The Hotel End

The Hotel End => Cobblers Corner => Topic started by: Ragdoll Cobbler on May 01, 2021, 19:10:28 pm



Title: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Ragdoll Cobbler on May 01, 2021, 19:10:28 pm
So rather than aligning their contracts to the then managers one (ie if he leaves/gets sacked so do they), we're stuck with head of recruitment Simon Tracey & goalkeeping coach Dan Watson for another season!

https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/20202/july/back_room_staff/ (https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/20202/july/back_room_staff/)

Surely, whoever becomes the permanent manager, will want to bring his own backroom team in...

The club really don't do themselves any favours  ::)


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Winslow Lee on May 01, 2021, 19:41:13 pm
So rather than aligning their contracts to the then managers one (ie if he leaves/gets sacked so do they), we're stuck with head of recruitment Simon Tracey & goalkeeping coach Dan Watson for another season!

https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/20202/july/back_room_staff/ (https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/20202/july/back_room_staff/)

Surely, whoever becomes the permanent manager, will want to bring his own backroom team in...

The club really don't do themselves any favours  ::)

I donít get it? If a new manager wants to bring in his own people we can let the current staff go and pay them off, Iím not sure how having something in place where when the manager goes they go to helps? they would still have to be paid off. Am I missing something?.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Ragdoll Cobbler on May 01, 2021, 19:48:22 pm
I donít get it? If a new manager wants to bring in his own people we can let the current staff go and pay them off, Iím not sure how having something in place where when the manager goes they go to helps? they would still have to be paid off. Am I missing something?.

No, many clubs put clauses in, to prevent pay offs if manager failings...I know Peterborough do & they ain't doing too bad!


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Irchy cob on May 01, 2021, 19:55:28 pm
I think the crux is - and we will never categorically know the answer to this despite us all being pretty much certain - what sort of budget were Tracey and KC having to play with in terms of recruitment? By the looks of it we were shopping at Aldi rather than Waitrose and it then comes down to making the most with what youíve got and getting lucky with some punts. In my opinion the measure of how good a manager/head coach is in whether or not he is able to get the most out of his squad and by this token both KC and JB failed. Make no mistake, if KT goes with Brady the major reason will be that it is the cheap option.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Boot and shoe on May 01, 2021, 19:55:51 pm
i would like to hear what Simon Tracey has to say about things .
He is getting a lot of attention and rightly so but i wonder what brief he was working to and who we were not prepared to pay for .
I think the real finger needs pointing at the board .
We simply have not prepared for division 1 and i think the club has been kicked into the long grass by the owners .


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Winslow Lee on May 01, 2021, 20:07:54 pm
I think the crux is - and we will never categorically know the answer to this despite us all being pretty much certain - what sort of budget were Tracey and KC having to play with in terms of recruitment? By the looks of it we were shopping at Aldi rather than Waitrose and it then comes down to making the most with what youíve got and getting lucky with some punts. In my opinion the measure of how good a manager/head coach is in whether or not he is able to get the most out of his squad and by this token both KC and JB failed. Make no mistake, if KT goes with Brady the major reason will be that it is the cheap option.

Iím still not convinced by the budget argument, just because the players we signed have been awful people assume the budget isnít competitive to staying in the league. I still feel our budget and you can add Swindon & Bristol Rovers (bottom 2 teams) to that too are higher than Accrington, Rochdale, Wimbledon & Crewe, or at worst only minimal difference that any manager had a reasonable chance to stay up.
Letís not forget when KC got Miller and Edmondson on loan he said how delighted he was at picking up 2 of his main targets.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: SadOldGit on May 01, 2021, 20:10:30 pm
I think the crux is - and we will never categorically know the answer to this despite us all being pretty much certain - what sort of budget were Tracey and KC having to play with in terms of recruitment? By the looks of it we were shopping at Aldi rather than Waitrose and it then comes down to making the most with what youíve got and getting lucky with some punts. In my opinion the measure of how good a manager/head coach is in whether or not he is able to get the most out of his squad and by this token both KC and JB failed. Make no mistake, if KT goes with Brady the major reason will be that it is the cheap option.


