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Disappearing Punters?

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EssTeeFree
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« Reply #1440 on: January 10, 2018, 13:33:11 pm »

We would continue fleecing locals who decides on match days they would like to watch their local club and be hit with £24 to sit in an amature looking ground, never to rrturn. £20 in a more professional  atmospheric ground and they will be back, regularly.
Having strict admission criteria for our bigger games caused by low capacity  that keep gates down because people like to turn up when they can not being forced to always buy in advance or subjected to a data base only entry.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the development (or otherwise) argument, the bit quoted above would still happen even if we had a 20,000 seat stadium. Bigger games would be made all ticket / database only to prevent away fans rocking up and paying on the day to get into home areas.

I'm aware this happens now in some games (Sheff Utd anyone?) but that doesn't mean the club still wouldn't put measure is in place, even if the hypothetical 20,000 stadium was only getting ~5,000 a week
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« Reply #1441 on: January 10, 2018, 13:37:21 pm »

New signing Dean Bowditch says that playing his football in the ‘fantastic’ atmosphere at Sixfields was a key factor in him signing for the Cobblers. New signing Dean Bowditch says that playing his football in the ‘fantastic’ atmosphere at Sixfields was a key factor in him signing for the Cobblers. when you have such a big stadium, and not the amount of fans that you want, then sometimes you can get a little lost.Then you come to places like Sixfields, especially when I have been with the Dons, the atmosphere has been fantastic, and that was definitely one of the reasons I came here.

As I have said previously, I would love a better stadium with better corporate facilities but we don't have the owners who can give us that over night. Just fitting some corporate boxes into the shell will lead to increased revenue that can then be used to further invest and build up in a sustainable, necessary way.
Its a shame the atmospheric Sixfields didn't improve Bowditchs performances? Maybe he wasn't being 100% truthful 😂
The only reason I can think why Thomas believes that having boxes only is that he can claim they cost £4m after getting control of the vast amount leasehold up for grabs , which would give an impression of VFM, and then not bother his arse with the football clubs future??
Hopefully not that,  but the only alternative I can think of is he has a very low oppinion of what our football club could achieve if all the positives going for it were properly managed, which is a damn sight more than his promised boxes subject possibly  to nbc bending over.
Im still in the dark as to what is or not happening, but I would suspect one or two of the guess work and supposition by folk on here may have got close to the target forcing a rethink?
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« Reply #1442 on: January 11, 2018, 00:04:27 am »

[1]Is this a case against ntfc having a better ground and match day facilities?
[2]Why have you mentioned the little town of Darlington and there whopping great white elephant 25000 seater stadium ?
No one here asks for or wants that.
[3]Good teams and management can be built at most places but only those with the infrastructure in place that can sustain momentum retain their squads or buy and sell profitably.
[4] we could easily raise funds using several tried and tested ways using future incomes that would be paid back by the rise in match day / 365 day revenues. The Chinese or Kelvin need not mither the council...
Continual delays and inactivity  will harm our club.

1. No.
2. Someone here was suggesting that we borrow and borrow again to spend and spend again on commercial facilities. I was trying to point out that this carries a great deal of risk and spending on facilities that don't get used does not work. Seats aren't the only possible white elephant. Sensible spending is constructive. Spending for spending's sake is a recipe for disaster.
3. Why? If most places can build good teams and management, why can't most places buy and sell profitably?
4. Fine. But don't they need to pursue the council for permission first? You seem to think that they can just do whatever they like, whenever they like.
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« Reply #1443 on: January 11, 2018, 01:19:51 am »

[1] The coaches, managers, scouts you all mention want paying and as in every sphere of life the best paid are usually the best at their jobs. This is why the moment we have any talent at the club the slightest opportunity comes along, whoosh, their off. So where is this money to come from to pay these people or are you happy with league two?

[2] The only way to make profit is by risk ...and I do take your point that not everything works out fine but that's life.

[3] Without genuine investment in the stadium or the grounds...


