the Posh's shaddow?
If being run as a club devoid of ambition, how can we expect to build up and maintain the future support base?

Another thought,  we all admire the work of Chairman of Accrington Stanley and how he works a tiny club to extract every penny that is on offer, how do you think he'd mix things up if he were the Chairman of Northampton with 5 times more of everything at his disposal?
My guess would be Championship football with regular 12000 gates.




As usual a load of bollocks.

And you still have not answered my questions.
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« Reply #26066 on: December 12, 2019, 01:41:20 am »

It’s really not complicated honestly. The facts, and they are facts, are it is not financially viable to develop the ground at this point in time. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t, couldn’t or won’t happen. All that means is that it won’t be paid for using the traditional methods of raising capital expenditure. And this idea that it can be achieved by self financing methods through the gate and match day sales etc is straight off the boat from Fantasy Island. As for Kelvin Thomas, what does everyone really think? My view is he has probably done all a non NTFC supporting investor could have done. Whilst you can argue that the 5 million invested may have been better spent, the bottom line is they have still spent 5 million. Considering the club was days from going out of business I personally feel this was a significant commitment to say the least. Yes they are doing it with an eye on getting a return on it but why wouldn’t they? Is the expectation really that they would do it for love? Come on, FFS it’s about time some had a reality check. We would all like a rich benefactor with deep pockets who will come along and indulge us all. Even that doesn’t necessarily guarantee everlasting success a la Rushden & Diamonds. With hindsight many could argue with some justification that this has not worked out as we had liked. However, when we were at the point of being wound up, if we were told that a businessman were to come onboard and plough 5 million into the playing side of the club over 3 or 4 years, how many hand on heart would have said “no thanks”. My best guess is that when the club was taken over the plan was to spend on the pitch to give us a fighting chance of The Championship. The potential revenue stream and gate increase at that point would have given some grounds to finish the East Stand. With Chris Wilder as manager this was a distinct possibility. Unfortunately The Sheffield United job came up, and as most reasonable people are aware spending money on the squad doesn’t always equate to relative success. So the struggle began and spending money on the ground had to be re-evaluated. That’s the thing, you can embark on a process with the best intentions but if you are too inflexible, when circumstances change you still have to be prepared to cut your cloth to suit. If you don’t you can very quickly find yourself in a very difficult financial position. That doesn’t make you insincere or a fraud, just sensible and adaptable. In my mind that’s probably about what’s happened. Are we really saying the owners should have redeveloped irrespective of the circumstances and got themselves in for 9 million or so? Come on, no one in there right mind would do that, not on a Division 2 club, they’d have to be out of their minds? And I’ll tell you another fact, there is not a single person on here that would, in the event they had 10 or even 20 million spare. So my view is that the owners have done all that could be reasonably expected of them given the way things played out. Although I concede they could have perhaps communicated matters better at times. I know this is going to make me as popular as rats vomit in the eyes of some, but it needed saying. I’m off to run for cover, see you all in a few days.
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« Reply #26067 on: December 12, 2019, 04:54:56 am »

