The Hotel End

Well CJ came up with the idea for this poll, so blame him.

Just remember how much KT/DB have out into the club to keep it running, if you go for Local/Fan ownership those figures do not magically disappear.

AND DON'T ANY OF YOU BUGGERS TURN THIS INTO ANOTHER REDEV THREAD.

I think the pressure will build enough that the whole football model will change, ie there will be no more "one person in charge" scenarios.....fan participation/ownership is the way forward. Whether thats the German 50+1 model, or some hybrid model remains to be seen......

For me, a local consortium, with local people at the helm and lots more local participation is the way forward for clubs at our level.

Agreed, plus give managers and other staff the same contracts as most working people get, i.e if your not good at your job you get a months notice.
   How much of NTFC's £7M debt as gone to former managers ?

Of these options. Option two.

Option five - New investment and ownership would be my preference.

TBH i'd guess not that much..... lets say a manager is on £100k a year......?? Even paying them all off for two years after sacking them (Austin, Curle, Hasselbaink etc) wouldn't add up to a million......

Someone mentioned something on another post.......if the playing staff wage bill is £2m for the year (from the Chief Exec) then why are the staff costs for the year in the accounts shown as £3.9m....where does the rest go??

I very much doubt that JFH got off his ar*e for £100,000.
    Re the "other" £1.9M, I asked this question months ago, there can't be many more than 25 full time staff on the non playing side can they and I think virtually all the match day staff are hourly paid and on minimum wages, they certainly used to be.

You say that about JFH, but how much do you think "little old Burton" are paying him now? I do accept though that JFH came in as part of the Chinese splurge so could have been on considerably more than we'd normally pay.

According to this article the "average League 1 manager" was paid £182k a year. I doubt we'd be at the top end of the scale for paying managerial salaries for the likes of Curle, Austin, Boothroyd, Edinburgh, certainly Brady!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8262315/Physios-191-000-kit-men-56-000-Crazy-wages-dont-add-EFL-clubs-brink.html

Did I?...Dont know whether to be flattered or what?!
I asked the question, at what point would a phoenix club be a serious consideration for a majority of fans (opposed to that scenario being forced upon us).
I asked because I am probably in the minority in the sense that I support and have supported the club for many years but have no other direct links to Northampton. To me the club is Northampton Town Football Club opposed to NORTHAMPTON Town football club if you get the distinction. The Cobblers are the closest league club to where I have lived for the majority of my life (arguably Coventry but I would never have been allowed to support them given the pretty strong family links to Villa), and I live in Northamptonshire, just, which I'm pretty firm about but I have no relatives, friends or ex wives hanging out in the town or any other reason to visit really.
So if NTFC went to the wall I wouldnt see it as a loss to the fabric of Northampton or the Town losing part of its heritage in the way most might, and I know Melbourne would.
So if a Phoenix club formed independently or not of the collapse of NTFC, that would to me be an appropriate thing if the majority of fans felt the same. It would not work for me if it was a takeover of an existing junior club like Sileby or ON Checkniks though. We would need to start again and in doing so deliberately pull whatever was left from under the feet of the old club. I wouldn't be drowning in my beer at the demise of NTFC, I would be angry that two guys preceded by a father and son amd others before them had all held to club I had heavily invested in over the years to ransom in order to line their own pockets, but I would be more excited at the prospect of something rising in its place which truly represented your town free from exploitative property developers and the like. Whether it was fan owned or owned by a local consortium would not initially be a serious consideration for me.

I chose 62% option as its a pragmatic choice and favoured so far 8)

I did the poll based upon you question regarding the phoenix club just to see where the dice falls. I am a bit like you. I have no direct links to Northampton. I grew up in the county, but do not consider Northampton to be my "Home Town". I would be deeply saddened if NTFC were to fold after all my years of supporting them and their long history, but I'm not sure I would throw my support behind a phoenix club, it just would not be the same. As to what may bring the demise of the club, I think it better we leave that topic to be discussed on the "other" thread.

The fan ownership suggestion is an interesting on, in principle I think it would be the best thing for all lower league clubs to be all fan owned. At the moment that isn’t the case though, there’s been so many complaints about our player budget this year but if we were fan owned our budget compared to other teams would have to be reduced and would be even smaller, the club couldn’t run at the loses it does now. I wonder how forgiving fans would be then, if we weren’t doing well but had no means to bring in players at Christmas to sort it out, I fear fans would be calling for the next taxi on the rank to take over the club.

I would CJ, correct. As others have stated the German model only works because it is underpinned by legislation. The only way to have a chance of influencing that is if all the supporters Trusts join a National co-operative and make a unified decision to lobby for this? Obviously each Trust would remain independent but if supporters really want a voice and some control that’s the only realistic way to achieve it I can think of?

While I admire your stance CJ and the fact that people with no direct links to Northanpton have an affinity and allegiance to the football team is a refreshing change to people who actually do have an affinity and direct link to the town, but choose to support; Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea etc, to me the club is most certainly and undeniably NORTHAMPTON TOWN Football Club. To me and many people it is territorial, almost tribal. Why would anyone wish success on a town/ city they have no connection with, other than the fact they chose them when they were at school when they had a bit of success and I'm on about bandwagonners here CJ, obviously not you. Surely the success and popularity of your own town brings a sense of pride you can be a part of and revel in, not some shallow pretence of another towns success. As for going to the wall not being a loss to the fabric of the town, to me, that is sacrilege. While, if the club did have to rise, Phoenix like, from the ashes I would certainly be behind it but the thought of losing our 100+ year league status is unthinkable and whoever was the architect of such a demise, I'd like to think they'd be unwelcome and fearful of ever setting foot in our fair town ever again. Just my own thoughts and opinions. Anyone else?

