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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Peter Frost
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« Reply #30360 on: December 01, 2021, 18:51:10 pm »

I called out Thomas in his first month  when he started pouring cold water on his promised £4m redevelopment...Belittling our club and its redevelopment needs, was how I put it. I suspected he was burying the bad news at a time when most of our fans were on their hands and knees kissing his ar5e...
Dont believe me? See 7000 pages back😂😉

Cardoza was a strange one, he would say the right things for the first 5 years, he spent money on the team, all was good,  but then the old building of vast debts without improving anything appeared like it has again, It was then he started making my pi55 boil.

If you're reading this Tom Cliff, I must apologise as I've taken over your role as the voice of the fans. 😂😂

I'm not arguing with your views on DC & KT or suggesting I'm grateful for them keeping the club afloat etc etc  - I'm simply saying no one can be certain it would have been better without them. DC has long gone, KT probably too in the not to distant future and between the two of them a giant opportunity missed but isn't it time to focus on the future rather than banging the same old drum?
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« Reply #30361 on: December 01, 2021, 18:51:30 pm »

The ACV does include the athletics track but I'm not sure what relevance the ACV has to the plans.
All that the ACV means is if the ACV land isnt part of the stadium footprint and part of the land they want to sell they need to give the Trust 6 months to raise the funds, but still don't actually have to sell it to them.
Interestingly the ACV will expire Feb 2024 (unless renewed), I wonder if that's a reason that KT wanted longer to complete the stadium prior to purchasing the development land.

The council slides on the potential deal also references a break clause in the lease in 2024. If I was Thomas/DB I’d be very mindful of this as a risk. If I was on the council and in particular anyone involved in taking their eye off the ball during CDNL administration I’d also be keeping an eye on this bit.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting it but it must have some relevance and leverage.
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I think someone should just take this city of Peterborough and just... just flush it down the f***in' toilet

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« Reply #30362 on: December 01, 2021, 18:58:54 pm »

I'm not arguing with your views on DC & KT or suggesting I'm grateful for them keeping the club afloat etc etc  - I'm simply saying no one can be certain it would have been better without them. DC has long gone, KT probably too in the not to distant future and between the two of them a giant opportunity missed but isn't it time to focus on the future rather than banging the same old drum?

But the future would appear to be £7m in debt now, plus another £4m to complete the stand, plus £1m to buy the land....£12m, and the club saying that the boxes and new facilities would bring in £250k per year extra, yet still see the club running at a 500k loss per year.

The club would tell you that over 97% of its fans are happy with that scenario playing out!
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« Reply #30363 on: December 01, 2021, 19:09:57 pm »

But the future would appear to be £7m in debt now, plus another £4m to complete the stand, plus £1m to buy the land....£12m, and the club saying that the boxes and new facilities would bring in £250k per year extra, yet still see the club running at a 500k loss per year.

The club would tell you that over 97% of its fans are happy with that scenario playing out!

So how are we going to change that? - the council seem to have no desire to put any additional clauses on the land sale other than completion of the very mediocre stand. I’m not sure I understand the full implications of debt issue as clearly there is no way anyone buying the club in the future is going to assume that debt - it’s not like a debt to a bank, HMRC or typical business creditors. I haven’t got the answers here nor for the record am I happy about the missed opportunity (although I think that ship sailed when the £10 million was stolen).
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« Reply #30364 on: December 01, 2021, 19:14:00 pm »

I think the price point has an impact. The Saints can command it as it’s Premiership sport.
Paying £60+ (on tickets alone) to sit and watch League One and League Two teams isn’t going to happen on a regular basis for most families. Take that down to the single person and if you are parking and having a coffee you’re up to a £30 trip out for a couple of hours.
Reasonably priced ST’s in a bigger stadium is our best bet.
Having a bigger ground and cheaper match day prices could also boost attendances and revenue. There’s a sweet spot somewhere. As it is I doubt the prices could be adjusted much to boost the coffers and I’m sure they do their sums.
I’d still try a few packages to test it out…5 for £100 as an example, or buy 5 get one free.
I’m sure they’ll be some larger grounds possibly in the Prem and Championship with prices not too far off ours.
These elusive people within the catchment will only come if you dangle the carrot and not because it’s the Cobblers.
I agree with a lot of this, £24 on the day is a much too higher price for League 2 football. But NTFC use zero marketing when it comes to the average fan. last week did they consider an offer like buy an Oldham ticket and get £10 off the Orient match ? No it never crossed their minds. When you do get people in to Sixfields do we do a "happy hour" in Carrs Bar to get them in early ? No we only have one TV working, beer at over a £1 a pint dearer than our competitors and , last Tuesday, the far end of the bar had the shutters down and a load of chairs stacked in front of it because someone couldn't be arsed to stack them in the corridor 5 yards away !!! Even Prem clubs like West Ham do "happy hours" to get the fans in their bars so they get the profit.
     No food in Carrs Bar, why not ? Put up 4 decent sized TV's (less than £400 each at Tesco) and get BT Sports, at least try to make it feel like a "sports bar" Put an awning up over the outside bit, properly cost around £1K but you could sell the advertising space on it for that. Will they try any of these, or other, idea's , no because the would cost a small amount of money and NTFC only want to spend the absolute minimum , no speculate to accumulate here !!!
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« Reply #30365 on: December 01, 2021, 19:41:13 pm »

