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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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MCHammer
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« Reply #41740 on: December 06, 2023, 22:57:25 pm »

Thanks Peter, sorry but I don't like the excuse that it's a business and so they can do as they like - NTFC is not a normal business, it really should not be accepted as such by supporters - or are you on the Tesco fans messageboard or perhaps Ipswich or some other business - no you are not)

Re the ACV land that is 2 acres of land worth in excess of £2m that the owners want to take (asset strip) from the club to pay back their unproven debt (in unaudited accounts on their say so)

DC had a £7m debt he received zero back, DB / KT have already received £6.68m (£1.1m they want twice as is loaded onto the club as debt for receiving the club back) So again i don't understand why fans seem very happy for them to get £13m plus out of our club, especially at the minute when not 1p or one nail has been put into the East stand in the last 7 years

Agree re the land not being an asset but again only to a point. They gained that land due to their involvement in NTFC, they were forced to connect it to NTFC by the council, so now it is a club asset - yet you want to give them their cake and let them eat yours too

Now is not the time to give up - its more important than ever than the club get a fair deal - do you really trust DB & KT to deliver on that?

Your figures don't work.  I've made this point several times over the years but you keep doing the same thing regardless.  You can't double count the Chinese money even if I pretend to believe everything you say about it....which I don't.

If you get a tenner from a family member for your birthday and you lend it to me, interest free, when I return it do you now have twenty quid?
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MCHammer
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« Reply #41741 on: December 06, 2023, 23:14:30 pm »

Ok I will bite, I will be the easy target for further ridicule and abuse but here goes.......

I think that almost all fans want and expect (sort of) that we are an established L1 club looking to have a shot at the Championship

I don't think that is unreasonable but to do it we need a bigger stadium. That is not negotiable, the stadium has to come first before players as much as fans will hate that. Every spare penny should go towards infrastructure after a fair and sensible playing budget.

It has to be a joint effort involving as many people as possible rather than hoping for a rich owner etc -

I would look to create a community, almost not for profit football club, all monies re invested into the club, no money put in as debt to be reclaimed by land deals or anything else.

I strongly believe that many supporters (rich and poor) plus many more businesses would be willing to pay more to support the club if it was community owned.

I don't know the best vehicle to do this, 50+1, golden share, co-op, prop-co, etc etc

I would look at the best way to raise £10m +  (funny if only we have some land to sell) on a very very very long mortgage to develop the ground NOW.

I would ask DB to sell the club for £1 and a share of the land deal for him to go and leave the East stand unfinished

I would ask supporters views and a fresh look at what the club needs with a £12m budget or so - for me saying its going to cost £6m to add 300 seats to the East is not the answer.

For me that would be to add seats and facilities to North and South stands, add safe stand there too and look at how we can put corporate boxes in the West

I would ask for a massive group of volunteers to help in every aspect of the club, use supporters knowledge, experience and passion to drive best practice and constant improvement.

The people on this board alone would have skills that could benefit and improve the club given the opportunity.

Running a football club is not easy but it aint rocket science either.

If we can get Sixfields to 12000 then we have a fair chance, building a team first has never worked for us or would say no one else (unless you luck out with a year or two in the Prem) but without bums on seats it all fades away.

I would also try to get the Council far more engaged with the club and see it's sporting clubs as a vital part of the town and is worth believing in and really supporting

3000 fans putting an extra £25 per month on average is £900k per year, which would easily pay for a £10m mortgage to expand the ground. (given other investments, increased turnover and sensible spending the club could be "break-even")

However 3000 fans won't put that money in if the club is owned by individuals - whoever they are

That is why it has to be a joint effort and community based and majority owned

Couple of comments.

12k capacity would put us 13th in league one for capacity.  Up from 20th.  You would need another 4k increase in capacity to get to tenth place.

In the Championship a 12k capacity would put us equal last requiring an 18k capacity to move level with the next side above.

Clearly 12k would be a start but on the figures quoted there would still be a long way to go to achieve anything like your short term plan let alone more.

The other simple question I would ask is what in your capacity as Trust Board member and the rest of the board for that matter achieved towards anything you have listed above.  So far what progress have you made?

The final point really is running a club to a 50+1 model or similar is fine if the majority of clubs are doing the same.  Running to break even is a fine aspiration till you come across the majority of clubs who aren't.
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« Reply #41742 on: December 07, 2023, 00:01:09 am »

Count me out of Beds scheme please.

