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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1822767 times)
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« Reply #26480 on: February 10, 2020, 17:10:42 pm »

Kelvin Thomas and David Bower
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« Reply #26481 on: February 10, 2020, 17:31:31 pm »

The problem with this is that it is not a valid reason for denying planning permission and it would be easily overturned on appeal.
Grin I think KT and DB may have thought of an appeal in long 5 years......not going to happen.
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« Reply #26482 on: February 10, 2020, 17:59:06 pm »

Kelvin Thomas and David Bower
Kind of two ways round the same circle then!
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« Reply #26483 on: February 10, 2020, 18:04:54 pm »

Yes, it was recently that I heard about it via a message from someone, also KT alluded to a proposal made to the Council (or rather two proposals, one of which was rejected and the other still under consideration) in his last update.

From the update following the Supporters Advisory Panel last month.... "The current situation is that the club have made a couple of proposals to the council that allow the East Stand to be finished and for the Council to recover some money by sharing enabling development proceeds from the land. "

I believe he went into greater deal in one of the youtube videos.


Of course though, that's changed from the Q & A Update in October last year where KT said
"However, now as time has moved on and we are legally able to do this, we have completed the paperwork so CDNL is owned by the Football Club and there can be no misunderstanding that any proceeds from any land around the ground would only be used to benefit the Football Club."

So we've gone from proceeds from the land only benefiting the football club, to proceeds from the land benefiting the Football Club and the Council.
I see GPC. It would be great to know what's been so heavily redacted also.
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« Reply #26484 on: February 10, 2020, 18:22:04 pm »

I completely agree with you Drilling, anyone who takes on a lower league club to make money is bonkers.
I think there is a way where we the fans together with the council and the club could add some much needed capacity and more importantly seats with a quality view where new fans can sit together.
For me the way forward would be to expand the South stand with an upper tier, then split the stand in half 1100 away fans and 1100 home fans.
The foundation’s are already in place, this would be funded by 50% fans 25%council 25% club its been done at quite a few clubs now e.g. Stevenage, Wimbledon and Swindon.
Costs would be around 1 to 1.2m based on 1000 cost per seat.
I’d be up for it as would Melly........discuss
Now you’re talking, I would.
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« Reply #26485 on: February 10, 2020, 18:32:56 pm »

A couple of points.

First, a couple of people are not reading the CDNL information correctly at Companies House. CDNL is 100% owned by NTFC.

Second the Trust have posted this message on their website:

If you have any questions please ask them on this forum (i.e the Trust's website forum) and we will answer them as fully and as promptly as possible so that all supporters can be updated. Thanks.

I am not trying to steal the thunder of this website which I am sure will continue for a long time to come (and you will be thrilled to know I will be here) but please note that you can only post on the Trust's forum by registering with your real name. 
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« Reply #26486 on: February 10, 2020, 18:42:19 pm »

It is possible that the current investigations lead to a court case which may lead to the recovery of the money? If this were to happen would the council follow through with either the loan or a percentage of it? Could it be that the outcome of that saga is one of the elements that is affecting the decision making process? For there to be a court case the investigators would almost certainly know what happened to the cash? If they know the answer to that, it’s possible they could get it back? There is absolutely no way this investigation would have gone on for this long, using up this amount of resource unless there is a significant chance of a conviction. That much I do know. Just thought I would chuck that in, because it’s been on my mind all the way through?
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« Reply #26487 on: February 10, 2020, 18:52:58 pm »

Nope, MC.  The loan money was in fact EU money that came to NBC via Brussels - UK Government - NBC.  No criminal charges have been brought yet and if they are it will be ages before the cases to come to court. Assuming that the jury finds for the Crown any recovery of the missing millions is going to take years after the verdict(s) and I would reckon the bulk of the money left the UK a long time ago.  Also, there will be a different local authority to deal with in 2021.
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« Reply #26488 on: February 10, 2020, 19:15:41 pm »