We could with being able to choose two options 😀

No chance of progress past league one under fan ownership. Either decent caveats around enabling money, or a very generous/mad owner.

1967

The last year we were higher than League One  ;)

I absolutely understand your position, believe me I do. That's why I asked the question earlier, in case I was surprised by some of the answers (although I wasnt actually expecting replies).
Just to add, I am also very proud of our 100 year league status, I've said so on here before. I dont think it should be underestimated and indeed when you look at the list of clubs who have resolutely 'stayed league', about sixty the last time I looked, we are one of the smallest and least effective in terms of our overall history, so very well done, we can give ourselves a big pat on the back. I hope I csn say that without being a townie!

League 1 or 2 status could quite possibly be maintained under fan ownership, but most of the critics on here, who are calling for change, seem to think we have some divine right to be playing at championship level, simply because Northampton is a large town. Sadly it doesn't work like that.

If the funds are achieved to buy the club by 'the fans', who is going to fund the £1-1.5m annually (with no return), in order to maintain the club at it's current Div 4 level?
Is our budget going to be dropped to a break even level, which would put us in an even worse financial situation regarding improvement? 
"Standing still is going backwards"

Be interested to know from someone who fully understands accounts. From companies house...

AFC Wimbledon - looks like they've racked up losses of just short of 2million in the last 2 years?
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/04458490/filing-history

Exeter's - looks like they've got plenty of available cash, but cant see a profit/loss summary?
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00097808/filing-history

Newport County's - looks like just short of a million quid profit in their last filed accounts year, very small loss year before?
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02395863/filing-history

These are obviously the three current owned fans clubs in the football league; Wimbledon I think its fair to say have progressed well over the years but were close to being relegated these year. Exeter have been strong in league2 for some time now and still have a chance of making the playoffs. Newport Should make the playoffs.

There is no reason why a fans lead club shouldn't be able to perform reasonably well as a football league club in my opinion, and these examples surely back that view up? That said, its probably the ceiling as to how far they can go. I also think its fair to say that unless you get a sugar Daddy, making the jump from league1 to the championship and sustaining it is 'high roller' territory.

However. Where I do kind of have a different view to those who are more fan owned 'fans' than myself..is that each of these three clubs came back from its knees, gained significant momentum coming out of the national league (or lower) and 'carried that on' into the football league. Infrastructure wise they set themselves up at a time where their income wouldn't have all been spent on trying to compete in league1 or league2. And are now reaping the benefits of that. IF for example, the fans took ownership of NTFC as a football league club, the challenges to compete with its rivals whilst at the same time investing in training facilities, the academy (over and above current levels) etc with be vastly different than if 'we' took ownership much lower down the pyramid.

Which brings us onto the much talked about hybrid model. Where its a mix of fan ownership and private investment. IF it became the situation where every club has to follow that route, then I believe NTFC would hugely benefit from it. Because it would be a level playing field, 'rich fans' might want to have a 'play' etc etc. We are in a relatively prosperous area in the country, big catchment etc. Relative versus our rivals, I reckon we'd do alright. Bring it on! However; I have a different view point if we were to 'go it alone' with this model. Personally, I couldn't see it working. Would a business person sink significant money into a project that he/she doesn't control? When they could go to any other club etc and enjoy total freedom? I'm not so sure. Of course such individual/s do exist I'm sure, but would they sign up to a joint project from the off?

Its a fascinating topic. I see lots of views from both sides of the argument that are in my view, 'loaded'. I think reform across the whole footballing industry is absolutely necessary, but closer to home there are many challenges, many questions that would need answering etc. I hope that one day football becomes a much more, fan lead (financially) industry, but frankly I cant see it happening. It would effectively mean a nationalisation of private run businesses. Maybe if Corbyn had won it might have been!  ;D In Germany, they went the other way, from total community owned clubs to allowing private investment. Its a much bigger challenge going the way we need to go in this country.

Sadly while I think a lot of people hold this view I have to say I think it's pretty naive and very unlikely to ever happen.  It's also part of the reason why I think fan ownership in any form is very limited.

Think for one moment about what would have to happen for any of this to take place.  You think any of the big clubs, prem clubs, even some championship clubs would want or allow this to happen other than in a minimal token form?  Some of these are multi million even billion pound businesses.  The only way 50+1 etc. could ever be implemented is through legislation.  Does anyone seriously believe that a conservative government cares about the common man above private business and rich owners?

Don't even get me started on the premier league, football league, Uefa, Fifa, the PFA etc. who all have vested interests mostly financial in nothing changing.

The fact that Gary "Salford City" Neville has somehow become the voice of the fans and fair competetive leagues should tell you everything you need to know about what happens next.  

I know you are a champion of fan ownership but don’t necessarily agree that is the way forward at the moment. It lacks overall support and a charismatic leader like Brian Lomax and Rob Marshall! If things improve dramatically on the pitch and we prove capable of maintaining our League 1 position and/or better, the enthusiasm this incites might be more realistic for this type of initiative. At the moment the support is split and all over the place with opinions. Best to let things settle down, see who is made Manager and how we shape up for L2? I can recall two opportunities; season 64/65 in the old Div 2 in our second season in L2 with crowds over 12000 was an opportunity to progress with a New Stadium. Second in my view was June 2020 when most of us  where in unison after a miraculous promotion. Both wasted opportunities?