I am not aware of a sport you can play in an industrial warehouse so I guess that could be a bit of an issue.
I fully expect the trust to look at extending the ACV at their earliest convenience.
Happy to be corrected by the Trust but I don’t believe the ACV mandates the land has to be for sport, just to benefit the community. So a car park for example  Cheesy Tongue
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« Reply #30366 on: December 01, 2021, 19:45:56 pm »

I'm not arguing with your views on DC & KT or suggesting I'm grateful for them keeping the club afloat etc etc  - I'm simply saying no one can be certain it would have been better without them. DC has long gone, KT probably too in the not to distant future and between the two of them a giant opportunity missed but isn't it time to focus on the future rather than banging the same old drum?
Absolutely,  it's all about the future... Without land obsessed ownership and one we need to get the best deal in order to make the best of it after the past 2 wasted decades
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« Reply #30367 on: December 01, 2021, 19:47:34 pm »

Happy to be corrected by the Trust but I don’t believe the ACV mandates the land has to be for sport, just to benefit the community. So a car park for example  Cheesy Tongue
An Asset of Community Value is defined as:
      "A building or other land is an asset of community value if its main use has recently been or is presently used to further the social wellbeing or social interests of the local community and could do so in the future. The Localism Act states that ‘social interests’ include cultural, recreational and sporting interests."
    So I doubt you could go from a football ground to a Car Park
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« Reply #30368 on: December 01, 2021, 19:54:25 pm »

Apologies I did think it might not be clear. The stadium has to remain a stadium but there aren’t any stipulations about the land the athletics stadium was on.
I guess the point I’m making badly is I don’t believe the proposals contravene the ACV, unless they try to sell some of the land that is under the ACV.

Edit: although it’s not actually the ACV that means it has to remain a stadium. The ACV has an influence on planning applications, which have been agreed in principle (although that principle seems to be waning somewhat)
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« Reply #30369 on: December 01, 2021, 20:13:20 pm »

Not sure from what angle you're coming from, but, all I want to see is an established L1 club with ambition of taking the next step up, playing in an exciting stadium that holds 12000 to allow just a tiny 2.5% upto 3% proportion of its vast catchment to attend regularly allowing upto 3000 visitors,  space permitting.
I don't care where these fans parents migrated from, be it London, the commonwealth or Ireland like my parents did in 1957, I was born in 1961, my first game in 1966 then regularly from 1970..
Football is entertainment,  the Stadium is its theatre and if it looks professional, fans will flock.

A week ago you wanted a doubling of 2% of the 300,000 to 4% of the 300,000.
Do you have a random bullcrud generating machine at home?
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« Reply #30370 on: December 01, 2021, 20:15:56 pm »

Happy to be corrected by the Trust but I don’t believe the ACV mandates the land has to be for sport, just to benefit the community. So a car park for example  Cheesy Tongue

There are a number of different leases which cover the whole development area, however the specific lease which covers the athletics track area does have a restriction which states that the land can only be used for ‘sports use including athletics’

Of course, the current deal would formalise the leases remove such restrictions.

The clubs plans would see the proposed car park extend to roughly cover one third of the current lease area. The other two thirds is ‘clean land’ which does not require remediation and as such is primed to be the first parcel of land to be sold off for development.
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« Reply #30371 on: December 01, 2021, 20:28:46 pm »

Appreciate the information GPC.
So the ACV will kick in if / when they look to sell the 2/3 of the land, or they wait until 2024 and hope the ACV isn’t renewed or approved.
I wonder if the new ACV would only be approved on the leases covering the developed area (the car park third), and not the remaining 2/3. Maybe something for the Trust to get advice on if you haven’t already.
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« Reply #30372 on: December 01, 2021, 20:36:27 pm »

But the future would appear to be £7m in debt now, plus another £4m to complete the stand, plus £1m to buy the land....£12m, and the club saying that the boxes and new facilities would bring in £250k per year extra, yet still see the club running at a 500k loss per year.

The club would tell you that over 97% of its fans are happy with that scenario playing out!