1. I did love that Championship winning season, when we did (just!) pay the coaching staff and scouts. In fact we're still paying coaches and scouts in L1, and I'll bet you we pay the current manager more than the successful one. I'm not happy with L2, but then we aren't in L2 either. Am I happy with L1? Yes. Perhaps a bash at the Championship every now and again would be nice, but nothing more thanks. I'm a different kind of supporter to you. I go to support them. I mean actually cheer them on. I enjoy it. Sometimes I even get stick for clapping them off after a terrible display and get branded a 'happy clapper'. Im not happy, I'm absolutely blimmin distraught, but if I know they tried their woeful best for my club, I'll appreciate it anyway. I enjoy supporting them at a sh1t hole park pitch in pre-season with no atmosphere, in freezing winds, or away at Anfield. Yes, I'd like to be proud of our stadium, but to me, I mostly just want a local league team to support. I'll tell you something, nobody likes the dark depressing days of clinging to L2 survival or being on the verge of nothingness, but they don't half make the good times even sweeter! I support a "big" club too. I watch them on tv and go to the odd game. I supported them before I supported the Cobbs. But I only have a season ticket at Sixfields. It's not as good a stadium as my other team, but it doesn't matter. The atmosphere isn't close to a par either. But I go to support my local team regardless, and do you know what, I enjoy it just as much, probably more. It actually would give me a difficult conflict if interests if NTFC got too high in the pyramid! Lots of fans are like me. Supporters like you, who would go to away games and line the coffers of other clubs, but not attend Sixfields to cheer your team on as you don't like the stadium, are quite different from me. That's not to say one is better than the other. We all want the best for our team and can enjoy the game in different ways.

2. Woah. Firstly, no it's not the only way. Where on Earth do you get an idea like that? I'll grant you that high risk can bring high reward. But it can also bring the end. When you admit that not everything works out, do you realise that we have 120 years of history at stake? This is not a rich guy losing his Ferrari or a limited company that liquidates and reforms where it left off. This is an institution for the people of Northampton and beyond. It cannot be allowed to die. (It might not bother you if you can't go to support anyway and you can still log on here and debate the good old days and pick apart where it went wrong.) I want to progress steadily, not lump it all on black and if we liquidate into nothingness then oh well. I'm really not risk averse, especially with other people's money, but (like the home analogy again) losing your home for your family is too much to contemplate losing. Some things you can't **** on. You must make sensible progressive business decisions.

3. We all agree. It's your sh1t or bust approach that I disagree with I'm afraid. It's only my opinion, but it counts as much as yours.
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« Reply #1444 on: January 11, 2018, 08:03:10 am »

Owl, can I firstly thank you for your engaging reply, I also apologise if my manner comes along a little brusque on occasions, but that's the way I am so why hide it here?

We are brothers in arms, lifelong supporters, although unlike yourself I only have the one heart and I could never get in bed with anyone else other than my beloved Cobblers. Until I moved to sunnier shores through my work some time ago now I'd often attend 46 plus games a season and this all started in 1981. At the impressionable age of 12, a new light in my life arrived on visiting the County Ground for the first time, a night game, although I think that may have been the floodlights! Either way, I've stood proudly amongst my fellow supporters in the dark days and the few amazing times we've had. I've lost my bits stood in freezing North sea gales in Hartlepool on a Tuesday, cried tears against Crewe when seeing the team lift that trophy in front of an electric Hotel End, the Shrewsburys, Maidstones and Torquays. Even flying back just for Dagenham, he's one of our own and of course John Frain.

Though all the furor on here we have a simple equation right now and I hope amongst hopes that KT is trying to deliver something tangible for the clubs future. Either we rely on a sugar daddy to prop up the club, to whom we will incur debt, or the stadium is used to deliver more cash towards the football, managers and players we want and incur less debt to sustain a similar level. Both have costs and debt although the debt for development has so many options, flexibility and dimensions compared to owing a bastard such as Cardoza.

I'm afraid I will have to disagree to a fraction, risk is involved in everything we do, however it's obvious that risk can be offset or limited. I've spent a lifetime working on seemingly risky developments, turning often unwanted areas into thriving, welcoming and vibrant places to live. I'm just a tiny cog but have been fortunate to have worked with some of the finest architects in the world, possibly where I get the language from!

The East stand as we know it, and obviously depending on the legal minefield, has many options. Carefully, stage by stage, certainly not shit and bust as you allude to, it could become extremely profitable, add a potential hotel or apartments squeezed into a corner or corners, the club could be able to sustain a level above it does today. Maybe only marginally but most importantly without the feast and famine of relying on individuals. Careful and imaginative design can create a spark and can be promoted, not to your average fan, but to a wealth of investors, companies and individuals.

