The Hotel End

The Hotel End => Cobblers Corner => Topic started by: Steve Massive Massey on June 28, 2021, 16:07:47 pm



Title: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Steve Massive Massey on June 28, 2021, 16:07:47 pm
There you go folks, knock yourselves out.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: tcobb on June 28, 2021, 16:54:12 pm
Maybe make it a poll with a simple yes or no.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 28, 2021, 17:12:21 pm
It would be a dark day for Northampton Town FC if it was, whoever was in charge of the club would have free reign to do whatever they wanted.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: singcobb on June 28, 2021, 17:28:39 pm
I don't think and certainly don't want it to lost as Manny says it is a good foil to have to help keep an eye on things. However I do think they have lost their direction, the support of the membership and a lot of credibilty.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 28, 2021, 17:37:38 pm
I don't think and certainly don't want it to lost as Manny says it is a good foil to have to help keep an eye on things. However I do think they have lost their direction, the support of the membership and a lot of credibilty.
Agree, they need to put up or shut up.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: cobblertone on June 28, 2021, 17:44:29 pm
It would be a dark day for Northampton Town FC if it was, whoever was in charge of the club would have free reign to do whatever they wanted.

Isnít that the situation we effectively have now?


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on June 28, 2021, 18:13:07 pm
Maybe make it a poll with a simple yes or no.

Its not a simple binary option though is it, certainly not when only one side of the story has been told.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: tcobb on June 28, 2021, 18:18:26 pm
Thats a fair comment,  how about, when the Trust respond with their side of the story,  a simple yes or no poll.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: BackOfTheNet on June 28, 2021, 18:27:27 pm
Whether we still want/need a Trust is probably a different question to whether the one we have is still alive and kicking.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: West Stand on June 28, 2021, 18:47:48 pm
The trust needs to offer something other than sniping. I read a lot of sniping but no solutions forthcoming. They seem to want a sugar daddy who will write off the loan, pay for the stand and write off the cost off that cost too. They need to be realistic, that's not going to happen.

Fair enough we can all see DB/KT are here to try and make money off the land, and are not fans. We are in the same situation as when the Cardozas were owners, in that respect. In an ideal world the owners would be fans, not businessman. Are there any fans who would have covered the losses (abeilt in the form of the loan) that have been incurred?

The loan is only going to be repaid through a land deal. It will only be written-off when that has been exhausted and DB/KT have given up. The club will never repay the loan from normal trading, unless we sell Chuk for £10million.

The club continues to make losses and while it does we have to rely on someone to cover those losses.

I just want the trust to be a bit more realistic about the current situation.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Wanderingteyn on June 28, 2021, 20:05:08 pm
The Trust needs to represent the fans they stand for, not for a few of their board members.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 28, 2021, 20:17:29 pm
Isnít that the situation we effectively have now?
No itís not, the Trust are making it very uncomfortable for KT, hence the ďopen daysĒ and that shameful letter that the ďsenior management ď manipulated the staff to write.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Teachers Pet on June 28, 2021, 20:23:15 pm
No itís not, the Trust are making it very uncomfortable for KT, hence the ďopen daysĒ and that shameful letter that the ďsenior management ď manipulated the staff to write.

Do you have proof of that?


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 28, 2021, 20:24:02 pm
Do you have proof of that?
Itís on the website and Iíve seen pictures of the open day  8)


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Teachers Pet on June 28, 2021, 20:29:54 pm
Itís on the website and Iíve seen pictures of the open day  8)

You know what I mean. The letter "senior management manipulated the staff to write" - Have you got proof of that?



Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on June 28, 2021, 20:31:16 pm
The Trust needs to represent the fans they stand for, not for a few of their board members.

The fans then need to get involved rather than wait for something to happen and then say that The Trust are going about it in the wrong way!

I have already posted this a few times, but in February and March surveys were carried out and 888 responses received, the topics of transparency and accountability, as well as ground improvements were covered in the 25 questions to the Club board.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 28, 2021, 20:41:35 pm
You know what I mean. The letter "senior management manipulated the staff to write" - Have you got proof of that?


The whole thing was done to discredit the trust I donít need proof to know that the staff didnít do it off their own back.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Teachers Pet on June 28, 2021, 20:45:09 pm
The whole thing was done to discredit the trust I donít need proof to know that the staff didnít do it off their own back.


No proof then, that's all I need to know.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 28, 2021, 20:52:13 pm
No proof then, that's all I need to know.
Glad to clear that up for you.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Winslow Lee on June 28, 2021, 20:58:56 pm
The trust needs to offer something other than sniping. I read a lot of sniping but no solutions forthcoming. They seem to want a sugar daddy who will write off the loan, pay for the stand and write off the cost off that cost too. They need to be realistic, that's not going to happen.

Fair enough we can all see DB/KT are here to try and make money off the land, and are not fans. We are in the same situation as when the Cardozas were owners, in that respect. In an ideal world the owners would be fans, not businessman. Are there any fans who would have covered the losses (abeilt in the form of the loan) that have been incurred?

The loan is only going to be repaid through a land deal. It will only be written-off when that has been exhausted and DB/KT have given up. The club will never repay the loan from normal trading, unless we sell Chuk for £10million.

The club continues to make losses and while it does we have to rely on someone to cover those losses.

I just want the trust to be a bit more realistic about the current situation.

+1


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on June 28, 2021, 21:15:35 pm
The whole thing was done to discredit the trust I donít need proof to know that the staff didnít do it off their own back.


You need something more than plain denial. Of course you ďcouldĒ be right. But saying youíre right isnít going to cut it. For me, this is where it goes wrong. People tailor the truth to their own views, with a total disregard for any evidence. Yes, it seems very unlikely that the staff released a statement without KT's knowledge, but two of them have out right promised me that is the case. So whilst Iím not defending them, I have nothing to offer back to suggest they are lying. NowÖ if you have something that you know, say it. Prove them as liars. If not, just say the same as me and any other mere mortal.. that you are not sure. Or that it is unlikely.