I can barely afford my bills let alone pay extra money to a football club.
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« Reply #41743 on: December 07, 2023, 03:47:36 am »

What is your problem Dale, is all that sun finally having an affect on you?

Tell me when was the last time you visited sixfields? how many times in the last 8 years have you been to a game?

Why do you care about what happens - you live 10000 miles away and have done for well over a decade.

Yes I know I will get the usual oh it doesn't matter where you live etc etc, but it does when you get more and more abusive to people who want a better club and have to drive past s*** sixfields on a daily basis.

Again it was not a firm agreement was it cos we cancelled it so please stop acting like it was a done deal.

In relation to that bit of ACV land, how much income has been produced from it in since KT arrived?  So not sure why you are so anti it being used to generate income with a cheap to set-up and run operation and even cheaper to dismantle to use the land for something else in the future.




Here we go again, same old misdirection. My problem is Derek that I have spent £500 with the club this season, so as my money is as good as anyone else’s my opinion on what I am getting for it is also as valid. In addition I am a life member of the Trust and have asked direct questions of the Board and when they went unanswered of you personally as my representative, especially since you decided to stick the boot in yet again. Time and again you have raised my geographical location as a reason to discount my questions and also cast doubt on whether I should ask them at all.
You have implemented a plan which I have reasonable grounds to suspect was a strategy to drive the owners out of the club. This was without any clear idea on how to support the club should this happen. You have added delays and costs for the Club which has undoubtedly affected the performance of the club at every level including recruitment, playing budget and all points in between. What you need to do is justify your actions regarding the ACV application by demonstrating you had a workable plan to deliver what you claimed it could. Until such time that you do, all you do is reinforce the suspicion that it was part of some reckless scheme to destabilise the club. Further to this you of all people question my right to give an opinion on the club I have spent a fortune following for 50 years. What in gods name was Andy Roberts and the other more moderates on the board thinking in allowing you anywhere near the Trust Board. The way you communicate, attempting to suppress members opinions, your illogical rants and demands regarding expenditure, you are a walking PR disaster and probably one of the biggest assets the owners have. You are an insult to the legacy of what should be a proud organisation that has been reduced to a meaningless shell of what it was. This is as a direct consequence of your persona and that of a couple of others who have hijacked the Trust board to satisfying their own personal vendettas, or perhaps other more sinister motives. Just resign will you and do the membership a long overdue favour, that way you might regain a smidgen of self respect.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 06:26:37 am by Melbourne Cobbler » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #41744 on: December 07, 2023, 06:47:12 am »

I don’t want to join a pack attacking Derek which I why I wrote a gentle note suggesting it was perhaps now time to back off and conserve his undoubted passion for future positive and attainable action - sadly he responded with more of the same.

It’s frustrating he doesn’t seem to realise his ideas (not all unreasonable but usually uncosted) are never going to happen with the current owners who not only have a different (yes less ambitious) agenda but also will clearly never work with the organisation he represents.
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« Reply #41745 on: December 07, 2023, 07:03:08 am »

When was the last time the trust membership was asked what they want from the trust?
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« Reply #41746 on: December 07, 2023, 07:32:16 am »

Hi Nigel

The club has a reasonable turnover that covers everything you mention above. DC ran the club for the last few years or more at break-even and that time feels little different to now, especially when you factor in the increase in turnover

There are a few well run clubs with less turnover and bigger grounds than us that turn a profit / breakeven.

Exeter, owned by it's supporters have managed to run, grow and develop their club, they just spent £3m on their training ground, and their accounts look 100 times better than ours.

Exeter and Hearts both have a scheme when fans pay extra each month for "membership"

Most of the German league runs on 50+1, it could be done here too.

I think there is a lot of goodwill around and I am confident that there are local businesses, some big, some small that would really buy into developing our club. There are opportunities for increased sponsorship etc

I would not be against investors and dare i say speculators getting involved but there has to be plans, short, medium and long term.

Yes we could keep wishing and waiting and wishing and waiting, but it aint happened in my life time and I don't hold out much hope for it changing going forward.

Re the land / DB, is it really that bad a deal for them?  if you believe what KT has said, they will finish the East stand, at a cost according to them of £6m. That £6m is going to give them almost zero return, other than put the sale price of the football club up slightly and make it easier to sell (otherwise who is going to buy the club without the East stand completed and all the backlash and fall out that will follow that situation)

 





I would be the first advocate of a more fan involved structure in league football. Unfortunately, there is no appetite for within the current structure.