I have been in full agreement with almost all your stuff over the last few days. However when you say big clubs and the like what you are actually talking about is the legal owners. I say “legal” owners for want of a better word as the real owners and true voice of the clubs are obviously the fans, ask them and you may well get a different answer. If every supporters group was capable of unifying its support base and then was able to unify with every other supporters group around the country anything would be possible? Idealistic nonsense maybe, but not impossible? Small steps gentlemen/ladies? Either way don’t confuse these self absorbed, egotistical and rapacious individuals with the true owners of the clubs thank you 😉

GPC, I know your self and a lot of the trust keep banging on about fan ownership,  but could you just wait to see what the fans want first? Maybe even wait to see the outcome of the poll on this thread to see which way the fans are leaning ?

Agreed

GPC is not representing the Trust on here, they are his own personal views and he is entitled to express them and the outcome of a poll on here ain't really worth diddly-squat.

Maybe he could reply for himself ?

Ok, I will!!

The poll has a very small response so far, but i'm already finding it interesting! I of course did not pose the questions, so i'd be interested to know how many of the "majority" so far want the KT option or the someone else option as both were contained in the same response.

Is there an element of "better the devil you know".....do people know enough about what a "fan ownership" model would actually look like?

Its difficult to read to much into the figures so far but i'm not going to dismiss them, and indeed have reported back to other Trust board members on the poll's progress so far!

My personal view is that I would like to see a fan ownership model, but i'm not naïve to think that would mean that fans ran the club and were the only ones putting in an money. Its already been touched on but there are a number of local people out there who could possibly come on board should things change and there be a full business plan put together.

There are a number of other schemes.... one of which, "Foundation of Hearts" is I think an excellent model to look at as a possible way forward.  https://www.foundationofhearts.org/

TCobb, yes I agree wholeheartedly that anything that happens has got to be "what the fans want"...... the question is, how do we actually get to find out what the majority of NTFC fans want? Does the club run a survey, does the Trust do it? I'm not sure of the answer to that at the moment. Polls like this though give an inkling of an idea.

I think everyone would agree just by looking at the posts on this site that there is no unified thought process at the moment, either on a local level, or even a national (dareIsay European level!)

Drilling puts it quite nicely in his post below (16:25), I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he has said there.

That just about sums up my personal feelings on this matter.

Something that was mentioned on here, about the "sticky" Trust section on this messageboard, all too sparsely populated over the past few years.....I have now posted in there!

Might be easier to post replies/responses/updates all in one place rather than populate many different threads with the answers to what are broadly the same questions!

Many fans don't seem to care who has ownership so not sure how much notice should be paid to their view. Sorry if that sounds harsh but surely thats true. The fans never had a vote with any other owner.

Any fan ownership / hybrid model would be funded by those who chose to and hence have the control. Ordinary fans like Hammy are happy with any football so it shouldn't matter to them if the owners are local and care about the club.

I strongly believe that under local ownership, a lot more business support would be forthcoming as would, given time, more fans would return. 

We have to focus on a long term plan, we have to change, we have to build step by step, with younger, hungry players, give them time. Have a plan to improve the training facilities, beg, steal or borrow whatever we can.

People will come along if we are on a journey.

No-one has a right to Championship football but Wycombe have just experienced it and that only happened when local ownership got the club moving and attracted decent investment.

So I say to the Trust - rebrand and go again, this time with more determination, get the business people on board, get a plan and make it public.
As other have said, it needs to be modern in it's approach, get as many people on board as possible and keep pushing until the change happens.

If you want the 51% model to work then it has to be replicated as in Germany. Every club included backed up by legislation? An incredibly difficult challenge to overcome retrospectively? However, if football is to survive the fast approaching financial Armageddon something radical and challenging needs to occur? It can only happen with a unified fan base at club and national level?

Excluding anyone is counterproductive and doomed to failure. A consistent issue with your posts is that you will continually voice your interpretation of other people’s opinion decide that is accurate, and demand a strategy based on this assumption? How do you know they don’t care, perhaps they are happy with KT, perhaps they are not but think any alternative spells disaster for the club? The continual rhetoric you convey is divisive, antagonistic and plays right into the hands of the the type of owner you are working to exclude? I know this comes from a passion and your heart is in the right place but I am going to call you out for it because I feel this type of communication is unfair and stifles any momentum. I’ve told you this before, put forward your view on the club, it’s vital you do. However, do not suppress or exclude opinion from other supporters because you by default become the ally of all you find abhorrent. All IMO of course.

Says a lot really that despite what happened with Cardoza and what seems to be happening with Thomas/Bower that the "As is"
option is leading. We need change and sticking with what we've got or what we had or what we might get has obviously never worked as a way forward for improvement in over 50 years. We're no further forward with no better facilities, infrastructure, ideas, league position etc. We're exactly as we were when we entered the league in the bottom division over 100 years ago and have spent the majority of our existence in it. Doesn't that suggest that something drastic or radical needs to happen. My own choice would be the 50+1% option which appears to work pretty well in Germany and doesn't have to mean complete fan ownership and could attract interest and investment from numerous local businesses who want to see a successful football team in their town and also wealthier fans who would be prepared to put their hands in their pockets if they knew it was for the benefit of the club and not lining someone else's pocket and keep the onus on the people who actually have the clubs interest at heart. I know there needs to be a fundamental change and apparently some sort of legislation for this to happen but something radical needs to happen soon otherwise we're just going to plod on as we were for the next 100 years in our poxy little tin box with no ambition and no way forward, or possibly a whole lot worse and that is so sad.

