The Hotel End

The Hotel End => Cobblers Corner => Topic started by: Zen Master on July 03, 2021, 11:48:47 am



Title: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on July 03, 2021, 11:48:47 am
Another statement by the trust on club finances, 5USPORT money etc.

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/concerns-about-club-finances-and-transparency?fbclid=IwAR3i_hpxotuD29Hfgej2oFtGVhRtkwDzPFhEPh1TXtSz9bW3trjTjrYwOSE


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 03, 2021, 12:34:45 pm
And the point of that is?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 03, 2021, 12:44:21 pm
A statement of the facts as The Trust see them.
But not being a financial person, what does it actually say apart from the club is still in debt, we don't really understand what happened during the Chinese interruption and we've seen the plans for the East Stand that is going to be built sometime in the future?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 03, 2021, 12:51:06 pm
I donít understand the observation ď To date, the owners have not converted any debt to equity, suggesting that they expect repayment of loan funds in full and having the legal right to do so on demand and without prior notice.Ē Where do the board of The Trust think the owners will get the money from. Perhaps the money tree behind the west stand or the sale of BAS to AC Milan? If the Trust board are going to make statements of that nature they need to quantify the risk to the club I.E state exactly which assets the owners are going to plunder to drum up that capital? Perhaps Iím a bit thick but itís a complete mystery to me?

Whilst we are at it for the sake of a balanced debate I have a question for The Trust board. Given their criticism of the owners, even when accounting for inflation can they name another owner in the history of the club who has put more capital into it, and if not please can they justify that criticism? Especially as they have once again launched yet another divisive campaign without consulting the membership they supposedly represent?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CobblerForever on July 03, 2021, 12:59:36 pm
Another statement by the trust on club finances, 5USPORT money etc.

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/concerns-about-club-finances-and-transparency?fbclid=IwAR3i_hpxotuD29Hfgej2oFtGVhRtkwDzPFhEPh1TXtSz9bW3trjTjrYwOSE

Great work. Very interesting. Clarifies some matters I had raised here and now answered. Thank you.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 03, 2021, 13:50:19 pm
They just love to keep stiring it up don't they? I'm sure ive read all that before as it's pretty much open for general consumption, what are they hoping to achieve now, apart from going against the Club yet again.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 03, 2021, 14:02:12 pm
Personally I think, right or wrong itís just another dig at the motives of KT - it achieves nothing, says nothing that we didnít already know and the sentence mentioning not converting debt to equity states the obvious - at this stage in the (admittedly long drawn out) process do the trust or indeed any fans with an ounce of financial knowledge expect KT and DB to write off ďdebtĒ
Also mentioning they have now agreed to fund the West stand with their own money & shock horror it would increase the ďdebtĒ to £9-10 million - whilst Iím certainly not going to say Iím happy with KT & DB holding all the cards as ultimately no owner is going to buy the club and cover the debt so the options are they sell and write it off or put the company into administration and still lose their money - Iím at a loss to understand what the trust actually expect financially from an in situ owner.
This isnít an antitrust missive but I donít understand their objective here - my wish is simple KT and DB honour their commitment on completing the East stand, they get their land deal and either sell the club free of debt or continue as owners with a plan for further concrete development plans.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 03, 2021, 14:04:11 pm
They just love to keep stiring it up don't they? I'm sure ive read all that before as it's pretty much open for general consumption, what are they hoping to achieve now, apart from going against the Club yet again.
Oh dear KT you kind of asked for that to come out.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 03, 2021, 14:05:18 pm
I think there are a lot of questions for the club to answer.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CobblerForever on July 03, 2021, 14:05:41 pm
They just love to keep stiring it up don't they? I'm sure ive read all that before as it's pretty much open for general consumption, what are they hoping to achieve now, apart from going against the Club yet again.

I hadn't seen this before;

"The total amount paid for the two-stage purchase of Venturesí shares was £6,680,000" and the detail behind it.

Perhaps you had.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 03, 2021, 14:06:40 pm
Very interesting and very alarming. If they don't get an agreement with WNC the future is bleak. The chinese adventure remains a complete mystery.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 03, 2021, 14:13:06 pm
Personally I think, right or wrong itís just another dig at the motives of KT - it achieves nothing, says nothing that we didnít already know and the sentence mentioning not converting debt to equity states the obvious - at this stage in the (admittedly long drawn out) process do the trust or indeed any fans with an ounce of financial knowledge expect KT and DB to write off ďdebtĒ
Also mentioning they have now agreed to fund the West stand with their own money & shock horror it would increase the ďdebtĒ to £9-10 million - whilst Iím certainly not going to say Iím happy with KT & DB holding all the cards as ultimately no owner is going to buy the club and cover the debt so the options are they sell and write it off or put the company into administration and still lose their money - Iím at a loss to understand what the trust actually expect financially from an in situ owner.
This isnít an antitrust missive but I donít understand their objective here - my wish is simple KT and DB honour their commitment on completing the East stand, they get their land deal and either sell the club free of debt or continue as owners with a plan for further concrete development plans.
I think you need to read it again, £6.7m???


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 03, 2021, 14:29:00 pm
And the point of that is?
To find the truth.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 03, 2021, 15:02:56 pm
To find the truth.

And just how is it going to do that? It says nothing that we didn't already know, it's just the Trust board again having another hissy fit because they have been kicked out of the sadnpit.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 03, 2021, 15:04:30 pm
I think there are a lot of questions for the club to answer.

 ;D  One rhetorical question and one that has been answered by the plans released 25th June?  ::)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 03, 2021, 15:06:59 pm
Ok, so my understanding of the three main methods of how businesses are financed;

1. Share issue. Capital is raised to provide equity, and the shareholders are then paid dividends on any future profits posted. The value of these shares can go up or down, or be diluted by further share issues.

2. The business can obtain a loan from a lending institution and pay it back, plus interest, over a period. A business overdraft also comes into this category. Manchester United are probably the best example of this, and how much interest they have had to pay to furnish that debt is staggeringly high.

3. The owners self fund the initial set up or purchase (in this case £1) plus cover any trading losses. They are solely responsible for the capital provided. This is NTFC, and as the latest accounts show, it looks like the losses are c£6m+ since the takeover? Not ideal, but certainly not unusual in lower league professional football.

To all those looking to question motives, and dig for wrongdoing, as Melbourne has already pointed out, where is the pot of money going to come from within the club that KT & DB are going to get repaid by?

For those who think that the equity put in so far shouldn't be listed in the accounts as a directors loan, please let me know what you think it should be instead?

Any financial wrongdoing, especially on the scale that some are suggesting on here, would surely get picked up by auditors.

As already mentioned, it is the 5USports takeover and then withdrawal that the attention needs the spotlights on.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 03, 2021, 15:14:38 pm
I think you need to read it again, £6.7m???

I'm certainly not disputing the "Chinese Deal" was never transparent nor disputing the club itself almost certainly gained no benefit but I still don't see the relevance in the current situation - lack of transparency yes but are you suggesting actual wrong doing - if so please explain
 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 03, 2021, 15:18:40 pm
I think there are a lot of questions for the club to answer.

I disagree -  if the club chooses not to there is not a single question they have any obligation to answer.

As always I will put in the rider that I am not blindly supporting KT and DB but I still don't understand what the trust hope to achieve that will benefit the club - perhaps other than the somewhat nebulous claim of sharing the fact s can someone explain please


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: The Rauldinho on July 03, 2021, 15:56:54 pm
Can someone put the statement in to a dumbed down version for the general public to understand?

Whilst I don't doubt that a few will understand why (and what at) fingers are being pointed, does the Trust honestly think that the majority of the supporter base will even bother reading through that, let alone understand it?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 03, 2021, 16:46:56 pm
Rauldinho, thing it goes something like, .....we don't like what the Club are doing, we don't like the ownership,  we didn't like the employee's of the Club writing letters about us, so we will just make a statement of regurgitated facts and throw our toys out the pram for good measure.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 03, 2021, 16:50:39 pm
Can someone put the statement in to a dumbed down version for the general public to understand?

Whilst I don't doubt that a few will understand why (and what at) fingers are being pointed, does the Trust honestly think that the majority of the supporter base will even bother reading through that, let alone understand it?

I'll have a go as I like dumbed down!!

Ref the debt..... £6.5-7M and counting, owed to DB and KT

Ref the stand.... KT trying to reach agreement with the Council for the land sales (freehold from Council to CDNL), Council willing to talk when the East Stand is finished. Club willing to commit £3m in spending to finish the stand on agreement that the £3m comes back from the first land sale. Upshot, short term Club debt increases to £10m.
No Council deal no stand....no stand, no council deal....same impasse as for the last few years.

Ref 5USports...... Club stated "partnership" which saw 5U take a 60% stake in the Clubs owning holding company (Northampton Town Ventures which was owned by Fantastical Limited....a UK Registered entity) It is believed that KT/DB actually sold 100% of the holding company to 5U in two transactions.60% first and then 40% followed, the second one never reported (the second sale triggered David Bower resigning from the Board of Directors of NT Ventures as in effect he'd sold up).  The money due to UK owned Fantastical never appeared on any of their filed accounts. However that money did go to off shore British Virgin Islands based Belle-De-Jour.... 4.4m to BDJ and 1.1m to KT and 1.1m to DB personally.

When the Chinese put a stop to their state's companies making overseas investment in this way there was no "further money" coming from 5USports, this should have been the money which went to on-the-pitch progress such as higher wage bills and transfer monies.

As a result of no money forthcoming B-D-J took out a mortgage on the club with the security/charge being the shares they'd sold previously....the loan was not repaid and the shares transferred back to KT and DB for £1.1m (the sum of the loan), The Chinese disappeared, the club was back in KT and DB hands again. At the time reports stated that KT and DB had "reacquired" the shares.

The amount of the debt owed by the club now to DB and KT is roughly the same as the amount of money paid by 5USports to acquire the holding company of the Football Club.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Wanderingteyn on July 03, 2021, 16:58:49 pm
So the big reveal was stuff we already knew....shock.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: The Rauldinho on July 03, 2021, 17:08:50 pm
I'll have a go as I like dumbed down!!
Ref the debt..... £6.5-7M and counting, owed to DB and KT
Ref the stand.... KT trying to reach agreement with the Council for the land sales (freehold from Council to CDNL), Council willing to talk when the East Stand is finished. Club willing to commit £3m in spending to finish the stand on agreement that the £3m comes back from the first land sale. Upshot, short term Club debt increases to £10m.
No Council deal no stand....no stand, no council deal....same impasse as for the last few years.
Ref 5USports...... Club stated "partnership" which saw 5U take a 60% stake in the Clubs owning holding company (Northampton Town Ventures which was owned by Fantastical Limited....a UK Registered entity) It is believed that KT/DB actually sold 100% of the holding company to 5U in two transactions.60% first and then 40% followed, the second one never reported (the second sale triggered David Bower resigning from the Board of Directors of NT Ventures as in effect he'd sold up).  The money due to UK owned Fantastical never appeared on any of their filed accounts. However that money did go to off shore British Virgin Islands based Belle-De-Jour.... 4.4m to BDJ and 1.1m to KT and 1.1m to DB personally.
When the Chinese put a stop to their state's companies making overseas investment in this way there was no "further money" coming from 5USports, this should have been the money which went to on-the-pitch progress such as higher wage bills and transfer monies.
As a result of no money forthcoming B-D-J took out a mortgage on the club with the security/charge being the shares they'd sold previously....the loan was not repaid and the shares transferred back to KT and DB for £1.1m (the sum of the loan), The Chinese disappeared, the club was back in KT and DB hands again. At the time reports stated that KT and DB had "reacquired" the shares.
The amount of the debt owed by the club now to DB and KT is roughly the same as the amount of money paid by 5USports to acquire the holding company of the Football Club.

Get the Trust to post your version instead, you will probably get a better response from the fanbase!  ;D

On a serious note, opinion still seems to be split online between "Trust Agenda" and "Dodgy Owner Agenda" so fail to see how this will help the club moving forward.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Alfred on July 03, 2021, 17:15:51 pm
Not sure why the trust didnt finish with a summary of their findings ..... i suspect it wasnt included as they wanted people to guess.

After reading it I'm still trying to work out what they were trying to say.   I can only assume it was good and they are finally backing KT and DB for putting up the cash to enable the East to be finished, so they can profit from the land and the club becomes debt free ??

That being the case im sure we would have all taken that when DC sold up


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 03, 2021, 17:19:03 pm
Did the Chinese get their money back or did KT and DB pocket it? Is Belle de Jour accountable in any way or is it hidden away from everybody forever? If the latter, why? Is the club seriously losing a million a year just to stand still? Contrary to what a lot of people say on here I certainly didn't know all this so it is of value to set it out in my opinion and does it seriously not worry folk?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 03, 2021, 17:21:08 pm
Get the Trust to post your version instead, you will probably get a better response from the fanbase!  ;D

On a serious note, opinion still seems to be split online between "Trust Agenda" and "Dodgy Owner Agenda" so fail to see how this will help the club moving forward.

The Trust "agenda" as you call it is that it has concerns that the deal on the table with the Council is not the best for the club. I suppose the other half of the agenda (exploring fan owned options) is in case this whole thing goes sour. As I said, no council deal = no stand = no land = big debt unpayable.

I get that most people are tired of this now, and if all they want is a "finished" East Stand with some boxes and a total stadium capacity of 8040 then fair enough.....but the big opportunity for the club to develop...the Conference Centre, the hotel, the rest of the 24/7 operation seems to have fallen by the wayside. So what next?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Ragdoll Cobbler on July 03, 2021, 17:39:23 pm
The Trust "agenda" as you call it is that it has concerns that the deal on the table with the Council is not the best for the club. I suppose the other half of the agenda (exploring fan owned options) is in case this whole thing goes sour. As I said, no council deal = no stand = no land = big debt unpayable.

I get that most people are tired of this now, and if all they want is a "finished" East Stand with some boxes and a total stadium capacity of 8040 then fair enough.....but the big opportunity for the club to develop...the Conference Centre, the hotel, the rest of the 24/7 operation seems to have fallen by the wayside. So what next?

Was all this actually ever promised by KT/DB? Thought this was all promised under the Cardoza reign, before they "lost" 10.25 million quid (with a trust member on the board at the time)

Thought KT/DB only ever promised a finished East Stand and a more sustainable club....

What do the trust expect to happen releasing this latest statement?...on today of all days with an England quarter final to look forward to ::)

The trust never put anything to their members before releasing these statements, yet are supposed to represent them.

Like most, I'm sick or all this he said she said bulls#it, and can't see happy ending either way for the supporters.

The trust had an opportunity to work with the club moving forward but that's now completely gone for good.

Sad times for the most important people associated to the club...it's supporters!



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 03, 2021, 17:41:03 pm
Letís wake up folks
An 8,000 seater stadium

Mind blowing !!!

Is there actually a need to redevelop if itís only going to be 8000 capacity

A redevelopment  ;D ;D ;D

You could just stick the seats back in the east and put in a temporary Meccano stand in the corner
Voila

This current redevelopment will surely go down as the one that takes the club to the next levelÖÖ



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 03, 2021, 18:05:16 pm
Was all this actually ever promised by KT/DB? Thought this was all promised under the Cardoza reign, before they "lost" 10.25 million quid (with a trust member on the board at the time)

Thought KT/DB only ever promised a finished East Stand and a more sustainable club....

What do the trust expect to happen releasing this latest statement?...on today of all days with an England quarter final to look forward to ::)

The trust never put anything to their members before releasing these statements, yet are supposed to represent them.

Like most, I'm sick or all this he said she said bulls#it, and can't see happy ending either way for the supporters.

The trust had an opportunity to work with the club moving forward but that's now completely gone for good.

Sad times for the most important people associated to the club...it's supporters!



Whether it was promised by this regime or the last, the fact remains that the land was supposed to be the clubs golden egg...... does anyone actually think that's going to be the case with what is currently proposed?

If only the Football Club was about the football, instead of the Football Club playing second fiddle to some land deal.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Ragdoll Cobbler on July 03, 2021, 18:22:10 pm
Whether it was promised by this regime or the last, the fact remains that the land was supposed to be the clubs golden egg...... does anyone actually think that's going to be the case with what is currently proposed?

If only the Football Club was about the football, instead of the Football Club playing second fiddle to some land deal.

Agree, but wasn't the land tied up with dodgey leases created by the Cardoza's, which KT/DB eventually sorted out after years of red tape?

Who else was prepared to buy the club at the time?

These public spats ain't helping anyone...



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: The Rauldinho on July 03, 2021, 18:52:35 pm
The Trust "agenda" as you call it is that it has concerns that the deal on the table with the Council is not the best for the club. I suppose the other half of the agenda (exploring fan owned options) is in case this whole thing goes sour. As I said, no council deal = no stand = no land = big debt unpayable.

I get that most people are tired of this now, and if all they want is a "finished" East Stand with some boxes and a total stadium capacity of 8040 then fair enough.....but the big opportunity for the club to develop...the Conference Centre, the hotel, the rest of the 24/7 operation seems to have fallen by the wayside. So what next?

Just to be clear, it's not me calling it an agenda but a good percentage of posters on here and the replies on social media to both the Trusts own posts and others sharing it (from what I have seen).

I'm somewhere on the fence, unless someone categorically proves that KT/DB are the root of all evil then I think we do have to accept that the land deal is what will wipe out the debt we owe them. Otherwise it could be very difficult to have a club at all.

In terms of the Trust, they are said to be representing the wider support base and consulting the fans on these issues but I see little of that to be honest. They have a massive role to play for the club, I think they have just lost sight of this lately. Hopefully things will change and they can get the majority of the fanbase (members or not) back behind them.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 03, 2021, 18:57:47 pm
Whether it was promised by this regime or the last, the fact remains that the land was supposed to be the clubs golden egg...... does anyone actually think that's going to be the case with what is currently proposed?

If only the Football Club was about the football, instead of the Football Club playing second fiddle to some land deal.
Spot on
Ten years agoÖ..

Fact is that the 8000 redevelopment is actually a decade out of date.

Who in this day and age redevelops hoping to have a capacity of 8,000 ??
No one

Most start with more than 8,000 nowadays and I think thatís something the council should bare in mind.
What may have been acceptable a decade ago is frankly well behind the times now.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 03, 2021, 19:30:43 pm
As it stands if I won the Euromillions and decided to buy the club based on how they have presented themselves recently I would not even let a trust representative through the front door.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 03, 2021, 19:34:24 pm
The Trust "agenda" as you call it is that it has concerns that the deal on the table with the Council is not the best for the club. I suppose the other half of the agenda (exploring fan owned options) is in case this whole thing goes sour. As I said, no council deal = no stand = no land = big debt unpayable.

I get that most people are tired of this now, and if all they want is a "finished" East Stand with some boxes and a total stadium capacity of 8040 then fair enough.....but the big opportunity for the club to develop...the Conference Centre, the hotel, the rest of the 24/7 operation seems to have fallen by the wayside. So what next?

So to summarise, the trust want:

The East stand finished to a "good" standard.  An Increased capacity.  Conference centre, hotel etc.  An expansion to the South and North Stands.  An improved playing budget contributing to a side that is capable of maintaining league one football eventually pushing for the Championship.  Add in a better youth setup where the first team is built mainly on good young prospects.    

Oh and we want to own our own training ground with much better facilities than we have currently.

In addition we don't like private ownership, in particular you Kelvin and David.  Oh and we don't like land deals unless you build a velodrome, swimming pool....but we are happy to break this principled stance if you are willing to commit to funding all of the above requirements from it.  You can make a small profit evetually if there is anything left over but don't make it too big and if you could pay for everything up front that would be great.  Oh to add, In the meantime we want no club debt, irrespective if you have to sack a manager, sign dud players, have a global pandemic and we want the club run on a break even basis....don't forget to get us promoted.  We would also like you to write off all £6 Million + of the loans you have made to the club as gifts.

Can we also be given a seat on the board so we can tell you how badly you run the club face to face at board meetings rather than via monthly statements on our website.  Eventually you can sell the club to us for the £1 you bought it for and we will take it from there.

I should warn you that while all this is ongoing we will continue to publicly insinuate you are unfit owners and call you out at every opportunity suggesting many ways in which you are failing as a club without offering any alternatives that will actually work without the whole English footballing structure being torn down and rebuilt from scratch.  Also known as the Bundesliga 50+1 method.

Good luck, let us know when you have done all that we have the £1 ready and waiting.  In fact thinking about it you still owe us £10k from when we paid the staff so you can pay us £9999 to take it off your hands.

.....you'd like to think I was joking here wouldn't you?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 03, 2021, 19:51:12 pm
Think you have summed it up well there MCHammer.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Ragdoll Cobbler on July 03, 2021, 19:53:37 pm
So to summarise, the trust want:

The East stand finished to a "good" standard.  An Increased capacity.  Conference centre, hotel etc.  An expansion to the South and North Stands.  An improved playing budget contributing to a side that is capable of maintaining league one football eventually pushing for the Championship.  Add in a better youth setup where the first team is built mainly on good young prospects.    

Oh and we want to own our own training ground with much better facilities than we have currently.

In addition we don't like private ownership, in particular you Kelvin and David.  Oh and we don't like land deals unless you build a velodrome, swimming pool....but we are happy to break this principled stance if you are willing to commit to funding all of the above requirements from it.  You can make a small profit evetually if there is anything left over but don't make it too big and if you could pay for everything up front that would be great.  Oh to add, In the meantime we want no club debt, irrespective if you have to sack a manager, sign dud players, have a global pandemic and we want the club run on a break even basis....don't forget to get us promoted.  We would also like you to write off all £6 Million + of the loans you have made to the club as gifts.

Can we also be given a seat on the board so we can tell you how badly you run the club face to face at board meetings rather than via monthly statements on our website.  Eventually you can sell the club to us for the £1 you bought it for and we will take it from there.

I should warn you that while all this is ongoing we will continue to publicly insinuate you are unfit owners and call you out at every opportunity suggesting many ways in which you are failing as a club without offering any alternatives that will actually work without the whole English footballing structure being torn down and rebuilt from scratch.  Also known as the Bundesliga 50+1 method.

Good luck, let us know when you have done all that we have the £1 ready and waiting.  In fact thinking about it you still owe us £10k from when we paid the staff so you can pay us £9999 to take it off your hands.

.....you'd like to think I was joking here wouldn't you?

Great post...

Absolutely how most supporters (trust members or otherwise!) see things...


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 03, 2021, 19:53:57 pm
So to summarise, the trust want:

The East stand finished to a "good" standard.  An Increased capacity.  Conference centre, hotel etc.  An expansion to the South and North Stands.  An improved playing budget contributing to a side that is capable of maintaining league one football eventually pushing for the Championship.  Add in a better youth setup where the first team is built mainly on good young prospects.    

Oh and we want to own our own training ground with much better facilities than we have currently.

In addition we don't like private ownership, in particular you Kelvin and David.  Oh and we don't like land deals unless you build a velodrome, swimming pool....but we are happy to break this principled stance if you are willing to commit to funding all of the above requirements from it.  You can make a small profit evetually if there is anything left over but don't make it too big and if you could pay for everything up front that would be great.  Oh to add, In the meantime we want no club debt, irrespective if you have to sack a manager, sign dud players, have a global pandemic and we want the club run on a break even basis....don't forget to get us promoted.  We would also like you to write off all £6 Million + of the loans you have made to the club as gifts.

Can we also be given a seat on the board so we can tell you how badly you run the club face to face at board meetings rather than via monthly statements on our website.  Eventually you can sell the club to us for the £1 you bought it for and we will take it from there.

I should warn you that while all this is ongoing we will continue to publicly insinuate you are unfit owners and call you out at every opportunity suggesting many ways in which you are failing as a club without offering any alternatives that will actually work without the whole English footballing structure being torn down and rebuilt from scratch.  Also known as the Bundesliga 50+1 method.

Good luck, let us know when you have done all that we have the £1 ready and waiting.  In fact thinking about it you still owe us £10k from when we paid the staff so you can pay us £9999 to take it off your hands.

.....you'd like to think I was joking here wouldn't you?

The awful thing is you've just summed up the Trust perfectly there.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 03, 2021, 20:00:03 pm
Still a bit confused about 5U Sport and genuinely donít understand the point?

Either they paid to own the club, weíre stopped from doing it and were paid the money back, so what?

They never paid the money in which case the club reverted to the original owners, so what?

5U Sport paid the money and the owners kept the money and the club. This would leave them open to legal challenge in the courts which has never materialised since the deal collapsed. This therefore is probably highly unlikely. What reasonable explanation would there be for 5U Sport not make an application to the courts?

Frankly my thoughts are so what to all of it? It just appears to me that the board of The Trust are slinging any bit of mud they can find about hoping some will stick. This is in a desperate attempt to demonstrate some impropriety and discredit the owners. However, thatís absolutely fair enough the club should be open to scrutiny and be prepared to respond to genuine allegations and concerns.

This should also apply to the Trust as well. Therefore the Trust have stated many supporters and members are asking these questions. Well how many is it?

What exactly are Trust accusing the owners of?

What should the owners have done instead to run the club, complete the stand and avoid any debt to any party?

As stated even allowing for inflation the owners have probably put more into the club than any other in the clubís entire history. Comparatively at this point why exactly are they considered failures in light of this.

Show your hand or fold and get off the pot basically.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 03, 2021, 20:03:20 pm
The awful thing is you've just summed up the Trust perfectly there.

I personally hope, and don't think the Trust do think like this but, crucially, this is how a majority of the support will perceive them to be?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 03, 2021, 20:18:15 pm
Wow, it has all kicked off. What the hell is going on at NTFC?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 03, 2021, 21:39:57 pm
Wow, it has all kicked off. What the hell is going on at NTFC?
A minority of supporters want a change of ownership for reasons unclear from where Iím sitting?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 03, 2021, 22:06:24 pm
Letís wake up folks
An 8,000 seater stadium

Mind blowing !!!

Is there actually a need to redevelop if itís only going to be 8000 capacity




Come on Shoey - no one thinks completion of the east stand in any way constitutes significant redevelopment- but any progress starts with one step and that first step has to be completing that carbuncle.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 03, 2021, 22:12:54 pm
So to summarise, the trust want:

The East stand finished to a "good" standard.  An Increased capacity.  Conference centre, hotel etc.  An expansion to the South and North Stands.  An improved playing budget contributing to a side that is capable of maintaining league one football eventually pushing for the Championship.  Add in a better youth setup where the first team is built mainly on good young prospects.    

Oh and we want to own our own training ground with much better facilities than we have currently.

In addition we don't like private ownership, in particular you Kelvin and David.  Oh and we don't like land deals unless you build a velodrome, swimming pool....but we are happy to break this principled stance if you are willing to commit to funding all of the above requirements from it.  You can make a small profit evetually if there is anything left over but don't make it too big and if you could pay for everything up front that would be great.  Oh to add, In the meantime we want no club debt, irrespective if you have to sack a manager, sign dud players, have a global pandemic and we want the club run on a break even basis....don't forget to get us promoted.  We would also like you to write off all £6 Million + of the loans you have made to the club as gifts.

Can we also be given a seat on the board so we can tell you how badly you run the club face to face at board meetings rather than via monthly statements on our website.  Eventually you can sell the club to us for the £1 you bought it for and we will take it from there.

I should warn you that while all this is ongoing we will continue to publicly insinuate you are unfit owners and call you out at every opportunity suggesting many ways in which you are failing as a club without offering any alternatives that will actually work without the whole English footballing structure being torn down and rebuilt from scratch.  Also known as the Bundesliga 50+1 method.

Good luck, let us know when you have done all that we have the £1 ready and waiting.  In fact thinking about it you still owe us £10k from when we paid the staff so you can pay us £9999 to take it off your hands.

.....you'd like to think I was joking here wouldn't you?

A perfect summary, I could not have put it better myself.
Unfortunately, The Trust Board lose even more credibility every time they open their collective mouth(s).
Someone on the Board must realise this, or is this why certain individuals have left?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 03, 2021, 22:27:47 pm
Come on Shoey - no one thinks completion of the east stand in any way constitutes significant redevelopment- but any progress starts with one step and that first step has to be completing that carbuncle.
I do agree but my main thrust was that the redevelopment plans are ten years old and imo outdated.

Letís be honest if as a club going forwards the limit of our ambitions is to dream of an 8,000 seater stadium that is really embarrassing.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 03, 2021, 23:54:49 pm
So to summarise, the trust want:

The East stand finished to a "good" standard.  An Increased capacity.  Conference centre, hotel etc.  An expansion to the South and North Stands.  An improved playing budget contributing to a side that is capable of maintaining league one football eventually pushing for the Championship.  Add in a better youth setup where the first team is built mainly on good young prospects.    

Oh and we want to own our own training ground with much better facilities than we have currently.

In addition we don't like private ownership, in particular you Kelvin and David.  Oh and we don't like land deals unless you build a velodrome, swimming pool....but we are happy to break this principled stance if you are willing to commit to funding all of the above requirements from it.  You can make a small profit evetually if there is anything left over but don't make it too big and if you could pay for everything up front that would be great.  Oh to add, In the meantime we want no club debt, irrespective if you have to sack a manager, sign dud players, have a global pandemic and we want the club run on a break even basis....don't forget to get us promoted.  We would also like you to write off all £6 Million + of the loans you have made to the club as gifts.

Can we also be given a seat on the board so we can tell you how badly you run the club face to face at board meetings rather than via monthly statements on our website.  Eventually you can sell the club to us for the £1 you bought it for and we will take it from there.

I should warn you that while all this is ongoing we will continue to publicly insinuate you are unfit owners and call you out at every opportunity suggesting many ways in which you are failing as a club without offering any alternatives that will actually work without the whole English footballing structure being torn down and rebuilt from scratch.  Also known as the Bundesliga 50+1 method.

Good luck, let us know when you have done all that we have the £1 ready and waiting.  In fact thinking about it you still owe us £10k from when we paid the staff so you can pay us £9999 to take it off your hands.

.....you'd like to think I was joking here wouldn't you?

Never has a nail been hit more accurately and firmer on the head than MC's comments.
 
Is the the extent of the revelation we have been waiting on.

Pathetic 😂😂😂😂😂





Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 00:21:43 am
Oh my god, the Trust are trying to tell you that the club is VERY close to going to the wall and still you slag them off!
KT shows you some fŻcking CGIs he had for the last couple of years and you think heís the fŻckin messiah.
The enabling land around Sixseats is the only way in the short term that we could expand the ground and get 24/7 revenue from conference facilities and a hotel.
You lot would be happy for the current owners to bodge up the hideous east stand, up our debt to £10m, pay it off with the land profit and the fuÁk off with whatís left?
Unbelievable


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 02:13:51 am
To reiterate, The Trust are entitled to scrutinise the actions of the owners and ask challenging questions. However, they must also accept that supporters and their own membership are entitled to apply those same standards to them. Particularly when itís is believed by those members they act without reasonable engagement and consultation in contradiction to their own mission statement. Although this can apparently be changed at the behest of The Board also without proving the majority endorsement of its membership. Therefore expect this rather awkward situation to be addressed in the very near future. All members are equal, but some are more equal than others apparently.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 02:48:49 am
Whether it was promised by this regime or the last, the fact remains that the land was supposed to be the clubs golden egg...... does anyone actually think that's going to be the case with what is currently proposed?

If only the Football Club was about the football, instead of the Football Club playing second fiddle to some land deal.
GPC, your not daft and I respect your views. In an ideal world what is your personal view on how this should go?

What standard should the stand be finished to?

How should the debt be repaid?

What financial conditions should the club operate under if it is to not be in debt to the owners, operate within its means?

What would be the acceptable circumstances in which the owners embark on an exit strategy, because I donít believe for one minute you think itís a pound?

If the owners have pocketed moneys from the 5U Sport deal surreptitiously, what reasonable explanation could there be for that not being challenged in the courts? Otherwise it either got paid back or was never paid in the first place and what would be the issue with either of those outcomes?

As I have stated even when accounting for inflation, I suspect the owners have put more capital into the club than any owners in the clubís history. Given this comparative measure, is the amount of criticism really justified?

I accept you are in a challenging position also being on the Board, so if you feel you donít want to answer at this point then fair enough. I only ask for the sake of debate and donít intend to try and put you in an awkward situation.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Risdene on July 04, 2021, 06:54:56 am
Oh my god, the Trust are trying to tell you that the club is VERY close to going to the wall and still you slag them off!
KT shows you some fŻcking CGIs he had for the last couple of years and you think heís the fŻckin messiah.
The enabling land around Sixseats is the only way in the short term that we could expand the ground and get 24/7 revenue from conference facilities and a hotel.
You lot would be happy for the current owners to bodge up the hideous east stand, up our debt to £10m, pay it off with the land profit and the fuÁk off with whatís left?
Unbelievable

5471 relentless anti KT/DB posts yet NOT ONE post giving a tangible alternative to the current situation. Try living in the real world and not hide behind a keyboard with only theory!

Yes I want a 14,00 seater Stadium with Executive Boxes, Conference Centre, Hotel and our own training ground BUT I do not know how to finance it without a giant sugar Daddy (or Mummy).

I won't hold my breath waiting for your tangible alternative, welcome to the real world!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 04, 2021, 07:10:17 am

You lot would be happy for the current owners to bodge up the hideous east stand, up our debt to £10m, pay it off with the land profit and the fuÁk off with whatís left?
Unbelievable

Yes, frankly!  

KT and DB have been pretty open on this being their objective since the day they arrived. They aren't here to be sugar daddies. If your scenario came to pass, the club would have better facilities and be debt free, KT and DB would make their money and we'd presumably be sold on to another owner. God knows who that will be, but a debt free club would be a reasonably attractive proposition to someone, for better or for worse.

That's why I don't understand the Trust's negativity about the land deal. They clearly don't like the current owners and would appear to want them out. The best way to achieve that is for the land deal to take place! If it doesn't, then there's nothing to keep KT and DB here, and if they pull the plug then THAT'S when we really will be all the way up shžt creek without a boat, never mind a paddle.

The Trust's animosity towards our owners seems to extend so far they actively don't want them to make a profit from their time here and would appear to think that the club is entitled to trouser the entire profit from any deal.

The irony is their current damaging course of action could well hand them the most pyrrhic of pyrrhic victories.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 08:02:13 am
Oh my god, the Trust are trying to tell you that the club is VERY close to going to the wall and still you slag them off!
KT shows you some fûcking CGIs he had for the last couple of years and you think he’s the fûckin messiah.
The enabling land around Sixseats is the only way in the short term that we could expand the ground and get 24/7 revenue from conference facilities and a hotel.
You lot would be happy for the current owners to bodge up the hideous east stand, up our debt to £10m, pay it off with the land profit and the fuçk off with what’s left?
Unbelievable

Hopefully your hangover isn't too severe...  8)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 04, 2021, 08:43:48 am
I cant believe that most on here glibly accept that we have to lose a million quid a year just to exist as a league two club with nothing tangible to show for it, on or off the pitch.
Is this what you were expecting when the owners came riding over the horizon?
Now, the position being, the club strikes a contract with the council or there is every possibility of the club going under.
Isnt that the larger point that seems to have been forgotten about?
If the debt is erased by a once (twice?) in a life time deal with the council, what is going to happen in another 6 years when we are another 6 million down?
200 odd extra seats and a few posh boxes will not make much of a hole in that.
Prudent management? I think not.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 08:50:46 am
I cant believe that most on here glibly accept that we have to lose a million quid a year just to exist as a league two club with nothing tangible to show for it, on or off the pitch.
Is this what you were expecting when the owners came riding over the horizon?
Now, the position being, the club strikes a contract with the council or there is every possibility of the club going under.
Isnt that the larger point that seems to have been forgotten about?
If the debt is erased by a once (twice?) in a life time deal with the council, what is going to happen in another 6 years when we are another 6 million down?
200 odd extra seats and a few posh boxes will not make much of a hole in that.
Prudent management? I think not.

Frankly CJ thatís why the investor/owner model doesnít work very well. At some point invariably the assets are sold to get a return. That being said I still feel the current owners are doing as much as could be expected from that ownership model. However, in an ideal world I believe that needs to change, but it has to be across the board and not just with a few clubs in isolation which will be immensely difficult to achieve. All my own personal opinion obviously.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Buster on July 04, 2021, 08:51:30 am
Hopefully your hangover isn't too severe...  8)

😄 quality


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 04, 2021, 09:06:06 am
Frankly CJ thatís why the investor/owner model doesnít work very well. At some point invariably the assets are sold to get a return. That being said I still feel the current owners are doing as much as could be expected from that ownership model. However, in an ideal world I believe that needs to change, but it has to be across the board and not just with a few clubs in isolation which will be immensely difficult to achieve. All my own personal opinion obviously.
For doing as much as could be expected do you mean putting 6 million debt onto the club? You have said they will probably have invested more than any previous incumbent, is that a good thing? The chairman has previous experience in the field, do you agree that his high stakes poker game with the council was the only way to go?
The club was debfree when the owners took over, and had been run at breakeven cost under Cardoza for some of their tenure, I believe, prior to the loan money disappearing.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 09:47:10 am
For doing as much as could be expected do you mean putting 6 million debt onto the club? You have said they will probably have invested more than any previous incumbent, is that a good thing? The chairman has previous experience in the field, do you agree that his high stakes poker game with the council was the only way to go?
The club was debfree when the owners took over, and had been run at breakeven cost under Cardoza for some of their tenure, I believe, prior to the loan money disappearing.
According to the representations made in court the I believe the Cardozas claimed they were owed millions in loans they made to the club, and this formed part of their defence? Therefore the circumstances were pretty much the same as now. Itís been losing money and incurring debt at the same rate as pretty much every other league club. This is why football is facing financial Armageddon. So no itís not a good thing, but they are only operating in a market that has been allowed to evolve by the EFL and government. It has to change, but I maintain as investors go we could do a lot lot worse.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 04, 2021, 09:55:29 am
It is difficult to see a happy ending to all this. I think the best case is that they get the land, finish the stand (to generate a bit more income), clear their 'debt' and hang around a bit until they find a buyer. They know if they disappear without this then they can kiss goodbye to their money. Talk of us going to the wall is never going to recoup their money. What assets are they going to sell, the portakabins and kitchen sink?
At least with the stand and limited additional income we may be able to run on an even keel, although it'll still be in the little league.
When we move into Sixfields the land was never touted as some golden egg to catapult the club. It became a lure for property investors, demonstrated by Cardoza and now KT. Someone is going to make money from it and I highly doubt it will be as much as it was in the past, or what they thought. There is clearly also an underlying resentment of any 'outsider' making personal gain that doesn't go directly to the club, which is understandable but aspirational. Who knows what goes on within the council but I am sure there is still a hangover today from the loan.
If this falls through we'll be out with buckets again and I don't necessarily hold the view that we'd be immediately to the wall because we have to repay KT and co. Those that do think that would surely rather they get the land and make a buck to get us back on level terms? If anyone thinks they'll get £100m from the land and sign some £1m players need to smell the coffee!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Ragdoll Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 10:32:45 am
PLEASE CAN THE TRUST CLEARLY EXPLAIN THEIR ALTERNATIVE TO KT/DB ONCE & FOR ALL?

If you don't have one, what is the point in continually harrasing the current owners?

No one else came calling when Cardoza's were forced out...


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 04, 2021, 10:39:46 am
According to the representations made in court the I believe the Cardozas claimed they were owed millions in loans they made to the club, and this formed part of their defence? Therefore the circumstances were pretty much the same as now. Itís being losing money and incurring debt at the same rate as pretty much every other league club. This is why football is facing financial Armageddon. So no itís not a good thing, but they are only operating in a market that has been allowed to evolve by the EFL and government. It has to change, but I maintain as investors go we could do a lot lot worse.
They were yes Melly, but I dont think I'm wrong in saying that once they'd stopped splashing the cash, the Cardozas ran the club at breakeven or at a minimal loss (why would anyone who knew them think anything else?!)
GPC, correct me if I'm wrong?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 10:44:41 am
They were yes Melly, but I dont think I'm wrong in saying that once they'd stopped splashing the cash, the Cardozas ran the club at breakeven or at a minimal loss (why would anyone who knew them think anything else?!)
GPC, correct me if I'm wrong?
There was still the outstanding debt though CJ and they stopped splashing because they had run out of cash, hence the hullabaloo. At least thatís my interpretation anyway?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Winslow Lee on July 04, 2021, 10:53:19 am
I love how people moan about the club running at a loss and with almost the same breath moaning about the playing budget.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 04, 2021, 10:54:13 am
There was still the outstanding debt though CJ and they stopped splashing because they had run out of cash, hence the hullabaloo. At least thatís my interpretation anyway?
Ok then, so they speculated to accumulate? When that didn't work they sat back, tightened the purse strings, ran it on an even keel and waited to 'hook' the council? Does that show that you dont need to build up huge losses in running a league two football clubo not?  I dont know, I'm not a financial expert on any matters let alone those of football.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 04, 2021, 11:02:52 am
There was still the outstanding debt though CJ and they stopped splashing because they had run out of cash, hence the hullabaloo. At least thatís my interpretation anyway?

Didn't Cardoza sell Toney on the cheap because there were bills to be paid?

You only have to look at Bury and Macclesfield recently, and Swindon currently by the looks of it, to see what happens when the owner runs out of cash? I don't believe that this is the current position of NTFC?

The failure to get the land deal done will significantly change the financial landscape, for which we should then all be prepared, and for which I feel that the Trust needs to concentrate on.

My perception of current statements is that the Trust wants the land deal to fail, but for reasons I cannot fathom?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 11:06:50 am
CJ, they went to the wall and we were days from extinction. That is no example on how to run the club. My take is they tightened the purse strings on an empty purse.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 04, 2021, 11:13:28 am
Oh my god, the Trust are trying to tell you that the club is VERY close to going to the wall and still you slag them off!


Are they? I would have thought that any owner funded business that operates on, at best, a breakeven situation is always on the brink if those owners run out of cash?

Are there any active adverse creditor reports, or current or pending CCJs against the club?

If not, could you explain your thinking on this please? Is it that you are worried that DB is going to pull the plug on any additional funding if needed?

I don't see anything in any media where we aren't paying the bills, or player wages, unlike this;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57693793

I would be worrying a LOT more if this scenario were our current situation.  :(


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 04, 2021, 11:25:08 am
Still a bit confused about 5U Sport and genuinely donít understand the point?

Either they paid to own the club, weíre stopped from doing it and were paid the money back, so what?

They never paid the money in which case the club reverted to the original owners, so what?

5U Sport paid the money and the owners kept the money and the club. This would leave them open to legal challenge in the courts which has never materialised since the deal collapsed. This therefore is probably highly unlikely. What reasonable explanation would there be for 5U Sport not make an application to the courts?

Frankly my thoughts are so what to all of it? It just appears to me that the board of The Trust are slinging any bit of mud they can find about hoping some will stick. This is in a desperate attempt to demonstrate some impropriety and discredit the owners. However, thatís absolutely fair enough the club should be open to scrutiny and be prepared to respond to genuine allegations and concerns.

This should also apply to the Trust as well. Therefore the Trust have stated many supporters and members are asking these questions. Well how many is it?

What exactly are Trust accusing the owners of?

What should the owners have done instead to run the club, complete the stand and avoid any debt to any party?

As stated even allowing for inflation the owners have probably put more into the club than any other in the clubís entire history. Comparatively at this point why exactly are they considered failures in light of this.

Show your hand or fold and get off the pot basically.

One thing that comes to mind with regards to 5U is that they didn't have enough friends in high places to get the go ahead for the foriegn investment, or they didn't pay of the right party members and had to back out.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 11:56:13 am
I do agree but my main thrust was that the redevelopment plans are ten years old and imo outdated.

Letís be honest if as a club going forwards the limit of our ambitions is to dream of an 8,000 seater stadium that is really embarrassing.



Don't disagree - I just say get this bit done asap


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 13:58:16 pm
Oh my god, the Trust are trying to tell you that the club is VERY close to going to the wall and still you slag them off!
KT shows you some fŻcking CGIs he had for the last couple of years and you think heís the fŻckin messiah.
The enabling land around Sixseats is the only way in the short term that we could expand the ground and get 24/7 revenue from conference facilities and a hotel.
You lot would be happy for the current owners to bodge up the hideous east stand, up our debt to £10m, pay it off with the land profit and the fuÁk off with whatís left?
Unbelievable

So if you first statement is true - (and no factual evidence to back that up) - how do the trust's statements help the situation - like it or not the "land deal" would likely be the best redemption for your first point but all I can see the trust statements doing is dividing the fan base and due to the constant subtle implication of inappropriate ownership of the club make the council less likely to finalise the deal - paradoxically the trust, not only are lacking tangible alternatives may, by their action precipitate the demise of our club. 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 14:14:16 pm
So if you first statement is true - (and no factual evidence to back that up) - how do the trust's statements help the situation - like it or not the "land deal" would likely be the best redemption for your first point but all I can see the trust statements doing is dividing the fan base and due to the constant subtle implication of inappropriate ownership of the club make the council less likely to finalise the deal - paradoxically the trust, not only are lacking tangible alternatives may, by their action precipitate the demise of our club. 

If the trust (as Manny and others elude too) have significant information on the situation then publish and be dammed - but currently and its only my opinion but their behaviour neither represents me as a member of the football club they claim to represent. Rather than speaking directly to their members the trust have chosen to issue Press Releases without any consultation - why then should anyone bother to be a trust member - no consultation and "information" distributed equally and at the same time as the general public - irrespective of the matters in hand this is not the correct process for any organisation.


I'd like the trust to state to simply write to all members as to what what their executable objective is - but some nebulous soundbite on representing the fans and the interests of the club doesn't cut it for me


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 04, 2021, 14:23:08 pm
So if you first statement is true - (and no factual evidence to back that up) - how do the trust's statements help the situation - like it or not the "land deal" would likely be the best redemption for your first point but all I can see the trust statements doing is dividing the fan base and due to the constant subtle implication of inappropriate ownership of the club make the council less likely to finalise the deal - paradoxically the trust, not only are lacking tangible alternatives may, by their action precipitate the demise of our club. 

This is a good post......in the main! I will take exception to the point that implies that the Trust are likely to precipitate the demise of the club though!!

It is not the Trust that didn't make the improvements to the stand in 2015-16 as was implied.....it wasn't the Trust who then blamed the delay on the finishing of the stand on the lease issue....it wasn't the Trust who, upon formalising the leases in 2018/19 and correcting the oversights identified still did not build the stand.

