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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1820336 times)
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« Reply #27300 on: August 24, 2020, 16:26:22 pm »

Claretparrot - thank you for your comment but the above is what this is what I posted at 16:08.  I hope this clarifies the position.

Thanks, Vintage. I did read that before I posted and my post was in response.

My point remains, that if all parties agree that the ES completion comes first chronologically then by definition the club/owners are going to have to put their own capital at risk. Granted, they will only do this in the hope/expectation of future returns over and above their outlay.

The real issue is that the owners' position in this regard could leave the other parties out of pocket if the development doesn't generate the expected returns. In any case it will leave the other parties worse off (and, of course the owners/club better off) than if the ES costs were reimbursed out of net profits. This is clearly an important point and warrants a full and healthy debate. I fully support the Trust in pursuing that point.

However, your 'not a £1 of their own money' headline over-simplifies the situation and makes it sound like the owners are demanding that someone else provides the up-front funding for the ES. At least, that's how I read it.
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« Reply #27301 on: August 24, 2020, 16:28:23 pm »

On

Then get involved in the Trust and find a better way or don't and stop sniping at them.

The old....
If you think that's sniping...you are too sensitive  Grin
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« Reply #27302 on: August 24, 2020, 16:30:35 pm »

Deepcut - please explain what you think is the Trust's current path and modus operandi that so upsets you?  

My understanding is that after 18 months of KT shutting out the Trust a meeting is due to take place before long. In the absence of meetings what course of action could the Trust take other than through the various releases it made throughout this period via its website and social media outlets?  None of the statements to my reading were inflammatory but the club's owners seem to have a thin skin when it comes to perfectly reasonable questions being asked and a number of you on this site have always jumped to KT's support when these questions have met with silence.  Why this default position in support of KT? As regards the east stand and redevelopment issues, the Trust set out its position in its open letter dated 14 August and that is clear enough to me.  

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« Reply #27303 on: August 24, 2020, 16:32:51 pm »

I don't even know what questions people want answers too anymore
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« Reply #27304 on: August 24, 2020, 16:41:03 pm »

I don't even know what questions people want answers too anymore

Grin
Why after ten years of nonsense and two chairman are we no nearer to having our ground redeveloped?
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« Reply #27305 on: August 24, 2020, 16:41:38 pm »

Claretparrot - no disagreement with your comments at all.  I think we will agree that the owners are seeking as close to a riskless transaction as is possible but it is apparent that the Council fearful of a Council taxpayer backlash cannot accept such a proposal.  
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« Reply #27306 on: August 24, 2020, 16:45:14 pm »

Grin
Why after ten years of nonsense and two chairman are we no nearer to having our ground redeveloped?

That's a bit harsh on Big Dave - he did get the old stand knocked down and a lump of concrete installed and KT stuck some seats on top of it....  Tongue

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« Reply #27307 on: August 24, 2020, 16:46:05 pm »

                                                       
                                                         NTFC Supporters Trust and Fan Ownership
The NTFC Supporters Trust would like to make it 100% clear that we have no “agenda” on fan ownership and anyone who thinks or says that we have simply does not understand our policy and objectives.  .

/quote]
 So  some people are still talking about "fan ownership" I've seen 2 or 3 people mention it today. To me, it looks like a quite straightforward denial from the Trust in the above statement, so why do people still mention it?
          I very much doubt that anyone would be looking to take over a football club at this point of time, especially one with debts north of £5M
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« Reply #27308 on: August 24, 2020, 18:08:58 pm »

That's a bit harsh on Big Dave - he did get the old stand knocked down and a lump of concrete installed and KT stuck some seats on top of it....  Tongue


That’s true. We did get an increased capacity stadium out of it........an increase of 145 seats. It’s not all bad  Huh?
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« Reply #27309 on: August 24, 2020, 18:16:30 pm »

Deepcut - please explain what you think is the Trust's current path and modus operandi that so upsets you?  