Jesus, I can only wish we were shopping at Aldi. This lot came from a bowl in the market square.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Teachers Pet on May 01, 2021, 20:10:37 pm
i would like to hear what Simon Tracey has to say about things .
He is getting a lot of attention and rightly so but i wonder what brief he was working to and who we were not prepared to pay for .
I think the real finger needs pointing at the board .
We simply have not prepared for division 1 and i think the club has been kicked into the long grass by the owners .

Correct. People were mostly happy with the recruitment by Tracey and KC in league 2. We were also told our number one targets weren't successful before our league 1 campaign.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Ragdoll Cobbler on May 01, 2021, 21:27:41 pm
Signing an already injured Joe Nuttall is unforgivable & he easily becomes the worst most costly loan signing we've ever made. I guarantee he's on more money than Oliver is at Gillingham...hence why Blackpool wouldn't cancel his loan!

Also, all our alledged first choice targets were signed in January!

Absolute s***ter of a season!


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Teachers Pet on May 01, 2021, 21:38:50 pm
Signing an already injured Joe Nuttall is unforgivable & he easily becomes the worst most costly loan signing we've ever made. I guarantee he's on more money than Oliver is at Gillingham...hence why Blackpool wouldn't cancel his loan!

Also, all our alledged first choice targets were signed in January!

Absolute s***ter of a season!

I'm sure we had more targets last summer than Edmondson & Miller.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on May 02, 2021, 01:10:04 am
Our wage budget for this season was £1.9-£2m..... you decide whether or not you think that was adequate.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Zen Master on May 02, 2021, 08:56:43 am
Not when the staffing costs on published accounts for 19/20 were shown as £3.9 million for the club. Iíd be pretty sure than in most instances the playing costs would form the bulk of the staffing costs.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: bungle on May 02, 2021, 09:04:40 am
A few points from my perspective:

1. We spent transfer fees on Rose, Ashley-Seal and Sowerby in a season when a lot of lower-league clubs spent zilch due to pandemic belt-tightening.

2. Budget wise, I would say that we have probably been in a 'mini-league' with Swindon, Rochdale, Wigan, AFC Wimbledon, Crewe, Accrington and Gillingham. To have finished significantly higher that those clubs would realistically have taken a dangerously risky level of outlay which would have put the club at financial risk at a time of zero gate receipts.

I would argue that the primary reason that we've finished second-bottom of this 'mini-league' is down to poor recruitment rather than budget.

3. The forward area is the best case in point. This year we've had Smith, Rose, Ashley-Seal, Nuttall, Edmondson, Miller, A. Jones and Chuks on the books, two of which cost transfer fees. Last year we had Oliver (on peanuts), Williams, Morton (unknown young loanee) and Smith. The outlay has clearly been a lot greater but we've ended up with vastly inferior quality because the scouting has been **** poor.

The thing that still staggers me is that Curle went into this season trying to play hoofball without anything resembling a proper targetman/centre forward! I suspect that the Oliver switch caught him by surprise and his plan B, Nuttall, was a panicky signing which was rushed through without due dilligence.

Gillingham and Wycombe have proven that you can get results at this level with a lower budget direct style if you have the right personnel.





Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: CJ on May 03, 2021, 09:47:34 am
People bang on about these transfer fees but had anyone got any idea how much we might have paid? What % of the players contract have they constituted?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: everbrite on May 03, 2021, 12:21:28 pm
So rather than aligning their contracts to the then managers one (ie if he leaves/gets sacked so do they), we're stuck with head of recruitment Simon Tracey & goalkeeping coach Dan Watson for another season!

https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/20202/july/back_room_staff/ (https://www.ntfc.co.uk/news/20202/july/back_room_staff/)

Surely, whoever becomes the permanent manager, will want to bring his own backroom team in...

The club really don't do themselves any favours  ::)

Can you clarify this statement please?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on May 03, 2021, 15:21:18 pm
Can you clarify this statement please?