Of course this all hinges on the current owners to break the vicious cycle and just as we debate the teams selection and management, there's fuck all we can do!

Maybe off topic but then I'm a genuine disappearing punter.

Evers, it's not a crusade, you said exactly the same when a few started questioning Cardoza, you were wrong then, you're wrong now.

#Neverite
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« Reply #1445 on: January 11, 2018, 08:15:38 am »

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the development (or otherwise) argument, the bit quoted above would still happen even if we had a 20,000 seat stadium. Bigger games would be made all ticket / database only to prevent away fans rocking up and paying on the day to get into home areas.

I'm aware this happens now in some games (Sheff Utd anyone?) but that doesn't mean the club still wouldn't put measure is in place, even if the hypothetical 20,000 stadium was only getting ~5,000 a week
try a hypothetical 12000 ground, kelvin pulled the old over exagerated 30k nonsence to scaremonger against a ground redev..
If you suspect over 12000  will want to attend..all ticket
If you susoect 10,000 may attend.. promote it to the hilt, get in some revenues.

With just 7000 we have no choice but implement restrictions on admission several times a season even in our awful non leaguesque  ground.
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« Reply #1446 on: January 11, 2018, 08:21:23 am »

Para1) As a matter of interest can you please name the Clubs who meet this criteria - there can’t be that many?

Para 2) This appears to be misleading information;its never easy to raise and maintain funds for ReDev. If it was then somebody would be masterminding the project (perhaps you)?

As I understand it you are not an accountant or a financial ‘wizard’ but a Builders Tradesman - which is fine.
 It is unlikely you would have the qualifications to enable you to acquire the expertise necessary in financial projects. This is not a social comment but merely an observation on your comments in para 2.

You remind me of the Roman Politician who finished every speech with the tag ‘delenda est carthago’.That is the inevitable ref to KT etc directly or otherwise.


Answer to para 1 Peterborough and 40 other clubs, But not Northampton.
Answer to para 2. Peterborough and 40 other clubs. But not Northampton.
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« Reply #1447 on: January 11, 2018, 08:55:46 am »

Answer to para 1 Peterborough and 40 other clubs, But not Northampton.
Answer to para 2. Peterborough and 40 other clubs. But not Northampton.
Hospitality is much better at Sixfields than it is as Peterborough, and Luton (the only 3 I have been to). I must admit I used to think London Road was a better stadium as I like the older stadia, especially with the old low roof, but since the redevelopment the ground is crap and sole less.

The redevelopment of London Road was paid for by a government grant and local council funds. I'm pretty sure we tried that already. Nothing to do with the current owner. Except the fact he threatened to leave the stadium that they don't own or have any control over
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« Reply #1448 on: January 11, 2018, 10:36:54 am »

Owl, can I firstly thank you for your engaging reply, I also apologise if my manner comes along a little brusque on occasions, ...

Evers, it's not a crusade, you said exactly the same when a few started questioning Cardoza, you were wrong then, you're wrong now.

#Neverite

I said Beds crusade, you are implying it’s yours! In common with many on here I sat on the fence with DC. I am always reticent to join in with those who resort to abusive language however just their cause.  I think your approach to the ReDev situation is wrong particularly when laced with coarse/abusive comments. Even now you failed to convince Owl of your proposals! One thing Beds does is not engage in abusive language inspite of extreme  provocation. Perhaps you can learn from him? Owl comes across as a genuine supporter and in my opinion you don’t . The architects I have met appear to be reasonable people with enlightened debating skills. All the best for the New Year.
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« Reply #1449 on: January 11, 2018, 10:48:37 am »

Answer to para 1 Peterborough and 40 other clubs, But not Northampton.
Answer to para 2. Peterborough and 40 other clubs. But not Northampton.

You are a avoiding the two queries put to you.
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« Reply #1450 on: January 11, 2018, 11:30:16 am »

try a hypothetical 12000 ground, kelvin pulled the old over exagerated 30k nonsence to scaremonger against a ground redev..
If you suspect over 12000  will want to attend..all ticket
If you susoect 10,000 may attend.. promote it to the hilt, get in some revenues.