You, Ragdoll,  Mysterious Curle going to lead us to the promised land. Most of that above is pie in the sky when do you Guys ever get real?

You clearly have not seen Rob Marshall lately....

 :o :o

Mel C, I am just saying that if a group of fans want a change of ownership they have to make their own statements and plans. All this asking what fans want is pointless.

Put together a plan and sell it to those who need to buy into it ie: WNC, KT, investors. The help move the plan forward, the more fans that support it the better.

That's all I'm trying to say, I am not trying to exclude anyone. At the end of the day, a few people lead, the rest follow. The Trust / fan 50+1 option need to lead and motivate fans to support them in their plan.

Ok lets say people are happy with KT, why?  he pays the bills and used to smile a lot!  Pretty sure a fan/investor model could certainly do that as a minimum.

In fact I would love to hear opinions from other supporters, especially those pro the current situation - but you rarely hear them, just as you attack me, they do the same - see the everbrite post just above - "pie in the sky"  with no reason to support KT other than " he saved us" and we are not non-league (yet)

Evers - why should I support KT rather than something else like local investment and support?

Not an attack, just an observation. Completely your choice if you decide to take it onboard or not obviously?

I do understand what you are saying Mel C.  :)

Of course you want as many fans as possible behind you, just don't let others that don't agree put you off. that's all I'm saying.

The two questions or thoughts I have and cant get rid of are where does the money come from (as lots of others do) and would I want / trust any of the fans I know or the ones who post on here running the club? And I include myself in that.

That last one is a bit more open as I know this isn't LinkedIn or anything like that but very few people have the knowledge, skill or aptitude to run a successful business. Throw in to that the passion we all have for the club, would you really be able to look at things objectively? Fan representation at board meetings etc yes, but full ownership or 50+1 I'm not convinced by.

I am genuinely not being falsely modest and mean this in the nicest possible way, but I am living proof that is absolute b0ll0cks. It’s nowhere near as difficult as you would imagine. If you are lucky enough to stumble across the right product in the right market and are not afraid to ask for help you will pick it up as you go along, trust me.

Fair enough. In response all I’m saying is if you took a more conciliatory position, more people may be swayed by your opinions? Just a suggestion, nothing more?

So, Everbright, which bits are pie in the sky?
The fact that our owners over the years have invariably taken us nowhere, apart from down the garden path and back again.
The fact that we're in the bottom division, exactly where we were 100 years ago and have spent most of our time.
The fact that our ground is tin pot.
The fact that we don't have the facilities or infrastructure to survive at a higher level for any sustained period.
The fact that something needs to change.
I could go on. What are your thoughts or suggestions on what we need to do to try to progress to the next level, or are you happy to kick around the bottom division or worse for the next 100 years?

still waiting an answer from Evers to my question please

Woody, what makes KT more qualified than me or many others on this board? As Mel C says

Are you really worried about WHERE the money comes from?

KT & DC have both splashed cash and also then both spent as little as possible to keep the club afloat, neither has worked that well. Its about getting value for a start, football is like no other business BUT it's still a business, just from the outside the worst run businesses on the planet. Most successful business spend lots of money on research and development, planning, infrastructure and training. Over the last 15 years NTFC owners have literally spent pennies in these areas yet millions in players, managers, agents and coaches fees, wages and settlements.

We did actually have a bit of pay back with Goode but that money has made zero difference to NTFC as it all seemed to go back into the pockets of KT / DB as like DC they were supposedly owed millions.

Like I said 6 years ago, if we had invested in a young, modern manager with a 5 year contract, taken young hungry 'failure' players from higher up the leagues, mix with a few of our own youth players and add a couple of very experienced coaching players, then how much money would the club have saved?  Told the fans and football in general this was our planning and we want to develop players (look at Boro with Toney, we sell him for £200k, them £6m? plus add-ons worth millions more when he signs for Prem).

Now I hope with have not paid 1p this season for Edmundson because if we have we have overpaid. What a complete waste IMO, can you tell me that any of our youth players or signing someone else full-time would have been worse. What is the upside for us when players are successful - ala Morton.  - They leave and never return (ok Morton did have a short term impact). If Morton was ours, we would have benefitted with a £1m sale or another season at a higher level, as we all know if he was here this season, we would not have been relegated.

As i said I would be happy to finish 18th in league 2 for 3 seasons if that meant the 5 seasons after that we more successful and we had some better infrastructure or attracted genuine investment.

Surely there must be more than the 5 of us on here who are fed-up with how crap so much of Northampton is.

Other places can do better, so why can we?  Look at Rushden Lakes, in my day Rushden was the last place you ever wanted to go. Now they build some shops and entertainment and 90% + people in the area will go these rather than the Town Centre.

There is a hunger for success in Northampton, we had 22,000 + in League 1 in 1966, 11500 in 1987, took 44000 to Wembley in 1998, hell we took 7000 to MK cos we had a chance to play Chelsea !!! (perhaps that sentence there Woody demonstrates more knowledge and passion for NTFC than KT, a key part of building a successful business)

People want to be associated with success and or feeling good that they are making a difference, being involved, connected and appreciated. As a NTFC fan how often have you had those feelings in the last 10 years (Buckets shaking etc excluded)
 

I've lost count of the number of times we've said "we won't go down the route of filling the squad with loan players"....yet we keep doing it!