What on Earth has confused you?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Coolcat on May 03, 2021, 15:29:57 pm
What on Earth has confused you?
What confuses me is everyone banging on about contracts, when this article goes back to July 2020!?!?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: everbrite on May 03, 2021, 19:18:38 pm
What on Earth has confused you?

So rather than aligning their contracts to the then managers one (ie if he leaves/gets sacked so do they), we're stuck with head of recruitment Simon Tracey & goalkeeping coach Dan Watson for another season!

Why does he specifically suggest "we are stuck with HR and Gk Coach" ?.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: the grumpy old man on May 03, 2021, 19:34:53 pm
We spent money on BAS, ye Gods.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: The 12th Marquis of Sixfields on May 03, 2021, 19:55:30 pm
So rather than aligning their contracts to the then managers one (ie if he leaves/gets sacked so do they), we're stuck with head of recruitment Simon Tracey & goalkeeping coach Dan Watson for another season!

Why does he specifically suggest "we are stuck with HR and Gk Coach" ?.
When Curle left these would have gone too, is what he is saying. Instead, had we appointed from outside, the new manager would have had to have used somebody elses staff for 6 months


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: everbrite on May 03, 2021, 21:23:36 pm
When Curle left these would have gone too, is what he is saying. Instead, had we appointed from outside, the new manager would have had to have used somebody elses staff for 6 months

I get that but they didnít as it was perhaps it was KT decision to keep them on; the cheap option perhaps or did Brady ask them to be kept on? Where Ragdolls argument appears confusing is whatever happens - Brady/Somebody is appointed Manager then new staff maybe appointed and current staff are paid off. Basically Ragdoll argues with himself! This is what I and some others wish to query. Of course Ragdoll presented his post in a factual manner. For instance the Nuttall situation ; I believe we simply donít know. My source suggested that because of his injury the two clubs came to an agreement who paid what. If we have a good Barrister then that would be in our favour! Otherwise it would have involved the EFL Contracts People. Whether HR/Coach deserve such good fortune is a separate question.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: SadOldGit on May 03, 2021, 21:42:58 pm
I get that but they didnít as it was perhaps it was KT decision to keep them on; the cheap option perhaps or did Brady ask them to be kept on? Where Ragdolls argument appears confusing is whatever happens - Brady/Somebody is appointed Manager then new staff maybe appointed and current staff are paid off. Basically Ragdoll argues with himself! This is what I and some others wish to query. Of course Ragdoll presented his post in a factual manner. For instance the Nuttall situation ; I believe we simply donít know. My source suggested that because of his injury the two clubs came to an agreement who paid what. If we have a good Barrister then that would be in our favour! Otherwise it would have involved the EFL Contracts People. Whether HR/Coach deserve such good fortune is a separate question.

Sometimes old fella it is just best to accept your shortcomings and take a bath, maybe with some salts. See if the old lady will scrub your back and be grateful that you are still knocking back the odd sherbert. You wouldn't want to look foolish now would you? Now, what team did you say you supported?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on May 03, 2021, 22:00:04 pm
Given what happened last season, when the inevitable second wave of Covid hit it was reasonable to assume the season would have been suspended and probably cancelled? The future was so uncertain that would have dominated most clubs (and indeed any businesses) financial planning. This was certainly the case from our perspective. Obviously certain assumptions didnít materialise but I am loath to be overly critical of individuals who called it wrong? The stress and turmoil the situation caused cannot be overstated, and it is difficult to convey to people just what it was like from a business sense.

Iíve touched on this with others recently, but what annoys me is that we seemingly played the sensible and cautious route financially. Other clubs were apparently far more reckless and by definition competitive as a result? Therefore if this was the case, when the bailout materialised they were handed a significant advantage for their recklessness, and as a result we end up relegated. It all seemed really unfair to me, unless Iím just twisting things to appease myself?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: everbrite on May 03, 2021, 22:06:39 pm
Iím still not convinced by the budget argument, just because the players we signed have been awful people assume the budget isnít competitive to staying in the league. I still feel our budget and you can add Swindon & Bristol Rovers (bottom 2 teams) to that too are higher than Accrington, Rochdale, Wimbledon & Crewe, or at worst only minimal difference that any manager had a reasonable chance to stay up.
Letís not forget when KC got Miller and Edmondson on loahe said how delighted he was at picking up 2 of his main targets.