There has to be some context here. Nobody knows that there statement was designed in any way to polarise the support. If it was, in my opinion it was already a late addition to what already a hugely split support. Iím indifferent when it comes to KT. I find him pleasant enough face to face, but I have worked with enough of his type to spot the direction and aim of his ambition. I stated that days after he took over. In fact I predicted this course of events. When I was on the trust board, I was adamant that we should have took a stand then about a seat on the board. But one thing is for sure, KT would not have needed to have prompted them to back him loyally. Sammo loves the guy. Graham Carr thinks his a decent chap too. So itís not inconceivable that the staff have gone out on a limb for him. Their statement is not a complete endorsement of his methods or ideas. It is just them saying that he is not what he his being portrayed to be by some. The Trust has made them feel that way. It is not down to any of us to tell them they are not allowed to be fed up, and further insult them by portraying them as nothing more than puppets. I am not defending KT, when I say they genuinely seem to love working for him. And I think that really sticks in the throat of those who donít like him.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on June 28, 2021, 21:37:51 pm
The trust needs to offer something other than sniping. I read a lot of sniping but no solutions forthcoming. They seem to want a sugar daddy who will write off the loan, pay for the stand and write off the cost off that cost too. They need to be realistic, that's not going to happen.

Fair enough we can all see DB/KT are here to try and make money off the land, and are not fans. We are in the same situation as when the Cardozas were owners, in that respect. In an ideal world the owners would be fans, not businessman. Are there any fans who would have covered the losses (abeilt in the form of the loan) that have been incurred?

The loan is only going to be repaid through a land deal. It will only be written-off when that has been exhausted and DB/KT have given up. The club will never repay the loan from normal trading, unless we sell Chuk for £10million.

The club continues to make losses and while it does we have to rely on someone to cover those losses.

I just want the trust to be a bit more realistic about the current situation.

I agree with some of this post and at the end of the day we are where we are. The issue I would have though is the seeming acceptance that we have to run at a loss of between 500k and £1m a year and are then grateful we have a Director covering those losses.
Yes, we all call for more money to be spent on the squad, a better pitch, new seats blah blah, all of which cost money, but perhaps this is where fans need to be more realistic too.

Some clubs make a small profit, some clubs make much bigger losses than we do.....football in general needs a "reset" to stop this from being the norm.

In what other business though would people not question the running of an operation which was turning in losses year in year out?


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: BackOfTheNet on June 28, 2021, 21:39:51 pm
You need something more than plain denial. Of course you ďcouldĒ be right. But saying youíre right isnít going to cut it. For me, this is where it goes wrong. People tailor the truth to their own views, with a total disregard for any evidence. Yes, it seems very unlikely that the staff released a statement without KT's knowledge, but two of them have out right promised me that is the case. So whilst Iím not defending them, I have nothing to offer back to suggest they are lying. NowÖ if you have something that you know, say it. Prove them as liars. If not, just say the same as me and any other mere mortal.. that you are not sure. Or that it is unlikely.

There has to be some context here. Nobody knows that there statement was designed in any way to polarise the support. If it was, in my opinion it was already a late addition to what already a hugely split support. Iím indifferent when it comes to KT. I find him pleasant enough face to face, but I have worked with enough of his type to spot the direction and aim of his ambition. I stated that days after he took over. In fact I predicted this course of events. When I was on the trust board, I was adamant that we should have took a stand then about a seat on the board. But one thing is for sure, KT would not have needed to have prompted them to back him loyally. Sammo loves the guy. Graham Carr thinks his a decent chap too. So itís not inconceivable that the staff have gone out on a limb for him. Their statement is not a complete endorsement of his methods or ideas. It is just them saying that he is not what he his being portrayed to be by some. The Trust has made them feel that way. It is not down to any of us to tell them they are not allowed to be fed up, and further insult them by portraying them as nothing more than puppets. I am not defending KT, when I say they genuinely seem to love working for him. And I think that really sticks in the throat of those who donít like him.

Good post, Tel.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 28, 2021, 22:01:20 pm
You need something more than plain denial. Of course you ďcouldĒ be right. But saying youíre right isnít going to cut it. For me, this is where it goes wrong. People tailor the truth to their own views, with a total disregard for any evidence. Yes, it seems very unlikely that the staff released a statement without KT's knowledge, but two of them have out right promised me that is the case. So whilst Iím not defending them, I have nothing to offer back to suggest they are lying. NowÖ if you have something that you know, say it. Prove them as liars. If not, just say the same as me and any other mere mortal.. that you are not sure. Or that it is unlikely.

There has to be some context here. Nobody knows that there statement was designed in any way to polarise the support. If it was, in my opinion it was already a late addition to what already a hugely split support. Iím indifferent when it comes to KT. I find him pleasant enough face to face, but I have worked with enough of his type to spot the direction and aim of his ambition. I stated that days after he took over. In fact I predicted this course of events. When I was on the trust board, I was adamant that we should have took a stand then about a seat on the board. But one thing is for sure, KT would not have needed to have prompted them to back him loyally. Sammo loves the guy. Graham Carr thinks his a decent chap too. So itís not inconceivable that the staff have gone out on a limb for him. Their statement is not a complete endorsement of his methods or ideas. It is just them saying that he is not what he his being portrayed to be by some. The Trust has made them feel that way. It is not down to any of us to tell them they are not allowed to be fed up, and further insult them by portraying them as nothing more than puppets. I am not defending KT, when I say they genuinely seem to love working for him. And I think that really sticks in the throat of those who donít like him.
When people tell me things in confidence they stay that way, as I said before you seem very taken with KT and constantly caveat your sentences with ďIím not defending KT,Ē your in denial, itís OK if you like him.
I not having a go at the club staff BTW think they do a good job.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Teachers Pet on June 28, 2021, 22:20:36 pm
When people tell me things in confidence they stay that way, as I said before you seem very taken with KT and constantly caveat your sentences with ďIím not defending KT,Ē your in denial, itís OK if you like him.
I not having a go at the club staff BTW think they do a good job.

