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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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« Reply #26280 on: January 12, 2020, 09:45:29 am »

The bottom line is you don’t buy a lower league football team to make money, that’s not to say you can’t like our cup run this year will gross over £1m.
KT came to make a profit out of the land, which is fair enough as long as he for fills his promises of finishing the East Stand.
Unfortunately KT wants his cake and eat it and seems willing to wait, again I don’t blame his considering the sums at stake £100m+.
There must be a middle way, some sort of mediation that can broker a deal that suits everyone?

Good post Manny, couldn't agree more.
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« Reply #26281 on: January 12, 2020, 10:05:47 am »

Whilst we are on the subject of the past though, what exactly are the concessions the council made as part of the purchase of the club? I’m a bit confused?
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« Reply #26282 on: January 12, 2020, 10:36:28 am »

Whilst we are on the subject of the past though, what exactly are the concessions the council made as part of the purchase of the club? I’m a bit confused?
Your memory is going Melly it’s that lack of sleep staying up watching the mighty Wobbs.
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« Reply #26283 on: January 12, 2020, 10:50:57 am »

Of course this opens you to the accusation of lacking ambition but I would counter this by saying my financial success in life (and I suspect yours) has been based on considered practical ambition.

The question that always goes unanswered is simply what is the alternative to the current situation - and I’m sorry a Beds theoretical plan or a Vintage rant on how bad KT is is not an answer, it is not a plan and at best just conjecture, given their clear lack of understanding of economics (Clearly illustrated by the lack of understanding of the £5 million debt in a privately owned company).

Of course Beds will continue his rhetoric on the same theme - perfectly entitled to but will also continue to lack credibility unless he can actually name names and indeed dates when these people waiting in the wings to take the club forward. Our other contributor Vintage will hopefully finally get the message that those of us who don’t subscribe to the vitriol he pens are not sheep or indeed apologists for KT.


Please desist from making statements that I don’t understand economics or lack of understanding of the £5 million debt.  I had perfectly sensible exchange on this thread with Melbourne about this before Christmas and what I think may transpire.  I agree that it is very different animal to external bank debt and no one in their right mind who buys the club will pay off any part of this debt.  But it could be more than just an internal book debt since the £5 million is legally owned to a combination of Belle de Jour Ltd and Ventures.  Therefore, if any development gain comes into NTFC at a future date our owners would be entitled to recoup the £5 million first.  Further, we don’t know the terms on which DB/KT transferred their shares from CDNL to NTFC and if any future buyer of NTFC would be bound by those terms.  All KT has said, and I quote him from the announcement he made in October of the ownership changes, is “………..there can be no misunderstanding that any proceeds from any land around the ground would only be used to benefit the football club.”  You tell me what that means in specific terms bearing in mind NTFC now apparently through CDNL holds leasehold land extending from the back of the East Stand well beyond the running track towards the Saints ground, all of the North Car Park the tarmac car park next to the Walter Tull Pub and the recycling tip.  Once again at the risk of labouring the point you have to cut through the froth of KT’s deliberately bland statements and see what lies behind them.  There is no ranting involved raising such matters.

On the issue of the ownership it is as relevant today to question the bona fides of our owners and the basis on which they acquired the club and the understanding they reached with NBC as it was in 2015.  They knew very well what they were getting into (KT had 6 years of being a director at Oxford and a short period of involvement at Torquay) so they are not wet behind the ears on football clubs.  Also they could not have known or be certain in November 2015 that they could acquire the CDNL land. NBC even instructed a QC to try and prevent DB/KT acquiring the land in 2017. So, they came with a purported £4 million to finish the East Stand and invest in the club.  Their statement not mine.  The expression trust and confidence comes to mind.

As to the future, I am hopeful that we will achieve promotion.  There is a good chance. Apart from better football being a League 1 club should attract some interest with prospective buyers and maybe someone will arrive actually willing and able to take the club forward.  Football clubs and sound economics are not a marriage made in heaven.  To be fair the present ownership are paying the bills and keep things ticking over off the football pitch but they show no sign of being willing or able to do much more without development profits and these look to be long way away.