My understanding is that after 18 months of KT shutting out the Trust a meeting is due to take place before long. In the absence of meetings what course of action could the Trust take other than through the various releases it made throughout this period via its website and social media outlets?  None of the statements to my reading were inflammatory but the club's owners seem to have a thin skin when it comes to perfectly reasonable questions being asked and a number of you on this site have always jumped to KT's support when these questions have met with silence.  Why this default position in support of KT? As regards the east stand and redevelopment issues, the Trust set out its position in its open letter dated 14 August and that is clear enough to me.  



I have no axe to grind with either the Trust, NBC or NTFC/KT/DB: 

The Trust have been brought into a position where they are one of the three protagonists within this dispute rather than being a genuine facilitator of the overall cause.

Any peace negotiation requires the two protagonists to have trust and faith in the 'peacemaker', being able to work towards a similar/achievable solution and also be the positive messenger between the two, providing suggestive and conciliatory solutions within the framework of the negotiations, closing gaps and areas where there is disagreement.  Then, at the crucial stage(s) bring together the two parties to either talk through hurdles and/or effectively cross and dot the T's and I's.

By aiming hostile questions and demands for answers to effectively 'rub up' one of the players whilst perceiving to play soft ball with the other puts the peacemaker (Trust) in an untenable position.  Once this had been done, the Trust should have reconciled immediately with the club, they didn't and chose to effectively (by perception, if not the intention) side with NBC, which alienated them even more from the club.  With understandable consequences.

From a supporters point of view; without full transparency and disclosure of the current situation(s), the public interpretation/perception of the majority of the fan base is that the Trust were battling against the club for a cause, that anyone outside of the Trust bubble could see, was obviously not going to be achieved.  This has caused the disparate opinions of views here and on other media of NTFC. 

How will this be resolved? The Trust needs to initiate a 'hearts and minds' with the supporters bringing them back into the fold; remove all reference to the non-democratically agreed Fan Ownership investigations from any correspondence, including the Trust Mission Statement and provide transparency of all meetings decisions, votes and consultations of the membership; also gain the confidence and trust of both the Club and NBC as an unbiased intermediary and peacemaker in an attempt to resolve this saga to a satisfactory resolution.
This will take time, but by at least having an initial brief conversation with KT when the first invitation arrived, would have gone a long way to achieving that, rather than the high horse 'wait until we're ready' attitude and impression that was transmitted.  As I said at the time, if I was KT I would have told the Trust where to go.

The Trust is the organisation that can ask the right questions at the right time; act as the peacemaker and influencer between parties that are at odds but it needs to have 'friendly' feet in both camps to achieve that.  The Trust should not have taken on the role of hostile interrogator within this issue.  There will be other fan based issues that would be more appropriate to take that stance in the future. 
The Trust cannot be on the Board of the club, that will take away the opportunity to seriously question the club.  DC knew that and took advantage of it, that's why the Trust were invited to become a Board Member.

Vintage, you can also play a part in this on this board; Not everyone has access to all of the information and detail that you as a non Board member of the Trust has.  People form their opinions based on the level of information that they have to work with, the fact that your opinion is at odds with theirs, is not because they are 'intellectually deficient' or a 'KT lover', it is based on the different levels of information they have and the opinion that they have formed from it.  Not providing the full picture will always distort the vote.  The transparency of information in a legible manner and a more conciliatory and understanding attitude from yourself would help.

All or some of the above maybe wide of the mark, but it is my view and opinion from where I am sitting with access only to what I read/hear either here, the Trust website, C&E, the NTFC/You Tube interviews and on the Trust bus and amongst fellow supporters at away games, the latter usually over a couple of beers.  Take it, leave it or take only some, but it is the view of someone who has experience of negotiating on many issues/disputes, the principals are primarily the same.
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« Reply #27310 on: August 24, 2020, 18:24:47 pm »

I have no axe to grind with either the Trust, NBC or NTFC/KT/DB: 

The Trust have been brought into a position where they are one of the three protagonists within this dispute rather than being a genuine facilitator of the overall cause.