I think that introducing the Budget simply confuses the strategy proposed by Ragdoll! Whether NTFC appoint coaches independently outside and a new manager is appointed the new manager might well want their own staff purely on loyalty basis. In any case do we know who appointed the current HR/Keeper Coach? Might be interesting  8)


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: everbrite on May 03, 2021, 22:41:47 pm
Sometimes old fella it is just best to accept your shortcomings and take a bath, maybe with some salts. See if the old lady will scrub your back and be grateful that you are still knocking back the odd sherbert. You wouldn't want to look foolish now would you? Now, what team did you say you supported?

Ok Dad


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: BackOfTheNet on May 05, 2021, 12:03:55 pm
Simon Tracey has left the building.

Could this be paving the way for an another announcement...?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Zen Master on May 05, 2021, 12:35:46 pm
Recruitment has been poor this year but what we donít know is the details and circumstances he has was working under. Hereís some buttons and belly button fluff now go out and sign world beating players that no one else with a competitive budget wants. While youíre at it howís your turd polishing ability?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Coolcat on May 05, 2021, 14:10:52 pm
So to summarize the futility of this thread;
OP posts an article from nearly a year ago, bemoaning why recruitment kept on (they haven't been) and should go with the manager as a package.
Another twenty posts more or less saying the same, ignoring the fact the article was from July 2020.
Simon Tracey has (as could be expected) left the building!


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Gonzales on May 05, 2021, 14:53:10 pm
I think deep down Curle knew the squad would be crap this season hence why he kept going on about good housekeeping as deflection, and many on here ended up seeing through that pretty quickly.

Now I donít know if the club thought there would be loads of desperate players out there so we could get some players whoíd be otherwise out of our price range but that clearly never happened.

I assume Curle had final say over signings so I canít fully blame Tracey but itís almost like the scouting team never adjusted their expectations of players and continued to sign L2 quality players thinking thatíd be acceptable. Was anyone we signed in the summer actually an improvement on what we had in the position last season? The club get a pass for Goode as 7 figures wouldíve been ridiculous to turn down. But Horsfall and Bolger (we paid a small fee for him too didnít we?) were obviously worse than any of our core back 3 last season - whom formed a solid base for us to build off. Others have already mentioned the slew of forwards brought in who failed to fill the void left by either Oliver or Morton.

Itís clear that good players are available Ďwithin our budgetí because we had some of them already. Can almost be certain that last seasonís league two squad wouldíve finished above this seasonís squad.

So yeah the recruitment needs an overhaul. You see other clubs sell a good find to a higher league club, then they replace them with another one and do it again. The Posh did it a number of times with strikers over the last 10-15 years.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Clarity on May 05, 2021, 15:40:30 pm
The club will be implementing a Ďrecruitment committeeí made up of first team manager, Head of Academy (Sammo), Graham Carr, Head of Recruitment (To be appointed), James Whiting and Kelvin Thomas #ntfc

The focus on the committee will be on a particular style of player which will fit a new club philosophy. A playing style identifiable with the first team down to the academy. Statistics will also play a more important role

£75,000 is being spent on upgrading the pitches at Moulton which will become the permanent training base. A decision will be made and announced in the next week on the next manager to give the club as much time as possible over the summer to implement the structure #n