Quality not quantity....that was what Curle said at the beginning of the season......

Now we have an interim manager who was in charge of a decent youth team, yet the youth players don't get anywhere near the first team? Whats that all about?

On Monday night both Tom Scott and Ethan Johnston turned out on trial for Sunderland U-23's...... not good enough for our first team yet good enough to be looked at by Sunderland?

What is the plan? Where is the direction?

KT was more qualified because he has proven success elsewhere in and out of football. Or at least that was my perception.

A lot of discussion on the various threads has been about a generic fan ownership model and surprise that more people don't support it (massively generalising years and maybe millions of post).
If there was something more tangible, who would be the chairman, who would be on the board, what their history and credentials are etc then it may get more support. I've seen nothing yet, from the Trust or any other group that puts any structure or any confidence that there are people who can take on the club and push it forward, not just do what's needed to keep us as we are now. If KT agreed to sell 51% or more to the fans, at a reasonable price, how long would it take us to have the structure in place?

I agree with your statement and approach on investing in managers and players, having 3 or 4 years to build a squad etc. But you need the money to invest in the first place, you need to have money for contingency in case you lose a player or the manager either to other clubs or injuries etc, and I fear the minority would support this approach long term and the majority would be calling it a failure after 3 to 4 months and calling for change.

Are there more than five on here who still live in Northampton?

Good question.

Surely today's football club owner must come from as far away as possible, so that's Melly again. Although as they seem to be persuaded to change clubs he might have a fight on his hands with the amiable Glazer brothers.

People still don't go to Rushden. They go to a glorified metal box on the outskirts to be met by the usual shopping culprits that sell the same old crap that you used to get in the high street.

You do like putting the cart before the horse 8). At the moment it is KT who pays the Bills and ensures we have a club to watch. There is a lot of pie in the sky floating around since last Saturday. If Guys like you wish to run the Club we may or will go bust within 12months. Have you got £4000 to put into the Club to help make this 51% thing happen? If not ..put up etc. Might be a good idea if so me of you Guys wait to see who is appointed Manager; consider his plans for the future along with Sir KT of course and then plan accordingly. As an aside how long have you supported the Club , genuine question so don't get irrational :o

I think you need more time..quote " I could go on" so please add as many reasons as you seem as fit. In any case am currently rescuing my runner beans which are all over the place at the mo'!

Typical non response from the martyr of NTFC. Firstly; what are you on about, secondly;  What are your suggestions to successfully sustain us at the next level?

I reckon I’d rather be on the board of the Trust than the club? That’s where the real action could be? I’d either be a glittering success or the biggest failure in its history. What we really don’t want as a group of supporters is the club to go out of the league or bust and us all on here going “could’ve, would’ve, should’ve”. Just need a cunning plan or 2?

So therefore Evers as long as the club is running you don't care who is in charge !

Evers Have Exeter, Motherwell, Wycombe and every club in German gone bust within 12 months.

I have supported NTFC since 1975 when I was 6 years old. Went to every game par 3 in the 1987 season and been to a large number of games over the years and yes I WAS there in the 942 v Chester on a Tuesday night. I looked after the programme sellers & 50-50 sellers, who were not paid as I recruited and looked after them, saving the club £80k+ plus over the years. I was voted supporter of the Year in 2012, I have never taken a penny in wages from the club, and my real big claim to fame is that I supplied the office chair that DC sat on when producing those "from the store cupboard" updates  ;D.  Does that qualify me enough of a fan or do you need more?

Personally at the time I was more interested in the business side of the club rather than the team, especially when we started getting loan player after loan player but DC kept me more at arms length the closer he got to development money as he knew I wouldn't keep my mouth shut !!!

Woody: Pretty sure KT was not successful too much in either football or business, didn't exactly do much for Oxford other than tick over and don't talk about Torquay. Certainly would think David Jackson would be qualified enough for you.
Basically sorry but you have not got a clue about KT, his past or his present. Question: where does KT live and where does our major shareholder live?

Evers, if I'm putting the cart before the horse, your horse is in the knackers yard yet you keep betting it's gonna win the Grand National one day.

Have you forget how you got it so so wrong with DC??

Please tell me how KT differs from DC cos I can list many many things that they are the same

A story of unity and strength of will from our past.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/the-agony-and-the-ecstasy/2015/oct/16/northampton-town-supporters-trusts-football-clubs

That’s really unfair because we haven’t given him the time to half build a house in Brampton yet using council loaned money.  :P

In your post you said it was possible to name more reasons outlining your discontent with KT. So rather than reply in haste to an incomplete questionnaire I prefer to wait for your finely tuned form. Look forward to receiving it. Please no jokes/comedy acts on Martyr's - lets keep it serious. Thanks for your anticipated cooperation!

Not sure my post was specifically outlining my discontent with KT, I was mainly outlining my discontent with various owners over the years who, for different reasons have never been able to sustain any sort of success at a higher level, which is why I suggested that maybe a new model is necessary. Anyway, for the third time, what are your ideas or suggestions as to what may enable us to compete at a higher level for more than a couple of years?

Once again KT spouts flannel .
He is a master of waffle and makes it sound interesting without saying anything whatsoever .
Give facts Kelvin .
What exactly is going to change ?
What exactly is the plan ?
When exactly are we going to see a resolution to the stand rebuild ?
What exactly are you looking for in the manager ?
How do you explain that players in every other division 1 team are being paid more than our best players ?
Why haven’t you tied up our best players for next season ?
Facts not waffle

Where did you get this information from?