Back to economics, I have also written on this thread that in my view the current business model for football clubs in Leagues 1 & 2 is broken and that the German 51% model or a version of it is the way forward.  There are going to be more Burys and, in addition to Macclesfield, Southend are once more in difficulties.  There are more to come.  We and others like us need a sounder economic model and a great deal more transparency!!

"Rant" over.



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« Reply #26284 on: January 12, 2020, 11:02:32 am »

Your memory is going Melly it’s that lack of sleep staying up watching the mighty Wobbs.
Maybe mate, it’s just that some seem to be implying the debt was written off? In which case what are the Cardozas being chased for? Are some saying the alternative was the council chased the club for the debt and the Cardozas walk? If so then hypothetically the council chased the club for the debt and no one buys it with that millstone round it’s neck so it folds and the council get practically nothing, so then they go after the Cardozas? Or option 2 is they go after the Cardozas from the outset and avoid the pointless demise of the club? What exactly did the council give to the current owners to allow them to buy the club? As I see it the 10 million is irrelevant as they could only ever realistically chase the Cardozas for it anyway? Pinning it on the club was always a pointless exercise that achieved nothing but the end of the club. Yes the owners got it for a pound and the settlement of the tax bill with the consent of the main creditor, but was there ever a realistic or plausible alternative? Develop the stand and we won’t chase you for the 10 million, sorry that’s bolllcks. The land issue may be a different matter, but that’s stalemate anyway?
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« Reply #26285 on: January 12, 2020, 11:06:03 am »


Please desist from making statements that I don’t understand economics or lack of understanding of the £5 million debt.  I had perfectly sensible exchange on this thread with Melbourne about this before Christmas and what I think may transpire.  I agree that it is very different animal to external bank debt and no one in their right mind who buys the club will pay off any part of this debt.  But it could be more than just an internal book debt since the £5 million is legally owned to a combination of Belle de Jour Ltd and Ventures.  Therefore, if any development gain comes into NTFC at a future date our owners would be entitled to recoup the £5 million first.  Further, we don’t know the terms on which DB/KT transferred their shares from CDNL to NTFC and if any future buyer of NTFC would be bound by those terms.  All KT has said, and I quote him from the announcement he made in October of the ownership changes, is “………..there can be no misunderstanding that any proceeds from any land around the ground would only be used to benefit the football club.”  You tell me what that means in specific terms bearing in mind NTFC now apparently through CDNL holds leasehold land extending from the back of the East Stand well beyond the running track towards the Saints ground, all of the North Car Park the tarmac car park next to the Walter Tull Pub and the recycling tip.  Once again at the risk of labouring the point you have to cut through the froth of KT’s deliberately bland statements and see what lies behind them.  There is no ranting involved raising such matters.

On the issue of the ownership it is as relevant today to question the bona fides of our owners and the basis on which they acquired the club and the understanding they reached with NBC as it was in 2015.  They knew very well what they were getting into (KT had 6 years of being a director at Oxford and a short period of involvement at Torquay) so they are not wet behind the ears on football clubs.  Also they could not have known or be certain in November 2015 that they could acquire the CDNL land. NBC even instructed a QC to try and prevent DB/KT acquiring the land in 2017. So, they came with a purported £4 million to finish the East Stand and invest in the club.  Their statement not mine.  The expression trust and confidence comes to mind.

As to the future, I am hopeful that we will achieve promotion.  There is a good chance. Apart from better football being a League 1 club should attract some interest with prospective buyers and maybe someone will arrive actually willing and able to take the club forward.  Football clubs and sound economics are not a marriage made in heaven.  To be fair the present ownership are paying the bills and keep things ticking over off the football pitch but they show no sign of being willing or able to do much more without development profits and these look to be long way away.