Ok so I'm confused.  I've read these figures many times.  So what's the practical, financially viable, alternative vision being proposed by the Trust or anyone else for that matter?

I think Peter Frost sums it up really well.

Whether you like the plan or not 97% agreed with it.  I mean even the Trust supported this same plan 12 months ago.

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« Reply #30373 on: December 01, 2021, 20:39:20 pm »

I agree with a lot of this, £24 on the day is a much too higher price for League 2 football. But NTFC use zero marketing when it comes to the average fan. last week did they consider an offer like buy an Oldham ticket and get £10 off the Orient match ? No it never crossed their minds. When you do get people in to Sixfields do we do a "happy hour" in Carrs Bar to get them in early ? No we only have one TV working, beer at over a £1 a pint dearer than our competitors and , last Tuesday, the far end of the bar had the shutters down and a load of chairs stacked in front of it because someone couldn't be arsed to stack them in the corridor 5 yards away !!! Even Prem clubs like West Ham do "happy hours" to get the fans in their bars so they get the profit.
     No food in Carrs Bar, why not ? Put up 4 decent sized TV's (less than £400 each at Tesco) and get BT Sports, at least try to make it feel like a "sports bar" Put an awning up over the outside bit, properly cost around £1K but you could sell the advertising space on it for that. Will they try any of these, or other, idea's , no because the would cost a small amount of money and NTFC only want to spend the absolute minimum , no speculate to accumulate here !!!

Carrs Bar sounds like a nice little project a fan led infrastructure foundation could raise funding for and manage.
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« Reply #30374 on: December 01, 2021, 21:24:44 pm »

But the future would appear to be £7m in debt now, plus another £4m to complete the stand, plus £1m to buy the land....£12m, and the club saying that the boxes and new facilities would bring in £250k per year extra, yet still see the club running at a 500k loss per year.

The club would tell you that over 97% of its fans are happy with that scenario playing out!

Update on Facebook from the Trust since my last post which is interesting.

Charles from the pod posed a few, in my opinion fair, questions following the earlier statement made by the Trust.

As is customary on Facebook he was immediately reprimanded by Stefan the new Trust board member as being negative followed quickly by the Trust "legal advisor" John for not asking questions of KT.  If you frequent Facebook reguarly you'll see those characters and a couple of others reguarly respond if you have the cheek to ask any questions of the Trust.  But remember John isn't the Trust....that's important.

Charle's asked...

"Could you clarify what you mean by "satisfactory standard" and what would be deemed as protecting the original footprint of the club's land please. Also, can you be more specific in what other options there are that would protect the long-term viability of the football club. Am I right in surmising that you do not believe that club's advertised plans are satisfactory and provide long-term viability for the football club?"

Stefan replied...

"Charles why do you end with such a negative conclusion, rather than approaching the topic with a more enquiring positive mind set."

John replied ...

"It is not for me to answer your questions but I am wondering when have you ever asked any such questions of KT/the club?"

The Supporters Trust then responded...

"Charles We want a completed East stand to be fit for purpose, ideally with as many seats as the West, with improved facilities for supporters and sponsors, finished to a good standard with scope to link to future expansion of the north and south stands.
For us the key is the old athletics track land which we believe should be wholly retained by the club for future investment benefit - hotel, training pitches, leisure facility? - and not half of it sold off for housing or warehouses.
We think this would increase the club's asset base and better protect the long-term viability of the club.
The owners themselves admit that the present deal will likely still leave the club with ongoing debt, even allowing for increased revenues from the East stand."

So a couple of questions Grange.

I take it this is the official view of the Trust Board and is what is being proposed to the club on our behalf?  Don't get me wrong sounds great to me.  I like it.  So given your obvious and valid concerns regarding the figures as stated above how is this proposal going to be funded?  And what potential revenue figures will it bring in?  You are looking at building a stand double the size of the one planned, potentially a hotel/leisure facility without using any of the clubs footprint land to fund it.  If the rest of the development land is worth £1m as you were also rightly concerned about previously then this "new plan" will surely be giving you nightmares?
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« Reply #30375 on: December 01, 2021, 22:06:53 pm »

The difference being that if the ACV land was retained BY THE CLUB, and then used possibly to build some of the items you have mentioned, then the revenue streams from a hotel, a leisure facility, or training pitches (via savings made from not having to hire/use Moulton and to be available to be hired out to other parties) would go DIRECTLY to the club rather than be sold off to a property developer to build a warehouse on and the proceeds used to pay off a debt incurred and apparently due to KT and DB.

The ACV land is clean and ready, and actually on its own is worth more than the price being quoted by the Council for the whole package of land proposed in the deal. The fact that most of the other land needs remediation to varying degrees drives the total value of the land down......the money is there in the Athletics land (ACV land) if that were sold, and if it was sold and used for some of the options I have listed it would be worth more to the Football Club that way, short term and long term.