Didn't you say earlier that "you don't need proof" and now you say you've been told things "in confidence". I'm confused, surely if you've been told things in confidence you then have the proof  ???


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 28, 2021, 22:34:54 pm
Didn't you say earlier that "you don't need proof" and now you say you've been told things "in confidence". I'm confused, surely if you've been told things in confidence you then have the proof  ???
Proof would need to be irrefutable, Iíd have needed to be there or CCTV evidence, just because someone tells me something doesnít make it proof.
Itís someoneís word against someone elseís.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Teachers Pet on June 28, 2021, 22:38:45 pm
Proof would need to be irrefutable, Iíd have needed to be there or CCTV evidence, just because someone tells me something doesnít make it proof.
Itís someoneís word against someone elseís.

That's true mate. I'll leave it there now  ;)


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 28, 2021, 23:29:10 pm
That's true mate. I'll leave it there now  ;)
👍👍


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on June 28, 2021, 23:32:12 pm
Proof would need to be irrefutable, Iíd have needed to be there or CCTV evidence, just because someone tells me something doesnít make it proof.
Itís someoneís word against someone elseís.
For me Manny there is real dilemma with this. If the club staff were coerced into this or it was not exactly as it says on the tin it would be a pointless exercise as it would come out and fairly rapidly. I also donít think it was necessary for them to try to divide the fan base over the Trust because I donít think it could be much worse given the conversations Iíve had, and Iím sure theyíve had similar.
On the other hand there is absolutely no way anyone in our business would post something as provocative as this on our website without authorisation. If they did it would be the first and last time. Letís not forget that what ever your view the Trust have had and may continue to have the ear of individuals within the council, so it has the potential to stir things up and influence to some extent. Whilst you must take people at their word and I have no reason or evidence to doubt them, I find it inconceivable that this would have taken place without prior knowledge or consent. Thatís not to say it didnít happen but if true and I were KT and DB I am wondering what they make of it? Put it this way, if our business were under attack and people were spreading malicious rumours about that were affecting moral of the staff and by definition their well being and possibly mental health then we would deal with it very differently and it certainly wouldnít end or even start with an open letter on our website, hence my earlier observations. I genuinely donít know what to think?


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Steve Massive Massey on June 29, 2021, 05:48:11 am
I don't personally know anyone on the Trust, I have not been involved and too far away, I can only provide an outsiders perspective away from the politics shall we say.

I met with Brian Lomax as a supporter many times and in no way would I criticise anyone trying to do the best for this club, especially those involved with the Trust however its clear there are now divisions between the club owners, trust, staff and supporters, which was absolutely not the intention.

To be viable and to have any real impact at the club the Trust needs to be well organised, well run but above all it needs financial clout, it needs to create money. Along with supporter backing a few entrepreneurs and forward thinking business minded people are needed but I'm not sure they are there.

Without money, and I don't mean to be rude the Trust is as effective in bringing change as a few pink haired lesbians chained to railings in Parliament Square, just a bit of noise. Frankly I'm staggered that in all this time the limit to their ambition is car boots and raffles, run correctly they could be offering money towards stadium projects or even helping finance players by now. Crucially this would bring them to the table when the future of the club is under discussion, exactly where they want to be.

I don't deny KT anything from this land as he is the only one currently wishing to develop it and ultimately to untangle the mess created by the council and Cardoza combined. He owns us, pays the wages and is doing what he can with limited wriggle room to ensure their funding is not wasted.

The Trust need to be more professional, dynamic, show ambition, create harmony and work with the owners not cause division or they really are just the beardies playing crib in the corner, sorry.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: cobblertone on June 29, 2021, 09:46:52 am
For me Manny there is real dilemma with this. If the club staff were coerced into this or it was not exactly as it says on the tin it would be a pointless exercise as it would come out and fairly rapidly. I also donít think it was necessary for them to try to divide the fan base over the Trust because I donít think it could be much worse given the conversations Iíve had, and Iím sure theyíve had similar.
On the other hand there is absolutely no way anyone in our business would post something as provocative as this on our website without authorisation. If they did it would be the first and last time. Letís not forget that what ever your view the Trust have had and may continue to have the ear of individuals within the council, so it has the potential to stir things up and influence to some extent. Whilst you must take people at their word and I have no reason or evidence to doubt them, I find it inconceivable that this would have taken place without prior knowledge or consent. Thatís not to say it didnít happen but if true and I were KT and DB I am wondering what they make of it? Put it this way, if our business were under attack and people were spreading malicious rumours about that were affecting moral of the staff and by definition their well being and possibly mental health then we would deal with it very differently and it certainly wouldnít end or even start with an open letter on our website, hence my earlier observations. I genuinely donít know what to think?

I think it is easy to try and compare this scenario to some large scale corporation where red tape would prevent a similar action, especially on the official website.
We saw the recent Brewdog publication on social media (from ex employees) which is extremely damaging for them and investors getting very twitchy. True, slightly different as that was out of their control.
Maybe people are getting a little wrapped up in the process of how it appeared. True, we don't know but....

- The staff (including senior members) co-ordinate the letter.
- They go to KT and vent their grievances, along with support for him personally and ask for his blessing to publish it, which he clearly did or there'll be some staff in trouble.

I think some maybe be alluding (but not actually saying) that KT effectively wrote the letter (or coerced them to write it) and got his staff to sign it!
The timing is a tad off considering events of last week but it could just be it needed the Trust to publicly (and effectively) severe ties with the club for the staff to come out fighting on some of the treatment they have read about or maybe suffered directly.
 