The Club has backed itself into a corner now, or rather the owners have backed the club into a corner, and as some are saying perhaps the only way out is to get the land deal done and allow the current owners to pay back their loans to themselves and disappear stage right.

However, if you believe that the Trusts "revelations" about the monies are not known already by the Council then you're a bit naÔve! They will carry out more due diligence than the Trust ever could. If the deal fails its because the deal is not right, primarily for the Council and its tax payers and secondarily for the football club.

Ask yourself why the deal never got through NBC....essentially the same deal that is now on the table with WNC. Unfortunately for the club the major players on the council have moved from NBC to WNC, including the leader. That is why the feeling of those who claim to be in the know is that this deal will not get past the Council anyway......

The Club, or CDNL if you prefer, has been sitting on the leases for the past 6 years and there has been no progress. The Council have the option to take back the leases in just over two years, and then they will be free to sell the land for redevelopment themselves, thereby gaining 100% of the value of the land, rather than the 50% split that is proposed at present.

What would be the best option, the value for money deal for the council? Develop now and claim 50%? Sell the leasehold now to CDNL with land prices in the depressed state they are? Or wait a couple of years when the economy should hopefully pick up and then sell the land themselves for redevelopment to the highest bidder.

And all the time this goes on the Club owes nearly £7m to its owners, and the only prospect of them ever seeing that money is to get a deal which suits them (including the £3m payback on any work carried out on the East stand before the Council even gets to see a penny)

Finally, this line appears in the Clubs own literature/press release regarding the proposed East Stand development.... "Football Club will take on any development risk"  Is it just me who is slightly concerned about statements like that?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 14:33:45 pm
GPC, your not daft and I respect your views. In an ideal world what is your personal view on how this should go?

What standard should the stand be finished to?

How should the debt be repaid?

What financial conditions should the club operate under if it is to not be in debt to the owners, operate within its means?

What would be the acceptable circumstances in which the owners embark on an exit strategy, because I donít believe for one minute you think itís a pound?

If the owners have pocketed moneys from the 5U Sport deal surreptitiously, what reasonable explanation could there be for that not being challenged in the courts? Otherwise it either got paid back or was never paid in the first place and what would be the issue with either of those outcomes?

As I have stated even when accounting for inflation, I suspect the owners have put more capital into the club than any owners in the clubís history. Given this comparative measure, is the amount of criticism really justified?

I accept you are in a challenging position also being on the Board, so if you feel you donít want to answer at this point then fair enough. I only ask for the sake of debate and donít intend to try and put you in an awkward situation.
Hahahahaha the owners havenít put capital into the club they have loaned it FFS and given they arenít going to write it off they will expect that capital back.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 14:35:39 pm

5471 relentless anti KT/DB posts yet NOT ONE post giving a tangible alternative to the current situation. Try living in the real world and not hide behind a keyboard with only theory!

Yes I want a 14,00 seater Stadium with Executive Boxes, Conference Centre, Hotel and our own training ground BUT I do not know how to finance it without a giant sugar Daddy (or Mummy).

I won't hold my breath waiting for your tangible alternative, welcome to the real world!
There is £millions of pounds worth of enabling land, sometimes when you havenít got a clue about something itís best to be quiet 🤫


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 14:40:34 pm
Good points - my thoughts follow in red
This is a good post......in the main! I will take exception to the point that implies that the Trust are likely to precipitate the demise of the club though!! Obviously I hope not but I think we would all be concerned if the land deal doesn't go through

It is not the Trust that didn't make the improvements to the stand in 2015-16 as was implied.....it wasn't the Trust who then blamed the delay on the finishing of the stand on the lease issue....it wasn't the Trust who, upon formalising the leases and correcting the oversights identified still did not build the stand. Absolutely correct and I too think KT has been both slow and lacked transparency on the progress (or lack of it) on all these issues

The Club has backed itself into a corner now, or rather the owners have backed the club into a corner, and as some are saying perhaps the only way out is to get the land deal done and allow the current owners to pay back their loans to themselves and disappear stage right. Agreed but unfortunately and I know this will annoy some people but from a financial perspective the club is the owners

However, if you believe that the Trusts "revelations" about the monies are not known already by the Council then you're a bit naÔve! They will carry out more due diligence than the Trust ever could. If the deal fails its because the deal is not right, primarily for the Council and its tax payers and secondarily for the football club. Again agreed - I doubt if there is a single aspect of the revelations that were not known - the council were historically badly burnt and their due diligence processes one would think have been massively overhauled

Ask yourself why the deal never got through NBC....essentially the same deal that is now on the table with WNC. Unfortunately for the club the major players on the council have moved from NBC to WNC, including the leader. That is why the feeling of those who claim to be in the know is that this deal will not get past the Council anyway......Yes - its a big concern

The Club, or CDNL if you prefer, has been sitting on the leases for the past 6 years and there has been no progress. The Council have the option to take back the leases in just over two years, and then they will be free to sell the land for redevelopment themselves, thereby gaining 100% of the value of the land, rather than the 50% split that is proposed at present. as with previous point

What would be the best option, the value for money deal for the council? Develop now and claim 50%? Sell the leasehold now to CDNL with land prices in the depressed state they are? Or wait a couple of years when the economy should hopefully pick up and then sell the land themselves for redevelopment to the highest bidder. On the face of it they would wait but I don't pretend to know the terms of a lease buy back and without that knowledge not possible to accurately assess

And all the time this goes on the Club owes nearly £7m to its owners, and the only prospect of them ever seeing that money is to get a deal which suits them (including the £3m payback on any work carried out on the East stand before the Council even gets to see a penny) This one is a bit of a circular argument and back to my first point - yes of course (and with the additional East Stand Development) the debt is closer to £10 million but the argument remains valid - very unlikely someone is going to buy the club and assume the debt (The Trust's offer a little bit short!) and if KT & DB declare the club bankrupt they definitely get nothing back

Finally, this line appears in the Clubs own literature/press release regarding the proposed East Stand development.... "Football Club will take on any development risk"  Is it just me who is slightly concerned about statements like that?

I completely understand the concerns here but surely whatever the reservation the best option is for a land deal to go ahead - I currently see no other options so therefore shouldn't the entire fanbase be pulling together to try to get that outcome?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 14:46:07 pm
Hahahahaha the owners havenít put capital into the club they have loaned it FFS and given they arenít going to write it off they will expect that capital back.


I'm surprised - you profess to be a bit of a businessman but virtually all "investment" of this nature is via a mechanism of director loans

......maybe you could give me a couple of scenarios where they could actually get that capital back - I can think of 2 - one possible the other most unlikely.

One might suggest historically such monies were recovered by theft but I think that option has probably disappeared  ::)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 14:48:48 pm
There is £millions of pounds worth of enabling land, sometimes when you havenít got a clue about something itís best to be quiet 🤫

...........apparently a reliable source on here suggests it is £100 million  ;)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 14:49:30 pm
I'm surprised - you profess to be a bit of a businessman but virtually all "investment" of this nature is via a mechanism of director loans

......maybe you could give me a couple of scenarios where they could actually get that capital back - I can think of 2 - one possible the other most unlikely.

One might suggest historically such monies were recovered by theft but I think that option has probably disappeared  ::)
They are getting their capital back from the land deal all £10m. Then they will be off with half of whatís left.
Do you think thatís a good deal for the club?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 14:51:29 pm
...........apparently a reliable source on here suggests it is £100 million  ;)
Cardoza was offered £29m in 2014 but he turned it down because it was massively undervalued.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 04, 2021, 15:03:18 pm
The thing is Grange, as you rightly point out, there's nothing in the Trust's latest statement that the council won't already know. So once again I'm left scratching my head at what this statement was supposed to achieve; all it's likely to do is raise questions amongst the wider electorate who won't look any deeper than the headline but will then be left with the impression that our current owners are following in the footsteps of the previous ones.

The council, rightly, has to make sure this deal is the right one for the town. Stirring the pot by throwing out dubious looking numbers without any context increases the public scrutiny of the deal, which in turn ensures the council will have to take even more time analysing the deal because they have yet another set of watertight justifications they have to pull together before they can agree to anything.

So again, what was the intended motivation for throwing this statement out there? I just genuinely don't see how the Trust thought this would help anything. It just muddies the waters even further.  The Trust just seem to act in the moment with no long term strategic thought. They need to learn that the best way to clear muddy waters is to do nothing and let it settle, not by wading in to it with your size 10 wellies.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 04, 2021, 15:12:50 pm
GPC, your not daft and I respect your views. In an ideal world what is your personal view on how this should go?

What standard should the stand be finished to?

How should the debt be repaid?

What financial conditions should the club operate under if it is to not be in debt to the owners, operate within its means?

What would be the acceptable circumstances in which the owners embark on an exit strategy, because I donít believe for one minute you think itís a pound?

If the owners have pocketed moneys from the 5U Sport deal surreptitiously, what reasonable explanation could there be for that not being challenged in the courts? Otherwise it either got paid back or was never paid in the first place and what would be the issue with either of those outcomes?

As I have stated even when accounting for inflation, I suspect the owners have put more capital into the club than any owners in the clubís history. Given this comparative measure, is the amount of criticism really justified?

I accept you are in a challenging position also being on the Board, so if you feel you donít want to answer at this point then fair enough. I only ask for the sake of debate and donít intend to try and put you in an awkward situation.

No worries Melly.....unfortunately the CLub is not starting from the position where I would like it to start from! The answers i'd give if we weren't £7m in debt to our owners would be different to those i'd give now!

What standard? TBH i'd probably do without the boxes at the present time...... simple maths would say that 18 boxes selling for £10k a season each would gross 180k....take off running and operating costs and VAT whats left? 80-100k a season tops? To coin a phrase I don't believe its "financially prudent" to build them as they're not going to pay themselves back for at least 10 years. I would agree thought that conferencing/banqueting suites would, if marketed well, bring in more money than the boxes.
I would certainly like to see a capacity increase in the ground, more than is being proposed currently. With a capacity increase then more imaginative marketing could take place to attract fans, and dareisay even a reduction in ticket prices across the board would bring in more fans (something that Bradford did for example)

Operating within its means? Well football needs a reset in my opinion. Wages must be brought down across the board....therefore costs will go down and profits will go up. Like I said though that has to be across the board. There would be no point in us cutting a million off our wage bill if everyone else stayed the same.
Some clubs have managed to turn a profit.....not very many granted.... but we should be looking at what Lincoln did....how after averaging 2000 and going down to non-league did they haul themselves back into the league with gates of 10000 and challenging for promotion to the Championship. When we had those two games there a couple of years ago (in the FA Cup and League close together) what struck me was how much was actually going on around the ground on matchday, how their program was full of support from local companies, how the fans have got behind the team.....if they can do it....!!

Exit strategy? Unfortunately we are backed into a corner and the only way out of it is for the owners to get their deal with the council, get their debts back and disappear, and yes, once they've paid themselves the £7m back then why not a pound? There may even be some land left for the club to profit from rather than the owners.

The 5USports thing has always puzzled me! On paper it seems like the owners sold out for £6.68m, of which they personally made £1.1m each. There is no paperwork registered anywhere to say that they "bought" back the shares, only a charge registered with Companies house which was satisfied when they acquired the shares back in repayment for a £1.1m loan that BDJ made to the club in January 2018. If a legal charge was made and in effect 5U defaulted there would be no comeback at all.....what could they do? They didn't come up with the money so lost their shares. No legal grounds for a challenge despite this article from the end of March 2018....
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/chinese-investors-claim-they-are-still-major-stakeholders-cobblers-despite-apparent-split-309497

What was interesting from that is that they claimed they had bought 100% of the shares, not the 60% reported by the club, and that they provided TWO share purchase certificates (not the one reported by the club) to the value of "around £4.3m" (which when added to the 1.1m each also paid to KT and DB brings you nicely up to the reported £6.6m total figure)
 
Capital I don't dispute that they have put in more money/capital/call it what you will, but should them putting in over £6m and us still being a League 2 club with a still not finished stand be celebrated? What other business could you pump so much money into for so little output? And if that 6m is only the money they got from the Chinese and in effect is not "new money" then it changes the picture slightly IMO.

I've tried to answer those questions based on my personal feelings rather than with my Trust hat on......there is obviously some crossover but that's to be expected I guess.

As a fan of Northampton Town Football Club I can't wait for the day when the football club is about the football club and its fans, rather than being a sideshow to a land deal. We've been in this boat for far too long now, under the Cardozas and now with the present incumbents. Almost 20 years of little progress and big distractions....all a bit tiring!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 04, 2021, 15:21:05 pm
CJ, they went to the wall and we were days from extinction. That is no example on how to run the club. My take is they tightened the purse strings on an empty purse.
I was talking about the period in the middle of their tenure, after they had given up on Championship football and before they skillfully engineered the loan, it's disappearance together with the asset stripping of anything not screwed down, and the subsequent deal with the present owners.
My point remains, I'm unconvinced a club with our pre covid turnover needed to have gotten itself into the 6 million pounds worth of debt that it has with nothing to show for it, but I  accept that it was absolutely the owners prerogative to do so.
Just my opinion.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 15:46:55 pm
Do you think thatís a good deal for the club?

Not particularly but what else is on offer?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 15:50:03 pm
The thing is Grange, as you rightly point out, there's nothing in the Trust's latest statement that the council won't already know. So once again I'm left scratching my head at what this statement was supposed to achieve; all it's likely to do is raise questions amongst the wider electorate who won't look any deeper than the headline but will then be left with the impression that our current owners are following in the footsteps of the previous ones.

The council, rightly, has to make sure this deal is the right one for the town. Stirring the pot by throwing out dubious looking numbers without any context increases the public scrutiny of the deal, which in turn ensures the council will have to take even more time analysing the deal because they have yet another set of watertight justifications they have to pull together before they can agree to anything.

So again, what was the intended motivation for throwing this statement out there? I just genuinely don't see how the Trust thought this would help anything. It just muddies the waters even further.  The Trust just seem to act in the moment with no long term strategic thought. They need to learn that the best way to clear muddy waters is to do nothing and let it settle, not by wading in to it with your size 10 wellies.

Very well put.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Risdene on July 04, 2021, 16:04:09 pm
There is £millions of pounds worth of enabling land, sometimes when you havenít got a clue about something itís best to be quiet 🤫
But you don't!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 16:12:31 pm
I'm surprised - you profess to be a bit of a businessman but virtually all "investment" of this nature is via a mechanism of director loans

......maybe you could give me a couple of scenarios where they could actually get that capital back - I can think of 2 - one possible the other most unlikely.

One might suggest historically such monies were recovered by theft but I think that option has probably disappeared  ::)
In the context of the quote I was referring to, my statement is correct.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 16:16:36 pm
In the context of the quote I was referring to, my statement is correct.

Ö. but back to the actual questions

What are possible scenarios where directors recover their loans?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 04, 2021, 16:25:01 pm
Oh my god, the Trust are trying to tell you that the club is VERY close to going to the wall and still you slag them off!
KT shows you some fŻcking CGIs he had for the last couple of years and you think heís the fŻckin messiah.
The enabling land around Sixseats is the only way in the short term that we could expand the ground and get 24/7 revenue from conference facilities and a hotel.
You lot would be happy for the current owners to bodge up the hideous east stand, up our debt to £10m, pay it off with the land profit and the fuÁk off with whatís left?
Unbelievable

In my first words, it is pathetic.

It highlights absolutely nothing that is not already in the public domain and common knowledge. It offers no alternatives. It is merely a commentary on the obvious.

The whole world could tell you, that like most clubs we are teetering on the edge financially. But they can't/wonít find a buyer, they certainly wonít sell it for a quid, and they are hell bent on pursuing the land. So yesÖ Another exercise in stating the obvious, albeit from a well meaning source, offers absolutely no solace.

We was promised a big reveal, huge revelation, but most of all the epic unveiling of the much fabled ďtruth and oilĒ tale of wholesale corruption. What we got, was a wet fart and all the gusto of an asthmatic sloth.  

Frankly I am totally underwhelmed. ButÖ. Thank you for telling me that I should be relying on the Trust as an aide memoir, rather than an innovative alternative to the status quo.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 17:22:47 pm
Hahahahaha the owners havenít put capital into the club they have loaned it FFS and given they arenít going to write it off they will expect that capital back.

Thatís what investors do though, what are peoples realistic expectations?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 17:33:21 pm
No worries Melly.....unfortunately the CLub is not starting from the position where I would like it to start from! The answers i'd give if we weren't £7m in debt to our owners would be different to those i'd give now!

What standard? TBH i'd probably do without the boxes at the present time...... simple maths would say that 18 boxes selling for £10k a season each would gross 180k....take off running and operating costs and VAT whats left? 80-100k a season tops? To coin a phrase I don't believe its "financially prudent" to build them as they're not going to pay themselves back for at least 10 years. I would agree thought that conferencing/banqueting suites would, if marketed well, bring in more money than the boxes.
I would certainly like to see a capacity increase in the ground, more than is being proposed currently. With a capacity increase then more imaginative marketing could take place to attract fans, and dareisay even a reduction in ticket prices across the board would bring in more fans (something that Bradford did for example)

Operating within its means? Well football needs a reset in my opinion. Wages must be brought down across the board....therefore costs will go down and profits will go up. Like I said though that has to be across the board. There would be no point in us cutting a million off our wage bill if everyone else stayed the same.
Some clubs have managed to turn a profit.....not very many granted.... but we should be looking at what Lincoln did....how after averaging 2000 and going down to non-league did they haul themselves back into the league with gates of 10000 and challenging for promotion to the Championship. When we had those two games there a couple of years ago (in the FA Cup and League close together) what struck me was how much was actually going on around the ground on matchday, how their program was full of support from local companies, how the fans have got behind the team.....if they can do it....!!

Exit strategy? Unfortunately we are backed into a corner and the only way out of it is for the owners to get their deal with the council, get their debts back and disappear, and yes, once they've paid themselves the £7m back then why not a pound? There may even be some land left for the club to profit from rather than the owners.

The 5USports thing has always puzzled me! On paper it seems like the owners sold out for £6.68m, of which they personally made £1.1m each. There is no paperwork registered anywhere to say that they "bought" back the shares, only a charge registered with Companies house which was satisfied when they acquired the shares back in repayment for a £1.1m loan that BDJ made to the club in January 2018. If a legal charge was made and in effect 5U defaulted there would be no comeback at all.....what could they do? They didn't come up with the money so lost their shares. No legal grounds for a challenge despite this article from the end of March 2018....
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/chinese-investors-claim-they-are-still-major-stakeholders-cobblers-despite-apparent-split-309497

What was interesting from that is that they claimed they had bought 100% of the shares, not the 60% reported by the club, and that they provided TWO share purchase certificates (not the one reported by the club) to the value of "around £4.3m" (which when added to the 1.1m each also paid to KT and DB brings you nicely up to the reported £6.6m total figure)
 
Capital I don't dispute that they have put in more money/capital/call it what you will, but should them putting in over £6m and us still being a League 2 club with a still not finished stand be celebrated? What other business could you pump so much money into for so little output? And if that 6m is only the money they got from the Chinese and in effect is not "new money" then it changes the picture slightly IMO.

I've tried to answer those questions based on my personal feelings rather than with my Trust hat on......there is obviously some crossover but that's to be expected I guess.

As a fan of Northampton Town Football Club I can't wait for the day when the football club is about the football club and its fans, rather than being a sideshow to a land deal. We've been in this boat for far too long now, under the Cardozas and now with the present incumbents. Almost 20 years of little progress and big distractions....all a bit tiring!
Thanks GPC, some reasonable points, not quite my view on some but reasonable just the same. There is one that I think is a bit unrealistic though. To expect a businessman to put 7 million in over a 6 or 7 year period and then take a pound return on it isnít really viable is it. Hardly a great advert for attracting new investment either, Iím really concerned about the post Thomas era though,


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 04, 2021, 17:43:31 pm
I really donít mean this as a dig at the Trust. But do they genuinely operate on a level of arrogance, that really affords them the status to knock out that whimper of a statement as news, without the obvious expectation that it would meet at best indifference, and at worst frustration and anger.

It riles me so much, that some people have the sheer temerity to just assume that we are all basking in ignorance. They are so wide of the mark, they are in the next county. We know the club owes perilous amounts of money. We are ALL concerned about this. This concern is not the preserve of a select few who have formed a mutual appreciation society, rather than a representative body. It concerns us all.

KT and DB have had designs on the land from the start. That was ALWAYS a given. They can build whoever they want. We ALL know that. The club has millions of debt stacked against it. We ALL knew that. Everything isnít rosey. We ALL know that. Thereís a bit of a trend developing here.. But the one answer none of us know, is what the fcuk to do about it.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 17:49:48 pm
But you don't!
Mate honestly, you really donít have a clue.............do you?
Seriously have you read and understood what the trust have posted, no need for insults, just answer the question, then we can have a sensible debate.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 17:55:31 pm
Thatís what investors do though, what are peoples realistic expectations?
Thatís the whole point Melly, people are talking about KT and DB investing their money in the club, they are loaning it and will get it back from the land deal.
That money is the clubs, do you think £10m debt is good value for a few exec boxes and 200 seats?
I have no problem in them making money, but when itís so much in the favour of the investors itís not right.
All the Trust are doing is lobbying the council to get the best deal for the club.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 04, 2021, 18:08:30 pm

All the Trust are doing is lobbying the council to get the best deal for the club.


I don't dispute that. I've never disputed the Trust act with the best intentions, I just don't think they are particularly astute to the point of naivety.

Unfortunately the most likely result of their meddling isn't "the best deal", it's "no deal", and then we really will be ****.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 18:12:12 pm
I don't dispute that. I've never disputed the Trust act with the best intentions, I just don't think they are particularly astute to the point of naivety.

Unfortunately the most likely result of their meddling isn't "the best deal", it's "no deal", and then we really will be ****.
I really donít think KT and DB will walk, they will never get their £7m loan back so I hope the council squeeze the  best deal for the club out of them.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 04, 2021, 18:40:09 pm
I really donít think KT and DB will walk, they will never get their £7m loan back so I hope the council squeeze the  best deal for the club out of them.

The council (rightly) won't give a toss about the best deal for the club. They will look at the best deal for themselves and their constituents. Yes, there's a certain kudos in having a football league club and I don't think the council will do anything to actively harm the club, but you have to look at the history here. First they built the ground and were then rubbished for being unambitious, then there's the whole loan debacle after which they frankly pulled a blinder in getting us out of the mire, for which they are still dealing with the repercussions.

Every time they've put themselves out there for us they've been stung and I'd be amazed if they were prepared to do so yet again.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 19:20:38 pm
But the one answer none of us know, is what the fcuk to do about it.


.....or indeed in most cases can't do anything about it -  so unfortunately the preserve of a vocal few is to be critical of those in a position to do something (absolutely their right), but without offering any viable plan B.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 19:32:14 pm
Thatís the whole point Melly, people are talking about KT and DB investing their money in the club, they are loaning it and will get it back from the land deal.What part of Director loans do you not understand - you repeatedly don't answer any question when asked how they can be recovered because you know full well there are only two realistic options - the land deal (which you don't like because you speculate they are making too much money for themselves or someone buys the club and takes over the debt which you know is unlikely - there is no other option on them ever getting their money back but there is the option of them walking, getting nothing and the club dies so until you and your cohorts come up with a viable plan I'll stick with supporting (and agreed, a far from perfect) land deal
That money is the clubs, do you think £10m debt is good value for a few exec boxes and 200 seats?Of course not but you are deliberately making misleading comments because you know the East Stand is costed at about 3 million the rest is the operating costs for the last 6 years
I have no problem in them making money, but when itís so much in the favour of the investors itís not right.Fair point but you, me nor the trust have any idea how much money is potentially being made
All the Trust are doing is lobbying the council to get the best deal for the club.Issuing a couple of Sh!te stirring press releases is not my definition of lobbying - if they are doing such "offline" why no consultation with the membership



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: DrillingCobbler on July 04, 2021, 19:37:43 pm
I believe that the best outcome for everyone concerned, is that the 'deal' goes through, stand sorted prior to land development commencing, owner debt gets cleared and is debt free....then profit is split 2 ways. As I see it, there is absolutely no way that anyone can control which way the football clubs 'share of the profits' goes, ie on more development/players or in the owners personal account. If it stays in the clubs accounts, then it makes no difference given those accounts are controlled by the owners who...own the football club!

So for me, its a simple case of going round in circles. If the deal doesn't go through, then we remain 7 million in debt or whatever it is, with the East Stand remaining as it is. Thereafter, what happens, we wont know until that time arrives...

Im not convinced that publicly scrutinising the deal on the table is going to achieve anything, other than a stalling of a decision being made (potentially).

We are in the hands of KT and DB, some people don't like that, some people do like that, some people are indifferent. But the fact remains, they hold the keys to the future of NTFC. They haven't got any history of 'wrong doing', so as I type this I'm clearly alot more relaxed about the situation than the Trust is. That doesn't make me right or wrong. I *think* on occasions some people are determined to convince all and sundry that we are deep high in the sh1t, because thats how they personally view things.

Backofthenet sums up where Im at, I could have written all of his posts. Probably not with his high level of grammar though!  ;D





Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 04, 2021, 19:42:27 pm
I believe that the best outcome for everyone concerned, is that the 'deal' goes through, stand sorted prior to land development commencing, owner debt gets cleared and is debt free....then profit is split 2 ways. As I see it, there is absolutely no way that anyone can control which way the football clubs 'share of the profits' goes, ie on more development/players or in the owners personal account. If it stays in the clubs accounts, then it makes no difference given those accounts are controlled by the owners who...own the football club!

So for me, its a simple case of going round in circles. If the deal doesn't go through, then we remain 7 million in debt or whatever it is, with the East Stand remaining as it is. Thereafter, what happens, we wont know until that time arrives...

Im not convinced that publicly scrutinising the deal on the table is going to achieve anything, other than a stalling of a decision being made (potentially).

We are in the hands of KT and DB, some people don't like that, some people do like that, some people are indifferent. But the fact remains, they hold the keys to the future of NTFC. They haven't got any history of 'wrong doing', so as I type this I'm clearly alot more relaxed about the situation than the Trust is. That doesn't make me right or wrong. I *think* on occasions some people are determined to convince all and sundry that we are deep high in the sh1t, because thats how they personally view things.

Backofthenet sums up where Im at, I could have written all of his posts. Probably not with his high level of grammar though!  ;D





I was just thinking how similar this is to my view and then I reached the last paragraph and saw we both recognised that!  I think you're being hard on yourself over your grammar though.  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 20:36:04 pm

I am not sure why you would put anything to the vote of the trust members, I would say that 90% donít understand whatís going on, thatís obvious from the comments on here. Its totally understandable as well as it is complicated to say the least.
What would your thoughts be if KT and DB hadnít spent a penny of their own money?
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE £6.7M CHINESE MONEY?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 04, 2021, 21:08:57 pm

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE £6.7M CHINESE MONEY?

Funny money mate - yes thereís some reference to shares being bought and sold but as Iím sure you know if these are unlisted shares the reality of the finances are somewhat murky and may or may not have any value.

For me this whole thing is not a battle about whose right or wrong - I simply want to move forward and despite it being far from the redevelopment we all hoped for a deal on the land, the dreadful East Stand at least improved- and possibly the club deficit reduced are all positives for me and frankly if all that happens i donít care if KT and DB make a little or a lot of money- at the end of the day they were the guys that were there 6 years ago seeing an opportunity.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 04, 2021, 21:31:26 pm
What would your thoughts be if KT and DB hadnít spent a penny of their own money?
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE £6.7M CHINESE MONEY?

I would thinkÖ How astute of them.

I would thinkÖ So what

If I thought as a few do, that something dodgy has gone onÖ Notify the authorities. Present my evidence and let them decide.

What I wouldnít do, is spend months playing Chinese whispers (excuse the pun). **** footing around on message boards and in WMC's peddling bollox about it. I wouldnít call journalists from newspapers and TV stations trying to get them to do my dirty work. I wouldnít sit with and call councillors and try umpteenth times to discredit someone.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 04, 2021, 21:36:46 pm
I believe that the best outcome for everyone concerned, is that the 'deal' goes through, stand sorted prior to land development commencing, owner debt gets cleared and is debt free....then profit is split 2 ways. As I see it, there is absolutely no way that anyone can control which way the football clubs 'share of the profits' goes, ie on more development/players or in the owners personal account. If it stays in the clubs accounts, then it makes no difference given those accounts are controlled by the owners who...own the football club!

So for me, its a simple case of going round in circles. If the deal doesn't go through, then we remain 7 million in debt or whatever it is, with the East Stand remaining as it is. Thereafter, what happens, we wont know until that time arrives...

Im not convinced that publicly scrutinising the deal on the table is going to achieve anything, other than a stalling of a decision being made (potentially).

We are in the hands of KT and DB, some people don't like that, some people do like that, some people are indifferent. But the fact remains, they hold the keys to the future of NTFC. They haven't got any history of 'wrong doing', so as I type this I'm clearly alot more relaxed about the situation than the Trust is. That doesn't make me right or wrong. I *think* on occasions some people are determined to convince all and sundry that we are deep high in the sh1t, because thats how they personally view things.

Backofthenet sums up where Im at, I could have written all of his posts. Probably not with his high level of grammar though!  ;D





I have said, from as far back as 18 months into their tenure. Give them the land. The responsibility of how the deal is cut, and how NTC benefit from it in the future, lies with the council. Are people really starting to catch on to the need to lobby the council about an appropriate deal now??

I sat at the meeting at KPWMC which Nunn attended, stating that the Trust needed to turn its attention away from being amateur sleuths, to dealing with the Council to ensure a fair deal for all. Now its a fcuking revelation 😂😂😂


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 21:39:16 pm
Agreement deal on the land development is achieved between the club and the council.
East Stand is completed.
Land is redeveloped.
KT and DB are repaid their £10m+ 'investor' loan, from the club share of the land deal, when completed.
Club has nil debt.
Club receive increased income from the East Stand facilities, the increased seating and the ongoing club share of the land deal subsequent income.

It's not a quick fix, how long will it take to achieve that following the initial Land development agreement? (the start line)
I would guess that we are looking at anything up to 5 years? Or am I being optimistic?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: lordjord on July 04, 2021, 22:09:49 pm


But
Agreement deal on the land development is achieved between the club and the council.
East Stand is completed.
Land is redeveloped.
KT and DB are repaid their £10m+ 'investor' loan, from the club share of the land deal, when completed.
Club has nil debt.
Club receive increased income from the East Stand facilities, the increased seating and the ongoing club share of the land deal subsequent income.

It's not a quick fix, how long will it take to achieve that following the initial Land development agreement? (the start line)
I would guess that we are looking at anything up to 5 years? Or am I being optimistic?


I am beyond clueless when it comes to all of this, but if the result of the land sale / development is that KT/DB get their money back and I assume a small profit and that some of this money is also used to extend the capacity of the ground (away end I assume) would that not be an ideal result?

No idea how much the land / development is worth and or could generate though.


Also I am sure that we are losing 1m per season currently. Assuming we have roughly 26 home games a season with cups included, thats just under 40k per game. At an average of £20 per ticket (not taking into consideration the kids that go for free etc) we would need to bring in 1900 extra fans per home game as it stands to break even. Considering some may spend more at the ground also we could drop the number down, how can we attract more fans to the ground? Sadly a winning team on its own does not seem to do it.

When I go to Sixfields to watch a game I dont go that early before kick off, dont spend cash at the stadium. I like the idea of fan parks etc but what as fans could we put together to increase bums on seats and the spend of us fans when at the ground?

Didnt know where to put this and it may have been covered elsewhere, apologies if so?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 04, 2021, 22:37:17 pm
I would thinkÖ How astute of them.

I would thinkÖ So what

If I thought as a few do, that something dodgy has gone onÖ Notify the authorities. Present my evidence and let them decide.

What I wouldnít do, is spend months playing Chinese whispers (excuse the pun). **** footing around on message boards and in WMC's peddling bollox about it. I wouldnít call journalists from newspapers and TV stations trying to get them to do my dirty work. I wouldnít sit with and call councillors and try umpteenth times to discredit someone.
You seem to know fŻcking everything in hindsight yet do fŻck all about it !
I like you Tel but I really do but I donít understand your bile for the Trust?
If they pÓssed you off, god knows how many years ago just come out with it instead of pŻssyfooting around on a message board trying to bad mouth them?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 04, 2021, 23:43:07 pm
Thatís the whole point Melly, people are talking about KT and DB investing their money in the club, they are loaning it and will get it back from the land deal.
That money is the clubs, do you think £10m debt is good value for a few exec boxes and 200 seats?
I have no problem in them making money, but when itís so much in the favour of the investors itís not right.
All the Trust are doing is lobbying the council to get the best deal for the club.

Flip the scenario and view it from the opposite angle. The owners were not supporters and had no love for the club. They stepped in and debate over 5U aside have put in what will be 10 million over 7 years or so and countless man hours. Forgetting any emotional attachment to the club and as purely a business deal what would you be happy with? Given the risk involved and the unpredictability of sport to make it worth my while I would probably want the opportunity to make 3 times my initial outlay plus my money back, minimum. Thatís 40 million, but it is of course subjective. What about you, if this was your money and it wasnít a football club but something else what would you be happy with at the front end given the very real risk you could spunk the lot? However in their shoes it would be irrelevant by now because I would have had a heart attack.

Additionally people talk about the revenue the stand will generate. Well there is absolutely nothing that convinces me at this point that it will generate anything irrespective of what happens with the capacity. Filling Exec boxes on a Tuesday night against Sutton or Newport, no chance. Forget the extra seats for the same reason. GPC talks about Lincoln and fair enough. I think about statistical probabilities and according to that it ainít happening. All this is likely to achieve is to improve the appearance of the ground at best and we have done our money making the place look nice, a bit like the wifeís new ornament. I would rather the money from any land deal was spent on stuff around the ground that would generate income and was structured so it couldnít be sold. The only way to secure the future of the club is to diversify spread your risk and income streams otherwise you may end up looking at an empty shell earning nothing with us in the conference. Yes itís possible we could move forward, but itís also possible we could go backwards. Everybody is arguing about Thomas and Bower and what they will make. Well forget that, they are going to make as much as they possibly can and why wouldnít they. Ultimately that is the main reason they are here at all. Meanwhile we are all arguing over a poxy stand that in all probability will achieve nothing and lead to nothing. We are a football club totally reliant on people through the turnstiles and handouts and thatís the problem right there. If the ground was the catalyst for success then Sunderland, MK you know the list, yes there are success stories but whatís most likely? If we really want to change and give ourselves a chance we have to be smarter and revolutionaries. Weíve got a Trust board obsessed with rejection, a support base obsessed with a folly and a club sitting right where it started with probably no improvement on the horizon. My prediction is that we are going to end up disappointed with the final outcome along with Thomas, Bower, the council and everyone else involved. Thatís my view mate anyway, I get your frustration but I think we all are.

As a footnote I used to argue with my old man about the club all the way to the ground and back again. Managers, players, owners, the ground, the food, the pitch, all that money on a roof and you still get wet. I could go on and on. Still loved each other though, think about it?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 00:12:03 am
Flip the scenario and view it from the opposite angle. The owners were not supporters and had no love for the club. They stepped in and debate over 5U aside have put in what will be 10 million over 7 years or so and countless man hours. Forgetting any emotional attachment to the club and as purely a business deal what would you be happy with? Given the risk involved and the unpredictability of sport to make it worth my while I would probably want the opportunity to make 3 times my initial outlay plus my money back, minimum. Thatís 40 million, but it is of course subjective. What about you, if this was your money and it wasnít a football club but something else what would you be happy with at the front end given the very real risk you could spunk the lot? However in their shoes it would be irrelevant by now because I would have had a heart attack.

Additionally people talk about the revenue the stand will generate. Well there is absolutely nothing that convinces me at this point that it will generate anything irrespective of what happens with the capacity. Filling Exec boxes on a Tuesday night against Sutton or Newport, no chance. Forget the extra seats for the same reason. GPC talks about Lincoln and fair enough. I think about statistical probabilities and according to that it ainít happening. All this is likely to achieve is to improve the appearance of the ground at best and we have done our money making the place look nice, a bit like the wifeís new ornament. I would rather the money from any land deal was spent on stuff around the ground that would generate income and was structured so it couldnít be sold. The only way to secure the future of the club is to diversify spread your risk and income streams otherwise you may end up looking at an empty shell earning nothing with us in the conference. Yes itís possible we could move forward, but itís also possible we could go backwards. Everybody is arguing about Thomas and Bower and what they will make. Well forget that, they are going to make as much as they possibly can and why wouldnít they. Ultimately that is the main reason they are here at all. Meanwhile we are all arguing over a poxy stand that in all probability will achieve nothing and lead to nothing. We are a football club totally reliant on people through the turnstiles and handouts and thatís the problem right there. If the ground was the catalyst for success then Sunderland, MK you know the list, yes there are success stories but whatís most likely? If we really want to change and give ourselves a chance we have to be smarter and revolutionaries. Weíve got a Trust board obsessed with rejection, a support base obsessed with a folly and a club sitting right where it started with probably no improvement on the horizon. My prediction is that we are going to end up disappointed with the final outcome along with Thomas, Bower, the council and everyone else involved. Thatís my view mate anyway, I get your frustration but I think we all are.

As a footnote I used to argue with my old man about the club all the way to the ground and back again. Managers, players, owners, the ground, the food, the pitch, all that money on a roof and you still get wet. I could go on and on. Still loved each other though, think about it?

Can't argue with any of that really........


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 01:48:29 am
Can't argue with any of that really........
Sorry mate Iím on a roll now. Case study number 1. Sunderland, playing at Roker Park, atmospheric but dilapidated. Build the fabulous Stadium of Light to really kick on to the next level and well erÖÖ
Case study number 2. Wimbledon, playing in the Prem and even win the FA cup. Despite this move lock stock and barrel to MK and build a fabulous new ground to kick on to the next level and end up exactly in the same division as the Phoenix club that sprung up to replace them. Fcuk me, you couldnít make it up.
No 3 Derby and Pride Park, well, erÖÖ
No 4 ÖÖ

I know there are positive examples but statistically what are the chances of the East Stand in any design you can think of taking the club forward. My advice before itís too late is for the board of the Trust to settle their differences with the owners, sit down with the club and the council and be part of a process of regeneration for the area and get some assets that will generate real income as part of any deal again before itís too late. The stand can wait.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Steve Massive Massey on July 05, 2021, 05:28:42 am
Sorry mate Iím on a role now. Case study number 1. Sunderland, playing at Roker Park, atmospheric but dilapidated. Build the fabulous Stadium of Light to really kick on to the next level and well erÖÖ
Case study number 2. Wimbledon, playing in the Prem and even win the FA cup. Despite this move lock stock and barrel to MK and build a fabulous new ground to kick on to the next level and end up exactly in the same division as the Phoenix club that sprung up to replace them. Fcuk me, you couldnít make it up.
No 3 Derby and Pride Park, well, erÖÖ
No 4 ÖÖ

I know there are positive examples but statistically what are the chances of the East Stand in any design you can think of taking the club forward. My advice before itís too late is for the board of the Trust to settle their differences with the owners, sit down with the club and the council and be part of a process of regeneration for the area and get some assets that will generate real income as part of any deal again before itís too late. The stand can wait.

Take a breath Melly. Having some pitch facing hospitality in the first time of the clubs history is not quite Stadium MK but we take your point.

The Trust - A few men and women with beer bellies, well intentioned but ultimately clueless, telling experienced business investors how to make money. Its all a bit of a joke really.

Apart form an emergency bus replacement and £10k to help out during covid, where are the millions the Trust have raised to take the club forward or even take it over? ;D

Surely they should create a successful business, aligned to the football club first before they tell others what to do with their money?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 07:34:48 am
Take a breath Melly. Having some pitch facing hospitality in the first time of the clubs history is not quite Stadium MK but we take your point.

The Trust - A few men and women with beer bellies, well intentioned but ultimately clueless, telling experienced business investors how to make money. Its all a bit of a joke really.

Apart form an emergency bus replacement and £10k to help out during covid, where are the millions the Trust have raised to take the club forward or even take it over? ;D

Surely they should create a successful business, aligned to the football club first before they tell others what to do with their money?


Think about what you could do though Steven if the club were to have a stake in the development of the area. Hotel/casino, purpose built training and rehabilitation facilities for all 3 Northampton professional sports clubs who all work together. Why is it football, Rugby or Cricket when you can go to all 3? What about a season ticket offering for that with all 3 pushing to raise profiles, something to get business and sponsors excited. Specialist retail, restaurants owned by the club with match day functions. Quality food delivered direct to the back of stand collection points during the game all ordered via smart phone app, instead of gulping down boiled burgers and bovril that you have had to queue 20 minutes for at half time. The stage at the back of the North, the possibilities and options are endless. Make the land money work for the club and recruit some people to develop the alternative commercial opportunities. But no, itís corporate boxes destined to be half used and plastic seats that wonít see an arse more than twice in 3 months. Fcuk me and people wonder why weíre going backwards, whereís the imagination and drive? The Club, Council, Trust, Saints and even the CCC could all work together along with the Council to regenerate the whole area. Given the proximity of the Saints to Sixfields and the land in question/money involved what a golden opportunity to kill about 8 birds with one stone. Do up the East Stand with a car park my ar5e, it will be a new bus stop next just to be really progressive. What a fcuking waste, and people wonder why weíre in debt. FFS do something different that will get people excited and get the Council up off their backsides to work positively and finally promote and progress the town. Iím going for a lie down.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 08:31:13 am
I am not sure why you would put anything to the vote of the trust members, I would say that 90% donít understand whatís going on, thatís obvious from the comments on here. Its totally understandable as well as it is complicated to say the least.
What would your thoughts be if KT and DB hadnít spent a penny of their own money?
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE £6.7M CHINESE MONEY?

What Chinese money? The only money to come from China was to purchase shares, it was not money meant to be going to the club it was money for the selling share holders. Something happened with 5U Sports and they obviously could not meet the terms of the takeover and the shares were then sold back to the original shareholders. So you need to understand THERE NEVER WAS ANY CHINESE MONEY


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 08:45:09 am
Flip the scenario and view it from the opposite angle. The owners were not supporters and had no love for the club. They stepped in and debate over 5U aside have put in what will be 10 million over 7 years or so and countless man hours. Forgetting any emotional attachment to the club and as purely a business deal what would you be happy with? Given the risk involved and the unpredictability of sport to make it worth my while I would probably want the opportunity to make 3 times my initial outlay plus my money back, minimum. Thatís 40 million, but it is of course subjective. What about you, if this was your money and it wasnít a football club but something else what would you be happy with at the front end given the very real risk you could spunk the lot? However in their shoes it would be irrelevant by now because I would have had a heart attack.

Additionally people talk about the revenue the stand will generate. Well there is absolutely nothing that convinces me at this point that it will generate anything irrespective of what happens with the capacity. Filling Exec boxes on a Tuesday night against Sutton or Newport, no chance. Forget the extra seats for the same reason. GPC talks about Lincoln and fair enough. I think about statistical probabilities and according to that it ainít happening. All this is likely to achieve is to improve the appearance of the ground at best and we have done our money making the place look nice, a bit like the wifeís new ornament. I would rather the money from any land deal was spent on stuff around the ground that would generate income and was structured so it couldnít be sold. The only way to secure the future of the club is to diversify spread your risk and income streams otherwise you may end up looking at an empty shell earning nothing with us in the conference. Yes itís possible we could move forward, but itís also possible we could go backwards. Everybody is arguing about Thomas and Bower and what they will make. Well forget that, they are going to make as much as they possibly can and why wouldnít they. Ultimately that is the main reason they are here at all. Meanwhile we are all arguing over a poxy stand that in all probability will achieve nothing and lead to nothing. We are a football club totally reliant on people through the turnstiles and handouts and thatís the problem right there. If the ground was the catalyst for success then Sunderland, MK you know the list, yes there are success stories but whatís most likely? If we really want to change and give ourselves a chance we have to be smarter and revolutionaries. Weíve got a Trust board obsessed with rejection, a support base obsessed with a folly and a club sitting right where it started with probably no improvement on the horizon. My prediction is that we are going to end up disappointed with the final outcome along with Thomas, Bower, the council and everyone else involved. Thatís my view mate anyway, I get your frustration but I think we all are.

As a footnote I used to argue with my old man about the club all the way to the ground and back again. Managers, players, owners, the ground, the food, the pitch, all that money on a roof and you still get wet. I could go on and on. Still loved each other though, think about it?
So using the Wimbledon example, for those who cant contemplate the possibility of 'outsiders' with no connection to the club making a fortune off the back of it, the only alternative to getting this deal over the line is a Phoenix club, and because like water football clubs find their own level, that isn't too bad a thing?
Is there anything in the timeline of events to suggest the aims of KT and DB are not exactly what they suggest, that they will see that the club itself rather than just them as owners will benefit from a land deal? Does the non signing of leases by KT or the apparent lack of transparency suggest otherwise? Can the council, along with the Trust put in place the neccessary legal framework to ensure that the club itself will benefit or is that simply down to the generosity and honesty of the owners?
Is that where NTFC is at right now?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 08:49:50 am
What Chinese money? The only money to come from China was to purchase shares, it was not money meant to be going to the club it was money for the selling share holders. Something happened with 5U Sports and they obviously could not meet the terms of the takeover and the shares were then sold back to the original shareholders. So you need to understand THERE NEVER WAS ANY CHINESE MONEY
😂😂😂😂 I THINK THERE WAS AND THE TRUST HAVE EVIDENCE.
maybe you should take a breath and read what the trust have written, money was transferred to BDJ and over a million was transferred to KT and DB according to the Trust, totalling £6.7m again according to the trustís statement. Now if that wasnít true I think legal process would have started donít you?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 05, 2021, 09:01:48 am
You seem to know fŻcking everything in hindsight yet do fŻck all about it !
I like you Tel but I really do but I donít understand your bile for the Trust?
If they pÓssed you off, god knows how many years ago just come out with it instead of pŻssyfooting around on a message board trying to bad mouth them?


It is a convenience to assume that the Trust pissed me off. As it is for people to resort to childish remarks about me being on NTFC's payroll. It is an attempt to distract from the fact that the Trust has got it wrong. And as much as some of the clubs practices need to be questioned, so does the behaviour of the Trust.

I enjoyed my time on the Trust board. I never ever pushed for any status on it. And I left it on very good terms. So, like most things, youíll find nothing there to fit yours and their agenda, to personal attacks on those who merely disagree with you.