Back to economics, I have also written on this thread that in my view the current business model for football clubs in Leagues 1 & 2 is broken and that the German 51% model or a version of it is the way forward.  There are going to be more Burys and, in addition to Macclesfield, Southend are once more in difficulties.  There are more to come.  We and others like us need a sounder economic model and a great deal more transparency!!

"Rant" over.





I wouldn't call this, nor any of Melbourne's posts, a rant. Both very logical and reasoned posts to a highly emotive subject.
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« Reply #26286 on: January 12, 2020, 11:33:30 am »


Further, we don’t know the terms on which DB/KT transferred their shares from CDNL to NTFC and if any future buyer of NTFC would be bound by those terms.

In fairness VC any potential buyer should make themselves fully aware of any terms and conditions  regarding the purchase of the club prior to the transaction, and if they don’t like or accept them they walk away. The current owners can attach what conditions they like to the debt but unless a potential buyer is prepared to accept them they are worthless.
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« Reply #26287 on: January 12, 2020, 11:47:17 am »

Agree completely, MC, but the other side of the redevelopment gain (if any) matter is that if no buyer turns up and the current owners stay in place how much goes to them and how much goes to NTFC for its separate purposes.  The owners potentially have a free hand as 84% shareholders and we who are outside the tent may well ..... into it but will miss our target.  A debate perhaps for the future.
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« Reply #26288 on: January 12, 2020, 12:05:16 pm »


Please desist from making statements that I don’t understand economics or lack of understanding of the £5 million debt.  I had perfectly sensible exchange on this thread with Melbourne about this before Christmas and what I think may transpire.  I agree that it is very different animal to external bank debt and no one in their right mind who buys the club will pay off any part of this debt.  But it could be more than just an internal book debt since the £5 million is legally owned to a combination of Belle de Jour Ltd and Ventures. 

Back to economics, I have also written on this thread that in my view the current business model for football clubs in Leagues 1 & 2 is broken and that the German 51% model or a version of it is the way forward.  There are going to be more Burys and, in addition to Macclesfield, Southend are once more in difficulties.  There are more to come.  We and others like us need a sounder economic model and a great deal more transparency!!



On your first point quoted my apologies as clearly my comment should not apply to you but I do think some of the terminology written in general in the manner of KT saddling the club with a £5 million debt does show a lack of understanding.

Re your last point quoted I 100% agree the system is broken and the examples of why are frequent and indeed very diverse - yesterday’s hosts being another example of a club that is probably not sustainable in the long term.

Lastly thank you for a considered and polite reply - it is not differences of opinion that irritate me on this board but the manner they are sometimes delivered.
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« Reply #26289 on: January 12, 2020, 12:31:42 pm »

Thanks Cobblerswatch and gladly accepted.  Apart from what we do to earn a crust we are all dedicated Cobblers’ fans and we all have our moments, myself included.  Guilty as charged.

My views you know and in addition to the issues facing us at NTFC I try to take in the national scene. I can only see the German model making sound sense both economically and in terms of supporter and community participation and transparency. Given the size of Northampton and its catchment area we are better placed than most. Reliance on sugar daddy owners  in Leagues 1 & 2 is well past its sell by date but the problem is that the EFL owners are going to resist being turkeys voting for Christmas.  I fear change will only come about by a number of unfortunate crisis clubs disappearing and legislation.  Bury was a tragedy and there will be others.

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« Reply #26290 on: January 12, 2020, 13:25:03 pm »

Thanks Cobblerswatch and gladly accepted.  Apart from what we do to earn a crust we are all dedicated Cobblers’ fans and we all have our moments, myself included.  Guilty as charged.

My views you know and in addition to the issues facing us at NTFC I try to take in the national scene. I can only see the German model making sound sense both economically and in terms of supporter and community participation and transparency. Given the size of Northampton and its catchment area we are better placed than most. Reliance on sugar daddy owners  in Leagues 1 & 2 is well past its sell by date but the problem is that the EFL owners are going to resist being turkeys voting for Christmas.  I fear change will only come about by a number of unfortunate crisis clubs disappearing and legislation.  Bury was a tragedy and there will be others.