It’s really not complicated honestly. The facts, and they are facts, are it is not financially viable to develop the ground at this point in time. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t, couldn’t or won’t happen. All that means is that it won’t be paid for using the traditional methods of raising capital expenditure. And this idea that it can be achieved by self financing methods through the gate and match day sales etc is straight off the boat from Fantasy Island. As for Kelvin Thomas, what does everyone really think? My view is he has probably done all a non NTFC supporting investor could have done. Whilst you can argue that the 5 million invested may have been better spent, the bottom line is they have still spent 5 million. Considering the club was days from going out of business I personally feel this was a significant commitment to say the least. Yes they are doing it with an eye on getting a return on it but why wouldn’t they? Is the expectation really that they would do it for love? Come on, FFS it’s about time some had a reality check. We would all like a rich benefactor with deep pockets who will come along and indulge us all. Even that doesn’t necessarily guarantee everlasting success a la Rushden & Diamonds. With hindsight many could argue with some justification that this has not worked out as we had liked. However, when we were at the point of being wound up, if we were told that a businessman were to come onboard and plough 5 million into the playing side of the club over 3 or 4 years, how many hand on heart would have said “no thanks”. My best guess is that when the club was taken over the plan was to spend on the pitch to give us a fighting chance of The Championship. The potential revenue stream and gate increase at that point would have given some grounds to finish the East Stand. With Chris Wilder as manager this was a distinct possibility. Unfortunately The Sheffield United job came up, and as most reasonable people are aware spending money on the squad doesn’t always equate to relative success. So the struggle began and spending money on the ground had to be re-evaluated. That’s the thing, you can embark on a process with the best intentions but if you are too inflexible, when circumstances change you have to be prepared to cut your cloth to suit. If you don’t you can very quickly find yourself in a very difficult financial position. That doesn’t make you insincere or a fraud, just sensible and adaptable. In my mind that’s probably about what’s happened. Are we really saying the owners should have redeveloped irrespective of the circumstances and got themselves in for 9 million or so? Come on, no one in there right mind would do that, not on a Division 2 club, they’d have to be out of their minds? And I’ll tell you another fact, there is not a single person on here that would, in the event they had 10 or even 20 million spare. So my view is that the owners have done all that could be reasonably expected of them given the way things played out. Although I concede they could have perhaps communicated matters better at times. I know this is going to make me as popular as rats vomit in the eyes of some, but it needed saying. I’m off to run for cover, see you all in a few days.
No need to 'run for cover' when your views are based on facts.

My comment to KT is to layout his future plans and the timescale. He might be suprised if he treats people as adults (except Beds) they will accept his honesty.
If he does not have plans to expand the infrastructure now, tell us!

IT IS THE NOT KNOWING THAT ANGERS AND FRUSTRATES FANS!!!!

If we have to wait two more years and 5 more 'good progress' meetings with NBC......tell us!

As people have said from the start, if he is using NTFC as a vehicle to make himself some money, no problem.................BUT ONLY IF THE CLUB HAS THE DEVELOPMENT WE REQUIRE! ie; some or all of a new East Stand with Excecutive Boxes, Conference Centre, new tier to the South Stand and???
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« Reply #26068 on: December 12, 2019, 05:45:49 am »

 

There you go. A perfect chance for the Trust to do something constructive with the money they sit on... Get in touch with KT and get a nice fresh website up and running. Let’s get crowd funding.

That would be a wonderful way to get more than the five or so supporters who bother with the Trust back on board.

I'd happily get involved in that. I’d love to sit down with KT and work with the Trust and the club to look at the crowd funding option.. I’m sure we’d get a few on here who’d help.

And you inaccurately accuse Barton of sarcasm when this is your specialist subject. 

Seriously, you are consistently coming across as a very sour person always wanting to have a go at a small number of posters, myself included. and when it comes to the Trust it is open season for you knowing it isn’t going to respond to your provocations.   

In case it escaped you, all I was doing was pointing out that one club, Stevenage which, as you correctly stated. has a wealthy owner, has crowdfunded its new stands.  In other words, I am just saying there are other funding possibilities to improving our stadium and infrastructure.  Others may be interested to know but, of course, not you. 

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« Reply #26069 on: December 12, 2019, 08:27:38 am »

As usual a load of bollocks.

And you still have not answered my questions.
I genuinely dont know what questions you ask?
Is it
Q.. Where is the money coming from to improve the infrastructure?
A, The very same place as every other league club got theres.
The brutal truth is we dont progress without any investment into the infrastructure and we just stand still and fall further behind all our rivals.
Sadly having no written plans after all these years it looks very like most of those in a position to actually do something are not here for the long term, so why would they care for our clubs future?
  