The other option is to retain the land and take a cut of revenue streams gained as was proposed by Cardoza (he planned to build a hotel on the West and charge rent plus take a cut of proceeds and revenues)

These thoughts are mainly my own by the way, but some of these options have been mentioned in the round (as you have quoted above). That leads us to the Trust wanting to protect the ACV land as an asset.....an asset not of the Trust but of the Club don't forget.

Another interesting point....at least I think it is. KT made a veiled threat that if the deal fell then the Trust "would find itself on the wrong side of history"....but then went on to say that if the deal was not approved by WNC the future of the club was in peril but that he and David Bower would not be seriously affected financially.

So on the one hand it would appear that KT and DB have pumped in and propped up the club to the tune of £7m and rising, but if this all fell down then they would not be seriously affected financially?? Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what that actually means?
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« Reply #30376 on: December 02, 2021, 00:00:05 am »

Ok so I think I understand what you are saying and I like it.  In simple terms, finish the East Stand as Cardoza originally planned and build a hotel, leisure facility and/or football pitches on some/all of the ACV running track land.  This will provide additional revenue streams from the east stand facilities and from the business or businesses on the ACV land.  Or we gain a one off income by selling some or all of the ACV land.

This is what the Trust is proposing according to their statement on Facebook?

I reckon if you put that alternative out to the vote you'd expect to get 100% of the fans support it.

So the obvious next question is who is paying for all of this?  Where is the initial funding coming from to achieve all of this?  How much will it cost?  What are the projected increased annual revenues?  Basically what's the business case?

Is the Trust comfortable with a much increased debt for these proposals as opposed to the current ones?  Is that debt expected to be to the owners or through other funding?  Is there any acceptance that the owners will get any of their debt paid off?

Bear in mind no ACV land sale means a large decrease in development funds coming in and in addition no further development land gets released till the new and improved East Stand is completed.  Remember also the additional development land that gets released is worth £1m.

These are all fair questions I'm sure you would agree.  The proposals also carry risk which you have stated previously on many occasions.  I would suggest that in a lot of ways these carry a greater risk than the current proposals being made by the club.

You said these questions had been mentioned "in the round".  To me I understand that to mean in detail so what level of detail are we talking and as I said previously has this proposal been put to the club and what was their response?  If they responded with it wasn't financially viable what evidence was produced to show it was?
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« Reply #30377 on: December 02, 2021, 00:30:56 am »

The difference being that if the ACV land was retained BY THE CLUB, and then used possibly to build some of the items you have mentioned, then the revenue streams from a hotel, a leisure facility, or training pitches (via savings made from not having to hire/use Moulton and to be available to be hired out to other parties) would go DIRECTLY to the club rather than be sold off to a property developer to build a warehouse on and the proceeds used to pay off a debt incurred and apparently due to KT and DB.

The ACV land is clean and ready, and actually on its own is worth more than the price being quoted by the Council for the whole package of land proposed in the deal. The fact that most of the other land needs remediation to varying degrees drives the total value of the land down......the money is there in the Athletics land (ACV land) if that were sold, and if it was sold and used for some of the options I have listed it would be worth more to the Football Club that way, short term and long term.

The other option is to retain the land and take a cut of revenue streams gained as was proposed by Cardoza (he planned to build a hotel on the West and charge rent plus take a cut of proceeds and revenues)

These thoughts are mainly my own by the way, but some of these options have been mentioned in the round (as you have quoted above). That leads us to the Trust wanting to protect the ACV land as an asset.....an asset not of the Trust but of the Club don't forget.

Another interesting point....at least I think it is. KT made a veiled threat that if the deal fell then the Trust "would find itself on the wrong side of history"....but then went on to say that if the deal was not approved by WNC the future of the club was in peril but that he and David Bower would not be seriously affected financially.

So on the one hand it would appear that KT and DB have pumped in and propped up the club to the tune of £7m and rising, but if this all fell down then they would not be seriously affected financially?? Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what that actually means?

For those of us not party to Trust discussions thanks for the updates. Mr Hammer asks some excellent questions and out of interest, other than securing some form of revenue from this land for the club what are the Trusts long term strategies and initiatives for mitigating club debt?





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« Reply #30378 on: December 02, 2021, 06:21:28 am »

Ah the wisdom of a man who can go back in time, change history and predict the future...............
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« Reply #30379 on: December 02, 2021, 08:23:52 am »

Is this the Trusts official position "we want a completed East Stand fit for purpose, ideally with as many seats as the West" ?

I mean, wouldn't we all, but as that involves knocking down the majority of the existing abortion and starting again is this realistic or Cloud Cuckoo Land - you decide...
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