Maybe the same place as ‘Why is our budget probably the lowest in the division?’ which the club have said is not true and not even in the bottom 4.

So basically it is the usual Hotel End page let's pluck some shít out of our árses and post it on here as a fact.

I believe that most on here realise that the majority of the 'facts' posted by the few are nothing of the sort and treat them as such. 
The problem is when people start quoting and regurgitating them as the facts that they aren't.  ;)

Of course, nobody really knows what the facts are...unless you are one of those wielding power. Things are said by various official parties but then do you know that those are even true?

Wage and wage budgets for this season of course will not have been reported in any set of club accounts yet, a few clubs may even detail them next year, but the rest is speculation.

Exactly... ;)

Yes, but what fúcks me off is when people try to use the regurgitated rubbish as "facts" to support their cases.

Exactly, which is what I said.  ;)

It appears that JB doesn't agree with some on here that KT is spouting 'flannel'?  :o

IT'S GUESS WHO I AM TIME;

1 : I do not  put any positive ideas forward, but find fault with all other people ideas.
2 : I have over   :o 1600  :o  posts.
3 : I would argue with my self but i don't have time cos i'm always on here, spouting my non-sense.
4 : I wear a hat.
5 : I am the wrong side of fifty,
6 : I have never posted a positive comment.
7 : This board would be a happier place if i was BANNED.


please feel free to guess

WHO AM I

Must be you, I can grant you your wish.  ;)

Contrary to 'Keith' and also you have posted some positive comments; generally I mostly comment on the Team and try very hard not abuse Management and/or Players. I have no wish or inclination to reply to your demands except that I await with interest on who is appointed Manager and proposed new plans. As a matter of interest you clearly have been on here before under another ID; are you prepared to reveal your former ID?

I agree completely.

I have said before. They build an imaginary narrative, then start to believe it by constantly repeating it. Then have a go at others for not joining in.  ;D ;D

I don’t think I’ve been particularly abusive about any players, certainly critical of certain individuals, but also supportive of others. I don’t even think I’ve been abusive about KT either just pointed out a few times
that he hadn’t done what he’d promised and that we haven’t really got anywhere under his stewardship.
Also, I’m not making any demands on you, just interested in what your suggested alternatives might be when you’re so disparaging about anything I may have thoughts on and no I haven’t been on here under another ID before although I have been reading it for years.

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/cobblers-to-take-a-more-data-driven-approach-to-recruitment-3228390

Given the standard of recruitment last season, I am disappointed but not surprised that this was not already in place? When you are investing in a player whether it be contractually or with a fee I would have thought it is vital that you evaluate that decision with all available information at your disposal? IMO this is basic professional management stuff, and a significant failing if this process was not a significant factor previously? Don’t worry, I’m not about to go into a business management lecture, but this is quite an admission on the part of the club, again IMO?

The article does say the club will ‘increase the use of statistics’ in decision making, so it’s not like it wasn’t being used. What I take from the article is statistics will play a bigger aspect in the decision at the expense of the scouting system. Is that a good thing? I don’t know, on the basis of how poor last summers recruitment was then probably I guess.

Sports science and use of data is huge in professional sport. Different level but for Saints for example tag their players, know what they are sleeping, exercising, constantly accessing niggles and adapting training schedules etc. There will be stats available on everything now and I’m sure there is tons of stuff that goes on that we don’t see.
I would hope that we’ve moved on from scouts watching players with his whippet down the park, although you have to question some of our recruitment and injury levels.

I bet super Sammy comes close to top of every statistical analysis that he gets entered for.
It's what were aiming for, a team full of Hoskinites.

Bit late for that. If KT worked for me I’d be asking him to consider his position? But he doesn’t so I’m not.

Stats profile from last summers recruitment.
Do you know where Northampton is - yes
Are you a footballer- yes
Are your expectations of wages low - yes
Do you run around a lot - yes
Do you promise you are fit more often than not - yes
100%

The very fact he admitted to not bothering to recruit someone this summer to do the job properly speaks volumes.
 
An analyst would be on max £35k + few thousands for the database. Absolute no brainer to me, given the scatter-gun approach to signings last year it pays for itself.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't see this as 'manipulating hogwash' at all.

After a season of failure and missed opportunities, what I want to see is genuine analysis rather than glib platitudes. IMO KT is correct in his diagnosis of the main issues:

1. 'We didn't recruit enough League 1 experience'
2. 'I don't think we recruited to the style of play Keith was looking to play'
3. we possibly needed a target man and more strength at the back
4. Need for more data-driven recruitment
5. Disconnect between the youth team and first team in terms of style of play (making it difficult to integrate young players)

Given that our budget was 'not a bottom four budget' (Whiting), the primary responsibility has to be born by Curle and Tracey for their poor recruitment.

You imply that fully data-driven recruitment is a 'basic strategy' but I suspect that it is still far from universal in L2 and the lower end of L1. I suspect there are still many old-school managers (Curle and Sheridan to name two) who prefer to recruit on gut-instinct. Curle has said in podcast interviews that he recruits primarily on 'character' which is why we've ended up with a squad of plucky triers without the requisite quality to perform in L1. (I suspect KT's contentment with character-based recruitment might be an over-correction based on the talented but gutless squad of Crooks, Van Veen, Grimes and Periera who got us relegated so meekly last time around.)