Nope, MC.  The loan money was in fact EU money that came to NBC via Brussels - UK Government - NBC.  No criminal charges have been brought yet and if they are it will be ages before the cases to come to court. Assuming that the jury finds for the Crown any recovery of the missing millions is going to take years after the verdict(s) and I would reckon the bulk of the money left the UK a long time ago.  Also, there will be a different local authority to deal with in 2021.
How interesting. However, just because proceeds may be off shore, it doesn’t make them inaccessible. Organised crime often transcends borders and proceeds off shore wouldn’t and shouldn’t be the barrier you suggest? Not with the amount of international cooperation that is routine in modern times. All I am suggesting is that the there is in my view a significant barrier to the council in any guise assisting the club financially in future. That is the outstanding capital. If that is addressed then the landscape may change?

FYI this is reciprocal.

The POCA 2002 (External Requests and Orders) Order 2005 and the Criminal Justice (International Co-operation) Act 1990 (Enforcement of Overseas Forfeitures) Order 2005 permit the restraint of assets in the UK at the request of a foreign law enforcement agency and the enforcement in England and Wales of forfeiture orders granted by foreign courts, respectively.
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« Reply #26489 on: February 10, 2020, 19:33:55 pm »

Further to my previous post and in the unlikely senario that some may be interested, it is likely that a provision has already been made for the recovery of any off shore assets in the event of a conviction? The last point being particularly relative.

Seizing assets
The Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (POCA) provides the legislative framework for the granting of restraint and confiscation orders over assets in UK criminal proceedings. A number of the provisions in POCA concern cross-border co-operation.
Under section 74 of POCA, a prosecutor can send a request for assistance to another country, via the Secretary of State, to prohibit a person from dealing with realisable property in that jurisdiction. To exercise this power, one of the pre-conditions for a restraint order (set out at section 40) must be met and the prosecutor must have reasonable grounds to suspect that “realisable property” is situated in that foreign jurisdiction. Because the power under section 74 is contingent on the application of section 40, its scope mirrors that for restraint orders. Therefore, it can be exercised:
*       Where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the alleged offender has benefited from his criminal conduct.


*       To prevent the dissipation or hiding of the realisable property.


*       As soon as a criminal investigation has begun, and prior to a person's arrest. Before such an order under section 74 can be effective over the specified assets, however, it must be recognised in the country where those assets are located.

I find it interesting anyway? This thread goes down some increasingly bizarre avenues doesn't it?
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« Reply #26490 on: February 10, 2020, 19:40:14 pm »

Nope, MC.  The loan money was in fact EU money that came to NBC via Brussels - UK Government - NBC.  No criminal charges have been brought yet and if they are it will be ages before the cases to come to court. Assuming that the jury finds for the Crown any recovery of the missing millions is going to take years after the verdict(s) and I would reckon the bulk of the money left the UK a long time ago.  Also, there will be a different local authority to deal with in 2021.

The masses fail to recognise this, instead trotting out the mantra that "The Football Club stole council tax payers money".......as you mentioned, it was EU money from a separate finance stream. NBC acted as the facilitator for the money, in that it passed to them and they passed it straight to 1st Land.

The issue here is whether the Council was liable, either as a guarantor, or by way of repayment scheme because the proceeds from the development were meant to come back to them via the finance agreements and they then pay this money back.

So I assume they, as the guarantor or/and facilitator will have a repayment schedule to keep, which perhaps they may have managed to defer due to the ongoing criminal case.

In essence then it was never council tax payers money.....but one day council tax payers money could be used to pay the money back!
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« Reply #26491 on: February 10, 2020, 19:43:27 pm »

MC, it would in all probability take a very long time and then depending on where the money is parked is that country/jurisdiction signed up to reciprocity? For example, if, by some strange chance, the money or some of it is in Israel is that country a signatory?  I don't know because this is not what I do but I do know that there is no extradition treaty between the UK and Israel.  