I can only say what I have said all along. And please feel free to look back. The Trust in my opinion, went in totally the wrong direction. They should have postal canvassed their membership about their mandate. They should have minuted and made all meetings with the club and council clear to their membership. They should have taken the council to task about current lease expectations. They should have been instrumental in forming and open, but representative forum to meet with the council and outline the supports expectations regarding any future development. Including local residents and all stake holders.

None of the above has changed with me. Had they followed that simple democratic process, they would not be in the mess they are now. None that is hindsight. I have been saying it all for  years.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 05, 2021, 09:32:59 am
Itís all very well arguing the toss but the point remains that KT knows what actually occurred and could enlighten the supporters if he wished to.
Now the fan base has no board representation there is no way anything will be put out there unless Kelvin wants to.

This leads to the question
ĎDo fans who pay money to support the club have a right to know what is going oní

Thatís what it all boils down to for me.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Another Pedj on July 05, 2021, 10:01:07 am
Think about what you could do though Steven if the club were to have a stake in the development of the area. Hotel/casino, purpose built training and rehabilitation facilities for all 3 Northampton professional sports clubs who all work together. Why is it football, Rugby or Cricket when you can go to all 3? What about a season ticket offering for that with all 3 pushing to raise profiles, something to get business and sponsors excited. Specialist retail, restaurants owned by the club with match day functions. Quality food delivered direct to the back of stand collection points during the game all ordered via smart phone app, instead of gulping down boiled burgers and bovril that you have had to queue 20 minutes for at half time. The stage at the back of the North, the possibilities and options are endless. Make the land money work for the club and recruit some people to develop the alternative commercial opportunities. But no, itís corporate boxes destined to be half used and plastic seats that wonít see an arse more than twice in 3 months. Fcuk me and people wonder why weíre going backwards, whereís the imagination and drive? The Club, Council, Trust, Saints and even the CCC could all work together along with the Council to regenerate the whole area. Given the proximity of the Saints to Sixfields and the land in question/money involved what a golden opportunity to kill about 8 birds with one stone. Do up the East Stand with a car park my ar5e, it will be a new bus stop next just to be really progressive. What a fcuking waste, and people wonder why weíre in debt. FFS do something different that will get people excited and get the Council up off their backsides to work positively and finally promote and progress the town. Iím going for a lie down.

That is spot on.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 05, 2021, 10:21:36 am
Think about what you could do though Steven if the club were to have a stake in the development of the area. Hotel/casino, purpose built training and rehabilitation facilities for all 3 Northampton professional sports clubs who all work together. Why is it football, Rugby or Cricket when you can go to all 3? What about a season ticket offering for that with all 3 pushing to raise profiles, something to get business and sponsors excited. Specialist retail, restaurants owned by the club with match day functions. Quality food delivered direct to the back of stand collection points during the game all ordered via smart phone app, instead of gulping down boiled burgers and bovril that you have had to queue 20 minutes for at half time. The stage at the back of the North, the possibilities and options are endless. Make the land money work for the club and recruit some people to develop the alternative commercial opportunities. But no, itís corporate boxes destined to be half used and plastic seats that wonít see an arse more than twice in 3 months. Fcuk me and people wonder why weíre going backwards, whereís the imagination and drive? The Club, Council, Trust, Saints and even the CCC could all work together along with the Council to regenerate the whole area. Given the proximity of the Saints to Sixfields and the land in question/money involved what a golden opportunity to kill about 8 birds with one stone. Do up the East Stand with a car park my ar5e, it will be a new bus stop next just to be really progressive. What a fcuking waste, and people wonder why weíre in debt. FFS do something different that will get people excited and get the Council up off their backsides to work positively and finally promote and progress the town. Iím going for a lie down.


This hits the nail on the head.

Is there actually one cobblers fan that doesnít agree with this whichever camp/viewpoint youíre in?

If the current owners and council canít grasp this then may I humbly suggest that they both need to make way for others with the vision to progress things.

This imo is what the town need to come together on in order to bring change.

An 8,000 seater stadium is utterly pointless imo

Amended to sort the quote thingy out


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 05, 2021, 10:22:09 am
Itís all very well arguing the toss but the point remains that KT knows what actually occurred and could enlighten the supporters if he wished to.
Now the fan base has no board representation there is no way anything will be put out there unless Kelvin wants to.

This leads to the question
ĎDo fans who pay money to support the club have a right to know what is going oní

Thatís what it all boils down to for me.

No.. They donít have any rights to know the intricacies off the finances, unless they believe something untoward has occurred.  And as I said in my recent post. If you or anybody else has anything that suggests impropriety, report it to the relevant authorities.  

The money you pay, or in your case donít, only offers you the opportunity to view whatís on the pitch. There is no universe in which buying a season ticket gives you access to the running of the club. If you think otherwise, you need to examine the level of entitlement you afford yourself.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 05, 2021, 10:27:07 am
As usual Melbourne hits the nail on the head.

If you do nothing else, try to bypass the comedy that is playing in the background, and just bloody realise who the puppet master is here. The council own the b@stard ground. They own the lease. They will determine the development of the area. Why on the earth are they getting off Scott free?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 05, 2021, 10:59:19 am
😂😂😂😂 I THINK THERE WAS AND THE TRUST HAVE EVIDENCE.
maybe you should take a breath and read what the trust have written, money was transferred to BDJ and over a million was transferred to KT and DB according to the Trust, totalling £6.7m again according to the trustís statement. Now if that wasnít true I think legal process would have started donít you?

Ok, let's flip this one on its head?

If what you are saying is indeed true, and the Trust have proof of this, have they presented this to the relevant authorities?

If not,  why not?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 05, 2021, 11:06:11 am
Ok, let's flip this one on its head?

If what you are saying is indeed true, and the Trust have proof of this, have they presented this to the relevant authorities?

If not,  why not?
+1

If there is any evidence of wrongdoing that the trust is holding then they surely have an obligation to fans to report it.

Itís time to **** or get off the pot.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 05, 2021, 11:15:37 am
Agree here with Shoemaker for once, if the Trust have any evidence of wrongdoing, go to the Police, FA or EFL, its time for them to put up or shut up.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 11:18:59 am
As usual Melbourne hits the nail on the head.

If you do nothing else, try to bypass the comedy that is playing in the background, and just bloody realise who the puppet master is here. The council own the b@stard ground. They own the lease. They will determine the development of the area. Why on the earth are they getting off Scott free?



What do you mean by "Scott free"?

Melbournes plans sound so good on paper but seem to discount one rather important fact....the land is rubbish...quite literally rubbish!  If it was any good wouldn't it have been developed by now, prime position close to the motorway and all that?
It will cost many millions to bring it up to the standard where things such as Casinos and hotels could be built on it. Who pays for that? The Council as the land owner, CDNL as the leaseholder, or the ultimate buyers themselves?
The only bit of land that could be built upon is the Athletics track area as this has been "capped" already......and what does the Club Chairman want to put on it? A car park!! Forward thinking eh?

The only way that land is going to be worth anything is if mega money is spent on it, and lets be honest that's not going to happen, there's enough "ready" land around the town and the outskirts that can be developed on first.

I'm not sure what you want the Council to do Nigel.........


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 11:23:46 am
What do you mean by "Scott free"?

Melbournes plans sound so good on paper but seem to discount one rather important fact....the land is rubbish...quite literally rubbish!  If it was any good wouldn't it have been developed by now, prime position close to the motorway and all that?
It will cost many millions to bring it up to the standard where things such as Casinos and hotels could be built on it. Who pays for that? The Council as the land owner, CDNL as the leaseholder, or the ultimate buyers themselves?
The only bit of land that could be built upon is the Athletics track area as this has been "capped" already......and what does the Club Chairman want to put on it? A car park!! Forward thinking eh?

The only way that land is going to be worth anything is if mega money is spent on it, and lets be honest that's not going to happen, there's enough "ready" land around the town and the outskirts that can be developed on first.

I'm not sure what you want the Council to do Nigel.........

Why is the Club trying to take over the lease for development then?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 11:31:59 am
Why is the Club trying to take over the lease for development then?

"The club" believes it can sell the land on for development......it wants to buy the freehold for "best value" according to an independent valuation, and then sell it on to any interested parties...primarily for warehousing/logistics sheds.

That is a change from the originally proposed 50/50 split on the proceeds of the sale of the land which was the case in the NBC deal.

"The club" will pay an option agreement fee of £500k to enable the club to buy the land off NBC for the purposes of selling it on......if it doesn't get sold on that's where the phrase "Football club will take on any development risk" comes into play. ie "The club buys a parcel of land for £5m but only gets £4m from the sale of the land, or indeed can't sell it at all!

That's my understanding of the deal that is currently on the table.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 11:36:44 am
No.. They donít have any rights to know the intricacies off the finances, unless they believe something untoward has occurred.  And as I said in my recent post. If you or anybody else has anything that suggests impropriety, report it to the relevant authorities.  

The money you pay, or in your case donít, only offers you the opportunity to view whatís on the pitch. There is no universe in which buying a season ticket gives you access to the running of the club. If you think otherwise, you need to examine the level of entitlement you afford yourself.
'They dont have any rights to know the intricacies of the finances unless they believe something untoward has occured.'
Isnt what this is all about?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 11:37:48 am
"The club" believes it can sell the land on for development......it wants to buy the freehold for "best value" according to an independent valuation, and then sell it on to any interested parties...primarily for warehousing/logistics sheds.

That is a change from the originally proposed 50/50 split on the proceeds of the sale of the land which was the case in the NBC deal.

"The club" will pay an option agreement fee of £500k to enable the club to buy the land off NBC for the purposes of selling it on......if it doesn't get sold on that's where the phrase "Football club will take on any development risk" comes into play. ie "The club buys a parcel of land for £5m but only gets £4m from the sale of the land, or indeed can't sell it at all!

That's my understanding of the deal that is currently on the table.
I see, so the goalposts just moved. Thanks GPC.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 05, 2021, 11:40:37 am
What do you mean by "Scott free"?

Melbournes plans sound so good on paper but seem to discount one rather important fact....the land is rubbish...quite literally rubbish!  If it was any good wouldn't it have been developed by now, prime position close to the motorway and all that?
It will cost many millions to bring it up to the standard where things such as Casinos and hotels could be built on it. Who pays for that? The Council as the land owner, CDNL as the leaseholder, or the ultimate buyers themselves?
The only bit of land that could be built upon is the Athletics track area as this has been "capped" already......and what does the Club Chairman want to put on it? A car park!! Forward thinking eh?

The only way that land is going to be worth anything is if mega money is spent on it, and lets be honest that's not going to happen, there's enough "ready" land around the town and the outskirts that can be developed on first.

I'm not sure what you want the Council to do Nigel.........

Believe me GPC. At the risk of sounding arrogant. I know about that land. One thing for sure is, I know what can be built on it. Hence the council representative backtracking when I questioned him in a public meeting about it.

Iím getting board of repeating this mate. The council own the ground. The council have the overall authority on any potential development on that ground and in the surrounding area. If that doesnít help with any further questions, I really donít know what else to say. They hold all of the expectations of the lease.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 05, 2021, 11:43:36 am
'They dont have any rights to know the intricacies of the finances unless they believe something untoward has occured.'
Isnt what this is all about?

You tell me. Have you got something you want to share? I havenít.

I might be able to argue that KT and DB are shyte with money. But beyond that Iím done. You and a select few obviously know something I donít. As the teacher would say.. WOULD YOU LIKE TO SHARE IT WITH THE GROUP?  ;D ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 11:46:48 am
Believe me GPC. At the risk of sounding arrogant. I know about that land. One thing for sure is, I know what can be built on it. Hence the council representative backtracking when I questioned him in a public meeting about it.

Iím getting board of repeating this mate. The council own the ground. The council have the overall authority on any potential development on that ground and in the surrounding area. If that doesnít help with any further questions, I really donít know what else to say. They hold all of the expectations of the lease.

Would you like to "share with the group" what you know can be built upon that land then??


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: lordjord on July 05, 2021, 12:01:30 pm
Think about what you could do though Steven if the club were to have a stake in the development of the area. Hotel/casino, purpose built training and rehabilitation facilities for all 3 Northampton professional sports clubs who all work together. Why is it football, Rugby or Cricket when you can go to all 3? What about a season ticket offering for that with all 3 pushing to raise profiles, something to get business and sponsors excited. Specialist retail, restaurants owned by the club with match day functions. Quality food delivered direct to the back of stand collection points during the game all ordered via smart phone app, instead of gulping down boiled burgers and bovril that you have had to queue 20 minutes for at half time. The stage at the back of the North, the possibilities and options are endless. Make the land money work for the club and recruit some people to develop the alternative commercial opportunities. But no, itís corporate boxes destined to be half used and plastic seats that wonít see an arse more than twice in 3 months. Fcuk me and people wonder why weíre going backwards, whereís the imagination and drive? The Club, Council, Trust, Saints and even the CCC could all work together along with the Council to regenerate the whole area. Given the proximity of the Saints to Sixfields and the land in question/money involved what a golden opportunity to kill about 8 birds with one stone. Do up the East Stand with a car park my ar5e, it will be a new bus stop next just to be really progressive. What a fcuking waste, and people wonder why weíre in debt. FFS do something different that will get people excited and get the Council up off their backsides to work positively and finally promote and progress the town. Iím going for a lie down.

I want this!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 12:01:55 pm
You tell me. Have you got something you want to share? I havenít.

I might be able to argue that KT and DB are shyte with money. But beyond that Iím done. You and a select few obviously know something I donít. As the teacher would say.. WOULD YOU LIKE TO SHARE IT WITH THE GROUP?  ;D ;D
Did I take your quote out of context then Terry?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 05, 2021, 12:11:14 pm
Would you like to "share with the group" what you know can be built upon that land then??

Plenty..


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 12:14:39 pm
😂😂😂😂 I THINK THERE WAS AND THE TRUST HAVE EVIDENCE.
maybe you should take a breath and read what the trust have written, money was transferred to BDJ and over a million was transferred to KT and DB according to the Trust, totalling £6.7m again according to the trustís statement. Now if that wasnít true I think legal process would have started donít you?

Fķck me. That was money for the shareholders not for the club. If I buy shares in Melly's company Melly gets thet money not the company.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 12:16:52 pm
Plenty..

So the land gets sold for development and then whoever can come along and submit a planning application to WNC to build whatever on it?

I don't see what other role the Council play in any of this....they may hold/own the land but it is subject to a 150 year lease to CDNL.....so CDNL have to step forward with development proposals.....which currently consist of a car park and "possibly" some warehousing development.

Are you saying the Council should knock these back and say "you can do better than that"?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 12:22:03 pm
Fķck me. That was money for the shareholders not for the club. If I buy shares in Melly's company Melly gets thet money not the company.

The shareholders of what? The football Club? The owning company (NT Ventures) of the football club? The owning company (Fantastical Limited) of the owning company (NT Ventures) of the football club?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 05, 2021, 12:31:17 pm

Are you saying the Council should knock these back and say "you can do better than that"?

I wonít go round in circles. I'm more than satisfied that I have answered these questions umpteenth times, to you and most of the Trust ďthink tankĒ 😃😃

I'm a bit weary of witnessing the implosion. Another short sabbatical is in order.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 12:38:46 pm
Fķck me. That was money for the shareholders not for the club. If I buy shares in Melly's company Melly gets thet money not the company.
FŻck me too, the money still changed hands as reported in the Guardian newspaper.
KT and DB still received £6.7m, I really donít get your point, KT and DB are the club.
Are they not pleading poverty and wracking up a soon to be £10m debt?

I will make it simple KT and DB = NTFC


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 12:42:44 pm
The shareholders of what? The football Club? The owning company (NT Ventures) of the football club? The owning company (Fantastical Limited) of the owning company (NT Ventures) of the football club?
I think he might go a bit quite after posting that little gem.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: west stand oap on July 05, 2021, 12:52:29 pm
He might go quite but probably won't go quiet.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 12:52:36 pm
 ;D  Welcome to the land of the Barrack Room Lawyers...everyone really haven't got a clue have they?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 12:54:01 pm
He might go quite but probably won't go quiet.
Dyslexia rules KO.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 12:54:16 pm
FŻck me too, the money still changed hands as reported in the Guardian newspaper.
KT and DB still received £6.7m, I really donít get your point, KT and DB are the club.
Are they not pleading poverty and wracking up a soon to be £10m debt?

I will make it simple KT and DB = NTFC


Wrong, no it doesn't.

They got money for their shares. Let me make it simple. I buy a car from you, it is up to me wether I put petrol in it or not, if I cannot I have made a mistake and decide to sell it back to you, it is then up to you what to do with the car, you can finish the paint job, install a turbo, but it is up to you because you own the car.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 12:57:20 pm
The shareholders of what? The football Club? The owning company (NT Ventures) of the football club? The owning company (Fantastical Limited) of the owning company (NT Ventures) of the football club?

Thank you for listing the possiblities of which company sold the shares, note company either NTV, FL and later BDJ, not the club, the club is bascially a majority owned susduary of what ever company DB and KT decide to call themselves.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 05, 2021, 13:06:33 pm
The shareholders of what? The football Club? The owning company (NT Ventures) of the football club? The owning company (Fantastical Limited) of the owning company (NT Ventures) of the football club?

Hang on a second, you haven't mentioned Belle de Jour and without doubt that is the sexiest of all.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 13:12:12 pm
Wrong, no it doesn't.

They got money for their shares. Let me make it simple. I buy a car from you, it is up to me wether I put petrol in it or not, if I cannot I have made a mistake and decide to sell it back to you, it is then up to you what to do with the car, you can finish the paint job, install a turbo, but it is up to you because you own the car.
The point I am making is that it is reported that KT and DB received £6.7m, this was as a direct result of their relationship with NTFC.
As reported there is no evidence of this being repaid.
So as reported they are £6.7m better off BUT still want the £10m post stand debt repaid.  On that basis how much of the acquired profit as a result of the land development do you think will remain of benefit to the club if there is no pre agreed arrangement? They are business men with the objective or profiting out the club. We are fans looking to protect our club and Iím not sure those objectives align without clearly defined boundaries.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 13:12:52 pm
Please god can we not pull together and at least have a look at doing something progressive. The owners are getting their arse kicked, the Trust board are getting their arse kicked, the councilÖarse kicked, the various supporters groups are kicking each other up the arse. FFS stop, we may never get this chance again. Sixfields was **** up during the initial build. The first go at ground redevelopment was a disaster. Now we are close to fcuking it up again, at what point in our future is someone going to get it right?According to GPC the land is worth fcuk all, according to Manny itís worth 100 million, according to Tel its somewhere in between. Instead of squabbling like a bunch of school kids over their crayons letís find out the true picture and at least have a go at investigating something dynamic and different. Step forward the Trust board. Stop fcuking spitting poison and get on with getting the best for the club, and that ainít kicking the sh1t out of the current owners, itís a waste of time. Itís working with all parties to try and build something that will support the club long after KT and DB have gone back to Florida, Dubai or wherever it is they came from. Focus on what you can do, not hitting your head against the proverbial brick wall because your giving yourself and everyone else a headache. It cant be this hard can it, letís not be sitting here in 10 years time saying ďcoulda, woulda, shouldaĒ.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 13:20:58 pm
The point I am making is that it is reported that KT and DB received £6.7m, this was as a direct result of their relationship with NTFC.
As reported there is no evidence of this being repaid.
So as reported they are £6.7m better off BUT still want the £10m post stand debt repaid.  On that basis how much of the acquired profit as a result of the land development do you think will remain of benefit to the club if there is no pre agreed arrangement? They are business men with the objective or profiting out the club. We are fans looking to protect our club and I’m not sure those objectives align without clearly defined boundaries.

Again. They got the money for shares. It is their money, they are under no obligation to put that money into the club as a gift.
Just to clarify again. DB and KT own a company that owns the majority shareholding in a football club that they have no real interest in and therefore are unlikely to hand over money without a way of recovering said money plus interest. I am pretty(OK I'm not really pretty) certain that should the land deal go through and they start reaping millions and money does flow into the club I would not be surprised if one of the first orders of business will be to repay the loans made by BDJ/NYV/FL.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 05, 2021, 13:27:01 pm
😂😂😂😂 I THINK THERE WAS AND THE TRUST HAVE EVIDENCE.
maybe you should take a breath and read what the trust have written, money was transferred to BDJ and over a million was transferred to KT and DB according to the Trust, totalling £6.7m again according to the trustís statement. Now if that wasnít true I think legal process would have started donít you?

Generally speaking thinking something doesn't really add up to case for the prosecution - if the trust have evidence of wrong doing bring it to the attention of the authorities - if not, its only relevance is someone might have made some money - actually even more irrelevant as I've tried to explain to you that sale and transfer of unlisted shares is very much a private matter between the buyer and the seller


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 05, 2021, 13:30:17 pm
Ok, let's flip this one on its head?

If what you are saying is indeed true, and the Trust have proof of this, have they presented this to the relevant authorities?

If not,  why not?

On the specific topic of skullduggery or illegal activities, which seem to get hinted at, the point above is all that matters.
'If' anyone did have proof of anything criminal and failed to produce it, they are either involved or as guilty as those accused of it. If they know it and don't have specific proof you can still blow the whistle.
It is far, far too easy to post some loose rumour online before it is getting passed off as fact. You don't even have to go to the pub anymore!
Didn't a senior Trust member sign something off last time that should have been questioned at the time? I guess that won't be happening this time!

Granted, there are some blurred lines around what is morally right but I bet half of you still drink from Starbucks.

Judge Rinder must be quaking in his boots reading some of this.
My God we need the season to start.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 05, 2021, 13:30:39 pm
FŻck me too, the money still changed hands as reported in the Guardian newspaper.
KT and DB still received £6.7m, I really donít get your point, KT and DB are the club.
Are they not pleading poverty and wracking up a soon to be £10m debt?

I will make it simple KT and DB = NTFC


Yep, correct, DB & KT = NTFC.

That doesn't mean their cash belongs to NTFC though, so any they invest in running costs are director loans as with any other privately funded business.

Whether NTFC as an entity will ever be in a position to pay that back remains to be seen.

Anyway, re my previous message to you, does the Trust have proof of illegal activities or not?

If they have, who have they reported it to?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 13:32:35 pm
Again. They got the money for shares. It is their money, they are under no obligation to put that money into the club as a gift.
Just to clarify again. DB and KT own a company that owns the majority shareholding in a football club that they have no real interest in and therefore are unlikely to hand over money without a way of recovering said money plus interest. I am pretty(OK I'm not really pretty) certain that should the land deal go through and they start reaping millions and money does flow into the club I would not be surprised if one of the first orders of business will be to repay the loans made by BDJ/NYV/FL.

They got £4.3m for the shares.....recorded and accepted even by 5U.  They also got £1.1m each personally according to the Trust statement.

The 65% shareholding was held by Fantastical Limited....a UK registered company with the common directorship......but Fantastical didn't sell the shares....BDJ did.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 05, 2021, 13:38:10 pm
Please god can we not pull together and at least have a look at doing something progressive. The owners are getting their arse kicked, the Trust board are getting their arse kicked, the councilÖarse kicked, the various supporters groups are kicking each other up the arse. FFS stop, we may never get this chance again. Sixfields was **** up during the initial build. The first go at ground redevelopment was a disaster. Now we are close to fcuking it up again, at what point in our future is someone going to get it right?According to GPC the land is worth fcuk all, according to Manny itís worth 100 million, according to Tel its somewhere in between. Instead of squabbling like a bunch of school kids over their crayons letís find out the true picture and at least have a go at investigating something dynamic and different. Step forward the Trust board. Stop fcuking spitting poison and get on with getting the best for the club, and that ainít kicking the sh1t out of the current owners, itís a waste of time. Itís working with all parties to try and build something that will support the club long after KT and DB have gone back to Florida, Dubai or wherever it is they came from. Focus on what you can do, not hitting your head against the proverbial brick wall because your giving yourself and everyone else a headache. It cant be this hard can it, letís not be sitting here in 10 years time saying ďcoulda, woulda, shouldaĒ.

And therein, the excellent response of a business owner and entrepreneur who has had enough of the 'email tennis'.

Great post Melly.  :)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 13:41:17 pm
Please god can we not pull together and at least have a look at doing something progressive. The owners are getting their arse kicked, the Trust board are getting their arse kicked, the councilÖarse kicked, the various supporters groups are kicking each other up the arse. FFS stop, we may never get this chance again. Sixfields was **** up during the initial build. The first go at ground redevelopment was a disaster. Now we are close to fcuking it up again, at what point in our future is someone going to get it right?According to GPC the land is worth fcuk all, according to Manny itís worth 100 million, according to Tel its somewhere in between. Instead of squabbling like a bunch of school kids over their crayons letís find out the true picture and at least have a go at investigating something dynamic and different. Step forward the Trust board. Stop fcuking spitting poison and get on with getting the best for the club, and that ainít kicking the sh1t out of the current owners, itís a waste of time. Itís working with all parties to try and build something that will support the club long after KT and DB have gone back to Florida, Dubai or wherever it is they came from. Focus on what you can do, not hitting your head against the proverbial brick wall because your giving yourself and everyone else a headache. It cant be this hard can it, letís not be sitting here in 10 years time saying ďcoulda, woulda, shouldaĒ.

I agree with you Melly, but as so many on here have pointed out its KT and DB who own the club and can do with it what they want. Also CDNL controls the leases to the development land and guess who owns CDNL?

Therefore if the only plans are for a car park and 'possibly' some warehousing what can anyone else do about it?

I'm sure we would all love training pitches, a Conference Centre, a Hotel, a Casino, or whatever....but if they are not even on the radar of the owners of the Cub or the holders of the leases then we are a bit screwed aren't we?

Either it is their club and their land and they can do with it what they want......or "we" should all have a vision along the lines of the one you have and we should all pressure the Club, owners and council to pursue that vision......which is it?

You know when the Trust say that what is proposed currently is not in the best interests of the club and subsequently withdraw support for the plans.....isn't this what you are advocating? The Trust would like to see the Football Club gain more than a car park and some boxes as pretty much the sum total of this "once in a lifetime" opportunity.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 05, 2021, 13:44:08 pm
They got £4.3m for the shares.....recorded and accepted even by 5U.  They also got £1.1m each personally according to the Trust statement.

The 65% shareholding was held by Fantastical Limited....a UK registered company with the common directorship......but Fantastical didn't sell the shares....BDJ did.

Ok, so this must surely be in some international court somewhere then presumably, as the guys in charge of 5USports would have a valid claim?

Is this the "clock is ticking" statement that was being made some weeks ago by others?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 05, 2021, 13:47:28 pm
I agree with you Melly, but as so many on here have pointed out its KT and DB who own the club and can do with it what they want. Also CDNL controls the leases to the development land and guess who owns CDNL?

Therefore if the only plans are for a car park and 'possibly' some warehousing what can anyone else do about it?

I'm sure we would all love training pitches, a Conference Centre, a Hotel, a Casino, or whatever....but if they are not even on the radar of the owners of the Cub or the holders of the leases then we are a bit screwed aren't we?

Either it is their club and their land and they can do with it what they want......or "we" should all have a vision along the lines of the one you have and we should all pressure the Club, owners and council to pursue that vision......which is it?

You know when the Trust say that what is proposed currently is not in the best interests of the club and subsequently withdraw support for the plans.....isn't this what you are advocating? The Trust would like to see the Football Club gain more than a car park and some boxes as pretty much the sum total of this "once in a lifetime" opportunity.

Maybe throwing the dummy out wasn't the best form of lobbying the Trust could have done to achieving Utopia?

Just a thought...


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 13:55:10 pm
Ok, so this must surely be in some international court somewhere then presumably, as the guys in charge of 5USports would have a valid claim?

Is this the "clock is ticking" statement that was being made some weeks ago by others?

Not quite.....because, as already pointed out, the money from 5U dried up (after they had completed the 100% purchase) and that forced BDJ to "loan" the club 1.1m in January 2018 as there was a concern then that the club could go bust, the security for that loan was Ventures shares (now owned by 5U Sports) in the club.

5U did not come up with any money in the month after the loan was made and the charge was proven, and the shares were (widely reported as) reacquired by KT and DB


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 14:15:38 pm
I agree with you Melly, but as so many on here have pointed out its KT and DB who own the club and can do with it what they want. Also CDNL controls the leases to the development land and guess who owns CDNL?

Therefore if the only plans are for a car park and 'possibly' some warehousing what can anyone else do about it?

I'm sure we would all love training pitches, a Conference Centre, a Hotel, a Casino, or whatever....but if they are not even on the radar of the owners of the Cub or the holders of the leases then we are a bit screwed aren't we?

Either it is their club and their land and they can do with it what they want......or "we" should all have a vision along the lines of the one you have and we should all pressure the Club, owners and council to pursue that vision......which is it?

You know when the Trust say that what is proposed currently is not in the best interests of the club and subsequently withdraw support for the plans.....isn't this what you are advocating? The Trust would like to see the Football Club gain more than a car park and some boxes as pretty much the sum total of this "once in a lifetime" opportunity.
Good question GPC, tbh without getting involved I donít know. However, what I can tell you is constantly attacking the owners is going to achieve fcuk all. My message to the Trust board is play the strongest hand you can and that ainít smacking the owners on the ar5e with a feather duster. Whilst weíre all fcuking about trying to prove we were right all along, desperate to say ďI told you soĒ and displaying the biggest pair of b0ll0cks the club is going to end up with yet another missed opportunity. If the owners have recouped some money unethically then woopee fcuking do. What are the Trust board going to do with that, wear a T-shirt saying ďTold you they was crooksĒ. Do something that will make a difference rather than massage your own ego proving to no one who cares you were right, to repeat nobody cares. Sorry to be blunt mate but the clocks ticking.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BrixworthCobbler on July 05, 2021, 14:27:20 pm
;D  Welcome to the land of the Barrack Room Lawyers...everyone really haven't got a clue have they?

100%


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 05, 2021, 14:37:26 pm
As a post above there is a lot of speculation so could someone please confirm the below by quoting the post...

Does anyone ACTUALLY know what the land is worth? Yes / No
Does anyone ACTUALLY know what can be built on the land? yes / no
Has anyone ACTUALLY asked or tried to enquire? yes / no


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 14:42:12 pm
Good question GPC, tbh without getting involved I donít know. However, what I can tell you is constantly attacking the owners is going to achieve fcuk all. My message to the Trust board is play the strongest hand you can and that ainít smacking the owners on the ar5e with a feather duster. Whilst weíre all fcuking about trying to prove we were right all along, desperate to say ďI told you soĒ and displaying the biggest pair of b0ll0cks the club is going to end up with yet another missed opportunity. If the owners have recouped some money unethically then woopee fcuking do. What are the Trust board going to do with that, wear a T-shirt saying ďTold you they was crooksĒ. Do something that will make a difference rather than massage your own ego proving to no one who cares you were right, to repeat nobody cares. Sorry to be blunt mate but the clocks ticking.

It was a good question.....but it appears nobody knows the answer!

There is a deal on the table, drawn up by the Club and presented to the Council. That deal involves completion of the East Stand to an acceptable but "financially prudent" standard. It also appears to have some executive boxes and some facilities within the finished stand. Also shown on the CGI is a car park on the site of the old Athletics stadium. Thats it!

Did the club ask fans what they would like to see? Did the Club ask the Trust what they would like to see? No.....this is the plan drawn up by KT and DB, and KT & DB alone. Its not acceptable is it? Even you acknowledge that......and because its not acceptable the Trust has withdrawn its support for it. What else could it do?

That doesn't mean this plan is dead and buried...its still on the table! We'd all like to see a lot more but we (fans, Trust or whoever) hold none of the cards.

When you say "clocks ticking"....what exactly are you proposing anyone does? This plan as it is either goes through or it doesn't....its the only plan.....the club isn't listening to suggestions!

Case in point...the New Hotel End plans..... great idea on paper, but how much funding was going to come from the club? I think we can all guess at the answer. If it was crowdfunded however it would be a different matter! Shouldn't this type of thing be embraced by the Club and its owners?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 15:09:22 pm
It was a good question.....but it appears nobody knows the answer!

There is a deal on the table, drawn up by the Club and presented to the Council. That deal involves completion of the East Stand to an acceptable but "financially prudent" standard. It also appears to have some executive boxes and some facilities within the finished stand. Also shown on the CGI is a car park on the site of the old Athletics stadium. Thats it!

Did the club ask fans what they would like to see? Did the Club ask the Trust what they would like to see? No.....this is the plan drawn up by KT and DB, and KT & DB alone. Its not acceptable is it? Even you acknowledge that......and because its not acceptable the Trust has withdrawn its support for it. What else could it do?

That doesn't mean this plan is dead and buried...its still on the table! We'd all like to see a lot more but we (fans, Trust or whoever) hold none of the cards.

When you say "clocks ticking"....what exactly are you proposing anyone does? This plan as it is either goes through or it doesn't....its the only plan.....the club isn't listening to suggestions!

Case in point...the New Hotel End plans..... great idea on paper, but how much funding was going to come from the club? I think we can all guess at the answer. If it was crowdfunded however it would be a different matter! Shouldn't this type of thing be embraced by the Club and its owners?
Playing devils advocate did the Trust ask the fans what they want either? Sorry mate, just trying to make the point that all this finger pointing is futile. What I am proposing is investigate doing something radical that may progress the club in the long term? We may as well because currently we are going no where.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 15:28:29 pm
As a post above there is a lot of speculation so could someone please confirm the below by quoting the post...

Does anyone ACTUALLY know what the land is worth? Yes / No
Does anyone ACTUALLY know what can be built on the land? yes / no
Has anyone ACTUALLY asked or tried to enquire? yes / no
Yes ( depends on business model) answers on a postcard to TFAMH.
Yes. Residential and Commercial.
Yes.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 15:33:16 pm
Again. They got the money for shares. It is their money, they are under no obligation to put that money into the club as a gift.
Just to clarify again. DB and KT own a company that owns the majority shareholding in a football club that they have no real interest in and therefore are unlikely to hand over money without a way of recovering said money plus interest. I am pretty(OK I'm not really pretty) certain that should the land deal go through and they start reaping millions and money does flow into the club I would not be surprised if one of the first orders of business will be to repay the loans made by BDJ/NYV/FL.
Yes they did get money for shares from companies that funded the club, without the club there would be no transaction!
And you are right they have no obligation to pay that money into the club, doesnít make it right though does it and the average punter hasnít got a clue whatís going on.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Battery Man on July 05, 2021, 15:41:50 pm
It was a good question.....but it appears nobody knows the answer!

There is a deal on the table, drawn up by the Club and presented to the Council. That deal involves completion of the East Stand to an acceptable but "financially prudent" standard. It also appears to have some executive boxes and some facilities within the finished stand. Also shown on the CGI is a car park on the site of the old Athletics stadium. Thats it!

Did the club ask fans what they would like to see? Did the Club ask the Trust what they would like to see? No.....this is the plan drawn up by KT and DB, and KT & DB alone. Its not acceptable is it? Even you acknowledge that......and because its not acceptable the Trust has withdrawn its support for it. What else could it do?

That doesn't mean this plan is dead and buried...its still on the table! We'd all like to see a lot more but we (fans, Trust or whoever) hold none of the cards.

When you say "clocks ticking"....what exactly are you proposing anyone does? This plan as it is either goes through or it doesn't....its the only plan.....the club isn't listening to suggestions!

Case in point...the New Hotel End plans..... great idea on paper, but how much funding was going to come from the club? I think we can all guess at the answer. If it was crowdfunded however it would be a different matter! Shouldn't this type of thing be embraced by the Club and its owners?

Personally at this point in time I would be happy after all these years of going nowhere and all the backbiting and finger pointing that is going on from all sides I would just be happy to have them finish the East to an acceptable but prudent level, build some carparking at the back of the East and leave a bit of the land for the club, then they can make all the money they want from the land on the proviso that they write off their loans to the club leaving us in a healthy place for either KT & DB to grow the club or they can sell it on to someone who wants and can afford to take it to the next level.

It has gone on too long and all the different factions are doing are arguing as to who is in the wrong, well as far as I can see there is wrong on all sides, that is The Trust, KT & DB and before them Cardoza and the Trust rep on the board. All the latest missive from the trust has done is make them look like they are spitting their dummy out because they can't get what they want.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 15:43:14 pm
It was a good question.....but it appears nobody knows the answer!

There is a deal on the table, drawn up by the Club and presented to the Council. That deal involves completion of the East Stand to an acceptable but "financially prudent" standard. It also appears to have some executive boxes and some facilities within the finished stand. Also shown on the CGI is a car park on the site of the old Athletics stadium. Thats it!

Did the club ask fans what they would like to see? Did the Club ask the Trust what they would like to see? No.....this is the plan drawn up by KT and DB, and KT & DB alone. Its not acceptable is it? Even you acknowledge that......and because its not acceptable the Trust has withdrawn its support for it. What else could it do?

That doesn't mean this plan is dead and buried...its still on the table! We'd all like to see a lot more but we (fans, Trust or whoever) hold none of the cards.

When you say "clocks ticking"....what exactly are you proposing anyone does? This plan as it is either goes through or it doesn't....its the only plan.....the club isn't listening to suggestions!

Case in point...the New Hotel End plans..... great idea on paper, but how much funding was going to come from the club? I think we can all guess at the answer. If it was crowdfunded however it would be a different matter! Shouldn't this type of thing be embraced by the Club and its owners?

Why should the club have asked the Trust or the fans what they wanted to see?
The CGI looks alright to me. Why isn't the CGI acceptable?
Who has said that it's not acceptable?  Those fans that attended the open day appeared to be satisfied?
Or is this The Trust Board once again unilaterally making a decision on behalf of the fans without asking the fans what they wanted to see?

"To be open, democratic and inclusive in considering the needs and ideas of supporters"
The Trust Board once again losing even more credibility, it can't be too far now from being a spent case.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 15:52:01 pm
Why should the club have asked the Trust or the fans what they wanted to see?
The CGI looks alright to me. Why isn't the CGI acceptable?
Who has said that it's not acceptable?  Those fans that attended the open day appeared to be satisfied?
Or is this The Trust Board once again unilaterally making a decision on behalf of the fans without asking the fans what they wanted to see?

"To be open, democratic and inclusive in considering the needs and ideas of supporters"
The Trust Board once again losing even more credibility, it can't be too far now from being a spent case.


Is this you making a decision on behalf of the whole of the fanbase?
How many of the many thousand fans did go to the open day?
Yes, the CGI looks alright, thats usually what CGI's do.

The Trust board feel that the overall plan is not acceptable.

You missed the last part of the mission statement..... "We commit to supporting the aims and objectives of NTFC where, in the opinion of the board, these are not in direct conflict with the needs and best interests of supporters."

The Board don't believe that what is being proposed meets that final criteria. It really is that simple.

How can saddling the club with another £3m of debt on top of the 6-7m already accrued and the football club taking on all the development risk be in the best interests of supporters?

Open invite to you Deepcut, join in the next board meeting, better still put yourself forward to be a board member...... then maybe you can effect the change that you so obviously want to see.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 15:55:04 pm
Personally at this point in time I would be happy after all these years of going nowhere and all the backbiting and finger pointing that is going on from all sides I would just be happy to have them finish the East to an acceptable but prudent level, build some carparking at the back of the East and leave a bit of the land for the club, then they can make all the money they want from the land on the proviso that they write off their loans to the club leaving us in a healthy place for either KT & DB to grow the club or they can sell it on to someone who wants and can afford to take it to the next level.

It has gone on too long and all the different factions are doing are arguing as to who is in the wrong, well as far as I can see there is wrong on all sides, that is The Trust, KT & DB and before them Cardoza and the Trust rep on the board. All the latest missive from the trust has done is make them look like they are spitting their dummy out because they can't get what they want.

That's the issue here isn't it?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 16:07:21 pm
Yep, correct, DB & KT = NTFC.

That doesn't mean their cash belongs to NTFC though, so any they invest in running costs are director loans as with any other privately funded business.

Whether NTFC as an entity will ever be in a position to pay that back remains to be seen.

Anyway, re my previous message to you, does the Trust have proof of illegal activities or not?

If they have, who have they reported it to?

No. BDJ has a majority shareholding in NTFC, BDJ does not own NTFC outright. DB and KT own BDJ outright.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 05, 2021, 16:21:09 pm
Did the club ask fans what they would like to see? Did the Club ask the Trust what they would like to see? No.....this is the plan drawn up by KT and DB, and KT & DB alone. Its not acceptable is it? Even you acknowledge that......and because its not acceptable the Trust has withdrawn its support for it. What else could it do?

Can you answer some questions to help clarify the situation for everyone with your Trust hat on?

What changed specifically in the plans for the build from September 2020 to June this year?  I ask because the Trust and Club released a joint statement backing the plans in September.  Have they changed significantly from what you were told the plans were going to be?  You repeatadly state the deal on the table to the council hasn't changed since many years ago so I assume the trust were aware this was the deal last September when they publicly backed the plans?

Also the statement released by the trust backing the deal wasn't conditional or we (the fans/members) certainly weren't told it was at the time it was made.

What does the Trust view as an acceptable completion of the East Stand if the current plans don't meet that?  What are the specific expectations for an acceptable completion?  Have you shared this vision with the club and what was their response?

Regarding the 5U Sport saga.  How long has the Trust known about the financial information it published in it's statement last weekend?

What physical evidence do you have that the payments were made/money changed hands for the amounts quoted?  Can that be shared to support the trusts statements?

What is the purpose of the Trust releasing this information in a statement now?

Is the Trust saying or implying that some wrong doing has taken place here?  Either in company law, football league ownership rules or just morally?

Has the Trust raised any of these concerns if they have any with companies house, the football league, the local council or any other official body that this would be of interest to?

If yes when was this done and what were their responses?

I understand that the Trust has had conversations in the past with KT regarding the 5U Sports deal and there is written correspondence regarding this matter.  What was said during this correspondence and what explanantion given?  And can the members see this correspondence for complete context?

Finally while I understand the Trust Board deal with the day to day running of the Supporters Trust at what point do the matters become so fundamental to the future of the club that you would consult your membership and the wider fan base to ensure the important decisions you are making are what the majority wishes?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 16:30:58 pm
No. BDJ has a majority shareholding in NTFC, BDJ does not own NTFC outright. DB and KT own BDJ outright.

Incorrect.... Belle-De-Jour has no shareholding in Northampton Town Football Club.

Northampton Town FC does/did owe £4,839,997 to Belle-De-Jour according to the latest set of accounts submitted for year end June 2020.

Northampton Town Ventures does have a majority (84.58%) shareholding in the Football Club. The club owed Ventures £1,291,028 in the aforementioned set of accounts.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 16:34:06 pm
Incorrect.... Belle-De-Jour has no shareholding in Northampton Town Football Club.

Northampton Town FC does/did owe £4,839,997 to Belle-De-Jour according to the latest set of accounts submitted for year end June 2020.

Northampton Town Ventures does have a majority (84.8%) shareholding in the Football Club. The club owed Ventures £1,291,028 in the aforementioned set of accounts.
Now why would you set up a shell company in BVI ? 😂


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 16:35:13 pm
Can you answer some questions to help clarify the situation for everyone with your Trust hat on?

What changed specifically in the plans for the build from September 2020 to June this year?  I ask because the Trust and Club released a joint statement backing the plans in September.  Have they changed significantly from what you were told the plans were going to be?  You repeatadly state the deal on the table to the council hasn't changed since many years ago so I assume the trust were aware this was the deal last September when they publicly backed the plans?

Also the statement released by the trust backing the deal wasn't conditional or we (the fans/members) certainly weren't told it was at the time it was made.

What does the Trust view as an acceptable completion of the East Stand if the current plans don't meet that?  What are the specific expectations for an acceptable completion?  Have you shared this vision with the club and what was their response?

Regarding the 5U Sport saga.  How long has the Trust known about the financial information it published in it's statement last weekend?

What physical evidence do you have that the payments were made/money changed hands for the amounts quoted?  Can that be shared to support the trusts statements?

What is the purpose of the Trust releasing this information in a statement now?

Is the Trust saying or implying that some wrong doing has taken place here?  Either in company law, football league ownership rules or just morally?

Has the Trust raised any of these concerns if they have any with companies house, the football league, the local council or any other official body that this would be of interest to?

If yes when was this done and what were their responses?

I understand that the Trust has had conversations in the past with KT regarding the 5U Sports deal and there is written correspondence regarding this matter.  What was said during this correspondence and what explanantion given?  And can the members see this correspondence for complete context?

Finally while I understand the Trust Board deal with the day to day running of the Supporters Trust at what point do the matters become so fundamental to the future of the club that you would consult your membership and the wider fan base to ensure the important decisions you are making are what the majority wishes?
I find it astonishing that you have all these questions for the Trust and yet not one for the club?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 05, 2021, 16:38:42 pm
How about a very simple poll? (which I won't be putting up  ;D)
Would you be happy if the East Stand is completed (to the published CGI) and the club is left totally debt free, regardless of who has the land and who benefits from any related profits from the land?

It's a yes or no.

I'd hazard a guess the majority have been worn down and would deliver a 'yes' verdict.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 16:46:02 pm
How about a very simple poll? (which I won't be putting up  ;D)
Would you be happy if the East Stand is completed (to the published CGI) and the club is left totally debt free, regardless of who has the land and who benefits from any related profits from the land?

It's a yes or no.

I'd hazard a guess the majority have been worn down and would deliver a 'yes' verdict.

I would guess that your guess is correct.

Unfortunately though you'd have to think a bit more long term than that (IMO).....the club built up debts under Cardoza which were cleared when KT and DB came along. Now the club is in debt again which could potentially be wiped clean if the land deal goes ahead.

What happens in 5-10 years when those debts have built up again? How do we pay them off next time? Does having 18 boxes and a few rooms make the club "sustainable"......that's what I thought the Redev was meant to be about.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 05, 2021, 17:04:29 pm
I find it astonishing that you have all these questions for the Trust and yet not one for the club?

Every question I have ever asked the club over KT's reign got answered.  In person or via email.  I went to the presentation the other week and asked some more face to face.  If I have any in the future I have no doubt it will be the same.  Have you done that?

Not all the answers I was given were what I wanted to hear as a supporter but they were fair and I believe honest appraisals of the situations at the time.  I also have friends that are fellow supporters who also give me information that I trust.

Do you think those questions to the Trust are irrelevant?  Or shouldn't be asked?  Surely that's how you form a balanced opinion?  By questioning both sides and getting a complete not partial view.  Well that's what I've been doing to form my opinion.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 05, 2021, 17:06:08 pm
I would guess that your guess is correct.