Any peace negotiation requires the two protagonists to have trust and faith in the 'peacemaker', being able to work towards a similar/achievable solution and also be the positive messenger between the two, providing suggestive and conciliatory solutions within the framework of the negotiations, closing gaps and areas where there is disagreement.  Then, at the crucial stage(s) bring together the two parties to either talk through hurdles and/or effectively cross and dot the T's and I's.

By aiming hostile questions and demands for answers to effectively 'rub up' one of the players whilst perceiving to play soft ball with the other puts the peacemaker (Trust) in an untenable position.  Once this had been done, the Trust should have reconciled immediately with the club, they didn't and chose to effectively (by perception, if not the intention) side with NBC, which alienated them even more from the club.  With understandable consequences.

From a supporters point of view; without full transparency and disclosure of the current situation(s), the public interpretation/perception of the majority of the fan base is that the Trust were battling against the club for a cause, that anyone outside of the Trust bubble could see, was obviously not going to be achieved.  This has caused the disparate opinions of views here and on other media of NTFC. 

How will this be resolved? The Trust needs to initiate a 'hearts and minds' with the supporters bringing them back into the fold; remove all reference to the non-democratically agreed Fan Ownership investigations from any correspondence, including the Trust Mission Statement and provide transparency of all meetings decisions, votes and consultations of the membership; also gain the confidence and trust of both the Club and NBC as an unbiased intermediary and peacemaker in an attempt to resolve this saga to a satisfactory resolution.
This will take time, but by at least having an initial brief conversation with KT when the first invitation arrived, would have gone a long way to achieving that, rather than the high horse 'wait until we're ready' attitude and impression that was transmitted.  As I said at the time, if I was KT I would have told the Trust where to go.

The Trust is the organisation that can ask the right questions at the right time; act as the peacemaker and influencer between parties that are at odds but it needs to have 'friendly' feet in both camps to achieve that.  The Trust should not have taken on the role of hostile interrogator within this issue.  There will be other fan based issues that would be more appropriate to take that stance in the future. 
The Trust cannot be on the Board of the club, that will take away the opportunity to seriously question the club.  DC knew that and took advantage of it, that's why the Trust were invited to become a Board Member.

Vintage, you can also play a part in this on this board; Not everyone has access to all of the information and detail that you as a non Board member of the Trust has.  People form their opinions based on the level of information that they have to work with, the fact that your opinion is at odds with theirs, is not because they are 'intellectually deficient' or a 'KT lover', it is based on the different levels of information they have and the opinion that they have formed from it.  Not providing the full picture will always distort the vote.  The transparency of information in a legible manner and a more conciliatory and understanding attitude from yourself would help.

All or some of the above maybe wide of the mark, but it is my view and opinion from where I am sitting with access only to what I read/hear either here, the Trust website, C&E, the NTFC/You Tube interviews and on the Trust bus and amongst fellow supporters at away games, the latter usually over a couple of beers.  Take it, leave it or take only some, but it is the view of someone who has experience of negotiating on many issues/disputes, the principals are primarily the same.

In my opinion...

Absolutely THE best post I have seen on this forum for many weeks!

Nail and head springs to mind for me with regards to negotiation and mediation.
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« Reply #27311 on: August 24, 2020, 18:27:11 pm »

I have no axe to grind with either the Trust, NBC or NTFC/KT/DB: 

The Trust have been brought into a position where they are one of the three protagonists within this dispute rather than being a genuine facilitator of the overall cause.

Any peace negotiation requires the two protagonists to have trust and faith in the 'peacemaker', being able to work towards a similar/achievable solution and also be the positive messenger between the two, providing suggestive and conciliatory solutions within the framework of the negotiations, closing gaps and areas where there is disagreement.  Then, at the crucial stage(s) bring together the two parties to either talk through hurdles and/or effectively cross and dot the T's and I's.

By aiming hostile questions and demands for answers to effectively 'rub up' one of the players whilst perceiving to play soft ball with the other puts the peacemaker (Trust) in an untenable position.  Once this had been done, the Trust should have reconciled immediately with the club, they didn't and chose to effectively (by perception, if not the intention) side with NBC, which alienated them even more from the club.  With understandable consequences.