With just 7000 we have no choice but implement restrictions on admission several times a season even in our awful non leaguesque  ground.

Change the 20,000 in my post to 12,000 and nothing changes. If we play 'boro in a 12,000 seat stadium and 8,000 want to go it will still be all ticket. If we are struggling in the league and another team can clinch promotion on our patch, even if only 4,000 of our fans are interested it will still be made all ticket to try and stop away fans flooding the home ends (effective or otherwise).

As I said I'm not wading into the redevelopment argument but simply saying a larger ground will mean more pay on the day punters is misguided, in my opinion.
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« Reply #1451 on: January 11, 2018, 12:57:38 pm »

Change the 20,000 in my post to 12,000 and nothing changes. If we play 'boro in a 12,000 seat stadium and 8,000 want to go it will still be all ticket. If we are struggling in the league and another team can clinch promotion on our patch, even if only 4,000 of our fans are interested it will still be made all ticket to try and stop away fans flooding the home ends (effective or otherwise).

As I said I'm not wading into the redevelopment argument but simply saying a larger ground will mean more pay on the day punters is misguided, in my opinion.
I reiterate my last reply, a lot less admission restrictions due to some spare capacity played out with a more professional atmospheric setting will see 2 or 3000 more regularly turning up to watch..
No bad thing eh?
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« Reply #1452 on: January 11, 2018, 13:50:09 pm »

I reiterate my last reply, a lot less admission restrictions due to some spare capacity played out with a more professional atmospheric setting will see 2 or 3000 more regularly turning up to watch..
No bad thing eh?


You keep going on about a more professional atmospheric setting, I can say with as much certainty to you that increasing the capacity will not see between 2 and 3 k more fans turning up on that basis alone.

You may despise Sixfields with a passion but it is a bang average ground.

Extending the ground of 80% of the grounds in league one and two would have a minimal impact on the attendances, just like Sixfields.

There are so many examples of clubs having a lot of 'spare' capacity.

Doncaster on boxing day was roughly 50% full, where were all the extrra fans because they had space?
The Ricoh is nearly 'empty' every match.
Carlisle, it may be a dump but it's atmospheric, (in a non modern way) the same applies for Posh.
MK - well what can we say, fantastic stadium, amazing offers constantly to the locals and yet a ground that is probably two thirds empty most games.

A better ground would be great, but it certainly wouldn't result in your 'claims'
 

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« Reply #1453 on: January 11, 2018, 14:46:32 pm »

You keep going on about a more professional atmospheric setting, I can say with as much certainty to you that increasing the capacity will not see between 2 and 3 k more fans turning up on that basis alone.

You may despise Sixfields with a passion but it is a bang average ground.

Extending the ground of 80% of the grounds in league one and two would have a minimal impact on the attendances, just like Sixfields.

There are so many examples of clubs having a lot of 'spare' capacity.

Doncaster on boxing day was roughly 50% full, where were all the extrra fans because they had space?
The Ricoh is nearly 'empty' every match.
Carlisle, it may be a dump but it's atmospheric, (in a non modern way) the same applies for Posh.
MK - well what can we say, fantastic stadium, amazing offers constantly to the locals and yet a ground that is probably two thirds empty most games.

A better ground would be great, but it certainly wouldn't result in your 'claims'
 

T
Springfield park 1996 Wigan 1 cobblers 1 att 1800. (250 away)

Would our catchment be more inclined to attend a proper league stadium?

Would enhanced match day atmosphere be a draw for our younger fans to attend more regularly?

Better players from more income = more fans..
You cant Make a case a against improved ground.
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« Reply #1454 on: January 11, 2018, 15:09:17 pm »

Springfield park 1996 Wigan 1 cobblers 1 att 1800. (250 away)

Would our catchment be more inclined to attend a proper league stadium?

Would enhanced match day atmosphere be a draw for our younger fans to attend more regularly?

Better players from more income = more fans..
You cant Make a case a against improved ground.

Which reinforces one of my previous points,

The novelty of a new ground bumps the crowds up. just like our move to Sixfields did, if my memory is correct our crowds probably doubled. An increased capacity at an existing ground does not increase it in the same way.