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Gen.Disorda on June 29, 2021, 09:56:25 am
Without money, and I don't mean to be rude the Trust is as effective in bringing change as a few pink haired lesbians chained to railings in Parliament Square, just a bit of noise. Frankly I'm staggered that in all this time the limit to their ambition is car boots and raffles, run correctly they could be offering money towards stadium projects or even helping finance players by now. Crucially this would bring them to the table when the future of the club is under discussion, exactly where they want to be.

Is the New hotel end project being run by the trust? it would be pretty damning if something like that had chosen to circumvent the trust as by its nature it should be the logical group to spearhead an initiative like that.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Battery Man on June 29, 2021, 10:04:25 am
I agree with some of this post and at the end of the day we are where we are. The issue I would have though is the seeming acceptance that we have to run at a loss of between 500k and £1m a year and are then grateful we have a Director covering those losses.
Yes, we all call for more money to be spent on the squad, a better pitch, new seats blah blah, all of which cost money, but perhaps this is where fans need to be more realistic too.

Some clubs make a small profit, some clubs make much bigger losses than we do.....football in general needs a "reset" to stop this from being the norm.

In what other business though would people not question the running of an operation which was turning in losses year in year out?

GPC really good post.

As for the question is the Trust lost - it appears from the outside that they are coming at KT & DB with something of an agenda from some parts of the board and want him out. Whether this is true or not I don't know but I do think they need a bit of a reset because after the staff letter I think a larger number of fans are going against them.

I do think we need a trust, I think every club does. However, that Trust needs to be able to work with the fan base and the clubs board and have a good a working relationship with the board as possible. Yes if they no of wrongdoing it must be highlighted to its members and also all other fans as early as possible. Unfortunately it is a very fine line a trust has to walk, as alienating the Club does not help them to be close enough to see if things are going wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong but the club was losing similar amounts when Cardoza was in charge so not much has changed there and maybe this is somewhere a trust working closely with the club can help, I have seen posts about a barrel of ale been sold and maybe this isn't too far from where we should be. I remember going into the Exeter Trust bar numerous times and that did very well and put money into the clubs coffers, things like that could reduce our losses as a club.

With KT and DB, yes I believe they are in it to make money from the land, why else would they be here. This is not necessarily a bad thing and as long as the trust is working closely with them then there will be more chances that some of the money from this land will filter its way to the club. I also agree they should have had the stand done as promised. It looks like maybe the New Hotel End is pushing them in this direction more now as it is since they came out with some ideas that we got the open day from the club.

So we as fans really need a club and a trust pulling in the same direction, if there are personality clashes then it would have to be the trust who would need to change those personalities as the club wont. The caveat on all of this being that if the trust are aware of wrongdoing they have to put it out there as fans need to know. The last thing we would want is another McRitchie or Cardoza situation.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on June 29, 2021, 10:08:43 am
Similarly good post Battery ManÖ.lots in there for people to think about.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Ragdoll Cobbler on June 29, 2021, 10:10:13 am
Is the New hotel end project being run by the trust? it would be pretty damning if something like that had chosen to circumvent the trust as by its nature it should be the logical group to spearhead an initiative like that.

Tom Reed is one of the main "backers"

The same Tom Reed who recently tweeted the infamous Brian Lomax quote regarding not trusting "two-bit conmen"

Not the best idea if your looking for support from the current owners!


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on June 29, 2021, 10:21:34 am
Trust Statement ref the Staff Letter

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/response-to-the-open-letter-from-northampton-town-fc?fbclid=IwAR1yG5xf1gS-ITjec5WKK5Nwj6WWPCOpnkAVeuwESuqml03sr99XB2fkzns


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: woody84 on June 29, 2021, 10:24:11 am
https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/response-to-the-open-letter-from-northampton-town-fc

Credit where it is due, I think that is a very good reply from the Trust.
I sincerely hope that all parties can now draw a line under this and work together to find a common ground which can be positive.
The Trust rightly need to hold the owners to account and the Club need to engage with them in a more positive way. I think one thing everyone seems to agree on is that neither side have gone about this the right way.



Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: cobblertone on June 29, 2021, 10:51:29 am
Trust Statement ref the Staff Letter

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/response-to-the-open-letter-from-northampton-town-fc?fbclid=IwAR1yG5xf1gS-ITjec5WKK5Nwj6WWPCOpnkAVeuwESuqml03sr99XB2fkzns

Good response.
It is always easy from the outside to pick up on something....the only thing missing is the offer to withdraw the membership of any members who are found to have publicly made any derogative comments as highlighted in the staffs grievance. It comes back to the 'two hats' situation but well within your rights to black ball Trust members who post personal abuse, if you are aware of it of course, although this may reduce your membership by quite a bit.  ;D


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: woody84 on June 29, 2021, 11:16:44 am
That's difficult though as members of the Trust need to be free to have their own opinions, and as long as they don't cross any legal lines should continue to do so. People shouldn't be banned for having an opinion you don't like.
The same applies to a certain extent to the Trust board members as unless its from an official account, or is stated as being a Trust statement it is still just their opinion. Its a much more difficult situation though as there is a link back to the board and could be perceived in the wrong way, as has happened in the past.
Does the Trust have a social media policy for board members? If yes, might be worth reviewing, if not I suggest you write one.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: random on June 29, 2021, 11:37:44 am
The reply was not as explosive as I was expecting  ;D

What was said is pretty obvious, I would hope that the staff and supporters would already know what was said, although it appears many have forgotten.

The fact as the statement says, the Trust actually paid, in cash, staff wages to stop them leaving on the understanding KT would return the funds. (its not about the fans happy to pay wages from their donations - it is that KT failed (again) in his verbal agreements.)

The Trust does have an agenda - i think now it has at least two.