From a supporters point of view; without full transparency and disclosure of the current situation(s), the public interpretation/perception of the majority of the fan base is that the Trust were battling against the club for a cause, that anyone outside of the Trust bubble could see, was obviously not going to be achieved.  This has caused the disparate opinions of views here and on other media of NTFC. 

How will this be resolved? The Trust needs to initiate a 'hearts and minds' with the supporters bringing them back into the fold; remove all reference to the non-democratically agreed Fan Ownership investigations from any correspondence, including the Trust Mission Statement and provide transparency of all meetings decisions, votes and consultations of the membership; also gain the confidence and trust of both the Club and NBC as an unbiased intermediary and peacemaker in an attempt to resolve this saga to a satisfactory resolution.
This will take time, but by at least having an initial brief conversation with KT when the first invitation arrived, would have gone a long way to achieving that, rather than the high horse 'wait until we're ready' attitude and impression that was transmitted.  As I said at the time, if I was KT I would have told the Trust where to go.

The Trust is the organisation that can ask the right questions at the right time; act as the peacemaker and influencer between parties that are at odds but it needs to have 'friendly' feet in both camps to achieve that.  The Trust should not have taken on the role of hostile interrogator within this issue.  There will be other fan based issues that would be more appropriate to take that stance in the future. 
The Trust cannot be on the Board of the club, that will take away the opportunity to seriously question the club.  DC knew that and took advantage of it, that's why the Trust were invited to become a Board Member.

Vintage, you can also play a part in this on this board; Not everyone has access to all of the information and detail that you as a non Board member of the Trust has.  People form their opinions based on the level of information that they have to work with, the fact that your opinion is at odds with theirs, is not because they are 'intellectually deficient' or a 'KT lover', it is based on the different levels of information they have and the opinion that they have formed from it.  Not providing the full picture will always distort the vote.  The transparency of information in a legible manner and a more conciliatory and understanding attitude from yourself would help.

All or some of the above maybe wide of the mark, but it is my view and opinion from where I am sitting with access only to what I read/hear either here, the Trust website, C&E, the NTFC/You Tube interviews and on the Trust bus and amongst fellow supporters at away games, the latter usually over a couple of beers.  Take it, leave it or take only some, but it is the view of someone who has experience of negotiating on many issues/disputes, the principals are primarily the same.

Very, very well said.
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« Reply #27312 on: August 24, 2020, 18:57:51 pm »

A great post, Deepcut!
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« Reply #27313 on: August 24, 2020, 18:58:12 pm »

Deepcut - I appreciate your thoughts but I doubt that the Trust is going to respond to what you have written on this site.  This is not its forum and it seems to me that very few Trust directors visit this site yet alone post on it. In fact so far as I can see few of the Trust directors are active on social media. But the Trust is not an arbitrator or peace maker. It is an independent organisation whose role is to seek to safeguard the club and its future.  It has its own views on the East Stand and the wider development and these have been published for all to read and understand.

As for me, what I know and have found out is largely but not wholly from looking into what is available at Companies House and the Land Registry.

I would say this that based on encounters I have had not only on this site but from time to time elsewhere the lack of knowledge about the development land, NBC's position and other situations is frightening.  Posters are making comments with perceptions not information. People tend to believe what they want to believe and then when the facts (not opinions) are put to them they go into denial.  As I have commented today, the inconvenient truth.
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« Reply #27314 on: August 24, 2020, 19:07:06 pm »

People need to believe conspiracy theories because the truth is too hard for them to handle.
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« Reply #27315 on: August 24, 2020, 20:14:35 pm »

People need to believe conspiracy theories because the truth is too hard for them to handle.