Unfortunately though you'd have to think a bit more long term than that (IMO).....the club built up debts under Cardoza which were cleared when KT and DB came along. Now the club is in debt again which could potentially be wiped clean if the land deal goes ahead.

What happens in 5-10 years when those debts have built up again? How do we pay them off next time? Does having 18 boxes and a few rooms make the club "sustainable"......that's what I thought the Redev was meant to be about.
Spot on

Two successive chairman have racked up huge debts with the ground as it is

Adding a couple of hundred seats and a few boxes is sooooo last decade

The club need a ground thatíll hold 12-15,000 and proper facilities to generate the income to STOP wracking up huge debt and eventually going bust.
If the product on the field consists of something more than free transfers and unproven loans then the fans bums would be on those 12,000 seats

Ask Luton town whoíve whizzed from non league to championship while we wet ourselves over a grand redevelopment.

They have a 10,000 capacity full each week and a couple of thousand who canít get tickets.

Maybe Kelvin can ask them how they managed it when a few years back they were getting six thousand at kenilworth road


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 17:07:07 pm
It was a good question.....but it appears nobody knows the answer!

There is a deal on the table, drawn up by the Club and presented to the Council. That deal involves completion of the East Stand to an acceptable but "financially prudent" standard. It also appears to have some executive boxes and some facilities within the finished stand. Also shown on the CGI is a car park on the site of the old Athletics stadium. Thats it!

Did the club ask fans what they would like to see? Did the Club ask the Trust what they would like to see? No.....this is the plan drawn up by KT and DB, and KT & DB alone. Its not acceptable is it? Even you acknowledge that......and because its not acceptable the Trust has withdrawn its support for it. What else could it do?

That doesn't mean this plan is dead and buried...its still on the table! We'd all like to see a lot more but we (fans, Trust or whoever) hold none of the cards.

When you say "clocks ticking"....what exactly are you proposing anyone does? This plan as it is either goes through or it doesn't....its the only plan.....the club isn't listening to suggestions!

Case in point...the New Hotel End plans..... great idea on paper, but how much funding was going to come from the club? I think we can all guess at the answer. If it was crowdfunded however it would be a different matter! Shouldn't this type of thing be embraced by the Club and its owners?
Wasnt the carpark designed so that fire engines could be turned around on it. Thought Tel told us this a million pages ago. Perhaps wont be able to charge a fee to park on match days then?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 17:08:12 pm
I would guess that your guess is correct.

Unfortunately though you'd have to think a bit more long term than that (IMO).....the club built up debts under Cardoza which were cleared when KT and DB came along. Now the club is in debt again which could potentially be wiped clean if the land deal goes ahead.

What happens in 5-10 years when those debts have built up again? How do we pay them off next time? Does having 18 boxes and a few rooms make the club "sustainable"......that's what I thought the Redev was meant to be about.
Ergo, the deal is s***e?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 17:14:29 pm
Incorrect.... Belle-De-Jour has no shareholding in Northampton Town Football Club.

Northampton Town FC does/did owe £4,839,997 to Belle-De-Jour according to the latest set of accounts submitted for year end June 2020.

Northampton Town Ventures does have a majority (84.58%) shareholding in the Football Club. The club owed Ventures £1,291,028 in the aforementioned set of accounts.

Sorry wrong company same situation. Is NTV solely owned by DB and KT? or is it controlled through BDJ? Theoretically BDJ could claim shares in NTFC in leiu of repayment of loan. I still worry that the loans will be the first thing paid out if and when any money starts coming into the club.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 17:15:50 pm
Now why would you set up a shell company in BVI ?

We have been through this before with you. It's called tax avoidance. Which is perfectly legal if not morally correct.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 17:21:13 pm
We have been through this before with you. It's called tax avoidance. Which is perfectly legal if not morally correct.

And if our owners were or had avoided tax you would not have an issue with it?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 05, 2021, 17:49:13 pm
I would guess that your guess is correct.

Unfortunately though you'd have to think a bit more long term than that (IMO).....the club built up debts under Cardoza which were cleared when KT and DB came along. Now the club is in debt again which could potentially be wiped clean if the land deal goes ahead.

What happens in 5-10 years when those debts have built up again? How do we pay them off next time? Does having 18 boxes and a few rooms make the club "sustainable"......that's what I thought the Redev was meant to be about.

But from our current position itís probably the best case scenario. How do the majority of other clubs survive? Itís not breaking news that KT isnít going to bag £100m and make us some self sustaining lower league super power. Only the most gullible are still holding onto any hope of that.
If we wait for anything more then the chances are most of us to go to our graves looking at that thing.
Weíre not trying to save the planet for our grandchildren here.
If they were to disappear debt free (and a few quid) with their declared completion weíd be in much better shape than when they arrived. Sure, it wonít be the super vision some had. The land may be tied up but most have never had much interest in some barren land behind the ground, or that it was going to fund the running of the club.
We knew from the off he came from Oxford. He stepped in to take over from that last mess. We can complain about the sh*t managers, lack of progress (on and off the field) and growing debt all we want but that isnít going to go away unless something gives.
Iíd love to know in very plain English what some people expect and want.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 18:03:13 pm
And if our owners were or had avoided tax you would not have an issue with it?

In the grander scheme of things they are bit players in an international theatrical production with the stars being the likes of Starbucks, Google, Lewis Hamilton etc.
I'm not saying that it makes what they have done OK, just that it is legal and exploited by thousands of people.
I read somewhere a few years ago that if all of the top earners in the US paid what they should do in taxes the national debt of the country could be wiped out overnight.
It is said that John Paul Getty never paid any tax and on paper he owned nothing despite being at the time one of the if not the richest man in The World. Which brings the old addage you have to have money to make money.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 18:04:49 pm
If they were to disappear debt free (and a few quid) with their declared completion weíd be in much better shape than when they arrived.
Are you sure this is correct?
They inherited a debt free club only having to settle a smallish tax bill I thought.
Does the adddiron of 200 extra seats, some facilities (bogs?) and a few posh boxes constitute as much better shape?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 18:06:22 pm
In the grander scheme of things they are bit players in an international theatrical production with the stars being the likes of Starbucks, Google, Lewis Hamilton etc.
I'm not saying that it makes what they have done OK, just that it is legal and exploited by thousands of people.
I read somewhere a few years ago that if all of the top earners in the US paid what they should do in taxes the national debt of the country could be wiped out overnight.
It is said that John Paul Getty never paid any tax and on paper he owned nothing despite being at the time one of the if not the richest man in The World. Which brings the old addage you have to have money to make money.
Didn't do him any good though. Became a worthless recluse.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Cobblernick97uk on July 05, 2021, 18:19:58 pm
Are you sure this is correct?
They inherited a debt free club only having to settle a smallish tax bill I thought.
Does the adddiron of 200 extra seats, some facilities (bogs?) and a few posh boxes constitute as much better shape?

Debt free? Iím pretty certain the 10/£13,000,000 loaned by NBC got recalled, therefore it was our debt. Thirteen million quid is hardly debt free?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Cobblernick97uk on July 05, 2021, 18:22:09 pm
Debt free? Iím pretty certain the 10/£13,000,000 loaned by NBC got recalled, therefore it was our debt. Thirteen million quid is hardly debt free?

Although, Iím finding Iím commenting on my own quote here, that KT and co were obviously nothing to do with the financial mess, so actually, the original comment of debt free, itís probably accurate 😅 please donít hate


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 18:25:29 pm
Didn't do him any good though. Became a worthless recluse.

Apparently such a tight wad he even had payphones installed in his house. When you read about him he appears to have been a bit of a sad old git, even balking at raising the money to free his kidnapped grandson.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 18:36:42 pm
In the grander scheme of things they are bit players in an international theatrical production with the stars being the likes of Starbucks, Google, Lewis Hamilton etc.
I'm not saying that it makes what they have done OK, just that it is legal and exploited by thousands of people.
I read somewhere a few years ago that if all of the top earners in the US paid what they should do in taxes the national debt of the country could be wiped out overnight.
It is said that John Paul Getty never paid any tax and on paper he owned nothing despite being at the time one of the if not the richest man in The World. Which brings the old addage you have to have money to make money.

Fair pointÖ..I wonder who decides when tax avoidance becomes tax evasionÖ.and therefore it is illegal. What is that line you shouldnít cross?

For example I pay into a smart pension scheme which reduces my overall tax burdenÖ..or I put money into an ISA to reduce my tax outgoingsÖ..both tax avoidance I guess and as you say perfectly legal.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 05, 2021, 18:38:19 pm
Although, Iím finding Iím commenting on my own quote here, that KT and co were obviously nothing to do with the financial mess, so actually, the original comment of debt free, itís probably accurate 😅 please donít hate

As you say that money was nothing to do with the new owners and not part of any deal made going forward. The council took legal action to recover what they could, nothing to do with KT and DB.

To all intents and purposes the money was written off.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 05, 2021, 19:04:32 pm
Apparently such a tight wad he even had payphones installed in his house. When you read about him he appears to have been a bit of a sad old git, even balking at raising the money to free his kidnapped grandson.

I once went to JPG's house in Surrey and I can assure you money really was no object. He had his own state of the art library built into the mansion on several floors and he had staff to maintain it. It was a sight to behold as well as a site to behold!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 19:15:21 pm
I once went to JPG's house in Surrey and I can assure you money really was no object. He had his own state of the art library built into the mansion on several floors and he had staff to maintain it. It was a sight to behold as well as a site to behold!

But it was all owned by a trust fund, alledgedly when he died he had just over 17 dollars to his name.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 19:15:37 pm
Is this you making a decision on behalf of the whole of the fanbase?
How many of the many thousand fans did go to the open day?
Yes, the CGI looks alright, thats usually what CGI's do.

The Trust board feel that the overall plan is not acceptable.

You missed the last part of the mission statement..... "We commit to supporting the aims and objectives of NTFC where, in the opinion of the board, these are not in direct conflict with the needs and best interests of supporters."

The Board don't believe that what is being proposed meets that final criteria. It really is that simple.

How can saddling the club with another £3m of debt on top of the 6-7m already accrued and the football club taking on all the development risk be in the best interests of supporters?

Open invite to you Deepcut, join in the next board meeting, better still put yourself forward to be a board member...... then maybe you can effect the change that you so obviously want to see.

I'm commenting on behalf of me, no one else.

I asked the question "Why isn't the CGI acceptable?" I wasn't at the Open Day, can The Trust Board explain/reveal why, in their opinion, it wasn't acceptable?
The Trust Mission Statement also headlines:
     To be open, democratic and inclusive in considering the needs and ideas of supporters
     To promote and strengthen the bonds between NTFC, its supporters and the wider community
     To safeguard a professional Football League club in Northampton
At what level does the Board take over the decision making on behalf of the members when deciding "in the opinion of the Board"?  
The statement released appears to be quite a significant 'decision', to withdraw their support, that I would assume/hope exceeds that threshold?
Regarding the additional £3m of debt.  How else would the East Stand be funded if not initially from the owners pockets, which will subsequently be recoverable from the land development?

Before considering your invitation to attend the next meeting, I also asked a question earlier:
"Unfortunately, The Trust Board lose even more credibility every time they open their collective mouth(s).
Someone on the Board must realise this, or is this why certain individuals have left?"

I'm not just asking about the recent departures.  
Is it because they realised that they cannot change the agenda of a board that negatively criticises the current owners at every opportunity with naive, destabilising statements that look as though they have been composed by a student on work experience?
Which therefore alienates a significant/large amount of the membership/fans who haven't been privy to the 'knowledge' in order to form their own opinion?
I refer you to the first bullet point of the Mission Statement.

I also posted earlier the following:
Agreement deal on the land development is achieved between the club and the council.
East Stand is completed.
Land is redeveloped.
KT and DB are repaid their £10m+ 'investor' loan, from the club share of the land deal, when completed.
Club has nil debt.
Club receive increased income from the East Stand facilities, the increased seating and the ongoing club share of the land deal subsequent income.

It's not a quick fix, how long will it take to achieve that following the initial Land development agreement? (the start line)
I would guess that we are looking at anything up to 5 years? Or am I being optimistic?

Is that not a satisfactory solution?
Am I being optimistic or pessimistic, in the opinion of The Trust Board?

GPC. I know that you have only recently taken up a position on the board and intended to keep your personal opinion separate from The Trust perspective but it appears that you have been corralled into being The Trust Board representative spokesperson where borders have merged and become cloudy.
I apologise for that but at the same time thank you.  Hopefully you do realise that it is not personal to either yourself or the individual members of The Trust Board, but as a collective The Trust is losing credibility almost daily with an apparent mismanagement of the Boards raison d'etre.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 19:15:49 pm
I once went to JPG's house in Surrey and I can assure you money really was no object. He had his own state of the art library built into the mansion on several floors and he had staff to maintain it. It was a sight to behold as well as a site to behold!
Did the egg and cress stand up when you had him back at yours?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 19:18:25 pm
As you say that money was nothing to do with the new owners and not part of any deal made going forward. The council took legal action to recover what they could, nothing to do with KT and DB.

To all intents and purposes the money was written off.
Six years later and we are 6 million down again. Anyone reckon Dopey did a better job before he got light fingered?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 19:21:53 pm
Fair pointÖ..I wonder who decides when tax avoidance becomes tax evasionÖ.and therefore it is illegal. What is that line you shouldnít cross?

For example I pay into a smart pension scheme which reduces my overall tax burdenÖ..or I put money into an ISA to reduce my tax outgoingsÖ..both tax avoidance I guess and as you say perfectly legal.


Tax avoidance becomes tax evasion when you lie about you taxable income to reduce you tax liabilities. A simple example is a plumber who does a certain amount of work over a year for cash, but does not declare this cash as income in his books and just pockets it. Years ago when I was self employed my accountant told me to put half of the cash I got paid through the books and that would keep the taxman happy. I do know of one builder who went to do a quote for a job and told the guy he'd get a reduction for cash. Problem was the customer worked at the tax office and the builder got audited and was lucky not to go to jail.
Your ISAs are a great idea and bascially government sanctioned tax avoidance.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 05, 2021, 19:41:29 pm
Fair pointÖ..I wonder who decides when tax avoidance becomes tax evasionÖ.and therefore it is illegal. What is that line you shouldnít cross?

For example I pay into a smart pension scheme which reduces my overall tax burdenÖ..or I put money into an ISA to reduce my tax outgoingsÖ..both tax avoidance I guess and as you say perfectly legal.


There arenít many ways for anyone on PAYE tax to avoid paying it. You highlighted one way to reduce the burden via your pension, which I wouldnít class as avoidance really (in the spirit of the term and they tax your pension anyway), charitable donations another. I donít think my employer would pay my wages into an off shore account.
I doubt that there are too many people who wouldnít avoid paying tax if they could. Ask most self employed people.  :P


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 19:51:07 pm
The government provides a tax avoidance key for everyone that wants one. Tax evasion keys have to be sourced independently.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: West Stand on July 05, 2021, 20:01:47 pm
Fair pointÖ..I wonder who decides when tax avoidance becomes tax evasionÖ.and therefore it is illegal. What is that line you shouldnít cross?

For example I pay into a smart pension sch weeme which reduces my overall tax burdenÖ..or I put money into an ISA to reduce my tax outgoingsÖ..both tax avoidance I guess and as you say perfectly legal.


Pensions and ISAs are vehicles encouraging you to save. With a pension you are deferring the tax liability to a later date, with an ISA you have most likely already paid tax and NIC on when you received the income you have subsequently put into the ISA


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Tabasco Kid on July 05, 2021, 20:08:29 pm
Tax avoidance becomes tax evasion when you lie about you taxable income to reduce you tax liabilities. A simple example is a plumber who does a certain amount of work over a year for cash, but does not declare this cash as income in his books and just pockets it. Years ago when I was self employed my accountant told me to put half of the cash I got paid through the books and that would keep the taxman happy. I do know of one builder who went to do a quote for a job and told the guy he'd get a reduction for cash. Problem was the customer worked at the tax office and the builder got audited and was lucky not to go to jail.
Your ISAs are a great idea and bascially government sanctioned tax avoidance.
Your accountant told you to do 50% of work for cash? Kin ell.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 05, 2021, 20:26:35 pm
Your accountant told you to do 50% of work for cash? Kin ell.

No he told me to put 50% of the cash work I did through the books, I wasn't doing only cash work.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: west stand oap on July 05, 2021, 20:51:43 pm
So in a little over 2 days this thread is already into its 11th page and I am not about to join the debate.
Obviously I have my own views regarding the trust and the ownership of our club but they will not be aired on here despite me being as passionate about the club as anyone.
A brief scan of postings shows we have some schoolboys who purport to know something "but I'm not telling you" and frankly I find it rather odd, despite the threads topic, that so many people take hours out of their lives posting, arguing and debating something they such a miniscule chance of affecting the eventual outcome.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 05, 2021, 21:01:59 pm
So in a little over 2 days this thread is already into its 11th page and I am not about to join the debate.
Obviously I have my own views regarding the trust and the ownership of our club but they will not be aired on here despite me being as passionate about the club as anyone.
A brief scan of postings shows we have some schoolboys who purport to know something "but I'm not telling you" and frankly I find it rather odd, despite the threads topic, that so many people take hours out of their lives posting, arguing and debating something they such a miniscule chance of affecting the eventual outcome.
Save yourself for the opening game of the season thread WSO, if you think you can affect that.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 21:47:32 pm
And if our owners were or had avoided tax you would not have an issue with it?
As they are foreign residents neither KT are liable for tax in the UK. Personally I couldnít give a sh1t if the IRS or the UAE equivalent get their money or not.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 22:18:55 pm
For the sake of clarity tax avoidance is the art of creative accounting where loop holes are found in the tax laws to avoid paying tax. Tax evasion is breaking existing tax laws to avoid paying tax. The name of the game being, the HMRC close the loop hole and clever clogs accountants find another one, at least it was. New tax laws in effect slammed the door shut on all this because it allowed th HMRC to close the loop hole and then apply the rules retrospectively allowing them to tax the persons or companies who used the loophole. Tax avoidance is over for UK residents and has been in OZ since long before I got here. Iíll give you an example of one though. Your company places a bet on your behalf on the stock market to go up in value at virtually even money. It then places a bet on the stock market to go down in value at even money over the same period. You end up with exactly the same money so whatís the point? Well to combat offshore gambling the government made gambling proceeds tax free, so the winnings from the stock market bet are not subject to tax, ta-da. Itís slightly more complicated than that, but that was just one example. Completely legal and above board and was untouchable as far as the HMRC were concerned, although totally morally corrupt. Youíll be delighted to know that following the legislation everyone who did it had to pay the tax back. Just so everyone is aware, most of the main tax authorities such as those in Australia and the UK have an open book policy, so had I have done this I would have been caught over here and been slaughtered. Therefore this idea that you can shift money around the globe and get away with it is completel b0ll0cks, trust me I know. The only organisationís who had the muscle to pull that off were the likes of Amazon and Microsoft and the door has been virtually closed on them as well now. That was boring wasnít it.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 22:53:19 pm
For the sake of clarity tax avoidance is the art of creative accounting where loop holes are found in the tax laws to avoid paying tax. Tax evasion is breaking existing tax laws to avoid paying tax. The name of the game being, the HMRC close the loop hole and clever clogs accountants find another one, at least it was. New tax laws in effect slammed the door shut on all this because it allowed th HMRC to close the loop hole and then apply the rules retrospectively allowing them to tax the persons or companies who used the loophole. Tax avoidance is over for UK residents and has been in OZ since long before I got here. Iíll give you an example of one though. Your company places a bet on your behalf on the stock market to go up in value at virtually even money. It then places a bet on the stock market to go down in value at even money over the same period. You end up with exactly the same money so whatís the point? Well to combat offshore gambling the government made gambling proceeds tax free, so the winnings from the stock market bet are not subject to tax, ta-da. Itís slightly more complicated than that, but that was just one example. Completely legal and above board and was untouchable as far as the HMRC were concerned, although totally morally corrupt. Youíll be delighted to know that following the legislation everyone who did it had to pay the tax back. Just so everyone is aware, most of the main tax authorities such as those in Australia and the UK have an open book policy, so had I have done this I would have been caught over here and been slaughtered. Therefore this idea that you can shift money around the globe and get away with it is completel b0ll0cks, trust me I know. The only organisationís who had the muscle to pull that off were the likes of Amazon and Microsoft and the door has been virtually closed on them as well now. That was boring wasnít it.
There are many many ways to avoid paying tax, personally I pay mine because I believe that high net worth individuals should help fund the social system, there isnít enough investment in social care, mental health the list goes on.
If your comfortable in shell companies in BVI then good for you but one day life has a way of levelling things up from the takers.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 22:54:02 pm
No he told me to put 50% of the cash work I did through the books, I wasn't doing only cash work.
Your making a little bit of this up arenít you  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 22:54:46 pm
We have been through this before with you. It's called tax avoidance. Which is perfectly legal if not morally correct.
Is it the royal we or are you speaking on behalf of the club?
BTW tax avoidance is only legal until you get caught, Wayne Rooney and Lineker, how ingenious.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 23:03:17 pm
There are many many ways to avoid paying tax, personally I pay mine because I believe that high net worth individuals should help fund the social system, there isnít enough investment in social care, mental health the list goes on.
If your comfortable in shell companies in BVI then good for you but one day life has a way of levelling things up from the takers.


For the sake of balance Manny there are business owners I know of who have been brought to their knees by the HMRC and government behaving in morally corrupt ways. And Iím talking about throughly decent people who have always conducted themselves impeccably, not these c***s who take the p1ss, itís far from a one way street. On a separate note despite operating in 2 countries and having 2 sets of accountants between us we havenít the first clue about how to avoid paying tax.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 05, 2021, 23:12:41 pm
For the sake of balance Manny there are business owners I know of who have been brought to their knees by the HMRC and government behaving in morally corrupt ways. And Iím talking about throughly decent people who have always conducted themselves impeccably, not these c***s who take the p1ss, itís far from a one way street. On a separate note despite operating in 2 countries and having 2 sets of accountants between us we havenít the first clue about how to avoid paying tax.
Thatís because you are asking accountants.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CobblerForever on July 05, 2021, 23:34:59 pm
For the sake of balance Manny there are business owners I know of who have been brought to their knees by the HMRC and government behaving in morally corrupt ways. And Iím talking about thoroughly decent people who have always conducted themselves impeccably, not these c***s who take the p1ss, itís far from a one way street. On a separate note despite operating in 2 countries and having 2 sets of accountants between us we havenít the first clue about how to avoid paying tax.

Do you need to use two sets of accountants ? Usually better to use a multi-national firm to keep all your data under the same roof. Make sure you keep a close eye on their fees - get something agreed in advance.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 23:47:13 pm
Do you need to use two sets of accountants ? Usually better to use a multi-national firm to keep all your data under the same roof. Make sure you keep a close eye on their fees - get something agreed in advance.
Bit complicated but we prefer the personal touch from specialist locals. The larger organisations tend to go through a lot of staff and it makes it difficult to build relationships. Also the standards and response times varied considerably in our experience. Fcuk me we are off on a tangent.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 05, 2021, 23:48:16 pm
Thatís because you are asking accountants.
Too scared of the revenue to do anything else mate.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CobblerForever on July 06, 2021, 00:09:46 am
I may have been lucky but I found dealing with Tax Inspectors directly rather than through a firm of Chartered Accountants was easier, cheaper, quicker and often got a better result. Just use the Accountants to audit your draft published accounts and draft tax computations and keep a close eye on any adjustments they propose and why.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 06, 2021, 07:10:19 am
There are many many ways to avoid paying tax, personally I pay mine because I believe that high net worth individuals should help fund the social system, there isnít enough investment in social care, mental health the list goes on.

100% agree and if more high net earners and corporations took that view the world would be a better place.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Another Pedj on July 06, 2021, 09:43:18 am
Lets not be too sanctimonious. There is still plenty of cash in hand, casual work, tips that go undeclared.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 06, 2021, 09:49:35 am
This thread is getting quite taxing.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 06, 2021, 09:53:43 am
There are many many ways to avoid paying tax, personally I pay mine because I believe that high net worth individuals should help fund the social system, there isnít enough investment in social care, mental health the list goes on.

Ah the champagne socialist.

If your own regular nods and winks are to be believed, Manny, you're doing very nicely. Perhaps you could get by with a little less and direct some of your vast estate to the very worthy causes you mention above? I'm not saying that I think you should, but simply paying the taxes you owe is nothing to be proud of.

Maybe you could spend some of the many hours you currently devote to winding people up on here doing some volunteering? We're all Mother Theresa until someone needs their arse wiping.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 06, 2021, 09:57:39 am
Lets not be too sanctimonious. There is still plenty of cash in hand, casual work, tips that go undeclared.

I'm ok with that because you are typically talking about grafters earning lower wages - its the greedy f***ers, top earners and obscenely profitable corporations that don't pay their way - like MW I've been fairly fortunate in my life and I personally think its the right thing to do and nothing to with being sanctimonious or a champagne socialist - although I think MW might have spat out his coffee with that description of him  :)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 06, 2021, 10:10:51 am
...although I think MW might have spat out his coffee with that description of him  :)

I'm sure you're right!
That comment was aimed at the post - I don't know anything about Manny personally (other than he's very rich  ;D)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 06, 2021, 10:53:49 am
If anyone wants to help a middle earning PAYE in the high tax bracket improve their net income by legitimate means Iím all ears  ;D
I think Iíve rinsed it by every means available.
You cash in hand and self employed folks have it easy!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 06, 2021, 11:09:01 am
Someone posted this on Twitter this morning....I don't know how he/she got hold of it but I had seen mention about this letter a few days ago

https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412357252615376898 (https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412357252615376898)

Updated the link as the person replaced the original tweet as they had previously included a personal address on the letter


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Wanderingteyn on July 06, 2021, 11:23:58 am
Someone posted this on Twitter this morning....I don't know how he/she got hold of it but I had seen mention about this letter a few days ago.

https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412328140844802049 (https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412328140844802049)

Wow


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 06, 2021, 11:24:05 am
Someone posted this on Twitter this morning....I don't know how he/she got hold of it but I had seen mention about this letter a few days ago.

https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412328140844802049 (https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412328140844802049)

That's quite damning, isn't it? Of course, it could be an elaborate hoax but it reads like a KT/DB statement.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BrixworthCobbler on July 06, 2021, 11:28:18 am
This thread has the potential to overtake the redevelopment one.

I have never seen this club so divided. It's a complete shambles and an embarrassment.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 06, 2021, 11:49:56 am
Someone posted this on Twitter this morning....I don't know how he/she got hold of it but I had seen mention about this letter a few days ago

https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412357252615376898 (https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412357252615376898)

Updated the link as the person replaced the original tweet as they had previously included a personal address on the letter

This is now getting to be a bit more than just handbags at dawn.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 06, 2021, 11:52:06 am
Your making a little bit of this up arenít you  ;D

No, he said as long as you but a reasonable amount of cash work through the books the revenue will not come looking any closer, if you put no cash work through the books thay know you are trying to take the pŪss.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Travelaway on July 06, 2021, 11:58:22 am
Ive run out of popcorn.. ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Wanderingteyn on July 06, 2021, 12:49:15 pm
If anyone wants to know why things are "so divided" the clue is how this person got their hands on this letter.

I don't think things fans are more divided by the way, most couldn't care either way .I just think the owners want a land deal, the trust are being cautious after last time and some fans are unquestionably loyal to the owners despite everything that's gone on in the past.

Personally it leaves a bad taste in the mouth, all this constant sniping against the trust from club owners and employees. Constant reminders of how we were "saved". Apparently now the owners "saved" us when the 5usport deal fell through.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 06, 2021, 12:49:20 pm
Hereís one for you, why donít the club just come out and make a statement?
This isnít going away so one statement would stop all this confusion and potentially false allegations.

OVER TO THE CLUB.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 06, 2021, 12:57:26 pm
I'm sure you're right!
That comment was aimed at the post - I don't know anything about Manny personally (other than he's very rich  ;D)
Considerably richer than thou.  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Wanderingteyn on July 06, 2021, 12:58:49 pm
Hereís one for you, why donít the club just come out and make a statement?
This isnít going away so one statement would stop all this confusion and potentially false allegations.

OVER TO THE CLUB.

Agree


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 06, 2021, 13:02:40 pm
Agree
I tell you what else, it will stop a lot of the bickering on here and we can get back to talking about players that wonít sign for us  ;D
Seriously this is the last thing KT needs to get the land deal done.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Battery Man on July 06, 2021, 13:28:05 pm
If the points made in the letter are true then that is pretty damning for the Trust if, as suggested they have been trying to get journalists to do an expose on the club without proof that goes way outside what I would expect from someone who has the best interests of the club at heart if they haven't got the proof!
I would also say that if what is written in the letter is false and the Trust haven't done this then our owners have serious questions to answer as this makes the trust out to be working to their own agenda and not in line with what it was set up for.
Can anyone from the Trust come out and state this is untrue?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 06, 2021, 13:32:17 pm
Hereís one for you, why donít the club just come out and make a statement?
This isnít going away so one statement would stop all this confusion and potentially false allegations.

OVER TO THE CLUB.

I'm paraphrasing here, as the tweet has disappeared, but I think I remember when reading it that it said that this matter had been raised before to DB/KT and they had answered, verbally and in a minuted meeting.
If anyone has copied the text please correct this if wrong.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 06, 2021, 13:37:03 pm
If the points made in the letter are true then that is pretty damning for the Trust if, as suggested they have been trying to get journalists to do an expose on the club without proof that goes way outside what I would expect from someone who has the best interests of the club at heart if they haven't got the proof!
I would also say that if what is written in the letter is false and the Trust haven't done this then our owners have serious questions to answer as this makes the trust out to be working to their own agenda and not in line with what it was set up for.
Can anyone from the Trust come out and state this is untrue?

I mostly agree with that, however I would say that if it does turn out to be false, just because it appears to be on club headed stationery doesn't mean it was necessarily put out by the club - any monkey with Word and a sample of the club letterheads could knock something like that together.

Still, it's very easy for either the club or the Trust to confirm if it's genuine or not!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 06, 2021, 13:51:11 pm
Further context...

https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412381169610637316 (https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412381169610637316)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 06, 2021, 13:56:47 pm
Hereís one for you, why donít the club just come out and make a statement?
This isnít going away so one statement would stop all this confusion and potentially false allegations.

OVER TO THE CLUB.

They don't have to. I actually respect them for not publishing that letter and clearly tried to deal with it privately via the Trust. They well and truly got it with both barrels.
The question is who tweeted it? It's either someone from the Trust or the club and I'm sure the conspiracy theorists can fill their boots.

The club clearly have a tread a little bit carefully but you can almost guarantee the majority of supporters will back them over the current Trust set up.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 06, 2021, 14:17:03 pm
The full letter is still up and I am sure plenty of you will know the Twitterer. Mark Church also screen grabbed.
If it's not already it will be all over FB.

https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412360581932371968/photo/1



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 06, 2021, 14:36:27 pm
The full letter is still up and I am sure plenty of you will know the Twitterer. Mark Church also screen grabbed.
If it's not already it will be all over FB.

https://twitter.com/ijg1979/status/1412360581932371968/photo/1


TBH the letter answers nothing itís more hot air, posting it on Twitter is also not very helpful IMO.

Itís now all out war between the club and the Trust, itís all very undignified and quite frankly embarrassing.

Thereís never any smoke without fire, conversely the Trust need to make public all they know and in laymanís terms so fans can get there heads around it.

If I was KT and these were false accusations I would sue them.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BrixworthCobbler on July 06, 2021, 14:42:53 pm
TBH the letter answers nothing itís more hot air, posting it on Twitter is also not very helpful IMO.

Itís now all out war between the club and the Trust, itís all very undignified and quite frankly embarrassing.

Thereís never any smoke without fire, conversely the Trust need to make public all they know and in laymanís terms so fans can get there heads around it.

If I was KT and these were false accusations I would sue them.

Headline - 'Club Chairman sues own supporters trust'

Whilst I agree in principle and get the wider point you're making, he simply wouldn't do that


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 06, 2021, 14:45:31 pm
Headline - 'Club Chairman sues own supporters trust'

Whilst I agree in principle and get the wider point you're making, he simply wouldn't do that
The trouble is you canít have this sort of thing floating around if itís not got any truth to it.
The reputation of KT and DB is paramount in what they do.
Just because they are a supporters Trust doesnít give them license to pedal lies.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 06, 2021, 14:46:18 pm
Headline - 'Club Chairman sues own supporters trust'

Whilst I agree in principle and get the wider point you're making, he simply wouldn't do that

TBH at the moment , he doesn't need to.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 06, 2021, 14:48:22 pm
TBH the letter answers nothing itís more hot air, posting it on Twitter is also not very helpful IMO.

Itís now all out war between the club and the Trust, itís all very undignified and quite frankly embarrassing.

Thereís never any smoke without fire, conversely the Trust need to make public all they know and in laymanís terms so fans can get there heads around it.

If I was KT and these were false accusations I would sue them.

Have they actually made any accusations? There has been a lot of inuendo and rumours, but I'm not sure anything libelous has come from the Trust(maybe a few comments on here are close though).


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 06, 2021, 14:52:13 pm
Have they actually made any accusations? There has been a lot of inuendo and rumours, but I'm not sure anything libelous has come from the Trust(maybe a few comments on here are close though).
It needs to end, one way or another.
I donít think anyone on here has said they have broken the law TBF.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Battery Man on July 06, 2021, 15:09:38 pm
It needs to end, one way or another.
I donít think anyone on here has said they have broken the law TBF.


Fully agree with this, whether you believe KT or the Trust this bickering needs to stop, if the Trust aren't careful and don't play this right this could end up finishing them. I have been critical of the trusts actions, however, we need a Trust so this needs sorting out quickly.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 06, 2021, 15:19:40 pm
Fully agree with this, whether you believe KT or the Trust this bickering needs to stop, if the Trust aren't careful and don't play this right this could end up finishing them. I have been critical of the trusts actions, however, we need a Trust so this needs sorting out quickly.
+1


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 06, 2021, 15:20:27 pm
Headline - 'Club Chairman sues own supporters trust'

Whilst I agree in principle and get the wider point you're making, he simply wouldn't do that

I think he has given them enough rope.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 06, 2021, 15:42:02 pm
Let's be honest about this. The whole thing has obviously been orchestrated by a party or parties unknown who obviously have a grudge against the club and it's current owners. However this cannot become the start fo the finish for The Trust. The Trust can and should work with the club for the benefit of the fans, but The Trust in it's present guise is making itself look very foolish. For The Trust to continue there has to be some serious changes and the egos that are there now need to be put in check. I for one would be unhappy if The Trust were to disappear.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: pattcobb on July 06, 2021, 15:47:31 pm
Fully agree with this, whether you believe KT or the Trust this bickering needs to stop, if the Trust aren't careful and don't play this right this could end up finishing them. I have been critical of the trusts actions, however, we need a Trust so this needs sorting out quickly.

Maybe start another organisation, a rival trust. In the mists of time didn't Sixfields Travel form out of disillusioned Trust Travel Club punters?

Absurd? I reckon I've read worse on here


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 06, 2021, 17:25:19 pm
It needs to end, one way or another.
I donít think anyone on here has said they have broken the law TBF.


Fully agree with this, whether you believe KT or the Trust this bickering needs to stop, if the Trust aren't careful and don't play this right this could end up finishing them. I have been critical of the trusts actions, however, we need a Trust so this needs sorting out quickly.

Let's be honest about this. The whole thing has obviously been orchestrated by a party or parties unknown who obviously have a grudge against the club and it's current owners. However this cannot become the start fo the finish for The Trust. The Trust can and should work with the club for the benefit of the fans, but The Trust in it's present guise is making itself look very foolish. For The Trust to continue there has to be some serious changes and the egos that are there now need to be put in check. I for one would be unhappy if The Trust were to disappear.

Yep, yep and yep!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 06, 2021, 17:54:37 pm
I donít think for one minute the Trust board are completely unified over this issue anyway let alone the support base, if they are it will be the first board in history? Perhaps it has been marginalised by 2 or 3 individuals. The main issue I remain to have is that given the discussions I have had with other members I donít believe it represents the majority view of its membership. I also believe that the board have tried to put a veneer of compliance with its mission statement by appearing to do the right thing rather than actually doing the right thing. This defence of using the statement ďin the opinion of the boardĒ as justification for apparently acting in the interests of the members doesnít follow in the spirit of the organisation IMO. I mean WTF, that just gives licence for the board to do what it wants when it wants without reproach and thatís nonsense. Itís the subjective commentary to vindicate their actions that I find controversial, such as ďmanyĒ members and the like. There is rarely if ever any exact quantification with regards to the endorsement of the membership to any action to support it. Even on the pages of this thread the ďopinion of the boardĒ defence has been used.

As an example if this is wrong then I would ask the board of the trust to quantify exactly how many members endorsed its withdrawal of support for the development. This would then justify the ďin the opinion of the boardĒ precedent to support this action. If they canít or wonít and the board truly believe that this is in the true spirit of the organisation then I am afraid IMO it is lost. This has been coming for a while and is going to end in tears, and I donít think itís the clubs owners or ďmanyĒ members that will need the Kleenex either.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 07, 2021, 10:30:55 am
Please please please tell me the Trust haven't gone to any media outlet trying to get a dirt piece written.
Is the relationship that bad that you would sh1t on the owners from that high. What would it achieve? "oh look were in the Daily Star, we better sell the club to the Trust for a £1 and grovel". Or would it push them even further to say F*ck it and sell to any idiot like we've seen at far too many clubs.
If you had real dirt you should have gone to the Police, HMRC, council... any authority. Clearly you didn't so what was the desired outcome.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 07, 2021, 10:35:32 am
Please please please tell me the Trust haven't gone to any media outlet trying to get a dirt piece written.
Is the relationship that bad that you would sh1t on the owners from that high. What would it achieve? "oh look were in the Daily Star, we better sell the club to the Trust for a £1 and grovel". Or would it push them even further to say F*ck it and sell to any idiot like we've seen at far too many clubs.
If you had real dirt you should have gone to the Police, HMRC, council... any authority. Clearly you didn't so what was the desired outcome.
I agree, but what would you think if they haven't but the club are telling it otherwise!
Is there at this stage a definitive answer to that, it needs to be known if there is?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: rebelspawn on July 07, 2021, 10:40:38 am
I agree, but what would you think if they haven't but the club are telling it otherwise!
Is there at this stage a definitive answer to that, it needs to be known if there is?

Well its very difficult for the trust to prove the negative (that they didn't go to the press for a hit piece).  They should confirm or deny though.

If they deny, then i would say that the onus lies with the club to provide actual evidence that they did


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 07, 2021, 10:44:22 am
I agree, but what would you think if they haven't but the club are telling it otherwise!
Is there at this stage a definitive answer to that, it needs to be known if there is?
If the Trust have evidence of wrong doing, if they publicly state that they haven't contacted any local or national media, then they will have my backing.
I don't want to see the evidence, but I would like to know they have gone to the correct authorities.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 07, 2021, 11:25:03 am
I doubt we'll get an answer to this. IF the Trust did go to the press to try and trigger a hatchet job then they won't want to admit to it, but if they deny it and IF the club really do have the evidence described in the letter then they would have carte blanche to release it, prove the Trust were lying and win the war.

If the club make the first move and release the "evidence" then they will be seen as the aggressor and it won't do them any favours as they are attacking their own supporters Trust.

The only way I can see anything coming out is if the letter is a complete fake and either the club or the Trust or both announce it as such. The fact that hasn't happened makes me think the letter is legit (I'm not commenting on whether what it says is true, just that it probably really was a letter from the club to the Trust).

Otherwise it's Catch-22, stalemate, call it what you will - it's a move no one will want to make.

Either way, it's a pretty sorry situation that no one comes out of well, even before you get to question of how the person on Twitter got hold of a copy...


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 07, 2021, 11:28:48 am
I believe the club are insinuating they have been told by journalists, bit of a risk to make that up if it isnít true? I would suggest either the club or the Trust have a real problem coming.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 07, 2021, 11:42:59 am
I believe the club are insinuating they have been told by journalists, bit of a risk to make that up if it isnít true? I would suggest either the club or the Trust have a real problem coming.
If the trust have done this then they need winding up and a new supporters trust not tarnished by the old one needs forming.

If the trust can prove there has been wrongdoing from the club then they have every right to make their findings public to the supporters of the club and continue as is.

This canít be brushed under the carpet


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 07, 2021, 11:50:38 am
If the trust have done this then they need winding up and a new supporters trust not tarnished by the old one needs forming.

If the trust can prove there has been wrongdoing from the club then they have every right to make their findings public to the supporters of the club and continue as is.

This canít be brushed under the carpet

Completely agree. I guess there is one other option - if this did happen and it can be traced back to one individual acting on their own then the Trust could (and I'd argue should) just throw that individual under the bus. I hasten to add I know nothing about it this is the case or not! I do get the impression there are factions within the Trust though and I don't think all of those factions are particularly helpful, so it wouldn't surprise me if this were the case, particularly as I genuinely believe the majority of the Trust are well intentioned.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 07, 2021, 11:54:23 am
I believe the club are insinuating they have been told by journalists, bit of a risk to make that up if it isnít true? I would suggest either the club or the Trust have a real problem coming.
Itís not difficult to work out which ďjournalistsĒ have told them, I donít think we have to look that far TBH.

The letter in question, now how did that find its way onto Twitter?
Thereís only two ways, from the club or the recipient, this really is turning nasty.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Wanderingteyn on July 07, 2021, 12:29:23 pm
Itís not difficult to work out which ďjournalistsĒ have told them, I donít think we have to look that far TBH.

The letter in question, now how did that find its way onto Twitter?
Thereís only two ways, from the club or the recipient, this really is turning nasty.

Letter thing is pretty clear.

Fan asked for info, club shared with fan, fan puts on Twitter.

No real issue from me as the club said they're happy to share any comms they've had with the Trust to anybody that asks as they feel like they've done nothing wrong and happy to be transparent - which people kick them for.

My issue is it should all be played out and sorted out behind closed doors, this is doing nobody any good and neither side comes out with any real credit.

The trust should rightly scrutinise the club but there is a way of going about things and my view is the Trust have the tone wrong and the approach wrong.

The club should have been more clear earlier and should have been more open and honest all along, we'd probably never have got to this point if that was the case.

Overall, both at fault and roll on the actual football.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 07, 2021, 12:46:17 pm
Storm in a tea cup springs to mind.
The only thing really coming out of this is that the Trust are clearly not currently a cohesive and well run organisation, who represent their membership and definitely not the common fan.
You can think what you will but I don't believe for one second that the club are making these allegations up about the press. I also don't believe they were behind the publication of the letter, although this isn't known. It doesn't take a genius to work out that the nationals have been knocking on the door armed with information, which the club clearly know came from the Trust...or individual(s) deeply embedded in the Trust.
If the letter doesn't actually exist then there are some people about a lot sadder than I thought.

Silence from both parties is probably the best option.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 07, 2021, 13:24:02 pm
Completely agree. I guess there is one other option - if this did happen and it can be traced back to one individual acting on their own then the Trust could (and I'd argue should) just throw that individual under the bus. I hasten to add I know nothing about it this is the case or not! I do get the impression there are factions within the Trust though and I don't think all of those factions are particularly helpful, so it wouldn't surprise me if this were the case, particularly as I genuinely believe the majority of the Trust are well intentioned.
I've been critical of the Trust and IF the press thing is true, the person(s) involved should leave the board. However I dont agree that they should be thrown under a bus or anything public. I dont doubt their passion for the club, and Im sure they believed they were doing the right thing. This shouldn't become personal to individual(s) and have any personal impact


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 07, 2021, 13:26:01 pm
If the club make the first move and release the "evidence" then they will be seen as the aggressor and it won't do them any favours as they are attacking their own supporters Trust.
Not sure I agree with this. From the body of opinion already on here most people seem to view the clubs account with more validity than the Trusts so I dont think the club going public is going to change the majority opinion. Why should the club have any regrets about anything then if they simply clarify their position with evidence.
On the other hand if they choose not to, won't add fuel to the idea that the Trust are being unfairly kicked by the club?

To paraphrase Tel.
IF THE CLUB HAVE ANY EVIDENCE WHICH DISCR3DITS THE TRUST THEN STOP **** FOOTING AROUND AND PUBLISH IT 😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤪

Lol.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 07, 2021, 13:29:07 pm
Not sure I agree with this. From the body of opinion already on here most people seem to view the clubs account with more validity than the Trusts so I dont think the club going public is going to change the majority opinion. Why should the club have any regrets about anything then if they simply clarify their position with evidence.
On the other hand if they choose not to, won't add fuel to the idea that the Trust are being unfairly kicked by the club?

To paraphrase Tel.
IF THE CLUB HAVE ANY EVIDENCE WHICH DISCR3DITS THE TRUST THEN STOP **** FOOTING AROUND AND PUBLISH IT 😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤪

Lol.

You may be right. It's all pretty unseemly, to be honest.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: everbrite on July 07, 2021, 13:51:07 pm
This continual argument ref the Club v Trust seems to be getting out of hand; judging by some of the recent contributions.
IMO we may well need the Trust in the future as a rallying point if things get dodgy.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 07, 2021, 13:53:18 pm
In case anyone missed it, itís pretty clear the letter was given to a fan who asked KT for info, who then decided to publish it. Over on ĎShoe Armyí FB page.
Unless KT is really green, he probably had a good idea it would end up in the public domain.
Make if that as you will but itís not going to make front page national news.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Another Pedj on July 07, 2021, 14:07:34 pm
This continual argument ref the Club v Trust seems to be getting out of hand; judging by some of the recent contributions.
IMO we may well need the Trust in the future as a rallying point if things get dodgy.

If that situation arises would you seriously  wish to have anyone connected to the Trust board involved?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 07, 2021, 14:45:58 pm
The letter in question, now how did that find its way onto Twitter?
Thereís only two ways, from the club or the recipient, this really is turning nasty.

Here's what I know.

The trust released their statement on Saturday.  On Twitter and Facebook various debates ensued about the trust statement with many of the usual suspects from both sides appearing and shouting each other down.  Ian Gill (I doubt he'll mind me naming him as his identity is on the letter he released asked the Trust Reps/Members that were debating him to release a 5 page letter regarding the Chinese deal from last year.  He made this request about 4/5 times to the various individuals.  Do you know what happened?  All of those that were giving him a hard time dissapeared from the conversation and no further replies were made.  Not even a "what document are you talking about?".