The signing of Harry Smith is a classic example of where we've been going wrong. I strongly suspect that Curle saw him score and play well against us, took in his 6'5 height and build, took a cursory glance at his record of 9 goals in 39 games for struggling Macc
and decided that he was the answer to his search for that elusive target man. If we had a proper data analyst then they might well have uncovered that he wins comparatively few 'aerial duals' and this hold-up possession to lay-off ratio is low: in other words, he ain't no targetman. Danny Rose is another case study: a player with good 'character' and 'work rate' who was seemingly signed without anyone properly analysing whether he would thrive on the type of chances we were creating (or not creating) at the time.

IMO KT's acknowledgement of these issues is an important step forward, however modest and belated it might be. I also welcome his implicit acknowledgement that the club's style of play or 'identity' needs to evolve beyond the hoofball purveyed by messers Curle and Boothroyd. There's a reason why virtually every team in L1 plays passing possession football these days, with Gillingham (who have some artisans like Dempsey to compliment the directness) the exception that proves the rule. Hoofball merchants like Curle are found out at L1 level and it's time for us to leave that behind.

Time will tell if KT can deliver on his recruitment promises. However, this is the first time I've seen him properly analyse and acknowledge the structural issues underpinning our L2-L1 yo-yo cycle, and that for me is a positive step forward. 

It is a shocking indictment of how to run a business let alone a football club.

Bungle always puts up thought provoking and intelligent posts, but 6 years to develop a thorough and effective recruitment and development policy, give me a break? If the correct processes were in place the failures listed at the beginning of the post wouldn’t have occurred, and six years to implement them is p155 poor. It’s not like this hasn’t been a major issue in the past, this should have been addressed last time we had a team full of Ash Taylors , Joe Bunny’s and Vent Spleens leaning on the corner flag scratching their ball bag, if not the get go. This is not the first club they have owned either? Fair enough they have identified significant areas of concern, but after 6 years? Sorry to go on about it but simply not good enough I’m afraid?

I agree that this change in policy could and should have been implemented earlier. I think KT has finally realised that he's taken an overly 'hands off' approach to the transfer policy during our League One seasons which has led to either the recruitment of players with poor character (the Van Veen/Periera relegation season) or lack of ability (this season). 

On the other hand, we've had two promotions and a £1 million plus sale during his tenure: there are definitely a lot of lower-league clubs whose recruitment has been significantly worse than ours.

My argument is that it's a case of better late than never. I greet the new structure with cautious optimism but it remains to be seen whether it will bear fruit. 

IMO KT is full of s...t.

The key point for me is that you adopt any and all means at your disposal including strategies and processes, to minimise the risk of that happening? Identify areas of weakness in any strategy or process and improve where budgetary or personnel constraints allow. A continual process of record, measure, report, evaluate, implement to protect and grow the business. Apologies for the patronising rhetoric, but that could be straight out of any textbook of basic management for beginners?

I suppose it’s because I am so incredulous that modern professional techniques (data and statistical analysis ain’t that new) hasn’t been adopted previously? I naturally assumed they were? I have been supportive of the board in the past, because from a financial perspective they have been mostly bang on with the decision making? It might have been at odds with some supporters expectations for the club, but it allowed them to defend their position with some element of credibility?

However, if you are going to use that standard to defend them, it would be amiss if you turned a blind eye when they came up so short when applying that criteria in other key areas? All that says to me is that we have recruited a bloody good accountant onto the board but the Operations Director is either sh1t, or gone AWOL, particularly in light of the fact they have constantly repeated the same mistake at significant cost and consequence? Anyway as I said, sorry for banging on about it, I’m having a fume because we got relegated.

I know I’ve got tooth ache and I’m pissed off, the whiskey is easing the pain though 👍

Could be  ;D although I’m no dentist  ;D ;D

Of course it’s all about opinions and mine is that the  data driven sports scientist route has a value at the elite level of any sport - fine margins with the best sportsmen in the world but for Division 3 and 4 you can have a 20 TB hard disk of data but continuing to play(for example) a goalkeeper who will gift the opposition a goal or two most games makes all that data somewhat redundant - tactical nous for the league you are in, good level of fitness, team spirit and reasonable players will see you in the right half of the table at this level - this season we particularly failed on points 1 and 4.

Couldnt agree more.

We didn't recruit enough players who could pass to each other

Or kick the ball properly half the time.

Ok, but the whole point is that your data analysis is done effectively then you are less likely to sign a 'goalkeeper who will gift the opposition a goal or two' in the first place.

If someone had looked properly at Mitchell's during his previous loan spells (not just goals conceded, but shots spilled, distribution accuracy, claims on crosses, 'goals saved above average' etc) then we might have gone for someone else. 

He did ok today, looked confident in spite of some adverse opinion on here. Regarding your above analysis final para you use 'might' which might suggest you don't have this crucial information. Can you add details off Mitchells previous form as that might help?

signed by Derby in 2014.
Now 26 with just 35 league appearances as a loan player since then before joining us.
Only pieces of information anyone needs to know I would have thought?
First choice league one keeper? I think not.

Maybe but certainly not conclusive. To me the give away is that Derby have retained him since 2014 if you are correct! If he has been so unreliable as you and others maintain then presumably he would not have been retained.

As a matter of interest is the voting going the way you expected?

Actually I am quite surprised with the "status quo" option being the most popular.
I expected option 2 followed by option 4 to be the most popular.

Me too, although I’ve already given my opinion on this. Surely there are more than 56 members of this board or aren’t many people really bothered about the future of NTFC?