The truth is out there.
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« Reply #27316 on: August 24, 2020, 20:40:11 pm »

Deepcut - I appreciate your thoughts but I doubt that the Trust is going to respond to what you have written on this site.  This is not its forum and it seems to me that very few Trust directors visit this site yet alone post on it. In fact so far as I can see few of the Trust directors are active on social media. But the Trust is not an arbitrator or peace maker. It is an independent organisation whose role is to seek to safeguard the club and its future.  It has its own views on the East Stand and the wider development and these have been published for all to read and understand.

As for me, what I know and have found out is largely but not wholly from looking into what is available at Companies House and the Land Registry.

I would say this that based on encounters I have had not only on this site but from time to time elsewhere the lack of knowledge about the development land, NBC's position and other situations is frightening.  Posters are making comments with perceptions not information. People tend to believe what they want to believe and then when the facts (not opinions) are put to them they go into denial.  As I have commented today, the inconvenient truth.

Just get over yourself, and allow it to move on..
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« Reply #27317 on: August 24, 2020, 20:54:02 pm »

Deepcut - I appreciate your thoughts but I doubt that the Trust is going to respond to what you have written on this site.  This is not its forum and it seems to me that very few Trust directors visit this site yet alone post on it. In fact so far as I can see few of the Trust directors are active on social media. But the Trust is not an arbitrator or peace maker. It is an independent organisation whose role is to seek to safeguard the club and its future.  It has its own views on the East Stand and the wider development and these have been published for all to read and understand.

As for me, what I know and have found out is largely but not wholly from looking into what is available at Companies House and the Land Registry.

I would say this that based on encounters I have had not only on this site but from time to time elsewhere the lack of knowledge about the development land, NBC's position and other situations is frightening.  Posters are making comments with perceptions not information. People tend to believe what they want to believe and then when the facts (not opinions) are put to them they go into denial.  As I have commented today, the inconvenient truth.

You, not the Trust, asked me to explain and express my thoughts. I did.
If we are not aware of any of the detail, that is what you will get. But again, you do not provide the information, just a warning, including a veiled slight towards posters on this site about how much you know and how bad it is.
What is the role of the Trust in this dispute?
I would suggest that it is as an arbiter, if they/you believe differently, that's probably why they are getting it so wrong?
As an arbiter, the Trust would be intimate in the safeguarding of the club with a valued opportunity to influence both parties.
I know and talk to one of the Trust Board who frequents this board, why are the others not active on any of the various club associated social media? Isn't that quite a gap in their being able to gauge the atmosphere and opinions of the fan base? It's the 21st century isn't it?
If the Trust had the trust and confidence of NBC and NTFC, you wouldn't have needed to hunt for the information, it would have been available.
There are other issues that the Trust need/could be involved with as the fans representatives and as protagonists, this is not one of them.
Again: In my opinion.
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« Reply #27318 on: August 24, 2020, 21:06:24 pm »

You, not the Trust, asked me to explain and express my thoughts. I did.
If we are not aware of any of the detail, that is what you will get. But again, you do not provide the information, just a warning, including a veiled slight towards posters on this site about how much you know and how bad it is.
What is the role of the Trust in this dispute?
I would suggest that it is as an arbiter, if they/you believe differently, that's probably why they are getting it so wrong?
As an arbiter, the Trust would be intimate in the safeguarding of the club with a valued opportunity to influence both parties.
I know and talk to one of the Trust Board who frequents this board, why are the others not active on any of the various club associated social media? Isn't that quite a gap in their being able to gauge the atmosphere and opinions of the fan base? It's the 21st century isn't it?
If the Trust had the trust and confidence of NBC and NTFC, you wouldn't have needed to hunt for the information, it would have been available.
There are other issues that the Trust need/could be involved with as the fans representatives and as protagonists, this is not one of them.
Again: In my opinion.

Why do you see the Trust as an arbiter and how could that ever work? They have no authority over the Council or the Club.
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« Reply #27319 on: August 24, 2020, 21:10:57 pm »

Why do you see the Trust as an arbiter and how could that ever work? They have no authority over the Council or the Club.

Arbiter was the term Vintage used, I used peacemaker if you read my original post, which has a slightly different meaning. Irrespective, you do not need to have an authority in the role.
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