I would say VC that from an idealistic standpoint that is probably the best way forward by a considerable margin. I am a bit murky on how to get from point A to B and the good old finances but that doesn’t mean it’s unattainable. What you fear is perhaps a necessary evil to enforce a sustainable and progressive future for the lower divisions?
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« Reply #26291 on: January 12, 2020, 14:18:52 pm »

MC, I wouldn’t say it is idealistic, rather it may come about by necessity.  I think the worst case scenario is if there was a financial crisis and the club was bought out of Administration, has points deducted and players leave. It would be return to go. Plainly awful. 

Better that that supporters get their ducks in a row now and plan properly for the future, identifying those in the local business community who would be willing to participate and play an activate part in such a project.  When I say supporters I mean the Trust or a similar constituted body of committed people because nothing happens without hard work and dedication to the task.

On the financial side I readily accept it is a major challenge.  I am assuming that the current owners would want rid and will sell for a nominal amount and let’s put aside for the moment the development land. I would hope that local businesses would get involved with money/support and not on unacceptable terms but none has been asked and so no-one knows.  If local businesses are uninterested it certainly becomes that much harder but other clubs like Exeter, which has no debt, have dealt with this and are doing well.  I recognise that the 100% model has its limitations and the Exeter representatives were very open in telling the Trust that League 1 has to be their ceiling based on their current model.  North of the border Motherwell and Hearts have community ownership schemes in place.  Motherwell has a very similar supporter base in numbers to our own but also have the Glasgow giants on their doorstep. With such competition it can’t be easy but they are managing.  We have no competition in the locality unless Leicester City are drawing support away in numbers. I don’t know.   I have always stated a strong preference for the so-called hybrid but the devil, financially and legally, would be in the detail.

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« Reply #26292 on: January 12, 2020, 15:26:56 pm »

Just curious but do the club charge NBC/Veolia rent on the Sixfields recycling centre and also receive a rental fee when the fair pitches up at the North Car Park?
 Additionally as a hotel was part of plans at various times and locations what would prevent the small car park next to the Walter Tull being a convenient site where the land remediation would be less of an issue than the bottom part of the combined sight?

 I was always convinced if I won the euromillions I’d buy the club and go crazy on the building but realistically I’d probably sponsor a player or Adam Moreton.

 
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I think someone should just take this city of Peterborough and just... just flush it down the f***in' toilet

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« Reply #26293 on: January 12, 2020, 16:33:19 pm »

Apparently all of us who don't agree with the 12 year old keyboard warrior Beds and his cohorts are the KT supporters.
TFAMH asks the question, and as if by magic ... Grin
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« Reply #26294 on: January 12, 2020, 16:39:11 pm »