1. Be better prepared if and when the Cardoza situation arises again

2. Hold KT to account and have him inform us fans of what is happening at our club and whether we are actually ever going to move forward under their ownership

Sorry but the more I hear about these timelines and events the more of question KT's integrity. Again its not that I am anti-KT, I just want an owner who is interested in making NTFC the best it can be, given the resources available.


 


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: BackOfTheNet on June 29, 2021, 11:38:06 am
It's an adequate response but I think they've missed out two key points:

  • The lack of an apology. It doesn't have to be a gushing recanting of everything they've ever said or done, but a simple "we are sorry if our actions have made the club staff feel this way. It was never our intent to do so and if our words or actions have been misinterpreted then obviously we apologise for this."
  • The denial of "having an agenda" isn't enough. Look at the vast amount of comments from numerous people on here, on Twitter, on the club's Facebook page, various fan Facebook pages, even the Trust's own Facebook page, not to mention the letter from the staff itself - for some reason, an awful lot of people believe that the Trust DO have an agenda around fan ownership. This was the perfect opportunity to not only deny it (which they've done) but also to acknowledge that they will be working hard to make sure this was made clear in future communications as they have clearly failed to do so in the past.

I do think the Trust (or aspects of the Trust) lack the ability to be self-critical. If they showed a modicum of self-awareness in these things, I think there would be far few of us willing to be critical of the Trust as an entity.

Regardless of any denials, while it may not be the official party line, I still believe that there are elements within the Trust who personally are keen on fan ownership, and I think those individuals are undermining the efforts of everyone else, who as I've said on many occasions, I'm sure are working hard and with the best intentions.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: FezNTFC on June 29, 2021, 11:45:26 am
As a former board member of the Trust here's my two penneth worth.

I think the club should have just answered the 25 questions in writing sent to them by the Trust - even if they didn't like a couple of them. A few questions were a bit 'loaded' so to speak but the owners should have thick enough skin to deal with that. This is also a compromise situation given the previous relationship breakdown, it's not going to be perfect. I do feel the majority of questions were fair to ask, and the cynic in me does question why they couldn't feel they could provide written answers. I don't know exactly why I think it, but it just doesn't sit right. If everything Kelvin has said about the East Stand at the open day comes to fruition then happy days, but I will only really believe it when I see it.

Despite them not getting the written answers, I personally would have still liked the Trust to take up the option of the open Zoom call and I would have just asked them the most pertinent of the 25 questions there. It would still have been answers on the record and we'd know more about what he was/wasn't willing to talk about. I'd like to know more about the thought process behind turning that down.

The above is a classic example of both sides being a bit stubborn - but I have to say the Trust seem to be getting the brunt of the criticism when I would say the situation was of equal making between the club and the Trust.

Unfortunately the difficulty here is that supporters also hold very stubborn views on the Trust that they never seem to let go. Having used to do comms for them back in the day I knew people who hated the Trust because of stuff that was done in the 90s when I was still in nappies and despite it being an entirely new board. The image now, whether fair or not, is that the Trust is anti-club and pro fan ownership. People nowadays more than ever seem more unwilling to ever change their mind, and they're going to have to work very hard to rectify that.

Onto the open letter from staff. Whatever your views are of KT on playing budgets, investments, the East Stand, 5USport ect, it cannot be denied that he is very clearly a good operator. If you speak to any staff member they have nothing but praise for him and they think he treats them well. In that respect, he's clearly a good owner. So I don't feel that it's likely that the club board put the staff up to doing this.

That said I would have liked to have seen more evidence that this anti-club rhetoric is rife in the whole Trust board rather than it being a couple of individuals acting of their own accord, which is certainly the impression I get though I'm happy to be proved wrong. Regardless of whether they like it or not, Trust board members are entitled to their own view - it doesn't mean that their views are that of the Trust board. I have never seen a Trust statement criticise the staff, so I also feel that if indeed it is just a couple of the board that made those posts then the open letter is a bit harsh on a number of people who I know are good people with the club at heart and have now been tarred with a particular brush. That said, the quoted posts in the open letter seemed very crass, and I would hope Trust board members are being advised on their use of social media.

With regards to the future - it's absolutely imperative that this club has a healthy supporters' trust. It's the body that people turn too, it's the original supporters' trust and we should be proud of it. It's only as healthy as its membership though.

There are as usual good ideas on here on how the Trust can be driven forward, but it requires people to do the work - and as a fanbase we are too happy to leave the same 10-12 people ticking the Trust over until the next crisis. I hope that some of the people who are coming up with these great ideas go to the Trust and offer their help, it would be a great way to start.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: BackOfTheNet on June 29, 2021, 11:48:27 am
As a former board member of the Trust here's my two penneth worth.

I think the club should have just answered the 25 questions in writing sent to them by the Trust - even if they didn't like a couple of them. A few questions were a bit 'loaded' so to speak but the owners should have thick enough skin to deal with that. This is also a compromise situation given the previous relationship breakdown, it's not going to be perfect. I do feel the majority of questions were fair to ask, and the cynic in me does question why they couldn't feel they could provide written answers. I don't know exactly why I think it, but it just doesn't sit right. If everything Kelvin has said about the East Stand at the open day comes to fruition then happy days, but I will only really believe it when I see it.

Despite them not getting the written answers, I personally would have still liked the Trust to take up the option of the open Zoom call and I would have just asked them the most pertinent of the 25 questions there. It would still have been answers on the record and we'd know more about what he was/wasn't willing to talk about. I'd like to know more about the thought process behind turning that down.

The above is a classic example of both sides being a bit stubborn - but I have to say the Trust seem to be getting the brunt of the criticism when I would say the situation was of equal making between the club and the Trust.