I honestly think it is way past the time where we drop Exeter as a shining example. The combination of huge transfer fee input. Assistance from the University and the luxury of literally hundreds of volunteers, offers a very unique model. That example is poles away from a level playing field. Not only comparative to us. But comparative to virtually every English league club.

In terms of volunteers and encouraging investment from the support. Well, surely this is exactly where the Trust should be at the forefront. I have not seen one single obvious representation, from one Trust board member at a game since well before COVID. The current Trust set up, is one of a political arm to the support. A role that was neither asked for, or indeed needed. I can only go back to my posts dating back for several years now. You will always attract more bees with honey, than you will with vinegar. Rather than concentrating on the shortcomings of the club. And there are some. Concentrate on starting the movement and action you want from your end of the deal. There is nothing stopping the Trust dipping it's toe in the water and starting to action some of the things it wants.
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« Reply #41747 on: December 07, 2023, 10:23:21 am »

The Popular Front For The Liberation Of Sixfields ✊🏻
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« Reply #41748 on: December 07, 2023, 10:32:41 am »

There is nothing stopping the Trust dipping it's toe in the water and starting to action some of the things it wants.

....now there's a challenge

Come on Derek - use your energy and passion to push forward something both possible and achievable - baby steps if necessary because the reality is you were never playing with the big boys. Little projects can definitely yield results & you would certainly get my support.
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« Reply #41749 on: December 07, 2023, 10:36:25 am »

Like Peter, I don't want this to be a "let's have a dig at Derek" post but when you look at his list of suggestions as to how he would take the club forward it's all very frustrating.

There's very little in what he's said that I disagree with but it's all very idealistic and while it has noble intent, it's not really going to happen in the real world. There are loads of "I thinks", "I don't thinks" and "I don't knows" scattered around so it's almost a mission statement rather than a costed strategy that can be taken seriously.

I don't believe there's an appetite there for people to plough in extra money without getting anything in return. I may be wrong, but our fans seem quite price sensitive to things in general. Maybe ask the question of the supporters to find out?

And let's not forget that a part of how Cardoza was breaking even, certainly towards the end, was by not paying the bills!

I get the feeling that Derek's view is a parroting of the overall Trust board view though (yeah, yeah,  personal opinion vs Trust opinion and all that but I'm referring to a feeling formed over a significant time period by reading a multitude of posts from individuals in or associated with the Trust board. t
The sum of a board's parts is unlikely to differ too much from the views of its component members).

I think they have an overly idealised view of how things should be and see the owners as a barrier to bringing that about, and their primary focus has been on removing that obstacle. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a plan that they can articulate on what comes next to bring about their vision,  just a Mr Micawber like view that something will come up once the owners have gone

Maybe I'm wrong and they have a full contingency plan in place but if so why not communicate that?  They can't or won't even articulate how the box park or lorry park would have worked and how the proceeds would have assisted the club,  nor are they willing or able to explain how the partnership they had lined up with Cildara would have helped anyone other than Cildara.

If you really want to instigate change then you need to take people on the journey with you. Sitting in a back room, plotting and scheming and insinuating other people are either stupid, naive or both for not agreeing with you while refusing to disclose what you are doing is never going to bring people on board.

And that's why it's frustrating. I think you have a group of people there who started out with the best intentions but have instead become myopic in their vision and entrenched in their position.

It's a bit like watching the Just Stop Oil protesters carrying on; they have a very valid concern but the way they go about drawing attention to it does nothing but piss people off!

Having thus alienated the audience they are trying to reach, you have to think it's time for a wholesale change.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 10:39:37 am by BackOfTheNet » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #41750 on: December 07, 2023, 10:42:28 am »

I am all for forward thinking.
I personally don't see there being the appetite for thousands of fans to put extra money in over 10, 20, 30 years. I don't feel the passion of support to fund an 'NTFC legacy' for their kids/grand kids.