I found this interesting and why I mentioned something along these lines in my posts earlier in the week.  A) what is the document and B) He'd clearly hit a nerve from the sudden climb down and lack of reponse.  Over the next few days he asked again a few times from what I can see.  Silence from the trust side of the debate.

In the absence of any replies to his request he then posted a tweet yesterday containing the letter in question (see my earlier links).  He had to take down his tweet because he had rather stupidly left the recipients full address on it.  So he reposted apologising and having covered the address.

He then posted the covering letter from Kelvin to him which explains why the letter from last year had been supplied to him.  Ian claims he had permission to share it which in fairness is implied in Kelvins letter in that he would have expected the Trust to have shared it with it's members last year.

So why does any of this matter?  Well to some that don't care it doesn't and if so why are you even reading this?

To those that do care from EITHER side I think it's important.

I see people online mainly those linked to the Trust dismissing it as "it tells us nothing we didn't already know".  Well that might be the case  TODAY although I doubt there isn't some new content in there for some people.  Even if it's just the allegations regarding the trust or their reps contacting media outlets.  Which if true by the way surely any fan or member would have questions about?

Ask yourself would it have told you something new last September when they were sent it?  Did you know the Trust had put these accusations directly to KT and that he had responded with an explanation?  Did they put that in their timeline at the weekend?  Does it make the decision to publicly back the development deal two weeks after this letter even more confusing?  Did this letter clear up their concerns?  Were they backed into a corner?  If they still had concerns why did they agree to support the deal?  What's changed since then and now?

Is it starting to make sense now why I asked the questions I did on Monday?  It's all about timing and context and supporters being given all the information to make their own minds up not a partial view.  

Information is 100% the reason I asked the Trust questions the other day.  I'm not trying to hang anyone out to dry here.  Which by the way I emailed my questions to the Trust on Monday evening as requested and will share the answers with everyone when I get a reply if anyone is interested.

Of course all this looks like I'm giving the trust a hard time and in fairness I am.   But my motivation is becuase I don't want a partial version of events I want THE version of events.  Don't tell me KT/the club won't answer your 25 questions...tell me they wouldn't in writing but offered a Zoom meeting for all supporters which we declined.  If you are meeting with councillors to voice your concerns tell me what those concerns are and minute the meeting so I can see what exactly was discussed.  If you have concerns about the Chinese deal tell me specifically what they are and whether you have spoken to the relevant authorities and what did they say?  If you had concerns and raised it with the club what did they say?

All this matters because you are then being completely transparent and open which is what they should ALWAYS be because they are acting for their membership and ultimately ALL OF US SUPPORTERS.  You then put yourself in a perfect position of power to then criticise the owners of the club for not doing the same.

In the same way the Trust shouldn't have to send 25 questions to KT in writing I shouldn't have to send 10 questions via email to the Trust to obtain information I should already have been told or could access on their website.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 07, 2021, 14:46:13 pm
IMO we may well need the Trust in the future as a rallying point if things get dodgy.

I'd argue that we may well benefit from a trust.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 07, 2021, 14:48:12 pm
Without prejudice, I think the Trust are alleging that,

KT and DB received £6.7m for 60% of their shares
5 U sport didnít deliver any more capital after the initial £6.7m and therefore breached the contract.
KT and DB then reacquired control of the club AND kept the £6.7m less costs?

IMO whilst they are entitled to do this, they then want the £10/£7m debt back (which they are absolutely entitled to) and then half the profit of the land without outlining whatís in it for the club.

To me the trust are simply trying to outline whatís in this for the club aside from completion of the east stand and a debt free club. Remember according to the Trust allegedly KT AND DB have already pocketed circa £6m from their association and to date havenít honoured their commitment to complete the stand.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 07, 2021, 14:49:50 pm
Here's what I know.

The trust released their statement on Saturday.  On Twitter and Facebook various debates ensued about the trust statement with many of the usual suspects from both sides appearing and shouting each other down.  Ian Gill (I doubt he'll mind me naming him as his identity is on the letter he released asked the Trust Reps/Members that were debating him to release a 5 page letter regarding the Chinese deal from last year.  He made this request about 4/5 times to the various individuals.  Do you know what happened?  All of those that were giving him a hard time dissapeared from the conversation and no further replies were made.  Not even a "what document are you talking about?".

I found this interesting and why I mentioned something along these lines in my posts earlier in the week.  A) what is the document and B) He'd clearly hit a nerve from the sudden climb down and lack of reponse.  Over the next few days he asked again a few times from what I can see.  Silence from the trust side of the debate.

In the absence of any replies to his request he then posted a tweet yesterday containing the letter in question (see my earlier links).  He had to take down his tweet because he had rather stupidly left the recipients full address on it.  So he reposted apologising and having covered the address.

He then posted the covering letter from Kelvin to him which explains why the letter from last year had been supplied to him.  Ian claims he had permission to share it which in fairness is implied in Kelvins letter in that he would have expected the Trust to have shared it with it's members last year.

So why does any of this matter?  Well to some that don't care it doesn't and if so why are you even reading this?

To those that do care from EITHER side I think it's important.

I see people online mainly those linked to the Trust dismissing it as "it tells us nothing we didn't already know".  Well that might be the case  TODAY although I doubt there isn't some new content in there for some people.  Even if it's just the allegations regarding the trust or their reps contacting media outlets.  Which if true by the way surely any fan or member would have questions about?

Ask yourself would it have told you something new last September when they were sent it?  Did you know the Trust had put these accusations directly to KT and that he had responded with an explanation?  Did they put that in their timeline at the weekend?  Does it make the decision to publicly back the development deal two weeks after this letter even more confusing?  Did this letter clear up their concerns?  Were they backed into a corner?  If they still had concerns why did they agree to support the deal?  What's changed since then and now?

Is it starting to make sense now why I asked the questions I did on Monday?  It's all about timing and context and supporters being given all the information to make their own minds up not a partial view.  

Information is 100% the reason I asked the Trust questions the other day.  I'm not trying to hang anyone out to dry here.  Which by the way I emailed my questions to the Trust on Monday evening as requested and will share the answers with everyone when I get a reply if anyone is interested.

Of course all this looks like I'm giving the trust a hard time and in fairness I am.   But my motivation is becuase I don't want a partial version of events I want THE version of events.  Don't tell me KT/the club won't answer your 25 questions...tell me they wouldn't in writing but offered a Zoom meeting for all supporters which we declined.  If you are meeting with councillors to voice your concerns tell me what those concerns are and minute the meeting so I can see what exactly was discussed.  If you have concerns about the Chinese deal tell me specifically what they are and whether you have spoken to the relevant authorities and what did they say?  If you had concerns and raised it with the club what did they say?

All this matters because you are then being completely transparent and open which is what they should ALWAYS be because they are acting for their membership and ultimately ALL OF US SUPPORTERS.  You then put yourself in a perfect position of power to then criticise the owners of the club for not doing the same.

In the same way the Trust shouldn't have to send 25 questions to KT in writing I shouldn't have to send 10 questions via email to the Trust to obtain information I should already have been told or could access on their website.

Really excellent post


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 07, 2021, 14:56:49 pm
I'd argue that we may well benefit from a trust.

Exactly the point - any Trust, particularly in difficult times needs to be fit for purpose and representing the majority view of its membership - if it doesnít do this or portrays itself as some moral/legal guardian of the club then the individual should form an organisation neither labelled as a trust nor suggesting the represent the majority of fans - Iíve no idea of the truth behind the developing spat but I certainly donít feel the trust is behaving in the manner the original trust concept embraced.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 07, 2021, 14:56:55 pm
Here's what I know.

The trust released their statement on Saturday.  On Twitter and Facebook various debates ensued about the trust statement with many of the usual suspects from both sides appearing and shouting each other down.  Ian Gill (I doubt he'll mind me naming him as his identity is on the letter he released asked the Trust Reps/Members that were debating him to release a 5 page letter regarding the Chinese deal from last year.  He made this request about 4/5 times to the various individuals.  Do you know what happened?  All of those that were giving him a hard time dissapeared from the conversation and no further replies were made.  Not even a "what document are you talking about?".

I found this interesting and why I mentioned something along these lines in my posts earlier in the week.  A) what is the document and B) He'd clearly hit a nerve from the sudden climb down and lack of reponse.  Over the next few days he asked again a few times from what I can see.  Silence from the trust side of the debate.

In the absence of any replies to his request he then posted a tweet yesterday containing the letter in question (see my earlier links).  He had to take down his tweet because he had rather stupidly left the recipients full address on it.  So he reposted apologising and having covered the address.

He then posted the covering letter from Kelvin to him which explains why the letter from last year had been supplied to him.  Ian claims he had permission to share it which in fairness is implied in Kelvins letter in that he would have expected the Trust to have shared it with it's members last year.

So why does any of this matter?  Well to some that don't care it doesn't and if so why are you even reading this?

To those that do care from EITHER side I think it's important.

I see people online mainly those linked to the Trust dismissing it as "it tells us nothing we didn't already know".  Well that might be the case  TODAY although I doubt there isn't some new content in there for some people.  Even if it's just the allegations regarding the trust or their reps contacting media outlets.  Which if true by the way surely any fan or member would have questions about?

Ask yourself would it have told you something new last September when they were sent it?  Did you know the Trust had put these accusations directly to KT and that he had responded with an explanation?  Did they put that in their timeline at the weekend?  Does it make the decision to publicly back the development deal two weeks after this letter even more confusing?  Did this letter clear up their concerns?  Were they backed into a corner?  If they still had concerns why did they agree to support the deal?  What's changed since then and now?

Is it starting to make sense now why I asked the questions I did on Monday?  It's all about timing and context and supporters being given all the information to make their own minds up not a partial view.  

Information is 100% the reason I asked the Trust questions the other day.  I'm not trying to hang anyone out to dry here.  Which by the way I emailed my questions to the Trust on Monday evening as requested and will share the answers with everyone when I get a reply if anyone is interested.

Of course all this looks like I'm giving the trust a hard time and in fairness I am.   But my motivation is becuase I don't want a partial version of events I want THE version of events.  Don't tell me KT/the club won't answer your 25 questions...tell me they wouldn't in writing but offered a Zoom meeting for all supporters which we declined.  If you are meeting with councillors to voice your concerns tell me what those concerns are and minute the meeting so I can see what exactly was discussed.  If you have concerns about the Chinese deal tell me specifically what they are and whether you have spoken to the relevant authorities and what did they say?  If you had concerns and raised it with the club what did they say?

All this matters because you are then being completely transparent and open which is what they should ALWAYS be because they are acting for their membership and ultimately ALL OF US SUPPORTERS.  You then put yourself in a perfect position of power to then criticise the owners of the club for not doing the same.

In the same way the Trust shouldn't have to send 25 questions to KT in writing I shouldn't have to send 10 questions via email to the Trust to obtain information I should already have been told or could access on their website.
I canít really disagree with any of that apart from its all aimed at the Trust, surely the exact same questions should be asked of the club?
Iím all for balance but at the moment everything is against the Trust, quite rightly we should have transparency from them BUT the same goes for the club and Iím not seeing thatÖÖ


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 07, 2021, 14:59:18 pm
Exactly the point - any Trust, particularly in difficult times needs to be fit for purpose and representing the majority view of its membership - if it doesnít do this or portrays itself as some moral/legal guardian of the club then the individual should form an organisation neither labelled as a trust nor suggesting the represent the majority of fans - Iíve no idea of the truth behind the developing spat but I certainly donít feel the trust is behaving in the manner the original trust concept embraced.
WHAT ABOUT THE CLUBS BEHAVIOUR?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 07, 2021, 15:00:42 pm
Without prejudice, I think the Trust are alleging that,

KT and DB received £6.7m for 60% of their shares
5 U sport didnít deliver any more capital after the initial £6.7m and therefore breached the contract.
KT and DB then reacquired control of the club AND kept the £6.7m less costs?

IMO whilst they are entitled to do this, they then want the £10/£7m debt back (which they are absolutely entitled to) and then half the profit of the land without outlining whatís in it for the club.

To me the trust are simply trying to outline whatís in this for the club aside from completion of the east stand and a debt free club. Remember according to the Trust allegedly KT AND DB have already pocketed circa £6m from their association and to date havenít honoured their commitment to complete the stand.


Manny, whilst your line of argument is very consistent it also has some holes in it.

1. None of us know how much of the agreed consideration KT & DB actually received for their shares and/or how much of that was cash and/or how much of it was returned when the whole 5USport thing fell over. Correct me if I'm wrong?
2. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, that is between them and 5USport. You & I may not like it, but that alone doesn't mean anyone has done anything wrong
3. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, they have to-date ploughed £6-7m into the club's running costs, so they are at best back where they started and at worst £6-7m down on the deal as things stand

I asked you a couple of direct questions on a related thread, before all this blew up, and you chose to ignore them. I'll try again with one more:
Is this latest 'revelation' from the Trust the same thing(s) you've been relentlessly hinting about on here for weeks, when implying that there has been some less than savoury activity going on at the club and/or at the hands of the current ownership?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 07, 2021, 15:10:30 pm
Without prejudice, I think the Trust are alleging that,

KT and DB received £6.7m for 60% of their shares
5 U sport didnít deliver any more capital after the initial £6.7m and therefore breached the contract.
KT and DB then reacquired control of the club AND kept the £6.7m less costs?

IMO whilst they are entitled to do this, they then want the £10/£7m debt back (which they are absolutely entitled to) and then half the profit of the land without outlining whatís in it for the club.

To me the trust are simply trying to outline whatís in this for the club aside from completion of the east stand and a debt free club. Remember according to the Trust allegedly KT AND DB have already pocketed circa £6m from their association and to date havenít honoured their commitment to complete the stand.

Good summary and not withstanding itís an understanding rather than a statement of fact but probably clarifies a rather confused picture - however a couple of points, firstly on both the issues you concede the owners are entitled to take that course of action (even if we donít think itís the best deal for the club) - if thatís the case statement made so why does it need all these bitter exchanges. Secondly and I know Iím repeating myself but no one (on here at least) actually knows what money changed hands on the Chinese - for those hell bent on accusing the owners of self interest itís petrol on the fire to say they pocketed £6 million plus but in reality we donít actually know


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 07, 2021, 15:15:13 pm
WHAT ABOUT THE CLUBS BEHAVIOUR?


No need for SHOUT MAIL 😁

Absolutely the club does have some significant transparency and time line questions but I was specifically addressing the rather naive comment that we need the trust.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 07, 2021, 15:19:03 pm
Manny, whilst your line of argument is very consistent it also has some holes in it.

1. None of us know how much of the agreed consideration KT & DB actually received for their shares and/or how much of that was cash and/or how much of it was returned when the whole 5USport thing fell over. Correct me if I'm wrong?
2. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, that is between them and 5USport. You & I may not like it, but that alone doesn't mean anyone has done anything wrong
3. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, they have to-date ploughed £6-7m into the club's running costs, so they are at best back where they started and at worst £6-7m down on the deal as things stand

I asked you a couple of direct questions on a related thread, before all this blew up, and you chose to ignore them. I'll try again with one more:
Is this latest 'revelation' from the Trust the same thing(s) you've been relentlessly hinting about on here for weeks, when implying that there has been some less than savoury activity going on at the club and/or at the hands of the current ownership?
I agree with all that except I believe the Trust has evidence of the transactions.
I did know all of this prior to the release.
Some people have been going over the top with accusations, which in a vacuum of information from the club was always going to happen.
I have no further comments.

I think the point is KT and DB have according to the Trust broken even and still are pleading poverty, you donít need to be a rocket scientist to know that will pÓss important people off.

IMO the club needs to clear this up once and for all and put it to bed.
Letís have a good deal of KT, DB, the club and council, FFS put the egos down get around a table and bash out a deal. I always find a meeting with no chairs gets to a satisfactory conclusion quicker.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 07, 2021, 15:21:59 pm
No need for SHOUT MAIL 😁

Absolutely the club does have some significant transparency and time line questions but I was specifically addressing the rather naive comment that we need the trust.
SORRY 🤫


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 07, 2021, 15:24:15 pm


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 07, 2021, 15:26:28 pm


IMO the club needs to clear this up once and for all and put it to bed.
Letís have a good deal of KT, DB, the club and council, FFS put the egos down get around a table and bash out a deal. I always find a meeting with no chairs gets to a satisfactory conclusion quicker.


Wisest words of today!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 07, 2021, 15:26:35 pm
I agree with all that except I believe the Trust has evidence of the transactions.
I did know all of this prior to the release.
Some people have been going over the top with accusations, which in a vacuum of information from the club was always going to happen.
I have no further comments.

I think the point is KT and DB have according to the Trust broken even and still are pleading poverty, you donít need to be a rocket scientist to know that will pÓss important people off.

IMO the club needs to clear this up once and for all and put it to bed.
Letís have a good deal of KT, DB, the club and council, FFS put the egos down get around a table and bash out a deal. I always find a meeting with no chairs gets to a satisfactory conclusion quicker.


Fair enough, and I agree that assuming the club/owners could have seen this coming (seems reasonable) they could have headed it all off with a bit more transparency. That's not to say they had to but could have been to everyone's benefit in the long run.

If you don't mind me saying though, after all the grandstanding from yourself and others about 'when the truth comes out'... 'the truth' was a bit of a let down.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 07, 2021, 15:37:57 pm

If you don't mind me saying though, after all the grandstanding from yourself and others about 'when the truth comes out'... 'the truth' was a bit of a let down.

What, owners may or may not have made some money from a share transaction they were entitled to make in a deal that fell through?  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 07, 2021, 15:54:17 pm
What, owners may or may not have made some money from a share transaction they were entitled to make in a deal that fell through?  ;D
No one does a deal where the other party is able to walk off with 6.75 million for doing sod all, no one. There are a shed load of checks and balances put in by the lawyers, everyone knows that. Why would the owners of 5U Sport expose themselves like that. Now some are claiming it has happened twice in 2 years or so at Sixfields by pure incompetence alone. Sorry I might end up with egg on my face but Iím not having any of it.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 07, 2021, 15:56:36 pm
No one does a deal where the other party is able to walk off with 6.75 million for doing sod all, no one. There are a shed load of checks and balances put in by the lawyers, everyone knows that. Why would the owners of 5U Sport expose themselves like that. Now some are claiming it has happened twice in 2 years or so at Sixfields by pure incompetence alone. Sorry I might end up with egg on my face but Iím not having any of it.

Having tried to express the same opinion diplomatically, I feel this version sounds better  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 07, 2021, 16:00:59 pm
No one does a deal where the other party is able to walk off with 6.75 million for doing sod all, no one. There are a shed load of checks and balances put in by the lawyers, everyone knows that. Why would the owners of 5U Sport expose themselves like that. Now some are claiming it has happened twice in 2 years or so at Sixfields by pure incompetence alone. Sorry I might end up with egg on my face but I’m not having any of it.

Manny is... :o


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 07, 2021, 16:14:02 pm
So is someone suggesting our two owners have made £16m disappear from different avenues?
I might put that quid on the table myself as that place sounds like an absolute gold mine.  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 07, 2021, 16:21:02 pm
Having tried to express the same opinion diplomatically, I feel this version sounds better  ;D
Honestly, without p1ss1ng everyone off by being Billy Big B0ll0cks businesman again Iíll give you an example. We have just signed a contract to exclusively supply a large multinational with goods and services for the next 2 years. That effing contract went backwards and forwards between the lawyers like a table tennis ball. Not happy with that wording, youíre exposed there, you have no redress if X, Y or Z happens, weíre still not happy with clauses 2, 5 and 1099b Two and a half months of mostly bu11s*** and fine print, it drove me insane. I wouldnít mind but we get that crap every time. Meanwhile over at Sixfields the council hand over 10 million without a by your leave or thank you, to be drawn down when you want for what you want, no problem happy days. Then 5U Sport rock up and itís hand over 6.75 million and by the way if the deal falls through we keep the lot and you fcuk off back to China with you scorched fingers covered in Savlon. Fcuk off, where are NTFC finding these imbeciles? Call me a stubborn fool but I remain somewhat sceptical and incredulous about the whole lot.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 07, 2021, 16:30:39 pm
No one does a deal where the other party is able to walk off with 6.75 million for doing sod all, no one. There are a shed load of checks and balances put in by the lawyers, everyone knows that. Why would the owners of 5U Sport expose themselves like that. Now some are claiming it has happened twice in 2 years or so at Sixfields by pure incompetence alone. Sorry I might end up with egg on my face but Iím not having any of it.

Oh, I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm just saying that seems to be the extent of the "scandal" if it did!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 07, 2021, 16:43:45 pm
Oh, I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm just saying that seems to be the extent of the "scandal" if it did!
If you had I have to say I would question your judgement and ask you to consider your position? 😉


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 07, 2021, 16:48:04 pm
No one does a deal where the other party is able to walk off with 6.75 million for doing sod all, no one. There are a shed load of checks and balances put in by the lawyers, everyone knows that. Why would the owners of 5U Sport expose themselves like that. Now some are claiming it has happened twice in 2 years or so at Sixfields by pure incompetence alone. Sorry I might end up with egg on my face but Iím not having any of it.
Exactly. And the implication is that 5USPORT have paid out 6.75m, lost every penny and put it down to a bad day at the office is absurd. There is no way that KT is anywhere close to be 6.75m better off for a failed deal. With the costs of lawyers, especially when dealing internationally, I would be amazed if they made any profit from it at all. Especially when factoring in time spent on the phone etc


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 07, 2021, 17:01:25 pm
I canít really disagree with any of that apart from its all aimed at the Trust, surely the exact same questions should be asked of the club?
Iím all for balance but at the moment everything is against the Trust, quite rightly we should have transparency from them BUT the same goes for the club and Iím not seeing thatÖÖ

Mate, we are on a thread called "New Trust Statement on Club Finances".

I'm digging below the surface of what the Trust are saying into the detail to be better informed and maybe help some others to be as well.  Frankly I had to read the Trust statement 3 times to even get my head round what was being said and even now I'm not quite sure what they are accusing the owners of having done...if anything at all?  That in itself is a problem and even now I see people including yourself posting incorrect versions of what the trust actually said.

As I said before people including myself need to be taken on a journey.  If KT is another DC tell me why and prove it.  Don't come to me in two years time saying I told you so which is what some people seem to be setting themselves up to do.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 07, 2021, 17:04:20 pm
Oh and by the way I've had a reply an hour ago literally from the "NTFC Trust"....

Thank you for your email. We will respond asap after our next board meeting which is on 14 July.

Best wishes,

NTFC Trust 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 07, 2021, 17:18:55 pm
Having tried to express the same opinion diplomatically, I feel this version sounds better  ;D

I'm so glad I'm not the only one that is coming to these conclusions - I suspect no one contributing to this thread really knows the P&L details on the Chinese deal - of course it suits a certain agenda to paint KT & DB as money grabbing individuals but as now echoed by several the likelihood of the Chinese just giving up on £6 million just liker that is somewhat slim & in the very very unlikely scenario that it is the case KT & DB would still barely have covered their existing loans - frankly its all becoming a non story fanned by people with agendas  of unknown objectives.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: everbrite on July 07, 2021, 17:50:06 pm
Having tried to express the same opinion diplomatically, I feel this version sounds better  ;D

 ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on July 07, 2021, 17:52:04 pm
If 5USPORT had so much money they could walk away from £6.7 million without blinking then Iím gutted they couldnít stay.
In other news I saw the MK lost £63k a week in their last year of accounts.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: everbrite on July 07, 2021, 18:11:10 pm
If that situation arises would you seriously  wish to have anyone connected to the Trust board involved?

No but they did a reasonable job....eventually on the Cardoza situation - even I parted with money? On the other hand we have to have a backstop if things go sour. If the Trust love's the Club then they might be the right vehicle to help. Not all the Trust Board are insincere in their appreciation of NTFC... can they?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 07, 2021, 18:34:28 pm
I'm so glad I'm not the only one that is coming to these conclusions - I suspect no one contributing to this thread really knows the P&L details on the Chinese deal - of course it suits a certain agenda to paint KT & DB as money grabbing individuals but as now echoed by several the likelihood of the Chinese just giving up on £6 million just liker that is somewhat slim & in the very very unlikely scenario that it is the case KT & DB would still barely have covered their existing loans - frankly its all becoming a non story fanned by people with agendas  of unknown objectives.

Do you know anything about 5USPORT or where their money came from in the first instance?
I don't.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 07, 2021, 18:55:20 pm
Mate, we are on a thread called "New Trust Statement on Club Finances".

I'm digging below the surface of what the Trust are saying into the detail to be better informed and maybe help some others to be as well.  Frankly I had to read the Trust statement 3 times to even get my head round what was being said and even now I'm not quite sure what they are accusing the owners of having done...if anything at all?  That in itself is a problem and even now I see people including yourself posting incorrect versions of what the trust actually said.

As I said before people including myself need to be taken on a journey.  If KT is another DC tell me why and prove it.  Don't come to me in two years time saying I told you so which is what some people seem to be setting themselves up to do.
I'm not sure they are accusing the owners of anything? They have outlined for all those transactions they feel are relevant to the situation moving forwards so people like you can draw their own conclusions. Why are they mercilessly criticised for doing so? They havent commented on their own statement beyond that so far as I can tell. They have also withdrawn their support for the 'deal'.
Im not sure of the election process for Trust board members (even though I'm a member, but I dont blame the Trust for that I blame my own apathy, I could easily find out if I needed to) but i know they are there to represent their members in the same way my MP represents me in parliament. For those that have an issue with this then they can exercise options including leaving the Trust if they are existing members, standing for election to the board to affect policy change from within or voting members of the board off the board.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Travelaway on July 07, 2021, 19:59:13 pm
Do you know anything about 5USPORT or where their money came from in the first instance?
I don't.
Around the time of the proposed investment, the Chinese government changed some local controls on overseas sports investments, as 5USport were not a big player, its likely that they had to get the money back to the PRC. I think Singcob mentioned something about this previously.
The rich in China are using many ways to get money out of the country in various ways, thus the cap by the Commies.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 07, 2021, 20:03:49 pm
I'm not sure they are accusing the owners of anything? They have outlined for all those transactions they feel are relevant to the situation moving forwards so people like you can draw their own conclusions. Why are they mercilessly criticised for doing so? They havent commented on their own statement beyond that so far as I can tell. They have also withdrawn their support for the 'deal'.
Im not sure of the election process for Trust board members (even though I'm a member, but I dont blame the Trust for that I blame my own apathy, I could easily find out if I needed to) but i know they are there to represent their members in the same way my MP represents me in parliament. For those that have an issue with this then they can exercise options including leaving the Trust if they are existing members, standing for election to the board to affect policy change from within or voting members of the board off the board.
They outlined the process in the questions I put to them elsewhere on the forum CJ. There is no vehicle for voting people off the board as such as far as I can tell. To become a member of the board you need to be proposed and seconded I think and thatís it? Itís all very above board and respectable, but you canít get away from the fact that during my joining the Trust I had about 4 communications including delivery of my membership card. In the years that have followed I have not received a direct unsolicited communication despite providing my contact details etc. As a result I have never had the opportunity to endorse any candidates etc. At the moment the Trust share that distinction in my life with North Korea. Bit unkind but it does annoy me, especially when you read the new mission statement whilst considering this fact.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 07, 2021, 20:53:52 pm
They outlined the process in the questions I put to them elsewhere on the forum CJ. There is no vehicle for voting people off the board as such as far as I can tell. To become a member of the board you need to be proposed and seconded I think and thatís it? Itís all very above board and respectable, but you canít get away from the fact that during my joining the Trust I had about 4 communications including delivery of my membership card. I the years that have followed I have not received a direct communication despite providing my contact details etc. As a result I have never had the opportunity to endorse any candidates etc. At the moment the Trust share that distinction in my life with North Korea. Bit unkind but it does annoy me, especially when you read the new mission statement whilst considering this fact.
Probably not constitutionally the best but perhaps the question that should be asked is how many who put themselves forward for nomination or secondment fail to get a seat at the table?
Not many would be ny guess.
It also always seems to me that the Trust don't matter (hence my particular apathy), until the Trust matter. People then develop a habit of interrogating the processes involved when it's already too late. Extremely hypocritical in my opinion. Most of these folk critical of the Trust didn't give a flying fcuk about them 3 months ago, they werent even on their own particular horizon (apart from Tel that is lol).



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: everbrite on July 07, 2021, 23:16:10 pm
I'm not sure they are accusing the owners of anything? They have outlined for all those transactions they feel are relevant to the situation moving forwards so people like you can draw their own conclusions. Why are they mercilessly criticised for doing so? They havent commented on their own statement beyond that so far as I can tell. They have also withdrawn their support for the 'deal'.
Im not sure of the election process for Trust board members (even though I'm a member, but I dont blame the Trust for that I blame my own apathy, I could easily find out if I needed to) but i know they are there to represent their members in the same way my MP represents me in parliament. For those that have an issue with this then they can exercise options including leaving the Trust if they are existing members, standing for election to the board to affect policy change from within or voting members of the board off t 8)e board.

Completely agree with you CJ 8)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on July 08, 2021, 00:51:52 am
Probably not constitutionally the best but perhaps the question that should be asked is how many who put themselves forward for nomination or secondment fail to get a seat at the table?
Not many would be my guess.
It is probably well over 10 years since anyone stood for election and didn't get a seat. I've said it time after time. if you don't like the way the Trust is run, stand for election and do something about it. It's like moaning about Boris but then not voting at an election


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 04:18:39 am
It is probably well over 10 years since anyone stood for election and didn't get a seat. I've said it time after time. if you don't like the way the Trust is run, stand for election and do something about it. It's like moaning about Boris but then not voting at an election
What about the members who canít get involved for whatever reason. Therefore the message that conveys is that unless you are able to take a seat on the board then donít bother joining because it will be a pointless and futile exercise. All against the Trust mission of inclusivity with the membership etc etc. As I said it the Trust board believe that is acceptable itís truly an organisation that has completely lost its way IMO.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 08:29:52 am
What about the members who canít get involved for whatever reason. Therefore the message that conveys is that unless you are able to take a seat on the board then donít bother joining because it will be a pointless and futile exercise. All against the Trust mission of inclusivity with the membership etc etc. As I said it the Trust board believe that is acceptable itís truly an organisation that has completely lost its way IMO.
So ďfor whatever reasonĒ you canít get involvedĒ itís the Trusts fault? WTF.
Your beginning to sound anti Trust Melly 😂😂😂


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 08, 2021, 08:58:35 am
It is probably well over 10 years since anyone stood for election and didn't get a seat. I've said it time after time. if you don't like the way the Trust is run, stand for election and do something about it. It's like moaning about Boris but then not voting at an election
The issue I have with this sort of statement which has been said a few times is I have no interest in either joining the Trust or being on the board, and I fully accept that means I have no say over what the Trust does.
For a long time they have had no impact to my support of the club, and although I cant think how to word it, I mean that in a positive way. The work they do for away travel, the financial support they give to the academy and community work, the sponsoring of players, the sponsoring of the ladies team and so much more.

My issue is over the recent statements, the aggressive tones they have towards the club, and at times the council, going to the press (if true) etc which all sour the relationship with not only the Trust but also the wider fan base against the club and owner and serve no positive outcome. A Trust 100% need to hold the owners to account, and there is so much they could be challenging the owners on, especially around timelines, club before development etc, which they are, but that's being lost in the rest of the rubbish.

The analogy about not voting in an election isn't true. We have a government, we have no choice in that so yes in that case I agree if you don't vote you shouldn't get a say. But we don't have to have a trust. I am happy for a Trust to operate how they should and how they have for so many years, but jeapordising things as they are now is when people like me get pi$$ed off and comment on matters. This is for the Trust and its members to address, not the wider fan base, and I hope they do it soon. Assuming the members aren't happy that is


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 09:12:50 am
The issue I have with this sort of statement which has been said a few times is I have no interest in either joining the Trust or being on the board, and I fully accept that means I have no say over what the Trust does.
For a long time they have had no impact to my support of the club, and although I cant think how to word it, I mean that in a positive way. The work they do for away travel, the financial support they give to the academy and community work, the sponsoring of players, the sponsoring of the ladies team and so much more.

My issue is over the recent statements, the aggressive tones they have towards the club, and at times the council, going to the press (if true) etc which all sour the relationship with not only the Trust but also the wider fan base against the club and owner and serve no positive outcome. A Trust 100% need to hold the owners to account, and there is so much they could be challenging the owners on, especially around timelines, club before development etc, which they are, but that's being lost in the rest of the rubbish.

The analogy about not voting in an election isn't true. We have a government, we have no choice in that so yes in that case I agree if you don't vote you shouldn't get a say. But we don't have to have a trust. I am happy for a Trust to operate how they should and how they have for so many years, but jeapordising things as they are now is when people like me get pi$$ed off and comment on matters. This is for the Trust and its members to address, not the wider fan base, and I hope they do it soon. Assuming the members aren't happy that is
You mention all the good things the Trust does, so why do you think they are so anti the current ownership?
Have a little think before you answer.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 08, 2021, 09:42:14 am
You mention all the good things the Trust does, so why do you think they are so anti the current ownership?
Have a little think before you answer.
No idea. I've not seen any valid reason for it, no evidence or any formal petition to police, HMRC, council etc


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 09:43:55 am
No idea. I've not seen any valid reason for it, no evidence or any formal petition to police, HMRC, council etc
There must be something to get such a reaction?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 08, 2021, 09:47:59 am
You mention all the good things the Trust does, so why do you think they are so anti the current ownership?
Have a little think before you answer.

That's a bit like saying "Well, yes, Jimmy Saville was a paedophile but he did do a lot for charity..."

No one is all good or all bad but you can't turn a blind eye to the bad things someone does just because they also do good things, and equally you can't assume that everything someone does is good just because they've been seen to do good in the past.

The Trust is widely a force for good, but their behaviour in certain areas in recent years leaves a lot to be desired.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 08, 2021, 09:53:17 am
There must be something to get such a reaction?
I would like to agree, but we've seen nothing.
It appears that its just a group of people who dont like them and dont like the fact they are not on the inner circle. Like I have said before if the Trust have evidence of wrong doing they should have put it to the owners, and failing a positive reply gone to the authorities. Without anything concrete both sides are travelling further down the road of pettiness and drifting further apart.
For me the Trust either need to play their hand (if they have one) or drastically change the way they approach things


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 08, 2021, 10:00:35 am
Reading between all of the cryptic lines, effectively it is being implied by some quarters that the owners haven't spent anything (net) or very little, yet have millions of debt against the club. However, if this was even true that nothing illegal has probably happened and no one is smart enough to demonstrate this.
The net result is ridiculous accusations, veiled digs, sh*tty letters and plenty of handbags.

Whatever the Trust's intentions have been recently it has probably backfired with those that are interested, or were very pro the current owners.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 10:04:02 am
So ďfor whatever reasonĒ you canít get involvedĒ itís the Trusts fault? WTF.
Your beginning to sound anti Trust Melly 😂😂😂
Not anti Trust Manny, more anti process really. Itís not the Trust fault you canít get involved but they are supposed to serve the membership as a whole, it doesnít say anything anywhere about subject to sitting on the board to have a say. There are members like myself who live abroad, or those that are elderly or perhaps have health issues, the list is rather obviously fairly comprehensive. Donít they deserve to have their voice heard too? Is it reasonable to assume that due to circumstance some members may not be able to sit on the board to be heard and have a say, I think it is and before you say anything I know you agree.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 08, 2021, 10:15:42 am
Do you know anything about 5USPORT or where their money came from in the first instance?
I don't.

I know absolutely nothing about 5USPORT and thatís my point - those making veiled (or not so veiled) accusations almost certainly donít either - all I do know that has been now repeated many times itís highly unlikely they walked away with nothing leaving £6.7 million on the table.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 11:04:40 am
I know absolutely nothing about 5USPORT and that’s my point - those making veiled (or not so veiled) accusations almost certainly don’t either - all I do know that has been now repeated many times it’s highly unlikely they walked away with nothing leaving £6.7 million on the table.

Wasn't the 5USPORT issue explained in the 'leaked' letters on Twitter?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 11:28:43 am
Wasn't the 5USPORT issue explained in the 'leaked' letters on Twitter?
Not really mate, they basically said what the process was not what DB and KT netted, this was published by the Trust which claimed that both KT and DB both got £1.1m each and the rest ended up in BDJ.
I donít know if they are claiming any wrong doing but I donít see anything illegal and would be amazed if our owners would be that stupid, KT and DB arenít like Cardozy.
What piööing the trust off is they claim KT and DB havenít spent a penny in real terms and refuse to make transparent what the club will end up with after the land deal goes through.
This is also my stance, if you hadnít noticed 😎


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 11:48:55 am
Not really mate, they basically said what the process was not what DB and KT netted, this was published by the Trust which claimed that both KT and DB both got £1.1m each and the rest ended up in BDJ.
I don’t know if they are claiming any wrong doing but I don’t see anything illegal and would be amazed if our owners would be that stupid, KT and DB aren’t like Cardozy.
What piššing the trust off is they claim KT and DB haven’t spent a penny in real terms and refuse to make transparent what the club will end up with after the land deal goes through.
This is also my stance, if you hadn’t noticed

In real terms, they haven't spent a penny, it's all loaded to the club in a circa £7m loan which will be increased to circa £10m when the East Stand is completed.
The circa £10m will be repaid to them when the land deal is sorted and the club will then be free of any 'substantial', if not all, debt?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 12:05:59 pm
In real terms, they haven't spent a penny, it's all loaded to the club in a circa £7m loan which will be increased to circa £10m when the East Stand is completed.
The circa £10m will be repaid to them when the land deal is sorted and the club will then be free of any 'substantial', if not all, debt?
Yes agreed but itís very heavily stacked in our owners favour, itís clear now why they never walked away.
The owners need to come out and tell us what is in it for the club if the deal goes through.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 12:21:00 pm
Yes agreed but it’s very heavily stacked in our owners favour, it’s clear now why they never walked away.
The owners need to come out and tell us what is in it for the club if the deal goes through.


Why is it in the owners favour?
The club will have the new East Stand including the 'facilities' and subsequent income from them.
The club will have income from whatever the deal percentage of the profit is agreed with the council regarding the land, be that from the initial sales/build or the subsequent leasing.
The club owns that percentage, the current 'owners' manage it on behalf of the club.
To be honest, I don't see where the problem is, unless certain people believe that the owners will run off with the funds/percentage once it's all completed, which would be illegal wouldn't it, because it belongs to the club?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 08, 2021, 12:42:02 pm
Why is it in the owners favour?
The club will have the new East Stand including the 'facilities' and subsequent income from them.
The club will have income from whatever the deal percentage of the profit is agreed with the council regarding the land, be that from the initial sales/build or the subsequent leasing.
The club owns that percentage, the current 'owners' manage it on behalf of the club.
To be honest, I don't see where the problem is, unless certain people believe that the owners will run off with the funds/percentage once it's all completed, which would be illegal wouldn't it, because it belongs to the club?
That's the 64 million dollar question. The council dont want to get it wrong again. I suspect the one thing every single supporter of NTFC is in agreement over is that the club needs to significantly benefit from the deal.
In this instance, what's your particular definition of significant DC?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 12:45:01 pm
Can I also ask someone with an accounting background, is it correct that in the unlikely scenario they took the payment from 5U Sport and they jogged on, there would be a tax liability to pay. Even at a reduced rate this would still be a significant sum on 6.75 million. However, if they used it to pay down the loan they would have had zero liability. Seems like a rather expensive secret to me and Iím still not sure what purpose it serves?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 08, 2021, 12:57:18 pm
Can I also ask someone with an accounting background, is it correct that in the unlikely scenario they took the payment from 5U Sport and they jogged on, there would be a tax liability to pay. Even at a reduced rate this would still be a significant sum on 6.75 million. However, if they used it to pay down the loan they would have had zero liability. Seems like a rather expensive secret to me and Iím still not sure what purpose it serves?

If you had moved all the money off to the BVI would there be any tax liability to pay?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 13:10:23 pm
Why is it in the owners favour?
The club will have the new East Stand including the 'facilities' and subsequent income from them.
The club will have income from whatever the deal percentage of the profit is agreed with the council regarding the land, be that from the initial sales/build or the subsequent leasing.
The club owns that percentage, the current 'owners' manage it on behalf of the club.
To be honest, I don't see where the problem is, unless certain people believe that the owners will run off with the funds/percentage once it's all completed, which would be illegal wouldn't it, because it belongs to the club?

Cause they have control of the transaction and the club. They could as it stands walk away with all the profit leaving the club with a uninspiring east stand.
Agreed - paid for by the land deal not by the generosity of the current owners
Agreed - and that is what should be clearly defined before the deal on the land is finalised so it can not be manipulated. Look Iím happy that they profit out of the transaction but so should the club and I donít see why that cant be pre determined.
Letís face it KT and DB are here for the profit and not for the love of the club. The trust are only in existence for the love of the club. They quite rightly just want some clarity as do I on what the club is left with aside from the east stand post the development.
They can draw the profits sell the club and walk away leaving the club back weíre it started with a completed east stand.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 13:11:33 pm
Can I also ask someone with an accounting background, is it correct that in the unlikely scenario they took the payment from 5U Sport and they jogged on, there would be a tax liability to pay. Even at a reduced rate this would still be a significant sum on 6.75 million. However, if they used it to pay down the loan they would have had zero liability. Seems like a rather expensive secret to me and Iím still not sure what purpose it serves?
It all went offshore allegedly 🕵️‍♂️


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 13:17:07 pm
That's the 64 million dollar question. The council dont want to get it wrong again. I suspect the one thing every single supporter of NTFC is in agreement over is that the club needs to significantly benefit from the deal.
In this instance, what's your particular definition of significant DC?

I haven't used the word significant?
If you meant substantial, I would class substantial debt as being that which is not manageable, similar to the increasing debt we have at the moment that is not matched by the income.

Why does 'the club need to significantly benefit from the deal'? (your words)
The club needs to be in a position where it is financially sustainable and self sufficient in order to have an even balance at the end of each financial year and not be in debt to anyone.  
At the going rate, that appears to be an outlay of circa £1m+ above current income that has to be covered annually?
If that includes the purchasing of 'extras', like players and the infrastructure maintenance and improvement, all the better, but the cloth must be cut accordingly or we will soon be once again into the position we are at the moment?
  
Isn't that the rules of basic accounting whether you are dealing with your household budget or with a multi million pound organisation, that your outgoing should not exceed the incoming, or face the consequences?
That may mean that we stagnate in League Two, or do we once again go into debt in pursuit of the 'promised land' of League One or even the Championship at the expense of financial stability?
People need to understand that, when demanding that a certain level of player is purchased or their wages are paid, that it has to come from the break even budget at the end of the financial year and not from an increasing debt that isn't manageable.

Will we have enough income to sustain that promotion, I don't pretend to know, it all will depend on the council land deal/percentages and the income we achieve from the other saleable/rental facilities/resources we have. 
The 'bean counters' will be able to answer these questions when the time comes, but at this moment it will be nothing more that a 'wet finger'.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 13:20:05 pm
If you had moved all the money off to the BVI would there be any tax liability to pay?
Not my area of expertise but I would imagine it would need to be paid directly there to circumvent the liability in a given sovereignty. If thatís true it gives rise to the added complication that you need to tell 5U Sport to pay their 6.75 million directly into a BVi account to secure the deal. I donít know how you think people with 6.75 million on the hip operate GPC but I can assure you it is with considerable caution. Unless of course you happen to be NBC. The easiest way to view this is to think about what you would do if it were your money? The enormity of whatís being suggested here just makes it all a bit unlikely as far as I am concerned.

I should also point out that I am taxed on my global income in Oz, the ATO couldnít give a toss what off shore account I have squirrelled my loot away to. To the best of my knowledge every tax body works pretty much to the same principles. I keep saying it and no one seems to take it on board, this idea that you can legitimately dodge liability or any declaration of income by rinsing money through off shore accounts is b0ll0cks. I would guess I am one of the few people on here who is in this position and able to comment with a degree of experience and to repeat its b0ll0cks. Now if your suggesting itís not legitimate then that is a very different proposition, but I would take caution before embarking down that road if I were you.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 13:22:58 pm
It all went offshore allegedly ️‍♂️


Maybe, but I haven't seen or read of any evidence to suggest that that has happened, aside from your own unsubstantiated allegations?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 13:41:06 pm
Maybe, but I haven't seen or read of any evidence to suggest that that has happened, aside from your own unsubstantiated allegations?
I have to correct you there, I am repeating the Trusts allegations, none of these are my own, which I have clearly stated in all my posts.
Have you actually read the Trusts statement?
I have a question for you, Melly and the Hamster, Why would the Trust cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
Because the club are getting a good deal? Because they donít like Kelvin?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 13:43:57 pm
I have to correct you there, I am repeating the Trusts allegations, none of these are my own, which I have clearly stated in all my posts.
Have you actually read the Trusts statement?
I have a question for you, Melly and the Hamster, Why would the Trust cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
Because the club are getting a good deal? Because they donít like Kelvin?


No idea Manny, Im just putting my opinion forward on what I see. I might well be wrong.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 08, 2021, 13:46:36 pm
KT and DB buy NTFC and 'acquire' the surrounding land.
They build the east stand and generally improve the infrastructure including executive seating to attract business and some form of non match day revenue.
The club become established in League and remain there for 3-4 years instead of yo'yo ing and start creeping towards the top of the table.
KT and DB make money from the land development
They sell the club for a profit (or even £1) to someone who has the resources to push us towards the top of L1 and into the Championships.

KT & DB make a load of money, NTFC get improved infrastructure and play at a high level consistently.

There's a lot of hypotheticals in there but it seems that the bit people dont like is the highlighted bit. Or am I misrepresenting?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 08, 2021, 13:47:30 pm
I have to correct you there, I am repeating the Trusts allegations, none of these are my own, which I have clearly stated in all my posts.
Have you actually read the Trusts statement?
I have a question for you, Melly and the Hamster, Why would the Trust cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
Because the club are getting a good deal? Because they donít like Kelvin?


because they refuse a zoom call to discuss the points so can only go on their own assumptions which may or may not be wrong.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 08, 2021, 13:48:47 pm
The 5U thing goes back to the filing history.

They (5U) acquired the shares of NT Ventures in two transactions, in June and September 2017.

NT Ventures were the company that owned the shares in NTFC.