Out of interest, how much money did Dave Whelan pump into Wigan? How many times do you think they have sold out despite having lots available?
Add to that the fact they had over 50% empty seats in their top of the table clash recently against Shrewsbury, doesn't exactly make it atmospheric does it?
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« Reply #1455 on: January 11, 2018, 15:11:36 pm »

Springfield park 1996 Wigan 1 cobblers 1 att 1800. (250 away)

You cant Make a case a against improved ground.

Highfield Road, Coventry. 1967. Division 2. Att. 51,455. Coventry City v Wolverhampton Wanderers. They don't get anything like that at the Ricoh. They don't even have the capacity.

We can all pull a random stat to "prove" a case.

I do, however, understand that we need a better stadium.
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« Reply #1456 on: January 11, 2018, 16:14:59 pm »

FFS - we all would love a better ground but put simply it is a winning and entertaining side brings in extra punters - sure you want the capacity to house them but this is a medium rather than a short term need.

Players with the entertainment value of Holmes and Pereira will add to the gate - not a thousand extra seats & when I see successive sell outs I will join the expansion now rants.
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« Reply #1457 on: January 11, 2018, 18:19:10 pm »

FFS - we all would love a better ground but put simply it is a winning and entertaining side brings in extra punters - sure you want the capacity to house them but this is a medium rather than a short term need.

Players with the entertainment value of Holmes and Pereira will add to the gate - not a thousand extra seats & when I see successive sell outs I will join the expansion now rants.
Holmes has gone, we couldn't retain his services or get a fair sell price because we are known as a hand to mouth  non progressive club with non league facilities.
Players only come here for a last meal ticket or to resurrect a faltering career, ie pereira, if he was ours to sell, do you think when tears up league 1 he wont be subjected to head turning interest from switched on clubs who have their acts together? Bidding will start at 60 grand but after negotiations an undisclosed fee of 90k with 10% sell on will be agreed this is what we've become due to our inability to grow our club.
Are we the only league 1 side never to have sold a player for £1m despite having several go onto play premiership football!
Peterborough have just turned down a £4m offer for a former Northampton school boy,
Had he played for us he wouldve gone months ago for undisclosed amount of shirt buttons, not because we dont know the value of players but other clubs know we cant hold out.
It all comes down to building up the club, foundations first, supporters base and corperate  interest will soon follow then the better players will be attracted and we will find ourselves starting the bidding at a £m plus.
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« Reply #1458 on: January 11, 2018, 18:59:07 pm »

I and two family members were season ticket holders for over 30 years, but stopped being so 3 years ago, for various reasons. We rarely go nowadays because when we do get the opportunity there are never 3 seats together in the West Stand and rarely 2 together apart from the very front or end rows. Beds is correct, a bigger stadium would increase the number of good seats available for non-season ticket holders and provide the opportunity for all of us to bring along friends, relatives, colleagues and customers when required.
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« Reply #1459 on: January 11, 2018, 19:08:42 pm »

Holmes has gone, we couldn't retain his services or get a fair sell price because we are known as a hand to mouth  non progressive club with non league facilities.
Players only come here for a last meal ticket or to resurrect a faltering career, ie pereira, if he was ours to sell, do you think when tears up league 1 he wont be subjected to head turning interest from switched on clubs who have their acts together? Bidding will start at 60 grand but after negotiations an undisclosed fee of 90k with 10% sell on will be agreed this is what we've become due to our inability to grow our club.
Are we the only league 1 side never to have sold a player for £1m despite having several go onto play premiership football!
Peterborough have just turned down a £4m offer for a former Northampton school boy,
Had he played for us he wouldve gone months ago for undisclosed amount of shirt buttons, not because we dont know the value of players but other clubs know we cant hold out.
It all comes down to building up the club, foundations first, supporters base and corperate  interest will soon follow then the better players will be attracted and we will find ourselves starting the bidding at a £m plus.


You have a talent for half truths at best - for example Ricky Holmes,you omit any fact which might dilute the effectiveness of your claim. You even fail to mention that RH put in a transfer request. Your take on RH is so misleading is that it equates to 'false information'. Inaccurate comments by you to further your claims on the Clubs status is harmful; harms the Clubs image and more to the point it alienates those whom you wish to influence.
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