Fair point and I agree more comprehensive analysis on a player’s playing statistics (with the small caveat of past performance doesn’t always reflect the future) is useful and you quote a good example - my irritation is more with the in depth scientific/medico stuff - you didn’t need vast amounts of data on heart rate, km run during a game, hydration rates etc etc to tell you for example both Sheehan and McCormack were risky signings on an injury front.

I’m not mate. I have never been to a single game where any form of disenchantment or protest has been shown towards the owners. I’m not saying that directly translates into unanimous satisfaction across the support. But at present, they doesn’t appear to be any appetite for change.

I repeat DOESN'T “APPEAR" TO BE........

A good ol Irish dram, I'm guessing then...by the spelling?  ;)

When it comes to medicinal drink I’m not fussy 😀

Am not all surprised and think it probably represents a pointer towards how the supporter base reflects on the current overall situation. Clearly those championing public ownership have a lot to do.

This is what surprised me. By the way the fan onwership lot were going on I though 99.99% of Cobblers want it.

I think it’s got a lot to do with the way the questions are written  ;D

In fairness this is a tiny sample so difficult to extrapolate much of any meaning from it, but for indicative purposes it "feels" about right as I see it - ³/₄ who are happy with the status quo/just want to watch their football in peace, ¹/₅ who are in favour of fan ownership and ¹/₂₀ who are apparently brain damaged.  :P

The problem with Fan Ownership is no one understands the mechanics of how it would work.
If there was 49% investment and a elected board it could work.
I see there is a petition about legislation in English football with a 50+1 model being implemented, it has over 100,000 signatures! So will be heard in parliament.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/583310

The attraction with injury prone players is you can often get a better quality of player then is usually available. The likes of Akinfenwa and Gyepes fit that mould, both of which turned out to be very astute signings in the end. Obviously you have to balance the risk, but I don't think it's stupid to take a chance on it working out.

And universally ignored in football.

And in parliament, it will be one of those late friday afternoon items where about 25% of MPs are present.
The big problem with fan ownership is you cannot buy something that is ot for sale. If I own XYZ FC and you say you want to buy a chunk of it I can name my price, if you meet it I smile all the way to the bank, if you don't, well at least you tried.

I think you’ll find the PM was quit vocal about football and the super league, they could legislate that all English and Welsh professional football clubs have to have a 50+1 model.

My personal view is that whilst a nice dream, fan ownership can only thrive when underpinned with legislation? Otherwise it will be a real battle to even be competitive for most clubs. The real challenge would be how do you convert privately owned clubs to fan owned? I have absolutely no idea how it would be possible for the government or anyone else to negotiate their way over that legal hurdle? The only possibility I can think of would involve sort of Nationalising the football league as the government has done with other industries in the past? I haven’t the first clue about the practicalities of that, but on face value it seems incredibly expensive and messy?

But they won’t. It is different installing a system into the German league as it was at the time, where nearly all of the clubs were not for profit organisations, compared to wrestling control away from 90 odd private owners.

You can’t just introduce legislation stating that they all have to hand over 51% of their club to the fans. They would have to first of all put up with years upon years of legal challenges. There would be astronomical costs involved in wrestling away control.

As for the much touted German model. It’s riddled with loopholes that still favour the owners.

Fan ownership is not going to ever take on. It’s a pipe dream. The best the support can hope for is decent representation at board level. In my opinion, that is something KT has to concede to at some point. Not having that, is absolutely a slap in the face to the support. That representation should not solely be the Trust as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/25/supporters-may-own-german-football-clubs-but-the-wealthy-can-bend-the-rules

They could, or I hear Chequers needs renovating too and they are short of a few quid for the paint!

Are you addicted to V1agra?

You're going to have to explain that one to me ???

Woody 😂

I might be very wrong but Manny might be referring to ‘Woody V!agra’ a character who is on Facebook and/or Twitter! I personally don’t appreciate Twitter but use Facebook for communication purposes!

but did it make sense

I thought it might have been that but then thought it must have been something wittier. My mistake.

You didn’t get that so there’s no point in making it more complex.

I did get it but then dismissed it  ::). But good on you for making a funny. Well done.

Emmmm are you a Labour voter by chance they all seem to be wise after the event  :afro

Nope

Good man then I’m beginning to like you  ;D

 ;D

Hands Up! I'm a Labour voter :o Don't mean I agree with every thing the party says and doesn't mean I always disagree with the Tories.

Labour are a joke at the moment and Corbyn should never have been near the leadership. You don't follow your rebels!

The Party and the Unions can proudly point to their creation of the NHS, Welfare State, paid sick leave, paid holidays and workers pensions, I can only dream of a return to that type of thinking :(

As for the Way Forward for the Cobblers, I back the Brady bunch and new club structure. We have to try something new because the old ways have failed time and time again. How long we give it is a hard one but let's all try and be patient.

What a pity we didn't try that for the WNC & NNC  :(

Agree with your last paragraph - we have to hold our nerve with JB.

As to your hopes for a better future ...
What’s so special about you? Just embrace the self serving, lies, flag waving, forlock tugging world that we now live in and be thankful that our leader is such a fun person to go for a drink with. Leave all this fluffy thinking behind you my friend. As long as my betters tell me what to think I don’t have a problem - why do you?

Thank you, Now I know my place I feel calm ;) :)

Although I am a dyed in the wool Conservative and Unionist party supporter and member, I too don’t agree with everything they do either, the list of things you have mentioned are indeed things to be proud of.
I too back the Brady bunch, let’s hope they get backed by the board and are given enough time to get it right.

UTC

Amen... 8)

Sound :)