Fantastical Limited were the UK registered company that "owned" NT Ventures

No filings were made in the records of Fantastical Limited either for 2017 or 2018, it remained a "dormant company"

BDJ did not become the majority shareholder in NT Ventures until March 2018 so in theory it had nothing to do with NTFC, Ventures or Fantastical at the time the shares were sold.

This is all readily available information at Companies House.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 14:17:01 pm
The 5U thing goes back to the filing history.

They (5U) acquired the shares of NT Ventures in two transactions, in June and September 2017.

NT Ventures were the company that owned the shares in NTFC.

Fantastical Limited were the UK registered company that "owned" NT Ventures

No filings were made in the records of Fantastical Limited either for 2017 or 2018, it remained a "dormant company"

BDJ did not become the majority shareholder in NT Ventures until March 2018 so in theory it had nothing to do with NTFC, Ventures or Fantastical at the time the shares were sold.

This is all readily available information at Companies House.

Has it harmed the football club? 
If so when, where and how? Facts, not theoretical guesses.
Is/was it criminal or have legal implication?
If so, it should be reported to the relevant authority for investigation.  I do not consider the national media to be a 'relevant authority'.  (That is a statement not an allegation)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 14:31:00 pm
I have to correct you there, I am repeating the Trusts allegations, none of these are my own, which I have clearly stated in all my posts.
Have you actually read the Trusts statement?
I have a question for you, Melly and the Hamster, Why would the Trust cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
Because the club are getting a good deal? Because they donít like Kelvin?


I said evidence. I have read The Trust Boards allegations.  Again, I said evidence.
There has been no evidence that I have seen or read to substantiate anything that has been said or alleged.
Why do you repeat unsubstantiated allegations? Do you not have any thoughts of your own?

I have no idea why The Trust Board cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
That is a question that can only be answered by The Trust Board, who do not appear to have answered.

Everything that I write and comment is my opinion from information that I have gained from the various discussions and information that has been provided either on here, on The Trust website or from my own inquisitive mind.  Nothing else. 
If people, as it appears, are getting uncomfortable with my comments and questions, you might want to ask yourself why?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 08, 2021, 16:28:36 pm
I haven't used the word significant?
If you meant substantial, I would class substantial debt as being that which is not manageable, similar to the increasing debt we have at the moment that is not matched by the income.

Why does 'the club need to significantly benefit from the deal'? (your words)
The club needs to be in a position where it is financially sustainable and self sufficient in order to have an even balance at the end of each financial year and not be in debt to anyone.  
At the going rate, that appears to be an outlay of circa £1m+ above current income that has to be covered annually?
If that includes the purchasing of 'extras', like players and the infrastructure maintenance and improvement, all the better, but the cloth must be cut accordingly or we will soon be once again into the position we are at the moment?
  
Isn't that the rules of basic accounting whether you are dealing with your household budget or with a multi million pound organisation, that your outgoing should not exceed the incoming, or face the consequences?
That may mean that we stagnate in League Two, or do we once again go into debt in pursuit of the 'promised land' of League One or even the Championship at the expense of financial stability?
People need to understand that, when demanding that a certain level of player is purchased or their wages are paid, that it has to come from the break even budget at the end of the financial year and not from an increasing debt that isn't manageable.

Will we have enough income to sustain that promotion, I don't pretend to know, it all will depend on the council land deal/percentages and the income we achieve from the other saleable/rental facilities/resources we have. 
The 'bean counters' will be able to answer these questions when the time comes, but at this moment it will be nothing more that a 'wet finger'.
It was me that used the word significant DC apols if it read otherwise.
I assumed that everyone would want the club to significantly benefit for the reasons you state. If it doesnt where will we be 8n another 6 years?
I dont think 200 extra seats some boxes and some facilities (why isn't there more transparency in that last phrase, I wonder?) will significantly increase the clubs turnover in order for us to tread water as a club let alone grow, though. I also think that the notion that our owners are going to leave us with a nice little nest egg if/when they go is hugely doubtful. It's their business (but our club) why would they do anything more altruistic than simply clear club debts unless there is a legally binding agreement do so.
.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 17:11:49 pm
It was me that used the word significant DC apols if it read otherwise.
I assumed that everyone would want the club to significantly benefit for the reasons you state. If it doesnt where will we be 8n another 6 years?
I dont think 200 extra seats some boxes and some facilities (why isn't there more transparency in that last phrase, I wonder?) will significantly increase the clubs turnover in order for us to tread water as a club let alone grow, though. I also think that the notion that our owners are going to leave us with a nice little nest egg if/when they go is hugely doubtful. It's their business (but our club) why would they do anything more altruistic than simply clear club debts unless there is a legally binding agreement do so.


Your last sentence sums it up, they have no obligation to provide anything more than that.
The council land deal is crucial to the whole business, for which the council have the lead.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 08, 2021, 17:18:13 pm
It was me that used the word significant DC apols if it read otherwise.
I assumed that everyone would want the club to significantly benefit for the reasons you state. If it doesnt where will we be 8n another 6 years?
I dont think 200 extra seats some boxes and some facilities (why isn't there more transparency in that last phrase, I wonder?) will significantly increase the clubs turnover in order for us to tread water as a club let alone grow, though. I also think that the notion that our owners are going to leave us with a nice little nest egg if/when they go is hugely doubtful. It's their business (but our club) why would they do anything more altruistic than simply clear club debts unless there is a legally binding agreement do so.
.

Maybe there is still a hangover from Cardoza promising a hotel, plush facilities and probably a theme park at some point.
I don't remember some land grab really being a hot topic for huge benefits to the club. i.e. does/did anyone think that £100m (not my figure) was going to be handed over and put on our balance sheet. I'd hope not!
Any hope of major development was shattered when Dozy released those cartoons with blind spots and portakabins on stilts.
If we have a finished stand and are left debt free, it's about the best we can hope for. The fact that they don't want to increase the cost by levelling it and building something a lot better pretty much shows their hand.
Then once KT and co have inevitably sailed into the sunset supporters can start moaning about the next chairman and where to spend his money.

Thinking back how many popular chairmen have we had? I'm sure any chairman is more popular when it's going well on the pitch, i.e. not that often for us!
I remember Con Wilson, Underwood, Tobacco man Banks, Stonhill, Ellis, Dozy.

Maybe a better (financially) run business model wouldn't generate these levels of debt, especially if the formula on the pitch and behind the scenes is right. Producing more sales like Charlie Goode, a cup runs and youth development. If you are selling out every week (including whatever corporate) I am sure any astute businessman would invest and expand accordingly. That aside, it is extremely difficult to run any football club on an even keel. The top Prem clubs are tens/hundreds of millions in debt.
Get success on the pitch and fans don't really worry about the bottom line.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 17:35:36 pm
Maybe there is still a hangover from Cardoza promising a hotel, plush facilities and probably a theme park at some point.
I don't remember some land grab really being a hot topic for huge benefits to the club. i.e. does/did anyone think that £100m (not my figure) was going to be handed over and put on our balance sheet. I'd hope not!
Any hope of major development was shattered when Dozy released those cartoons with blind spots and portakabins on stilts.
If we have a finished stand and are left debt free, it's about the best we can hope for. The fact that they don't want to increase the cost by levelling it and building something a lot better pretty much shows their hand.
Then once KT and co have inevitably sailed into the sunset supporters can start moaning about the next chairman and where to spend his money.

Thinking back how many popular chairmen have we had? I'm sure any chairman is more popular when it's going well on the pitch, i.e. not that often for us!
I remember Con Wilson, Underwood, Tobacco man Banks, Stonhill, Ellis, Dozy.

Maybe a better (financially) run business model wouldn't generate these levels of debt, especially if the formula on the pitch and behind the scenes is right. Producing more sales like Charlie Goode, a cup runs and youth development. If you are selling out every week (including whatever corporate) I am sure any astute businessman would invest and expand accordingly. That aside, it is extremely difficult to run any football club on an even keel. The top Prem clubs are tens/hundreds of millions in debt.
Get success on the pitch and fans don't really worry about the bottom line.

The point of all this is itís a one off opportunity with the land, the question is as a supporter do you want two individuals to sail into the sunset with all the profit leaving the club with a shŪty little stand and no debt?
REMEMBER THERE WAS VERY LITTLE DEBT WHEN THEY TOOK OVER.
OR do you want a transparent process where everyone gets their fair share!
OUR OWNERS REFUSE TO ANSWER QUESTION ABOUT THE CLUBS SHARE OF THE DEAL.
WHATS IN IT FOR NTFC


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 17:39:45 pm
I said evidence. I have read The Trust Boards allegations.  Again, I said evidence.
There has been no evidence that I have seen or read to substantiate anything that has been said or alleged.
Why do you repeat unsubstantiated allegations? Do you not have any thoughts of your own?

I have no idea why The Trust Board cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
That is a question that can only be answered by The Trust Board, who do not appear to have answered.

Everything that I write and comment is my opinion from information that I have gained from the various discussions and information that has been provided either on here, on The Trust website or from my own inquisitive mind.  Nothing else. 
If people, as it appears, are getting uncomfortable with my comments and questions, you might want to ask yourself why?
FFS do you think they made it all up?
They have evidenced the transactions.
Please outline any unsubstantiated allegations? KT would issue legal action against the individuals if they were not true.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 08, 2021, 17:53:55 pm
FFS do you think they made it all up?
They have evidenced the transactions.
Please outline any unsubstantiated allegations? KT would issue legal action against the individuals if they were not true.

Are you shouting and stamping your feet?  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 08, 2021, 17:55:59 pm
FFS do you think they made it all up?
They have evidenced the transactions.
Please outline any unsubstantiated allegations? KT would issue legal action against the individuals if they were not true.

I think it's more accurate to say they have evidenced some transactions.

From the Trust statement:

Quote
March 2018

KT announced that 5USports had departed Ventures and NTFC as directors and that the shares had been ďreacquiredĒ, owing to the failure of 5USports to come up with working capital for the football club. Unannounced, ultimate control and ownership of NTFC was transferred to Belle de Jour Ltd. 

It is not known whether a payment was made, and if so the amount paid, for reacquiring the shares.

 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 08, 2021, 18:02:11 pm
Just a salient point

Ten years ago the council agreed that £10 million was needed to redevelop sixfields to a decent standard.

A decade later and we are now looking at a £3 million investment to redevelop the ground (apologies if incorrect)

Thatís £7 millions worth of redevelopment that was needed that we are now not getting and it appears everyone is content with thisÖ..

Could someone explain if my simplistic viewpoint is right?

If the council deemed it needed £10 million spent bringing it up to scratch years ago how can it not need at least that much now?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 18:17:22 pm
Are you shouting and stamping your feet?  ;D
ShÓt Iím doing it again 🤫


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 08, 2021, 18:24:24 pm
The point of all this is it’s a one off opportunity with the land, the question is as a supporter do you want two individuals to sail into the sunset with all the profit leaving the club with a shíty little stand and no debt?
REMEMBER THERE WAS VERY LITTLE DEBT WHEN THEY TOOK OVER.
OR do you want a transparent process where everyone gets their fair share!
OUR OWNERS REFUSE TO ANSWER QUESTION ABOUT THE CLUBS SHARE OF THE DEAL.
WHATS IN IT FOR NTFC

Have you thought for a minute that maybe until the council have made some sort of decision/deal/agreement regarding the land that may be they don't know?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 08, 2021, 18:25:07 pm
Considering the Council "deal" would see the East Stand redevelopment being paid for essentially by the council (KT and DB will put that money forward initially to build but KT and DB want the first £3m back out of any land deal before the Council see a penny), and with the plans and CGI's that have been produced not really revealing a lot, certainly not the scale of the conferencing areas, layout or anything, is it any wonder that the questions are being asked?

The boxes would bring in 100k a year max....so whatever else is proposed would need to bring in around £700k a year in profit just to get the club running on a break even basis.

I get that people want to gaze across at a finished stand but come on, this is the future of our Football Club we are talking about here.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 18:47:35 pm
Considering the Council "deal" would see the East Stand redevelopment being paid for essentially by the council (KT and DB will put that money forward initially to build but KT and DB want the first £3m back out of any land deal before the Council see a penny), and with the plans and CGI's that have been produced not really revealing a lot, certainly not the scale of the conferencing areas, layout or anything, is it any wonder that the questions are being asked?

The boxes would bring in 100k a year max....so whatever else is proposed would need to bring in around £700k a year in profit just to get the club running on a break even basis.

I get that people want to gaze across at a finished stand but come on, this is the future of our Football Club we are talking about here.
Youíve got to give it to KT mate he shows them something shiny and they all follow and think heís the messiah.
Funny if it wasnít the future of our club.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 18:52:17 pm
Have you thought for a minute that maybe until the council have made some sort of decision/deal/agreement regarding the land that may be they don't know?
I would hope the owners have some sort of plan, wouldnít you, otherwise how did they have CGIs ďoven readyĒ for over 2 years.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 08, 2021, 19:16:52 pm
Just a salient point

Ten years ago the council agreed that £10 million was needed to redevelop sixfields to a decent standard.

A decade later and we are now looking at a £3 million investment to redevelop the ground (apologies if incorrect)

Thatís £7 millions worth of redevelopment that was needed that we are now not getting and it appears everyone is content with thisÖ..

Could someone explain if my simplistic viewpoint is right?

If the council deemed it needed £10 million spent bringing it up to scratch years ago how can it not need at least that much now?

Times have changed. That was when we were Ďgiftedí £10m and not really sure what that figure was going to produce, especially with the crazy figures being touted by Dozey for a pretty basic fit out. Maybe KT doesnít need some of it to build his house in Florida?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 08, 2021, 21:13:00 pm
I would hope the owners have some sort of plan, wouldn’t you, otherwise how did they have CGIs “oven ready” for over 2 years.

That's not what I mean. I am wondering if they are waiting to see what terms and conditions the council might put on any deal.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 08, 2021, 22:38:30 pm
That's not what I mean. I am wondering if they are waiting to see what terms and conditions the council might put on any deal.
We can live in hope that the council look after us, unfortunately their track record isnít great.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 09, 2021, 08:29:41 am
I have to correct you there, I am repeating the Trusts allegations, none of these are my own, which I have clearly stated in all my posts.
Have you actually read the Trusts statement?
I have a question for you, Melly and the Hamster, Why would the Trust cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
Because the club are getting a good deal? Because they donít like Kelvin?



Don't drag me into it. I havenít said a thing about the money. Unlike you, who doesnít know when to bow out. The only comment I have made, is to say that people need to substantiate what they say. That INCLUDES reputational damage through inference or alluding to wrong doing.

OooohÖ There he goes again, getting all ďanti TrustĒ 😂😂😂😂



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 09, 2021, 08:42:47 am
FFS do you think they made it all up?
They have evidenced the transactions.
Please outline any unsubstantiated allegations? KT would issue legal action against the individuals if they were not true.
Have they evidenced the actual amount actually going into any of the accounts?
Have they evidenced the actual amount actually leaving any of the accounts?
Have they evidenced the actual expenses for legal fees, transaction fees, tax etc?

My guess is no, no, no. Therefore any opinion on what has happened is exactly that. As much as you or any one else wants to shout about it.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 09, 2021, 09:03:53 am
Have they evidenced the actual amount actually going into any of the accounts?
Have they evidenced the actual amount actually leaving any of the accounts?
Have they evidenced the actual expenses for legal fees, transaction fees, tax etc?

My guess is no, no, no. Therefore any opinion on what has happened is exactly that. As much as you or any one else wants to shout about it.
Why donít you ask the Trust.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 09, 2021, 09:09:47 am
I've lost track of the amount of time I've said they need to prove they have evidence. Either to fans or authorities.
Also that they should have accepted the zoom calls to put it to them in person rather than both slides flinging statements at each other.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 09, 2021, 09:46:49 am
Don't drag me into it. I havenít said a thing about the money. Unlike you, who doesnít know when to bow out. The only comment I have made, is to say that people need to substantiate what they say. That INCLUDES reputational damage through inference or alluding to wrong doing.

OooohÖ There he goes again, getting all ďanti TrustĒ 😂😂😂😂


Just to clear this up, at no point have I ever said or inferred that there has been any wrong doing or anything illegal.
The point I am making is I want the club to get the best deal, that includes KT and DB getting their fair share as I have also posted many times.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 09, 2021, 10:00:51 am
Just to clear this up, at no point have I ever said or inferred that there has been any wrong doing or anything illegal.
The point I am making is I want the club to get the best deal, that includes KT and DB getting their fair share as I have also posted many times.


The Ďfair shareí is the subjective part that people seem to take issue with. Iím sure some think the club have a divine right to coin it in from the land.
Whether Iím ground down (definitely not a sympathiser) if they finish the stand and clear the debt, ideally building a better footballing structure, they can make what they want for all I care. I donít believe for one second that the council are fighting some super club cause. They are probably still smarting from the Dozey affair.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 09, 2021, 10:58:13 am
I've lost track of the amount of time I've said they need to prove they have evidence. Either to fans or authorities.
Also that they should have accepted the zoom calls to put it to them in person rather than both slides flinging statements at each other.
I donít disagree with any of that TBH, maybe KT will be the bigger man and re offer the zoom call?
The pressure on the trust to accept would be massive and we could clear this up once and for all, I think you could probably sell tickets for it.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 09, 2021, 14:42:34 pm
Just to clear this up, at no point have I ever said or inferred that there has been any wrong doing or anything illegal.
The point I am making is I want the club to get the best deal, that includes KT and DB getting their fair share as I have also posted many times.


Did I say you had?

It matters not what I think. I am merely an impartial observer of the mess that I believe, and stated how it could have been avoided. But what do I know. I've never had the privileged of knowing quite what the "oil" is. Or what "just wait and see" quite means.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 09, 2021, 14:45:49 pm

I've never had the privileged of knowing quite what the "oil" is.
 

You donít need oil when you have methane on tap  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 09, 2021, 15:52:49 pm
Did I say you had?

It matters not what I think. I am merely an impartial observer of the mess that I believe, and stated how it could have been avoided. But what do I know. I've never had the privileged of knowing quite what the "oil" is. Or what "just wait and see" quite means.
Impartial, youíve always been like a moth to a flame with anything to do with the Trust, they must have really pÓssed you off?
Care to tell everyone, it will be like therapy for you.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 09, 2021, 21:13:52 pm
Did I say you had?

It matters not what I think. I am merely an impartial observer of the mess that I believe, and stated how it could have been avoided. But what do I know. I've never had the privileged of knowing quite what the "oil" is. Or what "just wait and see" quite means.

If there was a gauge of bias in regard to Le Trust and 1 was Shandy and 10 was Mescale, you would be Absinthe.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 10, 2021, 00:00:04 am
If there was a gauge of bias in regard to Le Trust and 1 was Shandy and 10 was Mescale, you would be Absinthe.
Soggy!!! Thank goodness where have you been, how Iíve missed your reveries. They say if you sit a chimpanzee at a keyboard long enough it will eventually type something of worth. So if a chimp can do it thereís an outside chance you can. Personally Iím not living in hope but dont let that demotivate you, keep your head up and keep going.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 10, 2021, 07:24:55 am
Soggy!!! Thank goodness where have you been, how I’ve missed your reveries. They say if you sit a chimpanzee at a keyboard long enough it will eventually type something of worth. So if a chimp can do it there’s an outside chance you can. Personally I’m not living in hope but dont let that demotivate you, keep your head up and keep going.

Ouch!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 10, 2021, 07:38:55 am
Impartial, youíve always been like a moth to a flame with anything to do with the Trust, they must have really pÓssed you off?
Care to tell everyone, it will be like therapy for you.

Itís fair to say that I have consistently stayed on track in terms of my opinion of their handling of a couple of things. I really wish they had listened. Then they certainly wouldnít be in the mess they are now. Or at least they could have confidently proclaimed the universal backing of their members. NowÖ If my persistence is uncomfortable to them, or you, or indeed anyone elseÖ I couldnít care less. I just hope that by relentlessly pursuing certain goals, they have not presided over the death of something that could have been so instrumental in looking after the support and the future of NTFC.

I am absolutely impartial. In no way do I condone the behaviour of any of the parties in this. It's just you and a few others only pick up on what I say about the Trust. I am the same as most people. I am waiting for you and a few others to show me the ďoil and truthĒ. Just as much as you want to see that 4 million. Or are we now going to face facts, and say that you and a few others got a bit carried away with it didnít you 😀😀



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 10, 2021, 09:19:10 am
Itís fair to say that I have consistently stayed on track in terms of my opinion of their handling of a couple of things. I really wish they had listened. Then they certainly wouldnít be in the mess they are now. Or at least they could have confidently proclaimed the universal backing of their members. NowÖ If my persistence is uncomfortable to them, or you, or indeed anyone elseÖ I couldnít care less. I just hope that by relentlessly pursuing certain goals, they have not presided over the death of something that could have been so instrumental in looking after the support and the future of NTFC.

I am absolutely impartial. In no way do I condone the behaviour of any of the parties in this. It's just you and a few others only pick up on what I say about the Trust. I am the same as most people. I am waiting for you and a few others to show me the ďoil and truthĒ. Just as much as you want to see that 4 million. Or are we now going to face facts, and say that you and a few others got a bit carried away with it didnít you 😀😀


😂😂😂😂😂
Course you are mate.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 10, 2021, 13:41:02 pm
😂😂😂😂😂
Course you are mate.

Oh no he isn't  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest1269 on July 10, 2021, 16:46:17 pm
Surely everyone who wants a say has had one (some far more than others more to the point of obsession) - absolutely nothing new.

Here is my summary -

1) The Trust are bad - or maybe not
2) KT & DB are bad - or maybe not



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Another Pedj on July 10, 2021, 19:48:17 pm
I know 1 are not sure about 2


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 10, 2021, 20:43:52 pm
Surely everyone who wants a say has had one (some far more than others more to the point of obsession) - absolutely nothing new.

Here is my summary -

1) The Trust are bad - or maybe not
2) KT & DB are bad - or maybe not


Can I just offer a bit of advice to everyone. If you feel you are obsessed by this subject can I recommend you make a life size model of Andy Roberts/Kelvin Thomas out of the kids playdoh and stick pins in it whilst shouting b@stard. Itís very cathartic.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 10, 2021, 20:56:53 pm
Can I just offer a bit of advice to everyone. If you feel you are obsessed by this subject can I recommend you make a life size model of Andy Roberts/Kelvin Thomas out of the kids playdoh and stick pins in it whilst shouting b@stard. Itís very cathartic.

So, Rolf Harris is alive and well and living in Victoria.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 10, 2021, 20:58:44 pm
So, Rolf Harris is alive and well and living in Victoria.
Iíve said something wrong again havenít I?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 11, 2021, 19:24:21 pm
😂😂😂😂😂
Course you are mate.


And gorgeous as well 😀😀😀😛😛


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 12, 2021, 11:27:46 am
And gorgeous as well 😀😀😀😛😛
Your not my type Tel.😀


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 15, 2021, 11:56:35 am
Have they evidenced the actual amount actually going into any of the accounts?
Have they evidenced the actual amount actually leaving any of the accounts?
Have they evidenced the actual expenses for legal fees, transaction fees, tax etc?

My guess is no, no, no. Therefore any opinion on what has happened is exactly that. As much as you or any one else wants to shout about it.

Why don't you ask KT to provide evidence that they are actually going to build the East stand. Shame you weren't at NBC 6 years ago asking for the same level of scrutiny to KT / DB.

The Trust have given pretty detailed info on dates and amounts, KT / NTFC staff have not issued a statement saying it is untrue.

The fact that KT has also not made a statement re the reacquiring of the shares suggests that they did not pay anything back.

I really don't understand why the Trust are questioned constantly yet no questions or concerns of KT when fans are told things like  - those plans just released have been with KT for at least 2 years but have not been release until now - so why not and why now?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 15, 2021, 12:07:04 pm
Why don't you ask KT to provide evidence that they are actually going to build the East stand. Shame you weren't at NBC 6 years ago asking for the same level of scrutiny to KT / DB.

The Trust have given pretty detailed info on dates and amounts, KT / NTFC staff have not issued a statement saying it is untrue.

The fact that KT has also not made a statement re the reacquiring of the shares suggests that they did not pay anything back.

I really don't understand why the Trust are questioned constantly yet no questions or concerns of KT when fans are told things like  - those plans just released have been with KT for at least 2 years but have not been release until now - so why not and why now?

I have contacted him on several occasions asking him for information, and although I do not necessarily agree with what he has to say I have had dialogue with him and got answers.

The Trust have laid out some facts, some assumptions, and some accusations. Without dialogue, which was offered, the assumptions can never be proven or disproved. This isnt the playground, not denying you did the fart doesnt mean you farted.

Again suggests. Not proof.

KT is often questioned by many including me who have been critical of the Trust and the way they have conducted themselves. The real irony is with all the petty press releases, statements and vailed accusations, the Trust and its supporters are actually distracting from what KT is / isnt doing.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 15, 2021, 22:02:30 pm
what information did you ask for Woody?

The cost of the East stand?
What are the East stand internal specs?
Why do we keep getting relegated?
How much did he pay to re-acquire the Chinese shares?
Why did it take you two years to show us fans these basic CGI's of the East stand?
Why did he not inform fans that the cub was under Chinese ownership?
Why has he not had the broken glass fixed?
Why, when he told NBC they had £4m to build East stand (and thus got the deal with NBC) does he, 6 years later, insist that the East stand will only get built once he has planning permission of 22 acres of land attached to the club?
What happens to the club is anything happened to DB?

Because many people have asked these questions without much of a reply.

BTW the Trust have made no assumptions or accusations in their latest statement, they are facts. (That KT and his PR machine have not denied or countered)

Our focus should be on our owners not the Trust for asking our owners, after 6 long years, for some answers as to what they plan to do with their plaything, especially if they were to get what they really want - no not promotion, not a new stand, not 24/7 income but a LAND DEAL




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Coolcat on July 15, 2021, 22:11:47 pm
Can I just offer a bit of advice to everyone. If you feel you are obsessed by this subject can I recommend you make a life size model of Andy Roberts/Kelvin Thomas out of the kids playdoh and stick pins in it whilst shouting b@stard. Itís very cathartic.
It's all very well offering cathartic advice, but where in Northampton can I get my hands on playdoh?
Will pulling my Stretch-O-Armstrong's arms have the same calming effect?  8)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 15, 2021, 22:28:58 pm
It's all very well offering cathartic advice, but where in Northampton can I get my hands on playdoh?
Will pulling my Stretch-O-Armstrong's arms have the same calming effect?  8)
Not sure Cat, like me you could also try a hypnotist to help you. Just make sure you put your Y-fronts on inside out, thus ensuring they will probably be the correct way round when you regain consciousness.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 15, 2021, 22:37:37 pm
Not sure Cat, like me you could also try a hypnotist to help you. Just make sure you put your Y-fronts on inside out, thus ensuring they will probably be the correct way round when you regain consciousness.
Emmm do you have his number handy?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 15, 2021, 22:57:13 pm
Emmm do you have his number handy?
Please send all correspondence care of The Governor, HM Prison Barwon, 1140 Bacchus Marsh Rd, Anakie, VIC 3212


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 16, 2021, 08:04:07 am


BTW the Trust have made no assumptions or accusations in their latest statement, they are facts. (That KT and his PR machine have not denied or countered)

Our focus should be on our owners not the Trust for asking our owners, after 6 long years, for some answers as to what they plan to do with their plaything, especially if they were to get what they really want - no not promotion, not a new stand, not 24/7 income but a LAND DEAL




The great thing for you, is that you can happily bask in the knowledge that those who are doing the accusing can do so, totally safe in the knowledge that their house is in order. I meanÖ It would be ridiculous wouldnít it, if anyone pointing the finger wasnít so hot in terms of their financial management. That would be crazy wouldnít it?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 16, 2021, 08:53:04 am

BTW the Trust have made no assumptions or accusations in their latest statement, they are facts. (That KT and his PR machine have not denied or countered)

Our focus should be on our owners not the Trust for asking our owners, after 6 long years, for some answers as to what they plan to do with their plaything, especially if they were to get what they really want - no not promotion, not a new stand, not 24/7 income but a LAND DEAL

As we understand it...
So it is entirely possible...
suggesting that they expect repayment...
It is our understanding...
We do not have greater detail about the deal in progress but...
But lines can be blurred between the interests of the football club and those of its owners, to whom the club is heavily indebted, unless there is complete clarity of intent.

There are some very good and valid questions in the statement, if only the Trust had an opportunity to put them to the owners in person ???
I also think there needs to be an honest discussion between the owners and Trust about transparency. I don't believe the club are open enough, I think the Trust ask for too much. Without an open discussion with compromise on both sides then that will remain the case.

Its good to talk


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 16, 2021, 09:42:24 am
The great thing for you, is that you can happily bask in the knowledge that those who are doing the accusing can do so, totally safe in the knowledge that their house is in order. I meanÖ It would be ridiculous wouldnít it, if anyone pointing the finger wasnít so hot in terms of their financial management. That would be crazy wouldnít it?



don't think it is the same thing, unless the Trust have their business and bank accounts registered off-shore, sold shares in UK companies but didn't tell the authorities and then load £m's of debt onto the Trust.

Do you think the land deal suggested by the club is acceptable?



 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 16, 2021, 09:56:19 am
As we understand it...
So it is entirely possible...
suggesting that they expect repayment...
It is our understanding...
We do not have greater detail about the deal in progress but...
But lines can be blurred between the interests of the football club and those of its owners, to whom the club is heavily indebted, unless there is complete clarity of intent.

There are some very good and valid questions in the statement, if only the Trust had an opportunity to put them to the owners in person ???
I also think there needs to be an honest discussion between the owners and Trust about transparency. I don't believe the club are open enough, I think the Trust ask for too much. Without an open discussion with compromise on both sides then that will remain the case.

Its good to talk

May i suggest you read the statement again, as the words you use above are not part of accusations, they are generally comments / thoughts / analysis of the situation.

"as we understand it" talks about the accounts. They don't have access to any accounts other than those published with Companies House, which have minimal information on them. The club never published the details of the Charlie Goode deal but around £1m was mooted.

Do you think that the Trust should not comment about the financial situation at the football club?

Do you think that the Trust should not ask questions about ownership, multi-million pound deals & Chinese monies?

More importantly....

Do you think that the Trust should not put pressure on owners that have overseen another relegation, have loaded the club with £6m of debt with zero increase in assets?

Do you think that the Trust should not ask the owners, that 6 years after promising to build the East stand using their £4m, exactly what the, now only £3m (6 years later) East stand will actually consist of and when will we see actual plans?

Do you think that the Trust should not question the integrity and motives of our owners after a history of broken promises and operating through shrouded secrecy of off-shore holdings and bank accounts?




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 16, 2021, 10:01:42 am
May i suggest you read the statement again, as the words you use above are not part of accusations, they are generally comments / thoughts / analysis of the situation.

"as we understand it" talks about the accounts. They don't have access to any accounts other than those published with Companies House, which have minimal information on them. The club never published the details of the Charlie Goode deal but around £1m was mooted.

Do you think that the Trust should not comment about the financial situation at the football club?
Yes, based on fact, not assumption. They had opportunity to ask in person and declined.
Do you think that the Trust should not ask questions about ownership, multi-million pound deals & Chinese monies?
Yes, based on fact, not assumption. They had opportunity to ask in person and declined.
More importantly....

Do you think that the Trust should not put pressure on owners that have overseen another relegation, have loaded the club with £6m of debt with zero increase in assets?
Yes, and as per a previous comment the 'noise' created by the poor statements impact their ability to ask serious questions.
Do you think that the Trust should not ask the owners, that 6 years after promising to build the East stand using their £4m, exactly what the £3m East stand will actually consist of and when will we see actual plans?
To a certain extent yes. This is where the balance needs to be agreed. Dont know why we need actual plans, but do need more than has been put up by the club
Do you think that the Trust should not question the integrity and motives of our owners after a history of broken promises and operating through shrouded secrecy of off-shore holdings and bank accounts?
Yes, based on facts, had the opportunity to ask... again comment on level of transparency. Need more from the club but I think they Trust expect too much
They're assumptions. Not accusations.

Its good to talk


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 16, 2021, 11:28:09 am
Thanks for your reply Woody

What bit is not fact?

The £6m debt is a FACT

The money received from the Chinese and the shareholding / movements is a FACT

They have asked these questions in person but no received straight answers

So after 6 years and continued poor, disrespectful treatment of the supporters Trust, they finally start to publicly questioned the owners.

Needing actual plans to see what is actually planned, how much it will cost, especially as tax payers are paying for it and most importantly - it might show they are actually serious on getting it built !!!

This is history repeating itself, Cardoza spent years lobbying the council to develop but never submitted a planning application, KT has done exactly the same.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on July 16, 2021, 13:21:13 pm

Needing actual plans to see what is actually planned, how much it will cost, especially as tax payers are paying for it and most importantly - it might show they are actually serious on getting it built !!!

This is history repeating itself, Cardoza spent years lobbying the council to develop but never submitted a planning application, KT has done exactly the same.


Cardoza did submit a few planning applications. As they are still using the existing footprint but looking at adding extra boxes they do not need to submit further fresh planning applications. DCs scaled down version only had boxes in the centre.

http://planning.northamptonboroughcouncil.com/planning/search-applications?civica.query.FullTextSearch=Sixfields%20#VIEW?RefType=PBDC&KeyNo=28640

http://planning.northamptonboroughcouncil.com/planning/search-applications?civica.query.FullTextSearch=Sixfields%20stadium#VIEW?RefType=PBDC&KeyNo=29050

http://planning.northamptonboroughcouncil.com/planning/search-applications?civica.query.FullTextSearch=Sixfields%20stadium#VIEW?RefType=PBDC&KeyNo=25524


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 16, 2021, 13:56:03 pm

Cardoza did submit a few planning applications.


...including one for his house, which never got finished either.  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 16, 2021, 14:20:14 pm
sorry Zen yes he obviously did apply for permission eventually

the point i was making was that Cardoza took over in 2003 and the planning application was 10 years later !!!

Its now been another 6 years and no further planning applications or changes, just some basic released cgi's

Just the same lobbying of fans and the council that they need to support a development that just doesn't add up to a great deal for NTFC and the people of Northampton (especially as we don't have many details)




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 16, 2021, 18:43:31 pm

Do you think the land deal suggested by the club is acceptable?


I honestly donít think anything I could say or do would shift anybodyís perspective. As I have said before. I would watch them if they played on the Racecourse. I'd probably like to see the East stand sorted soon. But I can honestly say, itís not even registered much above a whimper in my head. If itís like that in ten years, Iíll be more grateful that I got another ten years above anything else. Wouldnít be worrying about Sixfields.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 16, 2021, 18:46:48 pm
I honestly donít think anything I could say or do would shift anybodyís perspective. As I have said before. I would watch them if they played on the Racecourse. I'd probably like to see the East stand sorted soon. But I can honestly say, itís not even registered much above a whimper in my head. If itís like that in ten years, Iíll be more grateful that I got another ten years above anything else. Wouldnít be worrying about Sixfields.


That reply has made me smile and chuckleÖ.

You should be a politician  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 16, 2021, 21:37:07 pm
That reply has made me smile and chuckleÖ.

You should be a politician  ;D

😀😀 Iíve never voted mate..

I'm genuinely excited about the new season. Hopefully we can bury all the embarrassing off pitch activity and concentrate on the football.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 17, 2021, 03:10:29 am
Thanks for your reply Woody

What bit is not fact?

The £6m debt is a FACT

The money received from the Chinese and the shareholding / movements is a FACT

They have asked these questions in person but no received straight answers

So after 6 years and continued poor, disrespectful treatment of the supporters Trust, they finally start to publicly questioned the owners.

Needing actual plans to see what is actually planned, how much it will cost, especially as tax payers are paying for it and most importantly - it might show they are actually serious on getting it built !!!

This is history repeating itself, Cardoza spent years lobbying the council to develop but never submitted a planning application, KT has done exactly the same.

Random, with respect which is it, supporting the club financially or not incurring debt. It seems to me thereís a contradiction between the two? Unless you are suggesting that the owners should have developed the ground from the get go and turned an immediate profit. Or perhaps they should have doubled the debt by developing the ground and spending money on the pitch. I understand the criticism to some extent but I am yet to see any convincing alternative that goes even half way towards a completely acceptable outcome. As I said when it comes to outlay the current owners have put in more than any other owners in our history according to the submitted accounts. If any money for the club purchase has gone offshore that would still need to be declared or my understanding is that its tax evasion. If thatís what people think then perhaps they should say it and if true, me and a few others will undoubtedly be the first to apologise. So whoís going to put their hand up and take ownership of that accusation?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 17, 2021, 06:23:24 am
Random, with respect which is it, supporting the club financially or not incurring debt. It seems to me thereís a contradiction between the two? Unless you are suggesting that the owners should have developed the ground from the get go and turned an immediate profit. Or perhaps they should have doubled the debt by developing the ground and spending money on the pitch. I understand the criticism to some extent but I am yet to see any convincing alternative that goes even half way towards a completely acceptable outcome. As I said when it comes to outlay the current owners have put in more than any other owners in our history according to the submitted accounts. If any money for the club purchase has gone offshore that would still need to be declared or my understanding is that its tax evasion. If thatís what people think then perhaps they should say it and if true, me and a few others will undoubtedly be the first to apologise. So whoís going to put their hand up and take ownership of that accusation?

Maybe if, as I've suggested previously, they had just finished the stand with the "ringfenced" money from the start and played ball with the council then it maybe wouldn't have got this far down the road, the council may have given them the deal they were after and all this debt wouldn't have been incurred and everyone may have lived happily ever after. All speculation of course, just like a lot of the waffle on here.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 17, 2021, 06:51:54 am
Maybe if, as I've suggested previously, they had just finished the stand with the "ringfenced" money from the start and played ball with the council then it maybe wouldn't have got this far down the road, the council may have given them the deal they were after and all this debt wouldn't have been incurred and everyone may have lived happily ever after. All speculation of course, just like a lot of the waffle on here.
Fair enough, but given we went into free fall after the departure of Chris Wilder then arguably there was justification for spending it on the squad and changing the manager once Rob Page didnít work out. On that note I did feel a little bit sorry for them. CW clearly encouraged them to come on board and then left to join Sheffield within a few months, which did cause quite a lot of upheaval. So it was probably a factor in why the initial budget got blown elsewhere. Although to be fair that kind of thing shouldnít be entirely unexpected at our level.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on July 17, 2021, 07:27:52 am
Maybe if, as I've suggested previously, they had just finished the stand with the "ringfenced" money from the start and played ball with the council then it maybe wouldn't have got this far down the road, the council may have given them the deal they were after and all this debt wouldn't have been incurred and everyone may have lived happily ever after. All speculation of course, just like a lot of the waffle on here.

And say that others should be a politician?
You've done a great job of avoiding that particular question.  8)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 17, 2021, 07:38:32 am
And say that others should be a politician?
You've done a great job of avoiding that particular question.  8)

That was Shoemaker (no relation). Easy mistake to make. :)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 16:15:31 pm
Random, with respect which is it, supporting the club financially or not incurring debt. It seems to me thereís a contradiction between the two? Unless you are suggesting that the owners should have developed the ground from the get go and turned an immediate profit. Or perhaps they should have doubled the debt by developing the ground and spending money on the pitch. I understand the criticism to some extent but I am yet to see any convincing alternative that goes even half way towards a completely acceptable outcome. As I said when it comes to outlay the current owners have put in more than any other owners in our history according to the submitted accounts. If any money for the club purchase has gone offshore that would still need to be declared or my understanding is that its tax evasion. If thatís what people think then perhaps they should say it and if true, me and a few others will undoubtedly be the first to apologise. So whoís going to put their hand up and take ownership of that accusation?

As you said Melly, KT gained control of the club and its land assets by agreeing to build the East stand with £4m 'ringfenced' money, so if that had done that and the club had debts of £6m or so then fine, we have something to show for it.

Prior to them arriving the club had assets in said land, all be it, on complicated leases etc. Once that land is developed it is gone, it is a once in a lifetime opportunity. so KT proposal is that the club gets £3m spent on the East stand with a few boxes, a small car park behind and thats it. At this stage we don't know what the East stand will be, quite frankly I don't trust KT to deliver even on the CGI plan. I am expecting a Cardoza like "best value for the football club" with consulting fees to the tune of £100,000s (remember DC and his dad charged the club £2m in fees for the development that was paid out to them by the Bushey lot from NBC money) and so the stand having a very basic fit, even just single storey fitted out.

So from an asset worth around £20m under control of the football club we get little value, no more space to expand, no conference centre, no roof top terrace restaurants that would look out on Upton lake, no 24/7 income. Let alone what we could do with the other £7m, assuming half split with the council. No we get very little and more lost opportunities.

What does KT / DB get?  Well they paid £1 for the club, and paid a tax bill of £166k, obviously other bills but also other income. They then buy 22 acres of land for £170k, then sell the club to the Chinese for £6.7m, they then re-acquire the club for free (i believe, they have never refutted this) from the Chinese. So for the princely sum of £336k approx they have received 22 acres of land worth approx £20m and £6.7m in cash.  £26.7m on £336k investment. WOW WOW WOW.

Now they have had the inconvenience of having a football club attached to all this and as we all know it is very very very difficult to make money in football but very very very easy to spend and lose money. The accounts show that they have lost over £6m, however the accounts do not show us any details, we don't know how those numbers are been created. Sure JFH and some of the useless players we have signed cost a bit, but not one of those signings were marque ones that we might have got excited about, so not big money. Also that £6m is a profit & loss figure so is made up of invoices, what is say that there are invoices from BVI based businesses for consulting and management fees ?  we just don't know, all i do know is when I look around the ground and the football club I don't see where we have spend and lost £60k let alone £6m.

The football pyramid and it's history is full of clubs going bust, owners who sell grounds and burden communities and football clubs with bad debts, deals and contracts. Clubs that overspend, rely on short term spending owners have been a massive problem as one day it all comes home to roost , why? mainly because the ego's (and sometimes greed) of the owners is far more important to them that the town and communities those football clubs are in.

German football thrives because of togetherness and community, the 50+1 model works, helped by a joint TV deal that gives the football clubs millions not thousands we get in here. Exeter City is supporter owned and run, they have developed the ground with a new stand (2 i think) and their Trust gives the football club £100k each year from it's membership. Exeter have a population that is half of ours and they can do it 100%, why? because they are owned and run by supporters who love their club. Why can't we do it? I have seen the goodwill, energy and effort that many fans make in supporting the club, we marched on the Guildhall as we wanted better, small businesses have given their services free. IF NTFC WAS LOCALLY OWNED do you think local business, WNC, individuals and fans would be more willing to support their local club, if they see the ground had a lick of paint and people were there every day doing improving bit by bit, every aspect of the club, would they be willing to match and beat the effort of Exeter and their community?

A German girl had £30k raised for her because she was upset and crying when England beat them in the Euros, it clearly shows the power of community and crowd funding. Our history, our fanbase, our town, our catchment area deserves better, together we can achieve so much more.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 17, 2021, 16:58:25 pm
As you said Melly, KT gained control of the club and its land assets by agreeing to build the East stand with £4m 'ringfenced' money


But did he though?

I remember him saying that they had that money after they come in. But are you sure it was a qualifying criteria to get ownership?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 17, 2021, 17:32:56 pm
As you said Melly, KT gained control of the club and its land assets by agreeing to build the East stand with £4m 'ringfenced' money, so if that had done that and the club had debts of £6m or so then fine, we have something to show for it.


But it wouldn't be 6m it would be 10m, or do you think that the 4m ringfenced money would be a gift?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on July 17, 2021, 17:55:05 pm
When they took over with whatever promises were made the club did not own/lease the larger parcel of land. It had been separated to CDNL. It was only their smart manoeuvring during the administration process that got them control.
 The clubs land still is quite substantial in its own right and under-utilised overall.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 17, 2021, 17:59:11 pm
But it wouldn't be 6m it would be 10m, or do you think that the 4m ringfenced money would be a gift?

But if heíd done what he said in the first place, the council may have agreed a deal with him years ago, KT etc would have got a load of money, maybe given us a bit and the -£10M would maybe have been + a few quid, maybe, blah blah blah.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 17, 2021, 18:22:59 pm
But did he though?

I remember him saying that they had that money after they come in. But are you sure it was a qualifying criteria to get ownership?

Are you sure it wasn't? At the last minute there was more than just KT's bid on the table...what do you think swung the council to go with him? Just the fact he got in first? The "proof" of £11m in ready funds? The non-legally binding commitment to finish off the stand? A combination of all the above perhaps?

I did have to laugh at one of your earlier posts, you claimed not to be bothered about the stand..in fact it barely raised much more than a "whimper above your head"......

You do realise that no stand = no land, no land could well equal no club?

Sounds like you are readying yourself for the home games on the Racecourse already.......


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 17, 2021, 18:24:27 pm
But if heíd done what he said in the first place, the council may have agreed a deal with him years ago, KT etc would have got a load of money, maybe given us a bit and the -£10M would maybe have been + a few quid, maybe, blah blah blah.

It's all those uncertainties though isn't it? He could equally have finished the stand as soon as he arrived and still be waiting for permission from the council to do the surrounding redevelopment, he'd just be much deeper in the hole while trying to do it.

Some people are in cloud cuckoo land. I'd love to know if they'd spýnk their own money so freely and so frivolously!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 17, 2021, 18:28:55 pm
It's all those uncertainties though isn't it? He could equally have finished the stand as soon as he arrived and still be waiting for permission from the council to do the surrounding redevelopment, he'd just be much deeper in the hole while trying to do it.

Some people are in cloud cuckoo land. I'd love to know if they'd spýnk their own money so freely and so frivolously!

I thought the stand, the boxes and the conferencing/banqueting rooms etc would be a little goldmine....we could have had 6 years of "24-7" operations by now.......


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 17, 2021, 18:42:57 pm
It's all those uncertainties though isn't it? He could equally have finished the stand as soon as he arrived and still be waiting for permission from the council to do the surrounding redevelopment, he'd just be much deeper in the hole while trying to do it.

Some people are in cloud cuckoo land. I'd love to know if they'd spýnk their own money so freely and so frivolously!

Yes but maybe most of the speculation on here is just that, maybe. Nobody knows what might have happened or actually what will happen. Probably not a lot, maybe.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 17, 2021, 19:21:37 pm
I thought the stand, the boxes and the conferencing/banqueting rooms etc would be a little goldmine....we could have had 6 years of "24-7" operations by now.......

They will help, but I suspect the ROI on the build will be over many years!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 20:43:39 pm
But did he though?

I remember him saying that they had that money after they come in. But are you sure it was a qualifying criteria to get ownership?