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« Reply #26070 on: December 12, 2019, 08:56:42 am »

I genuinely dont know what questions you ask?
Is it
Q.. Where is the money coming from to improve the infrastructure?
A, The very same place as every other league club got theres.
The brutal truth is we dont progress without any investment into the infrastructure and we just stand still and fall further behind all our rivals.
Sadly having no written plans after all these years it looks very like most of those in a position to actually do something are not here for the long term, so why would they care for our clubs future?
  


Oh dear. You are so pathetic. I have pointed out what the questions are and even hi-lighted them in red. Try and reclaim a little credibility and answer them(this is the fourth time I have asked you).

In answer to your question. The money will come only from a wealthy benefactor(s) who would hopefully have a business plan in place to be able to have the club at a minimum break even. No person/consortium who is expecting to get their money back would consider investing in the club at this moment in time.

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« Reply #26071 on: December 12, 2019, 11:54:32 am »

And you inaccurately accuse Barton of sarcasm when this is your specialist subject. 




Absolutely.. Couldn't agree with you more. 90% of what I say is either sarcasm or pi$$ taking. It doesn't take a genius to work that out. But like a lot of grown ups I get it and I give it back. Where as you are so entrenched in your self appointed role as saviour of all things Trust, that you can't clearly see that a comments like "Hang on lads, such massive clubs as Stevenage and Barnet " is not sarcasm  Grin Grin I'll leave you with that, because you couldn't be further off track with some of the indefensible stuff, that you cherry pick to support.

In terms of the other comment I made. As far as I am concerned the point I made was a genuine one, albeit with the usual annoying sarcasm  Grin. In my opinion, and I would say it is a well supported opinion, the Trust is at an all time low. It has failed to engage with the vast majority of the support regarding the state of inertia surrounding the redevelopment. The supports engagement with the Trust has virtually disappeared across the board and general enthusiasm for the Trusts role in most things has disintegrated. I would fairly point out, that there is a number of reasons for that, some of which should not be laid at the Trusts door.  

Now.. In no way would I consider myself to be in anyway a solution to the redevelopment issue, but I have tried (sarcasm aside) to give a fair perspective on it at times. The Trust is the guardians of their members money. I believe, and I have said this face to face to the Trust board, that the first thing the Trust board needs to do is ensure that the perspective of the few, is shared by the many. Openly challenging the club on some of the issues the Trust board have, is a bold, and some might say arrogant thing to do, unless you are supremely confident that firstly you have the support of your membership, and secondly you have gauged the feeling of the wider support base. With the funds that are available to the Trust, as I have suggested, you should initially canvass your own membership with a few strategic questions, then open it up further to the wider support. As far as I can see at this point, the only auditing tool used to ascertain the satisfaction of the membership of the Trust has been the temperature of the mood for things discussed at a working mans club. Admittedly, that is not for want of trying. I accept the Trust has invited the support to meetings to offer their views. But clearly that has not bared fruit, or certainly not sufficient fruit to arrive at a mandate for action.  

Once again this is only my opinion. But I have stated over and over again, that this is a pivotal point in the Trusts existence. It is essential that they achieve a mandate from the support to arrive at a clearly defined strategy for the way ahead, on what we all see has serious concerns or issues. I might not share other peoples reservations about the situation or KT, but I could easily be out of touch or step, with the rest of the support. I just wouldn't know. How long does the perception that nothing tangible is happening continue to prevail? There are clearly some very credible skills and people either on the Trust, or involved with it. It only lends itself to a fair degree of negative scrutiny, because those skills are not being deployed either strategically or appropriately, or at the very least in line with the support base.

One thing I appreciate above all is the level of apathy that any activist approach will encounter. Whilst that is not easy to deal with, it does not mean that the Trust or any representative body should take that as a green light for only accepting consensus at a local level. The Trust board owes it to the support to create an inclusive environment on the redevelopment issue. Forget the Moat House, the board meetings, the AGM. Separate this issue at source and ask the support what they think. The currently polarity and division within the support is shown on this thread. But only an idiot would suggest that anything on here, or any other social media platform, is representative of the support. If the support are canvassed and the response is apathetic, or equally split, then you can justifiably choose what stance you adopt, but at present it's simply not know. At the moment it is as clear as mud. I'm not necessarily saying that my choice of action will remedy that. But one thing is for sure. The first question I would ask the Trust board, is what does the support think? Imagine having the luxury of having a definitive answer, no answer (but did our best) , or a clear mandate.