Anyway, let's get back to topic.
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« Reply #26492 on: February 10, 2020, 19:45:35 pm »

MC, it would in all probability take a very long time and then depending on where the money is parked is that country/jurisdiction signed up to reciprocity? For example, if, by some strange chance, the money or some of it is in Israel is that country a signatory?  I don't know because this is not what I do but I do know that there is no extradition treaty between the UK and Israel.  

Anyway, let's get back to topic.

What was the topic? Oh yeah, apparently Redevelopment Is Closer Than Ever!   Grin
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« Reply #26493 on: February 10, 2020, 19:50:19 pm »

MC, it would in all probability take a very long time and then depending on where the money is parked is that country/jurisdiction signed up to reciprocity? For example, if, by some strange chance, the money or some of it is in Israel is that country a signatory?  I don't know because this is not what I do but I do know that there is no extradition treaty between the UK and Israel.  

Anyway, let's get back to topic.
All true, although recovery remains very possible. The point being that recovery and pre emptive action forms a significant part of an investigation. Meaning that the process may well already be underway?
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« Reply #26494 on: February 10, 2020, 19:58:37 pm »

What was the topic? Oh yeah, apparently Redevelopment Is Closer Than Ever!   Grin

Aka - how long is a piece of string?

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« Reply #26495 on: February 10, 2020, 20:29:03 pm »

Aka - how long is a piece of string?


Glad you asked Vintage. A length of string is relative to either A) The manufactured length as indicated at the point of sale. B) The length cut relative to perform the required task for which the product was engaged.
Or C) the length at which the string was broken or cut either during or post use. This length is indeterminate but always less than the length required at the point of original use.

I think I’m funny anyway?
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« Reply #26496 on: February 10, 2020, 22:33:13 pm »

Britains richest man Sir Jim Ratciffe had been linked with investing in Chelsea but considers the valuations of top-flight English cubs to be "a bit silly". Well the Cobblers are up for sale together with land for development for a lot less than "silly" money. I'm sure it would only take a bit of his loose change to turn Sixfields into a 15,000 capacity stadium and establish the club in the Championship. I wonder if he's up for a challenge?! Cheesy
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« Reply #26497 on: February 11, 2020, 08:05:44 am »

Grin I think KT and DB may have thought of an appeal in long 5 years......not going to happen.

Up to this point they have had nothing to appeal against. NBC have not declined any planning permission yet. If you read what I wrote it says that if finishing the East is a pre-requisite for planning permission for another project then that in itself is not a legal reason for rejection and can be easily appealed.
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« Reply #26498 on: February 11, 2020, 10:04:55 am »

Britains richest man Sir Jim Ratciffe had been linked with investing in Chelsea but considers the valuations of top-flight English cubs to be "a bit silly". Well the Cobblers are up for sale together with land for development for a lot less than "silly" money. I'm sure it would only take a bit of his loose change to turn Sixfields into a 15,000 capacity stadium and establish the club in the Championship. I wonder if he's up for a challenge?! Cheesy
He owns Nice (French League 1) and Lusanne (Swiss Division 2), an English Division 3 team would complete the set surely!
Might be worth an email from the Trust with a joint ownership proposal.
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« Reply #26499 on: February 11, 2020, 10:07:08 am »

Glad you asked Vintage. A length of string is relative to either A) The manufactured length as indicated at the point of sale. B) The length cut relative to perform the required task for which the product was engaged.
Or C) the length at which the string was broken or cut either during or post use. This length is indeterminate but always less than the length required at the point of original use.

I think I’m funny anyway?

Or (D), the string is still being manufactured as we speak in some Chinese sweatshop, a subsidiary of 5USports (operations currently on a slowdown due to staff being kept away to combat the Coronavirus), and grows daily to the point where a third warehouse has had to be erected in a record five day period of extensive construction work?

I'll get my coat......
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