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Mathius on May 05, 2021, 16:18:12 pm
Interesting that KT mentions disconnect between academy and first team. I've been saying this for some time. The academy/ youth team are trained to play good football. The formation is consistent through the age groups. There is no point having a first-team manager that plays direct like KC. This would make JB a good choice because he would have the same formation/ style of play. If not him, someone with same principles. This is a step in the right direction but should have been made some years ago. Other issues exist within the structure but hopefully these will also be addressed.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Boot and shoe on May 05, 2021, 16:23:42 pm
Interesting that KT mentions disconnect between academy and first team. I've been saying this for some time. The academy/ youth team are trained to play good football. The formation is consistent through the age groups. There is no point having a first-team manager that plays direct like KC. This would make JB a good choice because he would have the same formation/ style of play. If not him, someone with same principles. This is a step in the right direction but should have been made some years ago. Other issues exist within the structure but hopefully these will also be addressed.
i too have been saying this for a long time .
There was no policy to integrate the youth set up to the first team whatsoever .
This is a good move overall as is involving graham carr on a formal basis - although he has already been involved more than people may realise i think.
The big question is the next appointment of course


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Mathius on May 05, 2021, 16:37:21 pm
Yes, b & S. The changes may indicate JB as he said he wanted them before taking the job. I hope so.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: everbrite on May 05, 2021, 18:06:02 pm
So to summarize the futility of this thread;
OP posts an article from nearly a year ago, bemoaning why recruitment kept on (they haven't been) and should go with the manager as a package.
Another twenty posts more or less saying the same, ignoring the fact the article was from July 2020.
Simon Tracey has (as could be expected) left the building!

 ;D



Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Boot and shoe on May 05, 2021, 19:28:36 pm
Yes, b & S. The changes may indicate JB as he said he wanted them before taking the job. I hope so.
letís hope there is a decent budget and you may well be right .


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: CobblersToMePod on May 06, 2021, 16:02:19 pm
Is the issue really the differences in style of play between academy and first team or that there isnít a Under 23ís or reserve team anymore to allow a better transition from youth to first team?

Sunderland are looking at Johnstone and the other young lad for their Under 23ís NOT their first team.

Arguably the Cobblers donít have room in the first team budget to give all our promising youngsters pro deals. While clubs like Sunderland and Cardiff, who do have that transition system set up, as well as a larger budget, are able to take more risks and give young players more time to develop.

Just a thought that there is more to it than just who is in charge of the first team and recruitment.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Mathius on May 06, 2021, 16:17:35 pm
Is the issue really the differences in style of play between academy and first team or that there isnít a Under 23ís or reserve team anymore to allow a better transition from youth to first team?

Sunderland are looking at Johnstone and the other young lad for their Under 23ís NOT their first team.

Arguably the Cobblers donít have room in the first team budget to give all our promising youngsters pro deals. While clubs like Sunderland and Cardiff, who do have that transition system set up, as well as a larger budget, are able to take more risks and give young players more time to develop.

Just a thought that there is more to it than just who is in charge of the first team and recruitment.

Not having an U23s is a massive problem. Clubs with similar budgets - or in some cases less - do have U23s. Comes down to how money is spent.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: LawfordCob on May 06, 2021, 16:51:16 pm
Not having an U23s is a massive problem. Clubs with similar budgets - or in some cases less - do have U23s. Comes down to how money is spent.

Out of interest could you give us some examples? I've had a look and other than the U23s Premier league I'm not finding anything useful.. I think Coventry do, but then i'd not put them as a similar size club.
Cheers


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Winslow Lee on May 06, 2021, 17:09:08 pm
Many people have discredited Under 23ís football for its usefulness in preparing players for senior football. BAS is a good a example who was scoring goals for fun at a premier league u23ís team but looked out of his depth for us this season.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on May 06, 2021, 17:56:21 pm
Out of interest could you give us some examples? I've had a look and other than the U23s Premier league I'm not finding anything useful.. I think Coventry do, but then i'd not put them as a similar size club.
Cheers

There is an Under 23 Professional Development League, this contains teams such as Crewe Alexandra, Wigan and Barnsley in the North Group, with others such as Ipswich, Charlton and Colchester in the South Group.

U23 Premier League
U23 Premier League 2
U23 Professional Development League


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Welly Cobb on May 07, 2021, 08:26:37 am
Other than Crewe (who are famed for their Academy System) and Colchester, those clubs are bigger than us in terms of infrastructure and fanbase though.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: LawfordCob on May 07, 2021, 09:47:19 am
I think having an U23s is the way to go, maybe this is something Jon wants to see happen(ing) before agreeing to the job? 