Give it a whirl... At least if you do, we might get a record signing or another double decker bus to act as a club decoy..   Grin Grin

I'm gonna have a bit of a break from it all for a while now. I'm even starting to see the Brexit debate in a brighter light than this thread, as well as annoying myself.  


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« Reply #26072 on: December 12, 2019, 12:10:31 pm »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50674331

Scroll down a bit, there's an interesting graph showing the (mainly) losses of clubs in the championship over the 17/18 season.

11 lost more that season that our current debt stands at.

Its pointless citing examples to prove a specific point, that could be done on either side of the argument. But its worth considering the kind of money needed to prosper at that level (unless you have a one off brilliant season), and then consider the attendances of those clubs.

My view, and it always has been, is that the East Stand should be sorted by KT. Purely because, that's what he promised on his arrival at our club. But to suggest there is any kind of 'business argument' to do so, I just cannot join in with that 'debate'. The only business argument is the one that KT is still no doubt fighting, that he gets a big return on development as part of an agreement with the council.

If he does sort it, and builds 2000 more seats behind the away end (or even a terrace) it wont make a jot of difference to our league standing. 400k a year extra in revenue (plucked that out of thin air) means we could sign Ash Taylor and Morais back. Maybe Powell as well. Or part buy a up coming striking from the national league.

If I had 3 million quid to piss away at the Cobblers, id spend the money on players, hope for success,  and then hope again that a Chinese consortium would buy it off me and take us to the next level. I am of course being ironic!  Grin But at the same time, its true.

But yeah...KT does need to sort it out. Because that's what he told us he'd do and thats a key reason why the debt was written off and he secured the club in the first place. So the economic debate is utterly a side show.

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« Reply #26073 on: December 12, 2019, 16:33:52 pm »

It’s really not complicated honestly. The facts, and they are facts, are it is not financially viable to develop the ground at this point in time. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t, couldn’t or won’t happen. All that means is that it won’t be paid for using the traditional methods of raising capital expenditure. And this idea that it can be achieved by self financing methods through the gate and match day sales etc is straight off the boat from Fantasy Island. As for Kelvin Thomas, what does everyone really think? My view is he has probably done all a non NTFC supporting investor could have done. Whilst you can argue that the 5 million invested may have been better spent, the bottom line is they have still spent 5 million. Considering the club was days from going out of business I personally feel this was a significant commitment to say the least. Yes they are doing it with an eye on getting a return on it but why wouldn’t they? Is the expectation really that they would do it for love? Come on, FFS it’s about time some had a reality check. We would all like a rich benefactor with deep pockets who will come along and indulge us all. Even that doesn’t necessarily guarantee everlasting success a la Rushden & Diamonds. With hindsight many could argue with some justification that this has not worked out as we had liked. However, when we were at the point of being wound up, if we were told that a businessman were to come onboard and plough 5 million into the playing side of the club over 3 or 4 years, how many hand on heart would have said “no thanks”. My best guess is that when the club was taken over the plan was to spend on the pitch to give us a fighting chance of The Championship. The potential revenue stream and gate increase at that point would have given some grounds to finish the East Stand. With Chris Wilder as manager this was a distinct possibility. Unfortunately The Sheffield United job came up, and as most reasonable people are aware spending money on the squad doesn’t always equate to relative success. So the struggle began and spending money on the ground had to be re-evaluated. That’s the thing, you can embark on a process with the best intentions but if you are too inflexible, when circumstances change you still have to be prepared to cut your cloth to suit. If you don’t you can very quickly find yourself in a very difficult financial position. That doesn’t make you insincere or a fraud, just sensible and adaptable. In my mind that’s probably about what’s happened. Are we really saying the owners should have redeveloped irrespective of the circumstances and got themselves in for 9 million or so? Come on, no one in there right mind would do that, not on a Division 2 club, they’d have to be out of their minds? And I’ll tell you another fact, there is not a single person on here that would, in the event they had 10 or even 20 million spare. So my view is that the owners have done all that could be reasonably expected of them given the way things played out. Although I concede they could have perhaps communicated matters better at times. I know this is going to make me as popular as rats vomit in the eyes of some, but it needed saying. I’m off to run for cover, see you all in a few days.