Whether you are happy with how the East Stand situation has been handled, I still come back to the same issue. What is the point in spending millions increasing the capacity of a ground we can’t currently get close to filling, or are likely to fill in our current league position. Who in their right mind would spend that kind of money without any prospect of an ROI? Please don’t come back with the examples of Peterborough, Luton and all the other examples. There are equally as many failures. The world is chock a block full of people who spend ridiculous figures on schemes that are complete and utter nonsense, it doesn’t make it right though. People don’t want to look at this from a financial perspective because it hinders aspirations and agendas, yet it is the only thing that matters. and don’t think that spending that sort of money doesn’t come at a risk either. There is a world of difference between wanting gates of 10,000 plus and having to get that figure to survive. The thing that annoys me is that I know as fact that most of those on here that are telling others what to do with their money would fill their pants and run for the hills if they had a few million and were asked to spend it in this way, and rightly so. The financial argument for developing the ground isn’t there at this point in time. Be disappointed with the owners for the way they have handled this, fair enough. The fact remains they have still spent 5 million, thats what concerns me about them. At least they have spent it trying to improve the squad, which may just create a need for development? As I also said recently if you really want to exert pressure or create a momentum to depose the current owners then that’s the right of any supporter, but what comes next? Because unless there is a concrete plan to take the club to where your aspirations are what’s the point? Instability rarely leads to progress, so what’s the plan chaps, KT out? If so and that’s your position fine, but who and what comes next and what financial support do they bring to enable us to improve upon what we have now? And to be clear what we have now are no creditors currently at the door and owners who have spent millions trying to improve the performance and quality of the squad on the pitch. The suggestions for development that have been put forward on here are almost without exception nothing more than the incoherent ramblings of a demented lunatic. They wouldn’t get past the first hurdle of satisfying the credit check of an even half credible construction company, and that is fact by the way. Please god someone come up with something viable and constructive as an alternative, because without it if the current owners walk the most likely senario by far is we go backwards? All of us to a supporter probably have the same thoughts about the Cardozas, but when they pulled the plug what position were we in then? All I remember is us being hours from oblivion, so why are some convinced this time it will be different? All those that wanted Cardoza out were proved to be fully vindicated it seems? However it doesn’t change the fact that we stared into the abyss as a result? You see my point, if you want change then what specifically are we changing to, and how do you appease someone like me to garner support? Whilst I may be in the minority on this thread, I am probably not in the minority generally, and without a proposal that garners genuine support all this is nonsense.
Think spare capacity and being able to maximise on the bigger league and cup games, whilst established in L1...
That was a massive post to show you fail to understand the basic needs of our football club and showing you still fail to grasp the difference between a community football club and a specific manufacturing or service providing businesses...
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« Reply #26295 on: January 12, 2020, 17:01:25 pm »

Whilst most would agree that a fully redeveloped stadium with people flocking to it from our vast catchment area playing football consistently at a higher level you seem to miss that it has to be financially viable to secure the future and not put it at greater risk.

Chicken and egg maybe but it’s always easier to spend other people’s money.
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« Reply #26296 on: January 12, 2020, 17:10:03 pm »

See above Zen on my thoughts. We have spent a lifetime wishing for a sugar daddy but none has arrived. Time for a change of direction across Leagues 1 & 2.
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« Reply #26297 on: January 12, 2020, 17:32:27 pm »

I read all of them but rarely post these days due to the circuitous nature of all of it.
I
Want ownership that benefits club, community and is financially responsible and stable.
Want ownership that is open and transparent. I like Andy Holt at Accrington.
Want to see us playing at a higher level.
Want to see us playing in a stadium fit for higher level football with the ability to host crowds that will be from a range of ages, be disability friendly and be a wall of noise once now and again.
Want to see attractive attacking football. (Not the opposition)
Want to see us beating the likes of boro on a regular basis ( off the pitch is fine too!)

Want others to sort it all out and take the risks and speculation to do this.

I’ve spent over 30 years watching mostly in the vain hope this will happen. (Not trying to compete with people who have been going longer/more games)

I’ll keep paying my money in the meantime and try and drag non regular folks along




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« Reply #26298 on: January 12, 2020, 17:36:36 pm »

TFAMH asks the question, and as if by magic ... Grin

I gave an answer which is something you seem to be completely unable to do, or is afraid to do because you will look a right tít in front of you other keyboard warrior girlfriends?
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« Reply #26299 on: January 12, 2020, 18:21:51 pm »

Whilst most would agree that a fully redeveloped stadium with people flocking to it from our vast catchment area playing football consistently at a higher level you seem to miss that it has to be financially viable to secure the future and not put it at greater risk.

Chicken and egg maybe but it’s always easier to spend other people’s money.
Spend the money of Northampton folk, ntfc fans, its businesses and well wishers,  get Thomas to keep his money and get out..
We always look for an excuse as to do nothing and greatly exaggerate the costs and implications as being unattainable but over look the sobering fact that we're the only club in the top 5 divisions to never have improved our infrastructure to benefit our club these past 20 years!
Coincidentally the time we've been subjected to land grabbers mithering our council for free hand out!
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