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Mathius on May 07, 2021, 11:49:22 am
Out of interest could you give us some examples? I've had a look and other than the U23s Premier league I'm not finding anything useful.. I think Coventry do, but then i'd not put them as a similar size club.
Cheers

Yes, Coventry have one. They have been very good at raising funding from local businesses to support theirs. Two of the nearest ones to us are MK Dons and Peterborough. Stevenage did have one but maybe that's changed because of financial problems. A lot of teams in the lower leagues do have an U23's. As already mentioned, Exeter have had fantastic success producing players for the first team and selling some of them on.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Zen Master on May 07, 2021, 13:27:07 pm
Do reserve leagues still exist? Enjoyed some big reserve games with 4-5k attendances. Seeing David Seal scoring a few and still not get picked on the Saturday.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Mathius on May 07, 2021, 15:09:10 pm
Do reserve leagues still exist? Enjoyed some big reserve games with 4-5k attendances. Seeing David Seal scoring a few and still not get picked on the Saturday.

NTFC still play these but only a handful a season. Most against local rivals like Cambridge and MK.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on May 07, 2021, 23:16:13 pm
NTFC still play these but only a handful a season. Most against local rivals like Cambridge and MK.
What are the rules around us having a team in say the Southern League Division One Central? Or would that be pointless b0ll0cks?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Zen Master on May 08, 2021, 11:25:17 am
NTFC still play these but only a handful a season. Most against local rivals like Cambridge and MK.
I thought these were behind closed doors Friendlies which is similar I suppose but not a structured league.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Mathius on May 08, 2021, 12:44:44 pm
I thought these were behind closed doors Friendlies which is similar I suppose but not a structured league.

Yes, behind closed doors, usually Moulton.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Peles Big Toe on May 08, 2021, 13:14:38 pm
Don't see much benefit in having an academy or reserve team at our level.

There's a nice romance to seeing youth players develop, but very rarely will players progress into the first team, and those with any real promise tend to get poached much earlier by the bigger clubs for pennies.

Brentford scrapped their reserves + academy, invested the money into the recruitment team, and have been able to perform above their level in recent years despite minimal net spend.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: CobblersToMePod on May 08, 2021, 15:59:50 pm
Over the last couple of years we have seen a number of promising young players be offered pro terms. Some of those went on to make appearances for the first team, only for them to be released at the end of their contract.

Jay Williams is a prime example. A lot of fans felt he would go on to become a good player for us. But he then gets released.

We all know that the club aren't made of money and so the playing budget has to be used wisely. There is no room to give these youngsters enough time to prove themselves. With an under 23's or similar, we would be able to give these players more time to make the step up to the first team.

Sean McWilliams only managed to break through because the then chairman gave extra money, outside of the playing budget, to keep him at the club.

I doubt the club have the budget to create this step but without it I don't see how we will see improvements to the play pathway that will see more players breaking through to the first team and then staying in it.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on May 09, 2021, 08:03:08 am
Over the last couple of years we have seen a number of promising young players be offered pro terms. Some of those went on to make appearances for the first team, only for them to be released at the end of their contract.

Jay Williams is a prime example. A lot of fans felt he would go on to become a good player for us. But he then gets released.

We all know that the club aren't made of money and so the playing budget has to be used wisely. There is no room to give these youngsters enough time to prove themselves. With an under 23's or similar, we would be able to give these players more time to make the step up to the first team.

Sean McWilliams only managed to break through because the then chairman gave extra money, outside of the playing budget, to keep him at the club.