Unfortunately the difficulty here is that supporters also hold very stubborn views on the Trust that they never seem to let go. Having used to do comms for them back in the day I knew people who hated the Trust because of stuff that was done in the 90s when I was still in nappies and despite it being an entirely new board. The image now, whether fair or not, is that the Trust is anti-club and pro fan ownership. People nowadays more than ever seem more unwilling to ever change their mind, and they're going to have to work very hard to rectify that.

Onto the open letter from staff. Whatever your views are of KT on playing budgets, investments, the East Stand, 5USport ect, it cannot be denied that he is very clearly a good operator. If you speak to any staff member they have nothing but praise for him and they think he treats them well. In that respect, he's clearly a good owner. So I don't feel that it's likely that the club board put the staff up to doing this.

That said I would have liked to have seen more evidence that this anti-club rhetoric is rife in the whole Trust board rather than it being a couple of individuals acting of their own accord, which is certainly the impression I get though I'm happy to be proved wrong. Regardless of whether they like it or not, Trust board members are entitled to their own view - it doesn't mean that their views are that of the Trust board. I have never seen a Trust statement criticise the staff, so I also feel that if indeed it is just a couple of the board that made those posts then the open letter is a bit harsh on a number of people who I know are good people with the club at heart and have now been tarred with a particular brush. That said, the quoted posts in the open letter seemed very crass, and I would hope Trust board members are being advised on their use of social media.

With regards to the future - it's absolutely imperative that this club has a healthy supporters' trust. It's the body that people turn too, it's the original supporters' trust and we should be proud of it. It's only as healthy as its membership though.

There are as usual good ideas on here on how the Trust can be driven forward, but it requires people to do the work - and as a fanbase we are too happy to leave the same 10-12 people ticking the Trust over until the next crisis. I hope that some of the people who are coming up with these great ideas go to the Trust and offer their help, it would be a great way to start.

A good, balanced post Fez.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: SadOldGit on June 29, 2021, 12:36:06 pm
Tasty reply from the Trust, well done.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: cobblerwatch on June 29, 2021, 12:45:29 pm
A fairly bland reply but in my opinion absolutely correct so as not to inflame further a slightly ridiculous situation that could do lasting damage to the club and a potentially divided fanbase - perhaps also a cue for some of us on here to take a less polarised view.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: DrillingCobbler on June 29, 2021, 12:52:33 pm
I was a board member for 5 years ago, until around 2-3 months ago. The reasons why I left will remain private and I wont get embroiled in the politics. Quite simply, I cannot be assed!

Essentially I could see this fall out coming from a mile away, I do have quite strong views as to why it has happened. I work with the club on projects with my business and quite frankly, I did not want my own personal views bundled in with a collective view point (Trust). There are a number of people involved with the trust and its always going to be very challenging to find a common view point, back in the DC days (end of) it was easy but I think its fair to say its subjective as things stand.

Backofthenet touches on a point that I felt very strongly about for a long while. In that some individual trust directors and associates would post on social media their own view points and often they would then directly be associated with the Trusts collective viewpoint. This fall out has in my opinion, mainly been caused by that. Some will agree, some will disagree with this. But that's my own personal opinion. I have refrained for a long time now not to share my personal views on off the pitch topics either on here or on social media because I felt it would put the Trust in a difficult position. I will continue that, because I have the upmost respect for my ex trust colleagues and also the staff I work with at the football club. Many of these view points are subjective and will generate debate, often negative. So essentially for the Trust and Club to work together effectively they need to keep their opinions on each other private until a point if damming evidence of wrong doing surfaces...this of course works both ways.

Personally, until this stops I think the divide will widen. Ultimately the guys on the Trust are all passionate and committed supporters, and work hard to hold the club to account. However, the way some of their social media (in particular) posts come across often stirs things up unnecessarily. Again, in my opinion. Its a very difficult balance to find, stopping freedom of speech is a big negative, however, in the role of a trust director I believe there comes a point where you need to refrain yourself from publicly engaging in topics that are very sensitive relating to the football club.

Along the way, so much has been wrongly interpreted, been read out of context etc. Look at footballers themselves, and other 'celebrities'. Social media is great for many reasons but it has its downfalls. I also believe that the Trust should now take firm action and anyone who represents it should be far more careful as to what they tweet, put on facebook, post on here etc. Sadly or not, it goes with the territory.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: FezNTFC on June 29, 2021, 13:08:30 pm
I was a board member for 5 years ago, until around 2-3 months ago. The reasons why I left will remain private and I wont get embroiled in the politics. Quite simply, I cannot be assed!

Essentially I could see this fall out coming from a mile away, I do have quite strong views as to why it has happened. I work with the club on projects with my business and quite frankly, I did not want my own personal views bundled in with a collective view point (Trust). There are a number of people involved with the trust and its always going to be very challenging to find a common view point, back in the DC days (end of) it was easy but I think its fair to say its subjective as things stand.

Backofthenet touches on a point that I felt very strongly about for a long while. In that some individual trust directors and associates would post on social media their own view points and often they would then directly be associated with the Trusts collective viewpoint. This fall out has in my opinion, mainly been caused by that. Some will agree, some will disagree with this. But that's my own personal opinion. I have refrained for a long time now not to share my personal views on off the pitch topics either on here or on social media because I felt it would put the Trust in a difficult position. I will continue that, because I have the upmost respect for my ex trust colleagues and also the staff I work with at the football club. Many of these view points are subjective and will generate debate, often negative. So essentially for the Trust and Club to work together effectively they need to keep their opinions on each other private until a point if damming evidence of wrong doing surfaces...this of course works both ways.

Personally, until this stops I think the divide will widen. Ultimately the guys on the Trust are all passionate and committed supporters, and work hard to hold the club to account. However, the way some of their social media (in particular) posts come across often stirs things up unnecessarily. Again, in my opinion. Its a very difficult balance to find, stopping freedom of speech is a big negative, however, in the role of a trust director I believe there comes a point where you need to refrain yourself from publicly engaging in topics that are very sensitive relating to the football club.