I assume this is a wind up quote, you know damn well it was the reason he got the club for a £1 with NBC wiping off the £10m



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 20:51:41 pm
It's all those uncertainties though isn't it? He could equally have finished the stand as soon as he arrived and still be waiting for permission from the council to do the surrounding redevelopment, he'd just be much deeper in the hole while trying to do it.

Some people are in cloud cuckoo land. I'd love to know if they'd spýnk their own money so freely and so frivolously!

AGAIN, part of the deal to control the club was as he said he would finish the East Stand and had £4m ring fenced. You have to also remember that there was a lot of heat around NBC at the time and the East stand needed to be finished. It wasn't a case of i will do it in 8 years time, also KT said they expected to be here about 5 years.

To grow businesses you have to invest, most of the time you pay up front and hope you earn a return. Nobody forced KT to be involved, he said he would do one thing and didn't bother. He received £6.7m for the club and retained ownership and STILL didn't want to invest that money into the club (although they did put in some after bring in some players as they thought the Chinese would be in charge and picking up the bill)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 17, 2021, 21:03:25 pm
AGAIN, part of the deal to control the club was as he said he would finish the East Stand and had £4m ring fencedWith no time line.. You have to also remember that there was a lot of heat around NBC at the time and the East stand needed to be finished. It wasn't a case of i will do it in 8 years time, also KT said they expected to be here about 5 years. Maybe we should be thankful that they are here longer then that

To grow businesses you have to invest, most of the time you pay up front and hope you earn a return. Nobody forced KT to be involved, he said he would do one thing and didn't bother. He received £6.7m for the clubwhere do you get this from? This is just a trust insinuation and retained ownership and STILL didn't want to invest that money into the club (although they did put in some after bring in some players as they thought the Chinese would be in charge and picking up the bill)Fķck me the blinkered view of some people astounds me



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 21:04:38 pm
But it wouldn't be 6m it would be 10m, or do you think that the 4m ringfenced money would be a gift?

No I am saying that if we were £6m in debt and that included a developed East stand then fine.

You really think the club should be £6m in debt?  Perhaps it is that badly run that we have to pay players, managers and coaches a fortune to even come here

So if you were an agent, what reason would you want your player to come to NTFC? Because I know I wouldn't. The only possible reason is that he would be overpaid and we are centrally located so commuting might be easier. Dont think they would care to much that we had a good away following and had potential to do much better.

I wouldn't recommend my player here as (in no particular order)

1. The management / owners are not here and live 3000+ miles away
2. The ground is small and only 3.5 sides.
3. The club doesn't have it's own training facilities and train in public
4. The hospitality area is embarrassing and no corporate boxes
5. The club / owners have financial scandal in its past and rumours of one now
6. The club does not recognised it's own Supporters Trust
7. The club has a poor history in selling players
8. The club has possibly signed the highest number of players in the league over the last 12 years
9. The club has employed one of the highest number of managers in the last 12 years.
10, The owners have no plans and no ambitions for the football club and are embroiled in a land deal with the local council

I could go on but you get the idea.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 21:08:39 pm


The £6.7m is NOT a Trust insinuation, it is fact, they do have evidence. Also the story was first reported by a National journalist

OK I have a blinkered view you think, why not but YOUR view then, go on just for once, someone tell me why KT / DB deserved to own and run our football club

If you were a football agent, why would you want your player at NTFC?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 17, 2021, 21:14:45 pm
No I am saying that if we were £6m in debt and that included a developed East stand then fine.

You really think the club should be £6m in debt?  Perhaps it is that badly run that we have to pay players, managers and coaches a fortune to even come here

So if you were an agent, what reason would you want your player to come to NTFC? Because I know I wouldn't. The only possible reason is that he would be overpaid and we are centrally located so commuting might be easier. Dont think they would care to much that we had a good away following and had potential to do much better.

I wouldn't recommend my player here as (in no particular order)

1. The management / owners are not here and live 3000+ miles awayI don't give a shŪt where they live
2. The ground is small and only 3.5 sides.And we still can't fill that
3. The club doesn't have it's own training facilities and train in publicwho gives a shŪt
4. The hospitality area is embarrassing and no corporate boxessee above
5. The club / owners have financial scandal in its past and rumours of one nowbe very careful where you go from here
6. The club does not recognised it's own Supporters TrustI would not trust them to go and get me a puzza from Dominos without them changing the toppings to suit their taste.
7. The club has a poor history in selling playersWell fķck my tall hat, blame that on the managers not the owners
8. The club has possibly signed the highest number of players in the league over the last 12 yearsThis shows that the owners are prepared to spend money when required
9. The club has employed one of the highest number of managers in the last 12 years.See above
10, The owners have no plans and no ambitions for the football club and are embroiled in a land deal with the local councilAnd you know this how?

I could go on but you get the idea.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 21:18:18 pm
Here is the Daily Mail report:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4742848/Northampton-Town-new-Chinese-investment.html

Also read between the lines and ask why was the deal done off-shore?  Also why would the Chinese pay over £6m for a club (and club only) that the owners acquired just 2 years before for £1 and £166k VAT bill to pay? Also how would a business turning over less than £1m, with 4 employees, have £6m to invest in a small football club not worth investing in (according to KT)

It's in black and white, Singcobb is that proof enough for you, sorry KT / DB would give me access to their bank accounts and business dealings to confirm this.

Also KT is very quick (and his staff) to issue PR statements regarding the rights and wrongs etc, yet has never once issued a statement denying this or that the money was paid back.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 21:22:08 pm
10, The owners have no plans and no ambitions for the football club and are embroiled in a land deal with the local councilAnd you know this how?

OK you explain our owners plans and ambitions for the football club........

Please believe me I want our owners to have a plan, to develop our club, to build on the community, to have some success on the pitch that isn't a flash in the pan etc etc etc but again after a cheap promotion we are back in League 2 and already mid table in the eyes of the bookies.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 21:23:47 pm
 The club does not recognised it's own Supporters TrustI would not trust them to go and get me a puzza from Dominos without them changing the toppings to suit their taste.

I wouldn't trust our owner to even order the pizza although you might say, yeah he has but he didn't say what year it would be delivered


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 21:28:26 pm
The ground is small and only 3.5 sides.And we still can't fill that

and whose fault do you think that is?  we have a population of 236000 the biggest in League 2 without another side in the immediate area and we can't fill the smallest ground in the League of any club established over 50 years

Ask yourself, sure you have friends, family etc who no longer go to watch NTFC, why is that, what is their reason they don't go back?

IF we were top of The Championship, how many of them would be going?

Where are the 7000 who went to MK?  Why do they not go every game? 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 17, 2021, 21:33:51 pm
Alright, we get it Random, the Trust can do no wrong, the club can do no right. You can stop now.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 17, 2021, 21:42:39 pm
I have been very critical of the Trust in the past.

Why not post some evidence where the Trust are wrong or that I have KT all wrong and he is great for NTFC  because no one ever does


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 17, 2021, 21:45:21 pm
The ground is small and only 3.5 sides.And we still can't fill that

and whose fault do you think that is?  we have a population of 236000 the biggest in League 2 without another side in the immediate area and we can't fill the smallest ground in the League of any club established over 50 years

Ask yourself, sure you have friends, family etc who no longer go to watch NTFC, why is that, what is their reason they don't go back?

IF we were top of The Championship, how many of them would be going?

Where are the 7000 who went to MK?  Why do they not go every game? 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Smoking Boots on July 17, 2021, 21:59:30 pm
I have been very critical of the Trust in the past.

Why not post some evidence where the Trust are wrong or that I have KT all wrong and he is great for NTFC  because no one ever does

Why not email the EFL, and give them the full heads up, reports etc..they are trying to crack down on rouge owners now.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 17, 2021, 22:07:00 pm


100 years. Not disagreeing with most of anything else youíve posted though, just highlighting itís even more embarrassing for us, even though there are many who donít see it. Yes Iím happy to still have a league club to support and yes would still support us on the Racecourse etc etc, although weíd be in the Town league and I doubt if any former league club has actually fallen that far. Weíve had several chances to better ourselves over the years but be it the council or numerous allegedly rogue owners, we are still in the same/worse position weíve ever been......for over 100 years.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 17, 2021, 23:24:57 pm
We are still left with the assumption that an organisation paid over 6 million into an off shore account on the instructions of a UK based company to gain a majority share holding. Got nothing and walked away without a single legal challenge or application when it would be a piece of cake to do so once demonstrated the funds transfer took place. Additionally the funds would be an asset of the club that they would be legally obliged to declare irrespective of the location of those funds. In the event it wasnít declared and 5U Sport made a legal challenge, the transaction would be revealed and the owners are in the position of explaining potential evasion to the HMRC. Thatís what the suggestion is, is it? People are free to make up their own minds obviously but which is more likely, the above or the money never got paid in the first place?

I should point out again that in the event the money was paid and the owners took it as a personal payment they would be liable for the personal tax liability in their country of residence. Had they have took the money as a payback on their shareholders loans their would be no tax at all. The top rate of tax in the US is just under 40% and the UAE is just over 50%. So assume if this was the case they would have copped for about just over half so they ended up with about 3.5million less legal and bank fees etc. Again if it was paid off against the loan they would have got the lot.

Put the 2 together and ask yourself which is the most likely assuming everything is legal and above board. Again unless someone is going to go on the record and state it wasnít?

By the way if it is the latter scenario then they havenít ended up with over 6 million clearing the debt so the conspiracy theorists need to redo their sums.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 17, 2021, 23:27:28 pm
We are still left with the assumption that an organisation paid over 6 million into an off shore account on the instructions of a UK based company to gain a majority share holding. Got nothing and walked away without a single legal challenge or application when it would be a piece of cake to do so once demonstrated the funds transfer took place. Additionally the funds would be an asset of the club that they would be legally obliged to declare irrespective of the location of those funds. In the event it wasnít declared and 5U Sport made a legal challenge, the transaction would be revealed and the owners are in the position of explaining potential evasion to the HMRC. Thatís what the suggestion is, is it? People are free to make up their own minds obviously but which is more likely, the above or the money never got paid in the first place?

I should point out again that in the event the money was paid and the owners took it as a personal payment they would be liable for the personal tax liability in their country of residence. Had they have took the money as a payback on their shareholders loans their would be no tax at all. The top rate of tax in the US is just under 40% and the UAE is just over 50%. So assume if this was the case they would have copped for about just over half so they ended up with about 3.5million less legal and bank fees etc. Again if it was paid off against the loan they would have got the lot.

Put the 2 together and ask yourself which is the most likely assuming everything is legal and above board. Again unless someone is going to go on the record and state it wasnít?
There was a legal challenge.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 17, 2021, 23:33:01 pm
There was a legal challenge.
What happened?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 17, 2021, 23:50:42 pm
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/chinese-investors-claim-they-are-still-major-stakeholders-cobblers-despite-apparent-split-309497


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 17, 2021, 23:55:21 pm
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/chinese-investors-claim-they-are-still-major-stakeholders-cobblers-despite-apparent-split-309497
Manny thatís not a legal challenge, thatís a statement in the press. Perhaps they didnít make the payment and kept the money people had invested with them in China. Who knows there are all sorts of possibilities including the one some have suggested. All I am stating is which is most likely, this conspiracy theory is away with the fairies as far as I am concerned, only my opinion though mate.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 18, 2021, 00:00:56 am
Manny thatís not a legal challenge, thatís a statement in the press. Perhaps they didnít make the payment and kept the money people had invested with them in China. Who knows there are all sorts of possibilities including the one some have suggested. All I am stating is which is most likely, this conspiracy theory is away with the fairies as far as I am concerned, only my opinion though mate.
I think the trust have more ď evidence ď but youíll have to ask them Melly.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 18, 2021, 00:03:58 am
(https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/images-o.jpimedia.uk/imagefetch/http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/webimage/Prestige.Item.1.103424034!image/image.jpg?crop=982:736,smart&width=990)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 18, 2021, 00:09:09 am
(https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/images-o.jpimedia.uk/imagefetch/http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/webimage/Prestige.Item.1.103424034!image/image.jpg?crop=982:736,smart&width=990)
There you go, that 5U Sport gentleman is not wearing a tie. Never trust any businessman in an open necked shirt, everyone knows that.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 18, 2021, 01:36:20 am
I think the trust have more ď evidence ď but youíll have to ask them Melly.
Thereís evidence online that at the time the supporters trust were fully supportive of kelvins stance.

Maybe theyíd care to mention why that was , if they ever fully investigated the situation at the time and why four years down the line they seem to have a polar opposite opinion.

Surely if any of the board members who were on the trust board then , remain on it now , then surely their positions are untenable ???

What faith can supporters have that they may not change their minds again next week??


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 18, 2021, 04:26:18 am
Are you sure it wasn't? At the last minute there was more than just KT's bid on the table...what do you think swung the council to go with him? Just the fact he got in first? The "proof" of £11m in ready funds? The non-legally binding commitment to finish off the stand? A combination of all the above perhaps?

I did have to laugh at one of your earlier posts, you claimed not to be bothered about the stand..in fact it barely raised much more than a "whimper above your head"......

You do realise that no stand = no land, no land could well equal no club?

Sounds like you are readying yourself for the home games on the Racecourse already.......

Iím genuinely not bothered at all. Itís a shame that once again you question my word for it. I asked the question purely to provoke a response that absolutely bolsters my argument. Not to protect KT or DB. But to amplify the point that I have persistently made, that our issues stem from a lack of due diligence by the council.

Surely you can see my point. Why has the Trust board never, not once, took the council to task? How can it be that the current OWNERS of Sixfields, allowed a lease to be signed, according to you and Random, that laid us bare to the current situation? Is it only me that can see that if that happened, almost parallel to Cardoza taking us for a ride, it must warrant significant attention, certainly equal, if not more than that levelled at those who you allege exploited the situation.

I can assure you, like with the Chinese money. All of my questions are for one reason and one reason only. Itís time to just shut up or produce evidence. The Trust is suffering. The club is suffering, and certainly the support is not being served by any of this epitome of ďsmoke and mirrorsĒ. Just fcuking grow up all of you  🙄🙄🙄



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 18, 2021, 09:42:32 am
Iím genuinely not bothered at all. Itís a shame that once again you question my word for it. I asked the question purely to provoke a response that absolutely bolsters my argument. Not to protect KT or DB. But to amplify the point that I have persistently made, that our issues stem from a lack of due diligence by the council.

Surely you can see my point. Why has the Trust board never, not once, took the council to task? How can it be that the current OWNERS of Sixfields, allowed a lease to be signed, according to you and Random, that laid us bare to the current situation? Is it only me that can see that if that happened, almost parallel to Cardoza taking us for a ride, it must warrant significant attention, certainly equal, if not more than that levelled at those who you allege exploited the situation.

I can assure you, like with the Chinese money. All of my questions are for one reason and one reason only. Itís time to just shut up or produce evidence. The Trust is suffering. The club is suffering, and certainly the support is not being served by any of this epitome of ďsmoke and mirrorsĒ. Just fcuking grow up all of you 🙄🙄🙄


Love the opening and closing statements you sound like Kevin and Perry go large.
I donít believe I have ever heard you criticise KT, conversely does this mean he has done everything to your liking?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Risdene on July 18, 2021, 11:05:05 am
Love the opening and closing statements you sound like Kevin and Perry go large.
I donít believe I have ever heard you criticise KT, conversely does this mean he has done everything to your liking?

I don't believe I have ever heard you 'praise' KT, does this mean he has done 'nothing' to your liking?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 18, 2021, 12:35:47 pm
I don't believe I have ever heard you 'praise' KT, does this mean he has done 'nothing' to your liking?
My caption under the photo Manny posted was trying to make the not too subtle point that people will only see what they want to see. To an extent once an opinion has been formed, I think most of us are a bit guilty of that.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 18, 2021, 13:18:36 pm
Love the opening and closing statements you sound like Kevin and Perry go large.
I donít believe I have ever heard you criticise KT, conversely does this mean he has done everything to your liking?

I have certainly criticised KT. Equally you like most wonít find any evidence of me supporting him or the Trust.

You GPC and Random are lost to any reasoning or alternative to your opinion.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on July 18, 2021, 18:28:45 pm
Glad to see another thread degenerate yet although I donít think weíve got to Godwinís yet.  Iíll be glad when the real football starts so we can moan about that as well as ownership/trust issues


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 18, 2021, 19:44:55 pm
I don't believe I have ever heard you 'praise' KT, does this mean he has done 'nothing' to your liking?
Wrong, Iíve praised him when he does something good, like when he refunded season tickets.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 18, 2021, 19:46:26 pm
I have certainly criticised KT. Equally you like most wonít find any evidence of me supporting him or the Trust.

You GPC and Random are lost to any reasoning or alternative to your opinion.
You speak like you are very important, am I correct?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Keith on July 18, 2021, 20:42:05 pm
I have certainly criticised KT. Equally you like most wonít find any evidence of me supporting him or the Trust.

You GPC and Random are lost to any reasoning or alternative to your opinion.

but you've not met Queen,so you can't comment


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 18, 2021, 22:09:19 pm
You speak like you are very important, am I correct?

I have no idea what youíre on about lately.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 22, 2021, 10:47:46 am
I don't know if people are still interested but I finally received a response yesterday evening to the questions I put to the Supporters Trust a couple of weeks ago.

I'll post them below in seperate posts rather than one massive message for ease of reading.  I'm posting them completely as I asked them and they were answered.  I do obviously have some thoughts on the answers but in the interest of balance I'll write them seperately later.  The trust were made aware at the time I asked the questions that I planned on sharing the answers.

I realise it's a lot of info and if you are not interested simply move on to something else.  I think it's important we all ask questions of ALL parties involved in this debate and hopefully the answers will be useful in some way.

I think it's fair for me to say that I will be replying to the Trust to seek further info on a couple of questions that I feel haven't been answered or have been answered in a way that is not clear.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 22, 2021, 10:50:15 am
What changed specifically in the plans for the build from September 2020 to June this year?  I ask because the Trust and Club released a joint statement backing the plans in September.  Have they changed significantly from what you were told the plans were going to be?  You repeatedly state the deal on the table to the council has not changed since many years ago so I assume the trust were aware this was the deal last September when they publicly backed the plans?

One of the roles of the Trust is to safeguard the future of professional football in Northampton. We identified several risk factors that are material to this.

Firstly, the level of debt owed by the club to the owners has escalated to nearly £6.8 million and will increase to nearly £10 million if loan capital is used to complete the East Stand.

Secondly, the club is entirely reliant on funding from one individual, without whose support the club would be in deep financial trouble. This is confirmed in most reports by the auditors in NTFCís accounts in recent years, including the most recent set of statements.

Thirdly, we work on a realistic assumption that those who lend will wish to be repaid at some stage in the future. The owners cannot recoup their investment from core operations of the club, as it is loss making, so they must therefore rely on a land deal in respect of the leasehold plots to the east of the stadium.

In turn, this is reliant on an agreement with West Northamptonshire Council, which is by no means guaranteed, given the level of hostility of local council taxpayers to the club following the misfeasance that followed the £10 million loan to the club.

To address these risks, and to seek further information, the Trust produced a list of questions and sought written formal responses. NTFC chairman Kelvin Thomas had invited questions.  The Trust did so, in pursuit of reassurances but also in its capacity as a minority shareholder in the club. Any shareholder is entitled to ask questions of those directing and controlling a company on their behalf.

The club has not been prepared to answer these questions in writing, offering a Zoom call instead. We do not consider Zoom is the right forum to answer detailed questions.  The Trust board decided that it can no longer support the clubís plans based on incomplete information.

Our basic premise is that we expect NTFC to receive significant investment benefit (as opposed to loan debt) as this is a land deal being sought in the name of the football club.

With many questions remaining unanswered, we fear that a deal will leave the club with a basic East Stand, no cash in the bank, no additional assets and no land value to fall back on.

Also, the statement released by the trust backing the deal was not conditional or we (the fans/members) certainly were not told it was at the time it was made.

The original support for the plans were made in the spirit of ongoing cooperation, but the Trust can only support initiatives in which it has confidence. Although support was not Ďconditionalí, it cannot be assumed to be Ďunconditionalí if changing circumstances dictate that we no longer have reasonable assurance that the clubís best interests will be served.

 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 22, 2021, 10:51:47 am
What does the Trust view as an acceptable completion of the East Stand if the current plans do not meet that?  What are the specific expectations for an acceptable completion?  Have you shared this vision with the club and what was their response?


Like all supporters, the Trust would obviously like to see the East Stand completed to an acceptable standard.  Unfortunately, there is very limited information available and none has been volunteered other than what was on show recently which is little different from what has been selectively seen previously.   For example, we are told that the estimated cost of the works needed to complete the stand is £3 million but we have seen no analysis for that amount, there is no independent verification that what is proposed represents value for money.  The Trust has never seen or heard reference to any alternative proposals.  We doubt that there has been any consideration of alternatives.  The Trust does not know the budgets, timing of cash flows, the extent to which the club may be tied into contracts with Buckingham Group and so on.

The most recent statement by the club issued on its open day states that the owners will complete the stand from their own resources, so it is assumed this is their intention. However, it should be noted that the same statement was made six years ago.  If any up-front investment is made by the owners the Trust believes the club will be loaded with an equivalent level of debt of say £3m pushing total debt up from £6m to £9m plus further cash flow finance required and so taking total indebtedness to in the region of £10m.  Further, whilst our owners are quick to comment that the construction costs will be met by them this will only happen if their proposal, which includes the reimbursement to the club (and so the owners) of the £3 million construction costs from the top slice of land sales, is agreed by WNC.  This is a matter for WNC to decide but in the light of the history of this matter it is likely to be the subject of significant debate within the council and outside of it.  We see no quick decision being made.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 22, 2021, 10:56:07 am
Regarding the 5U Sport saga.  How long has the Trust known about the financial information it published in its statement last weekend?

The Trust became aware of this financial information last summer and the board at that time took the decision not to disclose it publicly, rather write a closed and confidential letter to the club about this information.  The reply to that closed letter Ė written in September 2020 - was leaked by the club to a third party and published earlier this month. 

What physical evidence do you have that the payments were made/money changed hands for the amounts quoted?  Can that be shared to support the trusts statements?

The Trust Board is satisfied that the evidence of the payments in the amounts stated is accurate.

What is the purpose of the Trust releasing this information in a statement now?

The financial information was released publicly earlier this month after the club owners refused to give written answers to questions about their financial commitment to the football club in respect of the ongoing land deal discussions and because several members of the Trust (and some non-members) were aware of aspects of this financial information and were asking us about it.

Is the Trust saying or implying that some wrongdoing has taken place here?  Either in company law, football league ownership rules or just morally?

The information issued by the Trust is just that: it is information from which any reader of our release can draw their own conclusions. It is factual information.

The suggestion in some posts on social media is that the Trust has a confrontational relationship with the club. While there are disagreements on some issues, the relationship is cordial, and the meetings are always conducted as such.

Has the Trust raised any of these concerns if they have any with Companies house, the Football League, the local council, or any other official body that this would be of interest to?

We are not able to make a detailed reply to this question.  The Trust is regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and complies with its reporting obligations. 

We are aware that some former senior NBC councillors and current WNC councillors have been aware from sources independent of the Trust of issues concerning 5U Sports dealings for some time.

If yes when was this done and what were their responses?

Not applicable.

I understand that the Trust has had conversations in the past with KT regarding the 5U Sports deal and there is written correspondence regarding this matter.  What was said during this correspondence and what explanation given?  And can the supporters see this correspondence for complete context?

As above.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 22, 2021, 10:57:54 am
Finally, while I understand the Trust Board deal with the day to day running of the Supporters Trust at what point do the matters become so fundamental to the future of the club that you would consult your membership and the wider fan base to ensure the important decisions you are making are what the majority wishes?

There are certain triggers that would prompt a member-wide consultation. These include a sale of the club, the withdrawal of support by the main finance provider or any event considered to be material to the future of the club. Another example would be if the Council withdrew from dealings in relation to the land, as this would suggest that the owners would face a massive, unrecoverable loss. God forbid, if David Bower were suddenly incapacitated as this would have enormous consequences for the club.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 11:25:48 am
Thank you for this MC

Can you post up the answers from similar questions you have asked KT please.

Thanks


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 22, 2021, 11:26:31 am
Credit where its due, that is generally a good response to the questions. I don't necessarily agree with some of it but thats just my opinion.

This is where I have said in the past there are some very valid questions and concerns laid out that the Trust have every right to seek answers too.
As previously I do think it was a mistake to decline the Zoom call as some are complex, multi layered questions so a call to ensure clarity followed by minutes signed by both sides would for me have been the right way to go.
Again as previously, I think a discussion with the owners on transparency is needed, for example, I understand why the Trust want to know the following
Quote
The Trust does not know the budgets, timing of cash flows, the extent to which the club may be tied into contracts with Buckingham Group and so on.
but also understand why any owners would see it as private. Just an example


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 22, 2021, 11:31:15 am
Thanks for asking the questions and sharing the results, MC.

That first one is a proper politician's answer, but what they are essentially saying is the Trust made a decision to back the redev plans and then realised they'd done so without being properly informed, couldn't get a written response from the club and then changed their mind.

It's still in hissy fit territory for me, especially as they themselves go on to refuse to provide a written response to certain questions they've been asked, citing regulatory reasons.

Can they not see the irony there?

I'm not saying they are wrong in refusing an answer, far from it, but how is that different to the club not wanting to respond to written questions? Or would they be sated by a written response from the club that just says "We are not able to answer this due to commercial sensitivities" in response to every question? Hey, it would be a written response, right?? Maybe then they could move beyond the stubbornness and accept the offer of a Zoom call?

Also, interesting that the Trust acknowledge the authenticity of the letter "leaked" by the club. It would be even more interesting if they responded to the allegations made in the letter about soliciting a hatchet job from the national media, wouldn't it?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 11:32:42 am
Woody, the owners might want the figures to be private but when the money is coming from public funds / NTFC land asset, the people of Northampton need to know they are getting a fair deal.

We have to learn from the DC debacle. Remember many people questioning the cost of building the stand and DC saying it's the best deal we can get. Turned out that one reason is was such poor value was that it included £2m "consultation fees" for him and his dad.

We don't want similar happening this time



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 11:43:01 am
BOTN   what you seem to be forgetting is that KT wanted the Trust to back him with regards to WBC and the land deal.

Given KT appalling treatment of the Trust over the last 6 years, they rightly asked for answers in writing. If anyone had a hissy fit, as you put it, it is KT. IMHO the Trust have been extremely patience and accommodating to KT, perhaps they just had enough.

Dont think it is even worth replying to the ridiculous accusation of a hatchet job, it wasn't the Trust who didn't tell it's own supporters that the club has actually been sold. 

So what if they even did (not sure exactly what the issue is) speak to the National press, trying to raise awareness that our owner is in it just for himself and had pocketed £6.7m, can't go to local media can they ?




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 22, 2021, 11:54:22 am
Thanks for asking the questions and sharing the results, MC.

That first one is a proper politician's answer, but what they are essentially saying is the Trust made a decision to back the redev plans and then realised they'd done so without being properly informed, couldn't get a written response from the club and then changed their mind.

It's still in hissy fit territory for me, especially as they themselves go on to refuse to provide a written response to certain questions they've been asked, citing regulatory reasons.

Can they not see the irony there?

I'm not saying they are wrong in refusing an answer, far from it, but how is that different to the club not wanting to respond to written questions? Or would they be sated by a written response from the club that just says "We are not able to answer this due to commercial sensitivities" in response to every question? Hey, it would be a written response, right?? Maybe then they could move beyond the stubbornness and accept the offer of a Zoom call?

Also, interesting that the Trust acknowledge the authenticity of the letter "leaked" by the club. It would be even more interesting if they responded to the allegations made in the letter about soliciting a hatchet job from the national media, wouldn't it?

Complying with financial conduct authority reporting regulations (if factually correct) and declining information to others for 'commercial sensitivities' does not like comparable reasons to me. The Trust are minority shareholders, it is in their interests that they get the best deal for themselves in that capacity just as KT and DB do.
I don't see any irony attaching personally?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 22, 2021, 12:02:13 pm
BOTN   what you seem to be forgetting is that KT wanted the Trust to back him with regards to WBC and the land deal.

Given KT appalling treatment of the Trust over the last 6 years, they rightly asked for answers in writing. If anyone had a hissy fit, as you put it, it is KT. IMHO the Trust have been extremely patience and accommodating to KT, perhaps they just had enough.

Dont think it is even worth replying to the ridiculous accusation of a hatchet job, it wasn't the Trust who didn't tell it's own supporters that the club has actually been sold. 

So what if they even did (not sure exactly what the issue is) speak to the National press, trying to raise awareness that our owner is in it just for himself and had pocketed £6.7m, can't go to local media can they ?


I think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. It's not dissimilar to on here; only yesterday Evers had rubbed people the wrong way and a few of us had a bit of a dig at him.  It was a disproportionate reaction if taken in isolation but was the result of minor cumulative annoyances. Either way, we were rightly taken to task and basically told to grow up. The Trust and the club need their heads knocking together and told similar because they've both just been rubbing each other up the wrong way for so long the slightest irritation now sets either of them off.

As to seeing nothing wrong with our own supporters trust apparently trying to bring the club's owners into national disrepute.... wow.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: DogMan on July 22, 2021, 12:19:02 pm
....and just think...if the owners were up front and said "We have just sold not just 60%...but 100% of YOUR club to a Chinese company you have never heard of"...everybody would have been fine with that, wouldn't we?

Im still curious why Fans of NTFC have not questioned the statement by the owners that they " RE-AQUIRED " the shares without actually saying they had bought them back.

That money is still in Bowers' and Thomas's bank accounts?
If so, why are the Chinese not kicking off?
If somebody had decided to do a business U-turn on me, I think I would have wanted my £6.68 Million back, wouldn't you.

Any Fans got any answers?

....and a last thought....None of this would be necessary if the owners had engaged with the Trust, an organisation for NTFC fans that is fighting to keep YOUR football club.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: DogMan on July 22, 2021, 12:34:54 pm
Another thing to think about.
For all the fans of the Cobblers.

Why did the owners insist on the Trust relinquishing 2 seats on the board as a condition of the owners accepting ownership of NTFC?

Did the owners not want to be open with anyone questioning the movement of monies?

So, going back to the Chinese question.......I would love a sound 100% water tight business answer to that one.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 22, 2021, 12:35:24 pm
....and just think...if the owners were up front and said "We have just sold not just 60%...but 100% of YOUR club to a Chinese company you have never heard of"...everybody would have been fine with that, wouldn't we?

Im still curious why Fans of NTFC have not questioned the statement by the owners that they " RE-AQUIRED " the shares without actually saying they had bought them back.

That money is still in Bowers' and Thomas's bank accounts?
If so, why are the Chinese not kicking off?
If somebody had decided to do a business U-turn on me, I think I would have wanted my £6.68 Million back, wouldn't you.

Any Fans got any answers?

....and a last thought....None of this would be necessary if the owners had engaged with the Trust, an organisation for NTFC fans that is fighting to keep YOUR football club.
Understanding where the Chinese obtained their money in the first instance might explain why they didn't kick off with greater force?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 22, 2021, 12:41:09 pm

As to seeing nothing wrong with our own supporters trust apparently trying to bring the club's owners into national disrepute.... wow.
If the Trust believe it is beyond contentious, why so?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: everbrite on July 22, 2021, 12:50:39 pm
Understanding where the Chinese obtained their money in the first instance might explain why they didn't kick off with greater force?

Interesting comment and adds to the mystery of the lack of potential involvement by them.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 13:12:46 pm
i expect the contract was in 2 parts - initial payment for shares of £6.8m to KT / DB and then £1.2m into NTFC.

As they didn't do the £1.2m they failed to meet the contract and expect the contract said they were in breach and so shares re-acquired.

Money was also paid off-shore so little /  nothing the authorities could / would do.

Again these are people who had a very small business in China suddenly overpaying X6 at least, for a football club 5000 miles away, and talked up by having our star striker visit in the name of Education.

so draw your own conclusions on that one.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 22, 2021, 14:14:37 pm
Woody, the owners might want the figures to be private but when the money is coming from public funds / NTFC land asset, the people of Northampton need to know they are getting a fair deal.

We have to learn from the DC debacle. Remember many people questioning the cost of building the stand and DC saying it's the best deal we can get. Turned out that one reason is was such poor value was that it included £2m "consultation fees" for him and his dad.

We don't want similar happening this time

Agree, but isn't that the responsibility of the council and part of the due diligence they are running?

We 100% need to learn from it, but equally cant let what (choosing my words carefully) some people may or may not have done to cloud our judgement of the current owners or any in the future.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 14:39:16 pm
agreed Woody, but you would hope that in the given situation and very tight deadlines, that you have to trust people and think that they are reasonable and well intentioned.

My judgement of the current owners is taken due to the following: (lots of other more trival matters)

1. He refused to repay £10k paid to keep the staff their so the deal could get done and the club would fulfil it's fixtures
2. All the same staff remained despite being in the employment and supported DC in all his actions
3. Knocked a hole in the home toilets and stopped there,
4. Didn't want to deal with the Supporters Trust at all
5. Stated the club doesn't warrant developing
6. Obviously didn't build the East stand with the £4m ringfenced.
7. That NTFC has now been the same for the last 10 years, repeating the same mistakes time after time, no plans, no ambitions, no imagination, just treading water after treating water,
8. Pocketed £6.8m by selling the club of the QT.
9. 95% focus on land deals
10. Offering the club to one group for one price and then to a NTFC fan for £1m more a week later.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 22, 2021, 14:56:42 pm
Thank you for this MC

Can you post up the answers from similar questions you have asked KT please.

Thanks


You're welcome. 

What was KT's response to the many questions you clearly have?  What did they say to you at the Open Day the other week?  Have they responded to any of your emails, letters or private messages? 

Would be good if you could post up the answers.

Thanks.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 15:32:44 pm
Thanks MC, you tell more yours and i'll tell you mine

and remember I asked first  ;D

Once again those who hold the Trust to a high level of scrutiny never give any reason or evidence of how or why KT has been good for NTFC

On a side note, if we had done an Exeter and kept with the same manager and support staff, ie: Rob Page, where do you think we would be today?

How much money would we have saved? and even better if that money had gone into infrastructure projects what would we have?  obviously not expecting an answer from MC, Tcobb, BOTN, SingCobb, Hammy and others but thought I would ask again


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 22, 2021, 15:57:24 pm
Thanks MC, you tell more yours and i'll tell you mine

and remember I asked first  ;D

Once again those who hold the Trust to a high level of scrutiny never give any reason or evidence of how or why KT has been good for NTFC

On a side note, if we had done an Exeter and kept with the same manager and support staff, ie: Rob Page, where do you think we would be today?

How much money would we have saved? and even better if that money had gone into infrastructure projects what would we have?  obviously not expecting an answer from MC, Tcobb, BOTN, SingCobb, Hammy and others but thought I would ask again
Exeter appointed Tisdale in 2006. Not including that seasons they spent 2 seasons in the conference, 3 of them in League 1 and 7 in League 2.
In the same time we've spent 5 years in League 1 and 7 in League 2

Not sure infrastructure wise or playing level its made any difference sticking with him.
Also not sure if Page was just an example but I suggest watching the highlights back from P*sh away!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 22, 2021, 16:12:15 pm
Thanks MC, you tell more yours and i'll tell you mine

and remember I asked first  ;D

Once again those who hold the Trust to a high level of scrutiny never give any reason or evidence of how or why KT has been good for NTFC

On a side note, if we had done an Exeter and kept with the same manager and support staff, ie: Rob Page, where do you think we would be today?

How much money would we have saved? and even better if that money had gone into infrastructure projects what would we have?  obviously not expecting an answer from MC, Tcobb, BOTN, SingCobb, Hammy and others but thought I would ask again

Well let's see....

What has KT/DB done that's been good?

  • Paid the inland revenue bill
  • Established the education programme
  • Made the club run in a much more professional manner
  • Stuck some seats in the East Stand so at least we are making some money from it in the interim
  • Been happy to engage with fans when approached directly (apparently, never bothered trying it myself beyond a cordial "hello" when passing him on the concourse.)
  • Overseen a big increase in the community work done
  • Subsidised the club with director loans to keep us going
  • Continued to slog through the red tape with the council for the redevelopment work

If by "done an Exeter" you mean gone into fan ownership, we probably wouldn't have been able to afford/attract Rob Page in the first place and if we had, with the side he assembled we'd have been as screwed as we were but unable to even attempt to buy our way out of the mess he'd created during the January transfer window (which we did try to do, another good thing KT did, even if it didn't work out)

If that money had gone into infrastructure projects? You have noticed we're losing money, right? If we hadn't spent the money on paying people off and trying to bail our way out of trouble, it still wouldn't have been available to invest in infrastructure projects because, in all likelihood, it would be needed to prop the club up (in the absence of director loans coming in).


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on July 22, 2021, 16:31:47 pm
NTFC CAN be run at a break even basis, it was under DC for a few years. Other clubs of our size are run at break even / small profit so who's fault is it that we are, allegedly, losing £1M a year ? I doubt that our playing budget is £1M a year more than the likes of Accrington & Exeter and both of those clubs get smaller gates than us so something's wrong somewhere.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 22, 2021, 17:22:34 pm
Quite a bit of interesting information in this document for any interested in rising above the standard fare and the usual agenda laced rhetoric. https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/uk/Documents/sports-business-group/deloitte-uk-annual-review-of-football-finance-2020.pdf


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 17:34:24 pm
Well let's see....

What has KT/DB done that's been good?

  • Paid the inland revenue bill
.     £166k out - £6.8m in   Others were also lined up to pay that relatively small bill.
  • Established the education programme
. Sorry what? do you mean the community programmes funded by around £1m grants each year?
  • Made the club run in a much more professional manner
Sorry you really are going to give more detail than that. How exactly?
  • Stuck some seats in the East Stand so at least we are making some money from it in the interim
. oh yeah stroke of genius and imagination, installing seats we already owned, at a time we were selling out most games
  • Been happy to engage with fans when approached directly (apparently, never bothered trying it myself beyond a cordial "hello" when passing him on the concourse.)
Happy to engage in fans he can wrap round his little finger. The Trust were cast aside from day one
  • Overseen a big increase in the community work done
funded by that £1m grant(s)
  • Subsidised the club with director loans to keep us going
sorry this shows the opposite of well run, we have lost an average of £1m per year, with NOTHING to show for it whatsoever
  • Continued to slog through the red tape with the council for the redevelopment work
NBC have said nothing stopping him developing. he has constantly  moved the goal posts and kicked it down the road. He stabbed them in the back twice and then expects them to bend over and take a
[/list]

If by "done an Exeter" you mean gone into fan ownership, we probably wouldn't have been able to afford/attract Rob Page in the first place and if we had, with the side he assembled we'd have been as screwed as we were but unable to even attempt to buy our way out of the mess he'd created during the January transfer window (which we did try to do, another good thing KT did, even if it didn't work out). No I was actually just thinking about the about of money and upheaval we have suffered by keep changing managers and just financially where would we be, let alone league position, especially if that was coupled with a plan to develop our own players in that time

If that money had gone into infrastructure projects? You have noticed we're losing money, right? If we hadn't spent the money on paying people off and trying to bail our way out of trouble, it still wouldn't have been available to invest in infrastructure projects because, in all likelihood, it would be needed to prop the club up (in the absence of director loans coming in). Think you have this backwards, I am talking of having a longer term plan, we keep trying a very very short term plan of scrapping together a team, that arguable gets worse every season, in fact thinking about it, not sure many would argue that our team has got worse each season. Large sums of money is spent on paying off contracts of managers, staff and players then employing new managers, staff and players and then rinse and repeat. If we cut our playing budget by £100k each year (2 so reserve players salaries), We could have had better catering or big screen or club shop or gym equipment or spas / recovery. Most of that we would have for the next season and the next etc.

Thanks BOTN, you are the first one to ever reply and actually try to explain what KT has done for my football club. My replies, which I don't expect you will like are above.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 17:37:19 pm
Exeter appointed Tisdale in 2006. Not including that seasons they spent 2 seasons in the conference, 3 of them in League 1 and 7 in League 2.
In the same time we've spent 5 years in League 1 and 7 in League 2

Not sure infrastructure wise or playing level its made any difference sticking with him.
Also not sure if Page was just an example but I suggest watching the highlights back from P*sh away!


Yes and we have accrued debts in excess of £25m in that time for 2 extra years of struggle in League 1, whilst Exeter have zero debt and built 2 new stands.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 22, 2021, 17:43:48 pm
Yes and we have accrued debts in excess of £25m in that time for 2 extra years of struggle in League 1, whilst Exeter have zero debt and built 2 new stands.
https://www.devonlive.com/sport/football/football-news/exeter-city-post-700000-loss-3982276


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 22, 2021, 18:07:07 pm
https://www.devonlive.com/sport/football/football-news/exeter-city-post-700000-loss-3982276

also from that report....

"But while for the year ending June 30, 2019, the club posted an operating loss of £702,000, this compares favourably to the £1.33m budgeted loss that the club had anticipated."

"The balance sheet shows that the club maintains its planned positive cash position with current retained earnings almost £2m, with the clubís budgeting approach to release a proportion of previously earned transfer income over successive seasons after that income is received."

A look at the accounts filed at Companies house shows the following also....

Cash at bank and in hand: ECFC = £1.27m, NTFC £513k
Creditors falling due within one year: ECFC = £2.202m, NTFC £7.596m
Net Assets = ECFC £1.652m as opposed to net Liabilities for NTFC of £4.66m
Trade Creditors: ECFC £123k, NTFC £345k
Amount of tax and Social security owed: ECFC £344k, NTFC £562k
Number of employees: ECFC 214, NTFC 287

One club's accounts has the following statement "The financial statements indicate that the company has insufficient cash reserves to continue trading without securing additional funding" and one clubs accounts show nothing of the sort.

Bigger picture.......!!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 22, 2021, 18:14:56 pm
also from that report....

"But while for the year ending June 30, 2019, the club posted an operating loss of £702,000, this compares favourably to the £1.33m budgeted loss that the club had anticipated."

"The balance sheet shows that the club maintains its planned positive cash position with current retained earnings almost £2m, with the clubís budgeting approach to release a proportion of previously earned transfer income over successive seasons after that income is received."

A look at the accounts filed at Companies house shows the following also....

Cash at bank and in hand: ECFC = £1.27m, NTFC £513k
Creditors falling due within one year: ECFC = £2.202m, NTFC £7.596m
Net Assets = ECFC £1.652m as opposed to net Liabilities for NTFC of £4.66m
Trade Creditors: ECFC £123k, NTFC £345k
Amount of tax and Social security owed: ECFC £344k, NTFC £562k
Number of employees: ECFC 214, NTFC 287

One club's accounts has the following statement "The financial statements indicate that the company has insufficient cash reserves to continue trading without securing additional funding" and one clubs accounts show nothing of the sort.

Bigger picture.......!!

Also from the report.
The overall improved performance against budget was driven by the sale of striker Jayden Stockley to Preston North End in January 2019 for a fee believed to be in the region of £750,000, with a small proportion of the funds received being reinvested within the playing costs.
In a joint statement Julian Tagg, chairman and director of football at Exeter City FC, and Nick Hawker, chair of the Supportersí Trust said: "Both financial years were affected dramatically by transfer activity. Income from transfers allows us to continue investment in our playing squad, however, the board is very much aware that this level of investment may not always be possible and longer-term financial planning is in place for a number of scenarios.
Even bigger picture. 😉


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 22, 2021, 18:28:39 pm
Also from the report.
The overall improved performance against budget was driven by the sale of striker Jayden Stockley to Preston North End in January 2019 for a fee believed to be in the region of £750,000, with a small proportion of the funds received being reinvested within the playing costs.
In a joint statement Julian Tagg, chairman and director of football at Exeter City FC, and Nick Hawker, chair of the Supportersí Trust said: "Both financial years were affected dramatically by transfer activity. Income from transfers allows us to continue investment in our playing squad, however, the board is very much aware that this level of investment may not always be possible and longer-term financial planning is in place for a number of scenarios.
Even bigger picture. 😉
whilst this is a bit tongue in cheek GPC and trying to prove the point on why selective commentary was avoided from the Devon Live report in the first instance, what is the comparative book value between the clubs as another basis for evaluation?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 22, 2021, 18:36:50 pm
whilst this is a bit tongue in cheek GPC and trying to prove the point on why selective commentary was avoided from the Devon Live report in the first instance, what is the comparative book value between the clubs as another basis for evaluation?

What was the basis for you posting the £700k loss article in the first place?

On the face of it, Exeter seem to be in less debt and overall in a healthier position than we are. They also own their ground and other pitches, whereas we list the East Stand on OUR books as an asset under construction valued at £2.5m!! One in the eye for those who say by building the East Stand we are enhancing the Councils asset if the Club is actually listing the East Stand as IT's asset.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 22, 2021, 18:47:51 pm
What was the basis for you posting the £700k loss article in the first place?

On the face of it, Exeter seem to be in less debt and overall in a healthier position than we are. They also own their ground and other pitches, whereas we list the East Stand on OUR books as an asset under construction valued at £2.5m!! One in the eye for those who say by building the East Stand we are enhancing the Councils asset if the Club is actually listing the East Stand as IT's asset.
The basis was that Exeter were held up as an example of success when they posted a 700k loss even after selling a player for 750k all pre Covid. The point I am trying to make is that other examples are held up as comparatives to berate our owners when they are not quite the shining examples they are made out to be. However, when a figure that may be seen as a positive such as the book value is mentioned, it is immediately slammed with negative caveats. The problem with this approach is that people may start to feel they are being manipulated and any initiative stalls as a result. My view is that balanced impartial judgment rather than hysterical outbursts tends to have more of an impact, not that I am accusing you of that. I agree that not too much should be read into the book value comparison by the way. However, I would also say the same about many of the accusations that are levelled at the club too.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 22, 2021, 19:04:08 pm
Again playing devils advocate, can anyone explain to me why KT & DB would take the payment from 5U Sport and incur a 50% personal tax liability when they could have paid it off against the loans and incurred no tax liability at all? Forget the offshore thing, they are taxed on global income in their country of residence so unless they are committing tax fraud (good luck with that in the UAE) then they have just chucked 3 million down the toilet. Come up with a logical explanation for that and the argument might get a bit more convincing.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 22, 2021, 19:07:59 pm
We got £1m+ for Goode. We need the structure to do more of that business and weíd have more chance of breaking even/into profit.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 22, 2021, 19:52:59 pm
Again playing devils advocate, can anyone explain to me why KT & DB would take the payment from 5U Sport and incur a 50% personal tax liability when they could have paid it off against the loans and incurred no tax liability at all? Forget the offshore thing, they are taxed on global income in their country of residence so unless they are committing tax fraud (good luck with that in the UAE) then they have just chucked 3 million down the toilet. Come up with a logical explanation for that and the argument might get a bit more convincing.