I doubt the club have the budget to create this step but without it I don't see how we will see improvements to the play pathway that will see more players breaking through to the first team and then staying in it.
Good point Charles. It seems to me that there hasnít been much thought to who we loan these players out to? Corby or Bedford probably, but basically anywhere that will have them? Part of this new process should involve sending them out to clubs who are the right ones for developing their game rather than any old club to get some game time? A real sense that they are valued and being nurtured rather than some lazy, half arsed gesture, going through the motions bus fare to Corby?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: CobblersToMePod on May 10, 2021, 14:21:06 pm
It will depend on who will have them Melly. You've got to remember that these are young boys, some of which may not have a driving licence yet. It's unlikely that they'll be willing to move too far and there is also the thing of most non-league sides are part time. Our youngsters probably remain training with the youth team on the days when their senior, loan team don't.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Mathius on May 10, 2021, 14:35:23 pm
Over the last couple of years we have seen a number of promising young players be offered pro terms. Some of those went on to make appearances for the first team, only for them to be released at the end of their contract.

Jay Williams is a prime example. A lot of fans felt he would go on to become a good player for us. But he then gets released.

We all know that the club aren't made of money and so the playing budget has to be used wisely. There is no room to give these youngsters enough time to prove themselves. With an under 23's or similar, we would be able to give these players more time to make the step up to the first team.

Sean McWilliams only managed to break through because the then chairman gave extra money, outside of the playing budget, to keep him at the club.

I doubt the club have the budget to create this step but without it I don't see how we will see improvements to the play pathway that will see more players breaking through to the first team and then staying in it.

Couldn't agree more with this. The above managed to get picked up by another L2 club so will probably play against us next season. When Coventry were skint they kept their U23's going as they are sponsored by local businesses. Isn't there anyone at our club who can find local businesses to sponsor an U23's? If not, why not? How do the likes of Exeter do it?


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: DrillingCobbler on May 10, 2021, 15:13:31 pm
Couldn't agree more with this. The above managed to get picked up by another L2 club so will probably play against us next season. When Coventry were skint they kept their U23's going as they are sponsored by local businesses. Isn't there anyone at our club who can find local businesses to sponsor an U23's? If not, why not? How do the likes of Exeter do it?

The problem with under23's at our level is that by the time a player gets to 20/21, if they haven't made it into the first team then its unlikely they ever will. So the under23's team is essentially an under18's team with maybe 3 or 4 max 19 year olds in it.

Far better that these lads are loaned out to non league teams and they get to play 'proper football'. Bridging the gap between under18's to under23's is very costly, the higher up you go in the leagues the more benefit having one (23's team) is though obviously.

You mention Exeter - just googled them - not sure if its accurate but if it is then they don't exactly play many fixtures! https://uk.soccerway.com/teams/england/exeter-city-u23/40148/

Essentially, there is a gap at our level (generally) where a player that gets to 19 and isn't quite good enough for first team, hasn't anywhere to go within the youth structure. So he basically has to go out on loan. This season those feeder leagues all stopped early after hardly playing, and that has been the case now for 15 months so its become a real problem, very much caused by Covid. Will be more like 18 months when the season re-starts, thats almost a generation of young pro's that are struggling to progress for no fault of their own.

You may get a business/s to sponsor it, but that would only be money they'd have spent sponsoring something else at the club. So no extra revenue would be generated, as such. Just a cost base added for very little potential benefit.

I've seen reports that Sunderland are looking at a couple of our young lads, but Sunderland (league1 they may well be) are a totally different level to us financially so its non comparable. They were in the prem not too long ago.

I don't think the issue is with our academy as such, more a case that short termism is always a key element to decision making by whoever the manager is. Chuck didn't even start yesterday, no idea why not, but unless these prospects are given a run in the first team then they will never 'make it' with us. Its almost like we need to have a policy where the manager has to pick 2 academy lads in the starting line up! Because they will always go for the tried and tested players, even if they are not performing well.

A classic example is Ivan Toney. Wilder stuck by Sinclair right until half time against Pompey, 2.5 games before the season ended. He'd been useless for weeks yet kept getting picked. Toney was finally given his chance, the rest as they say is history. If Sinclair had tapped in a goal that half v Pompey, he would have no doubt played at Dagenham and we'd most likely of gone down!!

Why's Bolger been on the bench in recent weeks, when Max Dyche hasn't?