If it is something that is felt passionately about, it needs to come from the Supporters Trust. I'm sure thousands would happily part with extra money to their account.  Tongue

I'd start by speaking to the owners (with cap in hand) and seeing what is required in order to re-establish a constructive dialogue with them. If people love the club as much as we are led to believe, I am sure they would do whatever is necessary for the greater good of our future.
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« Reply #41751 on: December 07, 2023, 10:43:40 am »

Any update on Tony Mahoney's North Stand?
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« Reply #41752 on: December 07, 2023, 10:53:34 am »

Having read the majority of this tread, I have come to the conclusion we all want the same thing, a bigger 12k capacity stadium that will enable us to generate revenue that will allow us to grow and become a L1 club at the very minimum with occasional forays into the Championship.
The problem is how we as fans can help to get us there, for me a council owned stadium is not the answer even on a long lease.
We need to acquire the stadium for the club, as Swindon have, so that improvements are the club’s asset.
Trying to bash the current owners is pointless and is counterproductive at best, the Trust need to be making a plan for when KT and DB decide to sell, maybe someone to head it up that is a little bit less confrontational.
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« Reply #41753 on: December 07, 2023, 10:59:20 am »

Let’s not beat around the bush, unless the Trust give Derek and “the advisor” the bullet entirely too many members and supporters will never back a Trust initiative again. If you don’t believe me ask a few members their thoughts, everything you need to know is right there. The Board either stand by their colleagues and remain dead and buried, or completely reinvent themselves and try and rebuild their reputation and credibility. Every time I talk to any members regarding the Trust the number one topic is  the conduct of certain individuals on social media and their suitability for the role they have engineered for themselves. I understand certain people may not like it but don’t shoot the messenger, that’s just the way it is.
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« Reply #41754 on: December 07, 2023, 11:00:36 am »

Having read the majority of this tread, I have come to the conclusion we all want the same thing, a bigger 12k capacity stadium that will enable us to generate revenue that will allow us to grow and become a L1 club at the very minimum with occasional forays into the Championship.
The problem is how we as fans can help to get us there, for me a council owned stadium is not the answer even on a long lease.
We need to acquire the stadium for the club, as Swindon have, so that improvements are the club’s asset.
Trying to bash the current owners is pointless and is counterproductive at best, the Trust need to be making a plan for when KT and DB decide to sell, maybe someone to head it up that is a little bit less confrontational.

Probably the best post you have ever written.
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« Reply #41755 on: December 07, 2023, 11:17:57 am »

Any update on Tony Mahoney's North Stand?


When Thai Tony comes back with his plans I’m sure it will provide a marker for any fan involved appetite regarding the current status of the club.
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« Reply #41756 on: December 07, 2023, 11:29:15 am »

Having read the majority of this tread, I have come to the conclusion we all want the same thing, a bigger 12k capacity stadium that will enable us to generate revenue that will allow us to grow and become a L1 club at the very minimum with occasional forays into the Championship.
The problem is how we as fans can help to get us there, for me a council owned stadium is not the answer even on a long lease.
We need to acquire the stadium for the club, as Swindon have, so that improvements are the club’s asset.
Trying to bash the current owners is pointless and is counterproductive at best, the Trust need to be making a plan for when KT and DB decide to sell, maybe someone to head it up that is a little bit less confrontational.


Agreed...
Without the ground as an asset, the club has very little prospect of improvement unless a multi multi millionaire, who is prepared to fund without return, comes on board.
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« Reply #41757 on: December 07, 2023, 11:31:02 am »

Let’s not beat around the bush, unless the Trust give Derek and “the advisor” the bullet entirely too many members and supporters will never back a Trust initiative again. If you don’t believe me ask a few members their thoughts, everything you need to know is right there. The Board either stand by their colleagues and remain dead and buried, or completely reinvent themselves and try and rebuild their reputation and credibility. Every time I talk to any members regarding the Trust the number one topic is  the conduct of certain individuals on social media and their suitability for the role they have engineered for themselves. I understand certain people may not like it but don’t shoot the messenger, that’s just the way it is.

Hermes has spoken... Wink
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“They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
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The Hotelend Grand National Sweepstake Champion 2009
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« Reply #41758 on: December 07, 2023, 11:37:44 am »

Having read the majority of this tread, I have come to the conclusion we all want the same thing, a bigger 12k capacity stadium that will enable us to generate revenue that will allow us to grow and become a L1 club at the very minimum with occasional forays into the Championship.
The problem is how we as fans can help to get us there, for me a council owned stadium is not the answer even on a long lease.
We need to acquire the stadium for the club, as Swindon have, so that improvements are the club’s asset.
Trying to bash the current owners is pointless and is counterproductive at best, the Trust need to be making a plan for when KT and DB decide to sell, maybe someone to head it up that is a little bit less confrontational.

Someone's spiked his Buckie  Wink
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« Reply #41759 on: December 07, 2023, 11:38:57 am »

Hermes has spoken... Wink
He has and I'm in complete concordance with him, a reset is needed
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