Don't you come on here with your common sense and reasoned points of view! It won't go down well with the natives! Wink Grin
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« Reply #26074 on: December 12, 2019, 16:39:50 pm »

No need to 'run for cover' when your views are based on facts.

My comment to KT is to layout his future plans and the timescale. He might be suprised if he treats people as adults (except Beds) they will accept his honesty.
If he does not have plans to expand the infrastructure now, tell us!

IT IS THE NOT KNOWING THAT ANGERS AND FRUSTRATES FANS!!!!

If we have to wait two more years and 5 more 'good progress' meetings with NBC......tell us!

As people have said from the start, if he is using NTFC as a vehicle to make himself some money, no problem.................BUT ONLY IF THE CLUB HAS THE DEVELOPMENT WE REQUIRE! ie; some or all of a new East Stand with Excecutive Boxes, Conference Centre, new tier to the South Stand and???

I understand your frustration and agree with what you say but maybe it's as simple as KT not knowing what's going to happen until he knows where we are in the league and what other investment he can attract. I'm sure like most of us he would love to demolish the East Stand and start again but at the moment that's just not feasible.
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« Reply #26075 on: December 12, 2019, 19:05:54 pm »

I understand your frustration and agree with what you say but maybe it's as simple as KT not knowing what's going to happen until he knows where we are in the league and what other investment he can attract. I'm sure like most of us he would love to demolish the East Stand and start again but at the moment that's just not feasible.

What other investment he can attract??

This article is now 18 months old.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44223738

He's not doing a good job at attracting investment is he? And as for a sale....?

Despite the apparent good relations  Grin with the Council now Grin, and progress  Grin being made, i've not seen this statement rescinded, so we must assume the club is still "up for sale"
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« Reply #26076 on: December 12, 2019, 19:09:38 pm »

What other investment he can attract??

This article is now 18 months old.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44223738

He's not doing a good job at attracting investment is he? And as for a sale....?

Despite the apparent good relations  Grin with the Council now Grin, and progress  Grin being made, i've not seen this statement rescinded, so we must assume the club is still "up for sale"


Every thing is for sale at the right price. I just don't think his expectations and those of a potential buyer would match somehow.
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« Reply #26077 on: December 12, 2019, 20:39:35 pm »

What other investment he can attract??No one knows Huh?

This article is now 18 months old.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44223738

He's not doing a good job at attracting investment is he? And as for a sale....?Maybe negotiations are "progressing well" Wink

Despite the apparent good relations  Grin with the Council now Grin, and progress  Grin being made, i've not seen this statement rescinded, so we must assume the club is still "up for sale"I think every club is "up for sale" Grin
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« Reply #26078 on: December 12, 2019, 23:00:33 pm »

Why doesn’t KT and the Board simply sell off the rights to the land on the proviso that the East Stand is completed and the debts written off .
The club could then progress under KT or become a more saleable asset .
There must be enough profit in the land to do this surely and it means the club is safeguarded from unscrupulous developers .
Am I missing something ?
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« Reply #26079 on: December 13, 2019, 00:30:00 am »

Why doesn’t KT and the Board simply sell off the rights to the land on the proviso that the East Stand is completed and the debts written off .
The club could then progress under KT or become a more saleable asset .
There must be enough profit in the land to do this surely and it means the club is safeguarded from unscrupulous developers .
Am I missing something ?

I'm not sure that at this moment the land is worth a great deal without at least outline planning permission. Also is there still a question mark regarding the polution from the waste tip?
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