Along the way, so much has been wrongly interpreted, been read out of context etc. Look at footballers themselves, and other 'celebrities'. Social media is great for many reasons but it has its downfalls. I also believe that the Trust should now take firm action and anyone who represents it should be far more careful as to what they tweet, put on facebook, post on here etc. Sadly or not, it goes with the territory.

Sorry to hear you've left the board Drilling. Those points about social media are very pertinent. I know from my own experience that it was such a difficult balancing act between trying to correct assertions about the Trust when they are blatantly incorrect but also trying not to come across as 'holier than though' or appear that you feel you are immune from fair criticism.

I think it would help if everyone on all sides stopped and calmed down a bit, hopefully that Trust response will achieve that as I think it was pretty well measured. Like a lot of things at the moment it seems like you have to pick a camp and stick with it to the bitter end. In reality it's more complex than that.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: pattcobb on June 29, 2021, 13:13:31 pm


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on June 29, 2021, 14:25:27 pm
It's an adequate response but I think they've missed out two key points:

  • The lack of an apology. It doesn't have to be a gushing recanting of everything they've ever said or done, but a simple "we are sorry if our actions have made the club staff feel this way. It was never our intent to do so and if our words or actions have been misinterpreted then obviously we apologise for this."
  • The denial of "having an agenda" isn't enough. Look at the vast amount of comments from numerous people on here, on Twitter, on the club's Facebook page, various fan Facebook pages, even the Trust's own Facebook page, not to mention the letter from the staff itself - for some reason, an awful lot of people believe that the Trust DO have an agenda around fan ownership. This was the perfect opportunity to not only deny it (which they've done) but also to acknowledge that they will be working hard to make sure this was made clear in future communications as they have clearly failed to do so in the past.

I do think the Trust (or aspects of the Trust) lack the ability to be self-critical. If they showed a modicum of self-awareness in these things, I think there would be far few of us willing to be critical of the Trust as an entity.

Regardless of any denials, while it may not be the official party line, I still believe that there are elements within the Trust who personally are keen on fan ownership, and I think those individuals are undermining the efforts of everyone else, who as I've said on many occasions, I'm sure are working hard and with the best intentions.

Agree...


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: cobblertone on June 29, 2021, 14:32:01 pm
Nice insights from Fez and Drilling.
I think it is clearly a complex backdrop and the musings on here probably mean nothing in the scale of things. It does appear that some of the forthright opinions come from either bitter (and maybe envious) ex-Trust members, non-Trust members, or the polarized masses on either side. The debate on the responsibilities of individuals and their personal views clashing is definitely interesting. Surely anyone of real influence on the Trust shouldn't be posting 'personal' comments, certainly not abuse and even opposing views to the Trust on public forums. That is pretty much common sense and only going to lead to issues for any organisation. Granted, it is impossible (and not right) to try and filter the common Trust member and we all read the unfiltered bile on social media every day.
Hopefully the club will provide the specific instances and those people can either reflect and take a look at their words and maybe apologise if appropriate, before redeveloping a working relationship.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 29, 2021, 14:37:44 pm
Nice insights from Fez and Drilling.
I think it is clearly a complex backdrop and the musings on here probably mean nothing in the scale of things. It does appear that some of the forthright opinions come from either bitter (and maybe envious) ex-Trust members, non-Trust members, or the polarized masses on either side. The debate on the responsibilities of individuals and their personal views clashing is definitely interesting. Surely anyone of real influence on the Trust shouldn't be posting 'personal' comments, certainly not abuse and even opposing views to the Trust on public forums. That falls beneath That is pretty much common sense and only going to lead to issues for any organisation. Granted, it is impossible (and not right) to try and filter the common Trust member and we all read the unfiltered bile on social media every day.
Hopefully the club will provide the specific instances and those people can either reflect and take a look at their words and maybe apologise if appropriate, before redeveloping a working relationship.
Completely agree and apologies should be offered if appropriate.
However this has played into KTs playbook of spin, not sure how much ice it will cut with the council though, as I said previously I wouldnít trust him as far  as I could throw him.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: cobblerwatch on June 29, 2021, 14:51:09 pm
Completely agree and apologies should be offered if appropriate.
However this has played into KTs playbook of spin, not sure how much ice it will cut with the council though, as I said previously I wouldnít trust him as far  as I could throw him.

MW - obviously you are your own man with your own opinions but it seems your posts of late start with a consolatory tone but always end with a However and subsequently have a dig at KT - we do know your views on this - donít you think there is perhaps a case to draw breath keeping ones powder dry until a point later in the year if nothing has happened?


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Risdene on June 29, 2021, 15:30:18 pm
MW - obviously you are your own man with your own opinions but it seems your posts of late start with a consolatory tone but always end with a However and subsequently have a dig at KT - we do know your views on this - donít you think there is perhaps a case to draw breath keeping ones powder dry until a point later in the year if nothing has happened?
Totally agree.

I am sure KT takes no notice of MW and his repetative criticisms, especially his statements that the land is worth a laughable £100 million, with no proof, as usual!!!

Speaking to a couple of local Land Agents they think hie opinion is 'up with the fairies'.

Try using facts Manwork!


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on June 29, 2021, 18:14:03 pm
When people tell me things in confidence they stay that way, as I said before you seem very taken with KT and constantly caveat your sentences with ďIím not defending KT,Ē your in denial, itís OK if you like him.
I not having a go at the club staff BTW think they do a good job.

A lot of us get told things in confidence. My remarks were specifically around the club staff though. As I said, itís all well and good finding it difficult to believe that they did it without KT knowing, even to me. But to sell as a fact, as you did is wrong. You simply don't know the truth about a lot of things. Until you do, do as I and others do and keep your counsel. It is not like you at all. And is an unwelcome recent thing in your posts.