Im not critising Brady by the way, either. I just 'don't really get it'. We have ALWAYS favoured old expensive donkeys over our own prospects whoever has been the manager. Im not saying we should take risks or play kids for the sake of it, but when you've got subs that are never going to come onto the pitch unless we get an injury/sending off, then I see no point why they are even on the bench. Those sub spots would surely be better taken by young prospects?

Sorry for the long post, Ill get back to my day job now!  ;D





Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Winslow Lee on May 10, 2021, 15:28:12 pm
Agree with you about Chucks not starting being strange unless the club knows heís got better offers and will leave. Miller will return to Rotherham and has been a disappointment, Marshall has been more miss than hit and will almost definitely be released. The only one of the front 3 staying is Rose who looks like a poor mans Sam Hoskins!.


Title: Re: Simon Tracey & Dan Watson
Post by: Mathius on May 10, 2021, 15:35:32 pm
The problem with under23's at our level is that by the time a player gets to 20/21, if they haven't made it into the first team then its unlikely they ever will. So the under23's team is essentially an under18's team with maybe 3 or 4 max 19 year olds in it.

Far better that these lads are loaned out to non league teams and they get to play 'proper football'. Bridging the gap between under18's to under23's is very costly, the higher up you go in the leagues the more benefit having one (23's team) is though obviously.

You mention Exeter - just googled them - not sure if its accurate but if it is then they don't exactly play many fixtures! https://uk.soccerway.com/teams/england/exeter-city-u23/40148/

Essentially, there is a gap at our level (generally) where a player that gets to 19 and isn't quite good enough for first team, hasn't anywhere to go within the youth structure. So he basically has to go out on loan. This season those feeder leagues all stopped early after hardly playing, and that has been the case now for 15 months so its become a real problem, very much caused by Covid. Will be more like 18 months when the season re-starts, thats almost a generation of young pro's that are struggling to progress for no fault of their own.

You may get a business/s to sponsor it, but that would only be money they'd have spent sponsoring something else at the club. So no extra revenue would be generated, as such. Just a cost base added for very little potential benefit.

I've seen reports that Sunderland are looking at a couple of our young lads, but Sunderland (league1 they may well be) are a totally different level to us financially so its non comparable. They were in the prem not too long ago.

I don't think the issue is with our academy as such, more a case that short termism is always a key element to decision making by whoever the manager is. Chuck didn't even start yesterday, no idea why not, but unless these prospects are given a run in the first team then they will never 'make it' with us. Its almost like we need to have a policy where the manager has to pick 2 academy lads in the starting line up! Because they will always go for the tried and tested players, even if they are not performing well.

A classic example is Ivan Toney. Wilder stuck by Sinclair right until half time against Pompey, 2.5 games before the season ended. He'd been useless for weeks yet kept getting picked. Toney was finally given his chance, the rest as they say is history. If Sinclair had tapped in a goal that half v Pompey, he would have no doubt played at Dagenham and we'd most likely of gone down!!

Why's Bolger been on the bench in recent weeks, when Max Dyche hasn't?

Im not critising Brady by the way, either. I just 'don't really get it'. We have ALWAYS favoured old expensive donkeys over our own prospects whoever has been the manager. Im not saying we should take risks or play kids for the sake of it, but when you've got subs that are never going to come onto the pitch unless we get an injury/sending off, then I see no point why they are even on the bench. Those sub spots would surely be better taken by young prospects?

Sorry for the long post, Ill get back to my day job now!  ;D



Agree with the first bit but it is crucial to give these young players time to develop. Like in any sport, different players will develop at different rates. I still think an U23's is serving its purpose if we know by the age of 21, whether or not, a player is going to make it or not. If you are going to send young players on loan, the club needs to have some input in this, rather than leave it to the first team manager. I trust JB to do the right thing but that can't be said for all managers. I agree about Toney. Was at the game when Sinclair ducked out of scoring into an empty net. To be fair to Wilder, to a point, a lot of other managers still wouldn't have bought Toney on in the 2nd half of that game.