As for you childish Trust like snipe about me and KT. Youíll have to buck your current trend and post evidence of that. Or join the long line of others, who havenít managed it yet. I will be more than happy to jump on the bandwagon once I see some evidence of the infamous ďoil and truthĒ or your much heralded big news. In the meantime, I'm still on the fence  ;D ;D


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on June 29, 2021, 19:14:57 pm
Do you know what, from the recent posts you could interpret that there is some discord within the board of the Trust, you could interpret that some are more powerful than others. Alternatively you could interpret that there is a collective hidden agenda, the list is endless. To repetitively bang the same drum, if you have the mandate of the majority of the membership and support base all of this goes away, all of it. Donít cover this with a veneer of its a 2 way street, take the initiative and get it. Sorry but for me itís that simple. That aside, the Trust must continue, IMO its an organisation to be proud of thatís temporarily lost its way a bit.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 29, 2021, 19:27:18 pm
A lot of us get told things in confidence. My remarks were specifically around the club staff though. As I said, itís all well and good finding it difficult to believe that they did it without KT knowing, even to me. But to sell as a fact, as you did is wrong. You simply don't know the truth about a lot of things. Until you do, do as I and others do and keep your counsel. It is not like you at all. And is an unwelcome recent thing in your posts.

As for you childish Trust like snipe about me and KT. Youíll have to buck your current trend and post evidence of that. Or join the long line of others, who havenít managed it yet. I will be more than happy to jump on the bandwagon once I see some evidence of the infamous ďoil and truthĒ or your much heralded big news. In the meantime, I'm still on the fence  ;D ;D
Iím not getting the splinters out 😀


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Manwork04 on June 29, 2021, 19:30:15 pm
MW - obviously you are your own man with your own opinions but it seems your posts of late start with a consolatory tone but always end with a However and subsequently have a dig at KT - we do know your views on this - donít you think there is perhaps a case to draw breath keeping ones powder dry until a point later in the year if nothing has happened?
Iím actually looking at the bigger picture, whatís happening with the surplus cash after loans have been paid back.
I take your point about waiting.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: EB Claret on June 29, 2021, 19:54:24 pm
Looking from the outside it appears as though there is conflict within the Trust. Several long term board members seem to have stood down, why is this? A power struggle? A conflict of interest? or a feeling of impotence, that the Trust is now on the margins with very little influence?

If it is the latter that's sad, because if the Club as a whole is to move forward on and off the pitch, it needs the Owners, Management, Staff, Players, Trust and wider support base to have a sense of unity. We certainly had that briefly during the 2015/16 season, all of us felt unbeatable. That's what positive thought can achieve, arguing will get us nowhere.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: singcobb on June 29, 2021, 20:09:38 pm
Do you know what, from the recent posts you could interpret that there is some discord within the board of the Trust, you could interpret that some are more powerful than others. Alternatively you could interpret that there is a collective hidden agenda, the list is endless. To repetitively bang the same drum, if you have the mandate of the majority of the membership and support base all of this goes away, all of it. Don’t cover this with a veneer of its a 2 way street, take the initiative and get it. Sorry but for me it’s that simple. That aside, the Trust must continue, IMO its an organisation to be proud of that’s temporarily lost its way a bit.

I think that sums it up very well. Until such time as the Trust board proactively poll the membership on important issues before acting it will always seem that the board has it's own agenda that it does not wish to share.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on June 29, 2021, 20:19:31 pm
I have posted these before, and I will again.....

Trust members polled on issues.....(February 2021)

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/trust-members-vote-on-football-conversation-survey


Wider Northampton football public polled on the same issues....(March 2021)

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/public-vote-backs-football-reform


888 respondents in total...... is this not "proactively polling"?


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on June 29, 2021, 23:11:39 pm
I have posted these before, and I will again.....

Trust members polled on issues.....(February 2021)

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/trust-members-vote-on-football-conversation-survey


Wider Northampton football public polled on the same issues....(March 2021)

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/public-vote-backs-football-reform


888 respondents in total...... is this not "proactively polling"?

Youíve had plenty of opinions on this before ad well mateÖ

In terms of this topic. Anyone on either side of the fence who doesnít take a serious look at their conduct, and lack of insight into what supporters want, is lost.

If nothing else comes out of this mess, at the very least both sides should look at why neither of them have even got near to catching the real feelings of the support.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on June 30, 2021, 09:48:07 am
I have posted these before, and I will again.....

Trust members polled on issues.....(February 2021)

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/trust-members-vote-on-football-conversation-survey


Wider Northampton football public polled on the same issues....(March 2021)

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/public-vote-backs-football-reform


888 respondents in total...... is this not "proactively polling"?

To be honest and I have also commented on these before, they were polls of questions that were loaded in such a way to provide the answers that the compiler(s) wanted.  Unfortunately, those results are now being quoted as the mandate that those on The Trust Board are going forward with.


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: pattcobb on June 30, 2021, 11:01:37 am
Youíve had plenty of opinions on this before ad well mateÖ

In terms of this topic. Anyone on either side of the fence who doesnít take a serious look at their conduct, and lack of insight into what supporters want, is lost.

If nothing else comes out of this mess, at the very least both sides should look at why neither of them have even got near to catching the real feelings of the support.

I reckon lockdown has caused too many people to have too much time on their hands.
ffs bang the two heads together (or is it now three heads with the New Hotel End wading in with a statement?) and get on with it.

I want a team worth watching - we will see
I want a decent chairman - we have don't we?
I want a supporters body that represents all it's members - we have  that don't we ?
I want to support an exciting fan led project - yes again TNHE


Title: Re: The Trust, is it lost?
Post by: Wanderingteyn on June 30, 2021, 12:44:37 pm
To be honest and I have also commented on these before, they were polls of questions that were loaded in such a way to provide the answers that the compiler(s) wanted.

Nail on the head.

A survey should be entirely neutral and the questions should not be leading.