Belle-de-Jour took the bulk of the payment from 5USports, a sum of £4.342m. Belle-De-Jour, being a British Virgin Islands registered company would pay no tax on this money.
KT and DB each received personally £1.189m for their share of NT Ventures

DB is an expat based in Dubai and as such pays no personal tax income as he meets the criteria to be classed as a tax resident. If he earned money in Dubai but was tax resident in the UK he would have a liability but not the other way round.

KT....well i'm not aware of which country he classes as his residence for tax purposes.

Bottom line is that the bulk of the money went offshore....theres no getting away from that Melly, and as a result it is not liable to taxation. Besides that.....B-D-J has now loaned NTFC the sum of £4.84m (according to the latest filed accounts)...... I wonder where they got that from!

2017 accounts showed no money loaned by BDJ to NTFC  (£0)
2018 accounts showed £2.563m loaned by BDJ to NTFC (£2.563m)
2019 accounts showed £1.745m loaned by BDJ to NTFC (cumulative £4.308m)
2020 accounts showed £532k loaned by BDJ to NTFC (cumulative £4.84m)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 22, 2021, 20:17:15 pm
GPC, So what are you saying they have done wrong ?
If you have proof of wrong doing please report it to correct authorities.
If there is no irregularities at all, or no wrong doings that can be reported, please stop.

Just put up or shut up.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 22, 2021, 20:27:37 pm
GPC, So what are you saying they have done wrong ?
If you have proof of wrong doing please report it to correct authorities.
If there is no irregularities at all, or no wrong doings that can be reported, please stop.

Just put up or shut up.



Youíre rightÖ.when another poster puts a post up asking for a logical explanation I just wonít answer next time.

Thatís me told!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 20:43:53 pm
GPC, So what are you saying they have done wrong ?
If you have proof of wrong doing please report it to correct authorities.
If there is no irregularities at all, or no wrong doings that can be reported, please stop.

Just put up or shut up.



so as long as the owners don't do anything illegal they are free to do whatever they want Tcobb?  So I will copy and paste your above post and then reply back to every post of yours against the Trust, as I know they haven't done anything illegal or even immoral


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 22, 2021, 20:44:12 pm
GPC, So what are you saying they have done wrong ?
If you have proof of wrong doing please report it to correct authorities.
If there is no irregularities at all, or no wrong doings that can be reported, please stop.

Just put up or shut up.


A reply like yours seems to have become the standard for those antagonistic towards the Trust.
Why do you think there is any message beyond the information provided?
I for one am glad of this kind of post from any poster. They help me form an opinion I otherwise couldn't reach.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 22, 2021, 20:52:07 pm
one key factor re Exeter is that they achieved that with a local population HALF of ours

perhaps their fans are more loyal, generous, hardworking and ambitious than ours !!!!!!



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 22, 2021, 20:53:26 pm
I suppose really the Cardozas did nothing illegal either.....they and the council drew up a loan agreement and they kept going to the Council when they wanted to draw down some money....and then the Council gave it to them.

Nothing illegal there!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 22, 2021, 20:53:38 pm
My reply is aimed at those who just repeat the same "facts" as they see them. If they really think the Club or the owners are/have done something illegal,  then report it. Doesn't matter if these people are the Trust, Trust members or even people who have no connection to the Trust at all.  
Just stop going round in circles regurgitating the same stuff day after day, it's not achieving anything.  Either put your case of wrong doing to the authorities to deal with how they see fit, or just shut up.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 22, 2021, 21:11:49 pm
My reply is aimed at those who just repeat the same "facts" as they see them. If they really think the Club or the owners are/have done something illegal,  then report it. Doesn't matter if these people are the Trust, Trust members or even people who have no connection to the Trust at all.  
Just stop going round in circles regurgitating the same stuff day after day, it's not achieving anything.  Either put your case of wrong doing to the authorities to deal with how they see fit, or just shut up.

By the same token then I should have posted nothing about what the Cardozas were doing? It wasn't illegal after all!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 22, 2021, 21:23:28 pm
By the same token you can't accuse people of wrong doing with out proof. If you think something  is wrong go to the FA.,EFL, Council, Police etc  and put your case forward, show them your evidence.  If you can't do this, and you whole argument is based on a feeling what the hell are you hoping to achieve ?  it looks to the world that you are trying to undermine the stability at the Club, for what cause, I don't know.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 22, 2021, 21:24:27 pm
My reply is aimed at those who just repeat the same "facts" as they see them. If they really think the Club or the owners are/have done something illegal,  then report it. Doesn't matter if these people are the Trust, Trust members or even people who have no connection to the Trust at all.  
Just stop going round in circles regurgitating the same stuff day after day, it's not achieving anything.  Either put your case of wrong doing to the authorities to deal with how they see fit, or just shut up.


Every single thread on here goes round and round in circles, that is the nature of it. Everyone has their opinion and can only repeat it in slightly different ways. 'I can't sleep cos my bed's on fire.'


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 22, 2021, 21:37:02 pm
By the same token you can't accuse people of wrong doing with out proof. If you think something  is wrong go to the FA.,EFL, Council, Police etc  and put your case forward, show them your evidence.  If you can't do this, and you whole argument is based on a feeling what the hell are you hoping to achieve ?  it looks to the world that you are trying to undermine the stability at the Club, for what cause, I don't know.

Define "wrongdoing"...because your definition might be different to mine. You seem to be coming at this from an "if its legal its ok" perspective. I might be looking at it from a "it may be legal but its morally wrong" perspective.

If you think that receiving £6.68m from a minor Chinese outfit that nobody had heard of is ok, and now loading an amount roughly the same onto the books of Northampton Town FC by way of "director loans" which will presumably be paid back by the sale of Council land leased to another obscure body by the name of Country Developments Northampton Limited is all good then fair play to you!

I personally am sick of the Football Club playing second fiddle to a prospective land deal...... we had that under the Cardoza stewardship, and we have it again now under the expat stewardship.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 22, 2021, 21:41:57 pm
So what is your objective in going over it time after time, what end game are you looking at and hoping to achieve? What do you want the owners of Northampton Town FC to do ?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 22, 2021, 21:56:35 pm
So what is your objective in going over it time after time, what end game are you looking at and hoping to achieve? What do you want the owners of Northampton Town FC to do ?

Who's gone over it "time after time"? I think i've mentioned it and laid it out like that all of twice.

End game? I just make people aware of the facts and my findings, just as I did in the months leading up to the Cardoza ending. I like that sort of stuff, digging and trying to piece together the evidence.

I'm not naÔve enough to think I can personally achieve anything other than the above.

Me personally? I want the owners of Northampton Town FC to sell up and for us to be owned and run by someone who's primary focus is Northampton Town FC, not on the 22 acres of contaminated land that lies next door.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 22, 2021, 22:28:25 pm
Do you really think you are setting yourself a reasonable and achievable objective to bring the end result you desire ?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 22, 2021, 22:31:13 pm
Do you really think you are setting yourself a reasonable and achievable objective to bring the end result you desire ?
What else can the trust do?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on July 22, 2021, 22:46:33 pm
Set reasonable and achievable objectives.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 22, 2021, 22:57:28 pm
Set reasonable and achievable objectives.
You still happy with carboots then?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 22, 2021, 23:05:35 pm
I suppose really the Cardozas did nothing illegal either.....they and the council drew up a loan agreement and they kept going to the Council when they wanted to draw down some money....and then the Council gave it to them.

Nothing illegal there!

It probably wasn't illegal. If it was it clearly wasn't that serious to be walking the streets 6 years later. We do love a wrong 'un.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 22, 2021, 23:19:00 pm
Belle-de-Jour took the bulk of the payment from 5USports, a sum of £4.342m. Belle-De-Jour, being a British Virgin Islands registered company would pay no tax on this money.
KT and DB each received personally £1.189m for their share of NT Ventures

DB is an expat based in Dubai and as such pays no personal tax income as he meets the criteria to be classed as a tax resident. If he earned money in Dubai but was tax resident in the UK he would have a liability but not the other way round.

KT....well i'm not aware of which country he classes as his residence for tax purposes.

Bottom line is that the bulk of the money went offshore....theres no getting away from that Melly, and as a result it is not liable to taxation. Besides that.....B-D-J has now loaned NTFC the sum of £4.84m (according to the latest filed accounts)...... I wonder where they got that from!

2017 accounts showed no money loaned by BDJ to NTFC  (£0)
2018 accounts showed £2.563m loaned by BDJ to NTFC (£2.563m)
2019 accounts showed £1.745m loaned by BDJ to NTFC (cumulative £4.308m)
2020 accounts showed £532k loaned by BDJ to NTFC (cumulative £4.84m)
  my understanding was that you had to be resident in Dubai for a given period and meet a number of conditions to achieve personal tax free status but possible. Kelvin Thomas would come under US or possibly UK dependant on days residing in each, but would cop for personal liability either way. The fact the money was paid off shore is irrelevant. For example I have to declare my global income. It matters not one jot that the money may have been earned in the UK and stays in a UK bank account and has never seen Australia. It doesnít matter where that money is, BVI or Timbuktu. Of course I can choose not to declare it, but given there are global transparency agreements between tax offices thatís a massive risk. All it would take would be 5U Sport to make a claim and KT would be screwed. Thatís why it doesnít make any sense to me.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 22, 2021, 23:37:30 pm
Well done MC.

What a shame that transparency is in such short supply on all fronts. Itís like choosing which disease youíd like to die from most.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 22, 2021, 23:48:18 pm
I should also point out that when any money over a certain amount gets transferred into my AU bank account from overseas there is a vehicle for the banks to report the transaction to the ATO. This is pretty much a global standard and is in place to combat money laundering. This off shore business is painted as some sort of get out of obligation free card but it doesnít work on a personal basis. If you base a company in a country off shore then you can get around corporation tax liability, but unless you live there on a personal taxation level itís fairly pointless these days.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 23, 2021, 00:03:40 am
I should also point out that when any money over a certain amount gets transferred into my AU bank account from overseas there is a vehicle for the banks to report the transaction to the ATO. This is pretty much a global standard and is in place to combat money laundering. This off shore business is painted as some sort of get out of obligation free card but it doesnít work on a personal basis. If you base a company in a country off shore then you can get around corporation tax liability, but unless you live there on a personal taxation level itís fairly pointless these days.

Do you believe that the same vehicle is in place on the British Virgin Isles? If a large amount of money came in from China who would report it to whom?

BDJ is wholly owned by David Bower.....the vast majority of the 5U money went to him directly or indirectly. Kelvin Thomas is a bit part player.

Still can't work out why the money went to BDJ though as at the time of the sale to 5U Northampton Town FC were majority owned by UK registered Northampton Town Ventures, who in turn were majority owned by UK registered Fantastical Limited.

Fantastical though registered no transactions in any financial year and filed dormant company accounts for the years in which the transactions are reported to have taken place.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 23, 2021, 00:34:50 am
Do you believe that the same vehicle is in place on the British Virgin Isles? If a large amount of money came in from China who would report it to whom?

BDJ is wholly owned by David Bower.....the vast majority of the 5U money went to him directly or indirectly. Kelvin Thomas is a bit part player.

Still can't work out why the money went to BDJ though as at the time of the sale to 5U Northampton Town FC were majority owned by UK registered Northampton Town Ventures, who in turn were majority owned by UK registered Fantastical Limited.

Fantastical though registered no transactions in any financial year and filed dormant company accounts for the years in which the transactions are reported to have taken place.
The point is GPC is that what goes on in the BVI is irrelevant. I have a legal obligation to declare global income on a personal level and if I donít I am guilty of tax evasion. In my case if I subsequently transfer the money into my AU bank account then that is automatically reported to the ATO. They will then want to know where it came from and when I received it, and I better be squeaky clean. Additionally the ATO are free to contact the HMRC and due to the transparency agreement they will be told everything. My view is that in their shoes I would also be living with the risk that 5U Sport go public and I may be sitting there with an income I havenít declared. I am then in the position of being on what has been described to me as "the roller coaster in hell". What you are saying is all possible GPC, I am just pointing out the flaws and risks as I see it with some of the claims. I also find it particularly annoying as from personal experience I know what a crock of sh1t these theories about dodging tax liability between countries can be.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 23, 2021, 08:06:55 am
Do you believe that the same vehicle is in place on the British Virgin Isles? If a large amount of money came in from China who would report it to whom?

BDJ is wholly owned by David Bower.....the vast majority of the 5U money went to him directly or indirectly. Kelvin Thomas is a bit part player.

Still can't work out why the money went to BDJ though as at the time of the sale to 5U Northampton Town FC were majority owned by UK registered Northampton Town Ventures, who in turn were majority owned by UK registered Fantastical Limited.

Fantastical though registered no transactions in any financial year and filed dormant company accounts for the years in which the transactions are reported to have taken place.

GPC, it looks like you have got some very specific information to hand, and are concerned about how the monies have been received and moved around.

Report it to the HMRC and let them get on with investigating it if they see fit. Morally, your compass will then hopefully be reset. You will have done your job.

The chips will fall where they deserve to land, I'm sure.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 23, 2021, 08:15:31 am
  my understanding was that you had to be resident in Dubai for a given period and meet a number of conditions to achieve personal tax free status but possible. Kelvin Thomas would come under US or possibly UK dependant on days residing in each, but would cop for personal liability either way. The fact the money was paid off shore is irrelevant. For example I have to declare my global income. It matters not one jot that the money may have been earned in the UK and stays in a UK bank account and has never seen Australia. It doesnít matter where that money is, BVI or Timbuktu. Of course I can choose not to declare it, but given there are global transparency agreements between tax offices thatís a massive risk. All it would take would be 5U Sport to make a claim and KT would be screwed. Thatís why it doesnít make any sense to me.

For someone who purports to be an international ty**** and cannot miss an opportunity to broadcast the fact, you really are quite dim. I guess your your Kojee Bear piggybank must be empty.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 23, 2021, 08:30:05 am
  my understanding was that you had to be resident in Dubai for a given period and meet a number of conditions to achieve personal tax free status but possible. Kelvin Thomas would come under US or possibly UK dependant on days residing in each, but would cop for personal liability either way. The fact the money was paid off shore is irrelevant. For example I have to declare my global income. It matters not one jot that the money may have been earned in the UK and stays in a UK bank account and has never seen Australia. It doesnít matter where that money is, BVI or Timbuktu. Of course I can choose not to declare it, but given there are global transparency agreements between tax offices thatís a massive risk. All it would take would be 5U Sport to make a claim and KT would be screwed. Thatís why it doesnít make any sense to me.
Wonder how long DB has been in Dubai and what his residency status is? From what you suggest, that will make quite a large difference to the overall picture.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 23, 2021, 08:35:51 am
For someone who purports to be an international ty**** and cannot miss an opportunity to broadcast the fact, you really are quite dim. I guess your your Kojee Bear piggybank must be empty.
As someone who has no knowledge of how international money transfers, tax, etc works, MC posts are interesting, but potentially only one side / perspective. I assume from your post you have experience to the contrary, could you please share so that we could have a balanced view / balanced inputs?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 23, 2021, 08:40:12 am
  my understanding was that you had to be resident in Dubai for a given period and meet a number of conditions to achieve personal tax free status but possible. Kelvin Thomas would come under US or possibly UK dependant on days residing in each, but would cop for personal liability either way. The fact the money was paid off shore is irrelevant. For example I have to declare my global income. It matters not one jot that the money may have been earned in the UK and stays in a UK bank account and has never seen Australia. It doesnít matter where that money is, BVI or Timbuktu. Of course I can choose not to declare it, but given there are global transparency agreements between tax offices thatís a massive risk. All it would take would be 5U Sport to make a claim and KT would be screwed. Thatís why it doesnít make any sense to me.
So why would the majority of the money be paid into the BVI?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 23, 2021, 08:43:27 am
So why would the majority of the money be paid into the BVI?
Is the answer, because he goes there a lot on holiday?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 23, 2021, 09:07:31 am
Money from other clubs never used for its purpose
10k in a carrier bag
Accounts not submitted on time
Money from the Chinese
Off shore accounts
Bushey boys
Houses all over the place
Party donations
Secret meetings all around

Feel free to add anything Iíve missedÖ.

Theyíre all at itÖÖ.  ;D ;D

ďYou were only supposed to blow the bleeding doors offĒ.

**** EM ALL
**** EM ALL
THE TRUST THE CLUB ET ALL

WE ARE THE COBBLERS AND WE ARE THE BEST
WE ARE THE COBBLERS SO **** ALL THE REST

No good deed goes unpunished.. 😀😀




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 09:21:46 am
Thanks BOTN, you are the first one to ever reply and actually try to explain what KT has done for my football club. My replies, which I don't expect you will like are above.

To be honest, random, I could say I once saw KT help a disabled child get back into a wheelchair they'd fallen out of and you'd criticise him for not making the child walk again.

On a wider note, I really don't understand the fixation some people have with our owner's tax status. If they aren't breaking any laws, and I've seen nothing to suggest they have, then how they manage their finances is their own business and has no impact on our club whatsoever.




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 23, 2021, 09:42:26 am
To be honest, random, I could say I once saw KT help a disabled child get back into a wheelchair they'd fallen out of and you'd criticise him for not making the child walk again.

On a wider note, I really don't understand the fixation some people have with our owner's tax status. If they aren't breaking any laws, and I've seen nothing to suggest they have, then how they manage their finances is their own business and has no impact on our club whatsoever.




Reading back on GPCs posts yesterday, I think it is being suggested that DB personally massively benefitted from the Chinese, but has then loaded an identical amount of debt onto the club over three financial years (I assume without the money actually being spent by NTFC)?

So does that qualify for tax evasion if true / remotely possible to do?

Would have been picked up by the clubs auditors when checking the accounts I would have thought, but you never know?

If that is indeed the scenario, it does affect the club?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 09:43:50 am
Belle-de-Jour took the bulk of the payment from 5USports, a sum of £4.342m. Belle-De-Jour, being a British Virgin Islands registered company would pay no tax on this money.
KT and DB each received personally £1.189m for their share of NT Ventures

GPC, please could you share your source for this info? Not suggesting it isn't accurate, would just like to take a look myself.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 23, 2021, 09:51:48 am
To be honest, random, I could say I once saw KT help a disabled child get back into a wheelchair they'd fallen out of and you'd criticise him for not making the child walk again.

On a wider note, I really don't understand the fixation some people have with our owner's tax status. If they aren't breaking any laws, and I've seen nothing to suggest they have, then how they manage their finances is their own business and has no impact on our club whatsoever.



[/quoteIf KT did make the child walk again, who do you think he would blame for the child falling out of the wheelchair?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 23, 2021, 09:53:43 am
To be honest, random, I could say I once saw KT help a disabled child get back into a wheelchair they'd fallen out of and you'd criticise him for not making the child walk again.

On a wider note, I really don't understand the fixation some people have with our owner's tax status. If they aren't breaking any laws, and I've seen nothing to suggest they have, then how they manage their finances is their own business and has no impact on our club whatsoever.



Mate thatís a ridiculous statement, they have loaded the club with a massive debt, talk about cake and eat it!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 10:00:54 am
Reading back on GPCs posts yesterday, I think it is being suggested that DB personally massively benefitted from the Chinese, but has then loaded an identical amount of debt onto the club over three financial years (I assume without the money actually being spent by NTFC)?

So does that qualify for tax evasion if true / remotely possible to do?

Would have been picked up by the clubs auditors when checking the accounts I would have thought, but you never know?

If that is indeed the scenario, it does affect the club?



I don't think the two are directly related. 5U bought the shares in the club from KT and DB (with whatever shell companies involved along the way) so that is their money. If the money they've "loaned" the club is from that pot or from elsewhere is a bit of a moot point.

It's still unclear if the money from 5U was kept by any of the parties though. From the Trust statement the other week:

Quote
March 2018

KT announced that 5USports had departed Ventures and NTFC as directors and that the shares had been ďreacquiredĒ, owing to the failure of 5USports to come up with working capital for the football club. Unannounced, ultimate control and ownership of NTFC was transferred to Belle de Jour Ltd.

It is not known whether a payment was made, and if so the amount paid, for reacquiring the shares.

The club/KT&DB could clear this up very easily, but frankly I don't see why they should as they are under no obligation to publicly discuss their personal finances.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 10:06:54 am
BOTN - this is where I'm at.
I made the post below a couple of weeks ago and didn't see any responses that moved the dial. In fact GPC's post from yesterday is the first time I've read anything that even half addresses any of these points which is why I asked for his source so I could try to do some digging myself.

1. None of us know how much of the agreed consideration KT & DB actually received for their shares and/or how much of that was cash and/or how much of it was returned when the whole 5USport thing fell over. Correct me if I'm wrong?
2. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, that is between them and 5USport. You & I may not like it, but that alone doesn't mean anyone has done anything wrong
3. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, they have to-date ploughed £6-7m into the club's running costs, so they are at best back where they started and at worst £6-7m down on the deal as things stand


To clarify, I am not on either side in this debate but I'm getting so tired of the constant inference that someone is up to something at worst illegal, at best very shady, with no reliable evidence to back it up.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 10:08:26 am
BOTN, thats the level you have stooped to to defend our owners - disabled children WOW

Re our club / the owners - we are £7m in debt, back in League 2 without a good squad, about to lose 20m land asset & half the running track, and the ground falling apart

Do you think it is acceptable that they had plans for over 2 years on the East but did not show or mention them to the fans UNTIL some not good news comes out about them receiving £6.8m for selling the club, again without telling anyone?

You really think that is acceptable from the owners of your football club?

Also please reply to my answers from your support of our owners previously


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 23, 2021, 10:14:19 am
Just a thought on this and the anger seems to be that the owners potentially made the same amount from 5U that the club is currently showing as debt through loans.

So you have two choices. You can either transfer the £6m to the club and clear the debt. That will undoubtedly make all the fans happy.
Or you keep the club owing £6m, then when you then come to sell the club (which they have made clear they are open to) you can then try to get the new owners to pay you the £6m and keep the £6m as profit. Or you keep the £6m in a rainy day account accumulating a nice bit of interest and then use it to clear the loans on the day of sale.

Im sure there are complex reasons why its not as simple as that. But essentially our owners have 2 bank accounts. One at -£6m, one at +£6m.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 23, 2021, 10:14:35 am
I don't think the two are directly related. 5U bought the shares in the club from KT and DB (with whatever shell companies involved along the way) so that is their money. If the money they've "loaned" the club is from that pot or from elsewhere is a bit of a moot point.

It's still unclear if the money from 5U was kept by any of the parties though. From the Trust statement the other week:

The club/KT&DB could clear this up very easily, but frankly I don't see why they should as they are under no obligation to publicly discuss their personal finances.


If I am honest, this is my personal view too, and I think MC and a few others feel this way? If the money has needed to be spent (whether it represents good value or otherwise?) then the "debt" loaded on the club is only relevant to DB and KT if they can't recoup at point of sale.

I think the question is whether the debt has been loaded on falsely though, to hide the monies that were received from the Chinese?

GPC / Manny, am I reading between the lines correctly here from your viewpoints?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 10:14:54 am
BOTN - this is where I'm at.
I made the post below a couple of weeks ago and didn't see any responses that moved the dial. In fact GPC's post from yesterday is the first time I've read anything that even half addresses any of these points which is why I asked for his source so I could try to do some digging myself.

1. None of us know how much of the agreed consideration KT & DB actually received for their shares and/or how much of that was cash and/or how much of it was returned when the whole 5USport thing fell over. Correct me if I'm wrong?
2. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, that is between them and 5USport. You & I may not like it, but that alone doesn't mean anyone has done anything wrong
3. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, they have to-date ploughed £6-7m into the club's running costs, so they are at best back where they started and at worst £6-7m down on the deal as things stand



So you do you trust owners who sell the football club to overseas investors but don't actually tell anyone?

FFS its not about them doing anything legally wrong - it is morally and also just another example of their attitude towards the supporters of NTFC.





Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 23, 2021, 10:17:35 am
So you do you trust owners who sell the football club to overseas investors but don't actually tell anyone?

FFS its not about them doing anything legally wrong - it is morally and also just another example of their attitude towards the supporters of NTFC.


I'm possibly going to show my stupidity / ignorance here, but didnt we know he had sold it to overseas investors?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 10:20:15 am
So you do you trust owners who sell the football club to overseas investors but don't actually tell anyone?

FFS its not about them doing anything legally wrong - it is morally and also just another example of their attitude towards the supporters of NTFC.


By overseas investors, do you mean 5U? By not telling anyone, do you mean not telling anyone in advance? These are genuine questions - the answers will help me understand where you're coming from


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 10:20:37 am
Its not just where we are now, it's where we are heading in the future that worries me and the Trust

Every single year passes with them in control of our club the following happens

1. The team gets worse
2. The finances gets worse
3. The relationship with the fans gets worse
4. The condition of the ground gets worse
5. The communication from the owners gets worse






Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 23, 2021, 10:22:16 am
Its not just where we are now, it's where we are heading in the future that worries me and the Trust

Every single year passes with them in control of our club the following happens

1. The team gets worse - Not true
2. The finances gets worse - True to a certain extent
3. The relationship with the fans gets worse - not true
4. The condition of the ground gets worse - true
5. The communication from the owners gets worse - not true (its always been pretty lacking)




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 10:33:38 am
BOTN, thats the level you have stooped to to defend our owners - disabled children WOW
I picked an act that no rational person could possibly take offence at, namely helping a disabled child back into a wheelchair. I'm in no way mocking disabled children, but if you want to take offence on behalf of a hypothetical illustration then be my guest.
Re our club / the owners - we are £7m in debt, back in League 2 without a good squad, about to lose 20m land asset & half the running track, and the ground falling apart

Do you think it is acceptable that they had plans for over 2 years on the East but did not show or mention them to the fans UNTIL some not good news comes out about them receiving £6.8m for selling the club, again without telling anyone?
Yes. As much as some people don't like it, NTFC is their business to develop as and when they choose. Or not to develop if they choose! As supporters we like to say it's "our" club and feel some sense of entitlement, but at the end of the day we are just interested parties. We'd all like the situation resolved as soon as possible and when you or I find ourselves in a position to buy the club and run it ourselves, it will then become our prerogative to do so. Until then, it's up to the current owners.
You really think that is acceptable from the owners of your football club?
Erm, yes.
Also please reply to my answers from your support of our owners previously
No. I've made my point of view quite clear and, like our owners, I am under no obligation to justify myself to you.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 10:37:14 am
Hi Woody & Parrot,

No they said it was a partnership and they sold some shares (60%) in one of the controlling companies of NTFC. They actually then sold / transferred the other 40%, meaning the Chinese owned and controlled our football club. No announcement was made, I don't know why, I expect there was some crossover of contracts and the Chinese government stopping overseas investment. As there was another £1.2m payment to go to the football from the Chinese as part of the deal, the oblingations were not met. DB was a very clever lawyer so I expect that the contracts read that if the money was not paid they would be in breach of contract and DB could re-acquire the shares. I know it sounds incredible that they would have returned the money but thats not how business contracts work, especially bearing in mind, in one corner a experienced, shrewd lawyer, one corner a very small business (and people) with a tiny business having accesses to £6.8m to throw around and then in the other corner - off shore accounts and businesses and finally in the other corner, possible money laundering and illegal activities.

We have total evidence of the £6.8m payments and the re-acquirement of the shares, we dont know how a small company would be willing and able to pay £6.8m for a club that the owners brought for £1 2 years earlier, we don't know why KT / DB have spoke about all the details of the transactions etc, we don't know why the Chinese hasn't broken KT legs  ;D (they did make a challenge, so would suggest they not happy)  Again it is the whole point, after DC, fans still seem to not worry about iffy dealing by our owners, why the football rots arounds them as the owners work on asset striping the football, all in the name of development


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 10:40:09 am
sorry woody, got on my soapbox in the last post and didn't address your post

I agree that normally the debts loaded to the club are not a big issue as most of the time the owners write them off when they walk away

However this is not the case here as they want to use the profit from the sale of the 22 acres of land to pay off this debt. So no it's not good deal or value for NTFC.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 10:46:00 am


so how often do you post on the Sainsbury's / Next / B&M / McDonalds etc fans forum?

Do you get into debate with other customers about the actions of their board members and owners?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: everbrite on July 23, 2021, 10:46:44 am
sorry woody, got on my soapbox in the last post and didn't address your post

I agree that normally the debts loaded to the club are not a big issue as most of the time the owners write them off when they walk away

However this is not the case here as they want to use the profit from the sale of the 22 acres of land to pay off this debt. So no it's not good deal or value for NTFC.



Random - is your background, Legal, HMRC or Financial expertise?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 23, 2021, 10:55:44 am
Hi Woody & Parrot,

No they said it was a partnership and they sold some shares (60%) in one of the controlling companies of NTFC. They actually then sold / transferred the other 40%, meaning the Chinese owned and controlled our football club. No announcement was made, I don't know why, I expect there was some crossover of contracts and the Chinese government stopping overseas investment. As there was another £1.2m payment to go to the football from the Chinese as part of the deal, the oblingations were not met. DB was a very clever lawyer so I expect that the contracts read that if the money was not paid they would be in breach of contract and DB could re-acquire the shares. I know it sounds incredible that they would have returned the money but thats not how business contracts work, especially bearing in mind, in one corner a experienced, shrewd lawyer, one corner a very small business (and people) with a tiny business having accesses to £6.8m to throw around and then in the other corner - off shore accounts and businesses and finally in the other corner, possible money laundering and illegal activities.

We have total evidence of the £6.8m payments and the re-acquirement of the shares, we dont know how a small company would be willing and able to pay £6.8m for a club that the owners brought for £1 2 years earlier, we don't know why KT / DB have spoke about all the details of the transactions etc, we don't know why the Chinese hasn't broken KT legs  ;D (they did make a challenge, so would suggest they not happy)  Again it is the whole point, after DC, fans still seem to not worry about iffy dealing by our owners, why the football rots arounds them as the owners work on asset striping the football, all in the name of development
Random, appreciating your replies, I understand your perspective on the finances, I just happen to disagree, but no issues with that.

It is strange that they sold the other 40% or were in the process of without notification. My optimistic side would hope they planned to announce when it was all finalised and then didn't when it fell through. We will never know.

However, I was always under the impression that although KT would stay on as chairman it would have been 5U who had control over the club. My assumption was then that overtime he would leave and they would appoint someone themselves who would be based in the UK to oversee things.

This is from a report on Reuteurs.... ďThey do have the majority share. You could call it investment or you can call it a takeover. I wouldnít necessarily understand the difference,Ē Thomas told BBC


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 10:58:46 am
Hi Woody & Parrot,

No they said it was a partnership and they sold some shares (60%) in one of the controlling companies of NTFC. They actually then sold / transferred the other 40%, meaning the Chinese owned and controlled our football club. No announcement was made, I don't know why, I expect there was some crossover of contracts and the Chinese government stopping overseas investment. As there was another £1.2m payment to go to the football from the Chinese as part of the deal, the oblingations were not met. DB was a very clever lawyer so I expect that the contracts read that if the money was not paid they would be in breach of contract and DB could re-acquire the shares. I know it sounds incredible that they would have returned the money but thats not how business contracts work, especially bearing in mind, in one corner a experienced, shrewd lawyer, one corner a very small business (and people) with a tiny business having accesses to £6.8m to throw around and then in the other corner - off shore accounts and businesses and finally in the other corner, possible money laundering and illegal activities.

We have total evidence of the £6.8m payments and the re-acquirement of the shares, we dont know how a small company would be willing and able to pay £6.8m for a club that the owners brought for £1 2 years earlier, we don't know why KT / DB have spoke about all the details of the transactions etc, we don't know why the Chinese hasn't broken KT legs  ;D (they did make a challenge, so would suggest they not happy)  Again it is the whole point, after DC, fans still seem to not worry about iffy dealing by our owners, why the football rots arounds them as the owners work on asset striping the football, all in the name of development

Random I'm going to come back with some more questions/clarifications. I'm not looking for an argument. I think if you and others (including but not limited to GPC) can address some of these points clearly (and, crucially, evidence any claims you make) you're far more likely to bring people with you...

1) In the underlined part of your post, what are you actually alleging and can you evidence it? Please be very clear.
2) You say "we have total evidence" of particular transactions or parts of them. Why is this not being shared to back up the claims that yourself and others are making?
3) Do you have any real reason to doubt that any or all of the consideration was returned to 5U, or is that an assumption on your part? Appreciate it is difficult to prove a negative, but if you don't have any evidence it is an assumption nonetheless.

As an aside to 1), without any evidence/proof of wrongdoing I'd say you're sailing pretty close to the wind mate so choose your words carefully. I'd hate to see anyone get into hot water for trying to do what they see as the best by their club, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 23, 2021, 11:00:19 am
FWIW, I am loving the debate that's going on currently re this emotive topic.

In my opinion, there do seem to be a couple of distinct camps? Those that are fans who are unhappy with the goings on at "our club" and those that are fans who are probably separating the match day experience from the rest of the business?

Before anyone comments, both sides of this are perfectly entitled to their opinions. Also, neither camp deserve abuse from the other just because their viewpoint differs.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 23, 2021, 11:03:28 am
Agree. This is probably the longest the debate has gone on without descending into bickering or abuse (bar 1 post).
Certainly two very distinct positions but ultimately everyone wants the same thing which is for the club to succeed.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 11:03:49 am
so how often do you post on the Sainsbury's / Next / B&M / McDonalds etc fans forum?

Do you get into debate with other customers about the actions of their board members and owners?

Funnily enough, I don't. But then I'm not an "interested party" in any of their affairs. If I did though I'd have every bit as little/much right to tell them how they should be running their business as any of us do on here!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 11:23:59 am
Funnily enough, I don't. But then I'm not an "interested party" in any of their affairs. If I did though I'd have every bit as little/much right to tell them how they should be running their business as any of us do on here!

Exactly my point BOTN,  football clubs and their owners are and should be, under far more scrutiny that other businesses because they serve and represent the community they are in.

If you don't care about the behaviour of our owners, fine no problem, just stop caring about those that actually do as you question and scrutinise every statement or post anyone puts against the owners.
 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 11:32:04 am
Random I'm going to come back with some more questions/clarifications. I'm not looking for an argument. I think if you and others (including but not limited to GPC) can address some of these points clearly (and, crucially, evidence any claims you make) you're far more likely to bring people with you...

1) In the underlined part of your post, what are you actually alleging and can you evidence it? Please be very clear.
2) You say "we have total evidence" of particular transactions or parts of them. Why is this not being shared to back up the claims that yourself and others are making?
3) Do you have any real reason to doubt that any or all of the consideration was returned to 5U, or is that an assumption on your part? Appreciate it is difficult to prove a negative, but if you don't have any evidence it is an assumption nonetheless.

As an aside to 1), without any evidence/proof of wrongdoing I'd say you're sailing pretty close to the wind mate so choose your words carefully. I'd hate to see anyone get into hot water for trying to do what they see as the best by their club, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

The problem is Parrot, there is certain confirmed evidence of payments etc but a lot of it doesn't make sense. Ultimately when you look at the source of the £6.8m funds, they came from a small company in China with no visible financial track record and I feel it is at least fair to question why and where the money came from. They said education !!! Buying a football club for over 6 x the owners had invested in doesn't make any sense does it?   would you agree? 

Again all this about legal this, legal that, for me it's about trust, do you trust the owners to do their best for NTFC? and if you do great, but please tell me how they have won your trust?   


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 11:48:24 am
The problem is Parrot, there is certain confirmed evidence of payments etc but a lot of it doesn't make sense. Ultimately when you look at the source of the £6.8m funds, they came from a small company in China with no visible financial track record and I feel it is at least fair to question why and where the money came from. They said education !!! Buying a football club for over 6 x the owners had invested in doesn't make any sense does it?   would you agree? 

Again all this about legal this, legal that, for me it's about trust, do you trust the owners to do their best for NTFC? and if you do great, but please tell me how they have won your trust?   

Absolutely fair questions to ask, Random. I think mine were too though and, with respect, you haven't answered them.

I always want as complete an understanding as possible of a situation before I draw any conclusions. Unfortunately all I've got at the moment is unevidenced claims from yourself, GPC (e.g. movement of monies to BDJ) and others. You're clearly well-intentioned, and the things you're talking about are obvious to you because you say you've seen the evidence. You're asking the rest of us to just take claims on here at face-value and be as outraged as you are. For me, that's not how it works.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 12:06:48 pm
Parrot, how many times have you questioned KT?

Did you take it at face value when he joined and said he had £4m in invest? did you ask him for evidence? 

Did you ask KT for evidence why we should believe him that a £3m build of the East stand is the best value for our football club?

Why suddenly are you so interested in seeing the Trust's evidence?  Why do you trust KT and not the long serving, loyal supporters who have dedicated their lives ensuring that you have a club to support?  Do you really think they would publish lies against KT?

Did they publish the fact that they kept the club going at the end of DC era, they paid the staff wages to stop them leaving, they paid £1500, again in cash, to provide payment for the team bus so that we could fulfil an away fixture or two. Did they then make it known the KT had reneged on return that money to the Trust as agreed?  no they didn't, they didn't want to paint KT in a bad light I assume.

Did they post and complain after they didn't receive the normal thanks in the programme and tannoy when they sponsored a match?  no they didn't, but the club were petty enough to do so in the first place.

After being out in the cold KT called upon the Trust to support the land deal with NBC as they obviously indicated that the Trust view is important, so again they didn't hold it against KT, they tried to help. Obviously in light of the previous chairman etc, they wanted to know more details of what the deal actually was, so they asked the questions that KT invited. KT again didn't like be held accountable to the fans so launched an anti-Trust PR exercise. The rest is history 

So finally after 6 years of poor treatment by KT, they have finally grown and pair and said enough is enough


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 12:13:05 pm
Parrot, how many times have you questioned KT?

Did you take it at face value when he joined and said he had £4m in invest? did you ask him for evidence? 

Did you ask KT for evidence why we should believe him that a £3m build of the East stand is the best value for our football club?

Why suddenly are you so interested in seeing the Trust's evidence?  Why do you trust KT and not the long serving, loyal supporters who have dedicated their lives ensuring that you have a club to support?  Do you really think they would publish lies against KT?

Did they publish the fact that they kept the club going at the end of DC era, they paid the staff wages to stop them leaving, they paid £1500, again in cash, to provide payment for the team bus so that we could fulfil an away fixture or two. Did they then make it known the KT had reneged on return that money to the Trust as agreed?  no they didn't, they didn't want to paint KT in a bad light I assume.

Did they post and complain after they didn't receive the normal thanks in the programme and tannoy when they sponsored a match?  no they didn't, but the club were petty enough to do so in the first place.

After being out in the cold KT called upon the Trust to support the land deal with NBC as they obviously indicated that the Trust view is important, so again they didn't hold it against KT, they tried to help. Obviously in light of the previous chairman etc, they wanted to know more details of what the deal actually was, so they asked the questions that KT invited. KT again didn't like be held accountable to the fans so launched an anti-Trust PR exercise. The rest is history 

So finally after 6 years of poor treatment by KT, they have finally grown and pair and said enough is enough

I'm sorry mate but you're missing the point entirely and falling into a common habit on here of just being p**sed off that someone doesn't agree with you.

I haven't said that I trust or mistrust anybody on either side. I also haven't stated my opinion on the way KT/DB have run the club, handled the East Stand or managed their relationship with the trust (not for a long time anyway).

What I'm trying to do is level the playing field. If we're all furnished with the same facts and evidence, we can have a proper discussion about the rights and wrongs of what has or hasn't gone on.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 12:27:46 pm
To put it another way mate, I'll readily admit that I don't take as keen an interest in the business side of the club as you and others do. I tend to take what the club, owners and staff say at face value. Call me naive but for me it's too stressful to approach it another way and to do so would impact my enjoyment of supporting the club. No I'm not happy looking at that stand every week, but frankly no I can't be arsed to do a lot about it for as long as it doesn't drive a threat to me being able to watch my club play league football.

What's different now is that direct and sometimes serious allegations are being made of shady, immoral and even illegal behaviour. If proven or at least evidenced to a degree that warrants taking them seriously, these are the kinds of things that would change my stance from the above. That's why I want to understand them better and therefore ask questions. It's nothing to do with taking sides - I couldn't care less in that regard.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 23, 2021, 12:45:14 pm
To put it another way mate, I'll readily admit that I don't take as keen an interest in the business side of the club as you and others do. I tend to take what the club, owners and staff say at face value. Call me naive but for me it's too stressful to approach it another way and to do so would impact my enjoyment of supporting the club. No I'm not happy looking at that stand every week, but frankly no I can't be arsed to do a lot about it for as long as it doesn't drive a threat to me being able to watch my club play league football.

What's different now is that direct and sometimes serious allegations are being made of shady, immoral and even illegal behaviour. If proven or at least evidenced to a degree that warrants taking them seriously, these are the kinds of things that would change my stance from the above. That's why I want to understand them better and therefore ask questions. It's nothing to do with taking sides - I couldn't care less in that regard.

+1


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 12:56:12 pm
Exactly my point BOTN,  football clubs and their owners are and should be, under far more scrutiny that other businesses because they serve and represent the community they are in.

If you don't care about the behaviour of our owners, fine no problem, just stop caring about those that actually do as you question and scrutinise every statement or post anyone puts against the owners.
 

We're straying here into a territory that is a real bug bear of mine: absolutism. You seem to see me as blindly pro-KT and equally as blindly anti-anyone-against-KT.

That isn't the truth. I'm pro-balance and pro-fairness, so let me lay out my thoughts on both factions:

The Trust (and friends)
I've said on a number of occasions that I think the Trust is a good thing in principle, I'm proud that the Trust movement started with us and I want us to have an effective Trust going forwards. That said, in my opinion, the current Trust have behaved disgracefully over the last few years, having tantrums, throwing around allegations and insinuations like confetti and seemingly doing everything in their power to undermine the club at every turn. None of this sits well with me.

KT/DB
I actually think they have done a decent amount to bring us forwards as a community club. They stepped in and bailed us out and have continued to support the club's on field activities. OK, we're back where we started from but you really can't accuse them of not backing their managers financially but in a sensible manner. That said, they ain't really here for the football, are they? That's a fun side show. The real game is to make money from the surrounding area. When they've done that, they'll move along, taking the majority of that money with them. I think the difference between me and you on this one random is you're an idealist and I'm a realist; I have no problem with them making their money and moving along. I'd like to think they'll leave the club in a sound place when they go, but at this point that is on trust (as it would be with any other owner).

I really don't care how they manage their own money as long as it doesn't affect the club. Thus far, it doesn't seem to be in any real terms, so I'm happy. Would I rather they gifted money to the club instead of loaned it? Yes, of course, but why would they do that? I certainly have no expectation of them to do so.

And yes, actually, on a personal note I quite like KT. He comes over well, he talks to people, he isn't aloof the way Cardoza was. I sit not a million miles from the directors box and while I've never spoken to him directly, when he's at games he chats freely with people, laughing and joking with them and people seem to like him. From what I've seen, there are far more people amongst our fanbase in this camp than in the camp that seem to view him as the anti-christ.

Personally, I feel more engaged with the club under his stewardship than at any time in my 23 years or so as a season ticket holder.

Picking a side
I do not want to have to "pick a side". I want our club to be one that has a board and a Trust that can be civil and start working together, and not so long back I thought we were going to get that before the Trust reverted to type. Over the last few years, the club have kept a pretty dignified silence in the face of rather a lot of niggly provocation from the Trust (until recently at least when they appear to have come out swinging!)

I respect what KT & DB are trying to do here and, having worked for companies in the past that have been stymied in what they were trying to do by stakeholders lobbing in grenades at every turn, I felt some sympathy for them.

So for me it is who do you align yourself with? The quiet, polite guy just trying to get on with his job and make a few quid or the gobby, aggressive agitator shouting abuse from the sidelines? Yes, the time everything is taking is frustrating but I've seen nothing that makes me think KT & DB shouldn't be supported in what they are trying to do. Seeing people whinge and moan and criticise everything someone does winds me right up though.

Maybe it's more about perceptions and levels of patience and maybe I just like to think the best of people, but for the time being I'm content to let everything continue to play out as it is because I think things are going, very slowly, in the right direction.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 23, 2021, 13:31:19 pm
Parrot, how many times have you questioned KT?

How many times have you?  In person or in writing.....not on a messageboard.  What did he say?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 23, 2021, 13:32:33 pm
To put it another way mate, I'll readily admit that I don't take as keen an interest in the business side of the club as you and others do. I tend to take what the club, owners and staff say at face value. Call me naive but for me it's too stressful to approach it another way and to do so would impact my enjoyment of supporting the club. No I'm not happy looking at that stand every week, but frankly no I can't be arsed to do a lot about it for as long as it doesn't drive a threat to me being able to watch my club play league football.

What's different now is that direct and sometimes serious allegations are being made of shady, immoral and even illegal behaviour. If proven or at least evidenced to a degree that warrants taking them seriously, these are the kinds of things that would change my stance from the above. That's why I want to understand them better and therefore ask questions. It's nothing to do with taking sides - I couldn't care less in that regard.
Unfortunately mate you canít demarcate between the business side and what happens on the field, they are so linked itís untrue.
I know what you mean about not wanting to get involved in the business side and KTs running of the club. BUT this is called Apathy and Cobblers fans are full of it and it plays into the owners hands.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 23, 2021, 13:36:38 pm
How many times have you?  In person or in writing.....not on a messageboard.  What did he say?
What he thinks you want to hear, actions always speak louder than words, Kelvin Thomasís spectacular failure to run our club is there for all to see, no real assets of value, the stadium in a terrible condition, broken windows, the ďbig screenĒ broken etc etc back in L2 and all this for a bargain £7m.
In any other business heíd be down the road long ago!!!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 13:37:55 pm
Unfortunately mate you canít demarcate between the business side and what happens on the field, they are so linked itís untrue.
I know what you mean about not wanting to get involved in the business side and KTs running of the club. BUT this is called Apathy and Cobblers fans are full of it and it plays into the owners hands.


Manny if you read back you'll see that I'm not apathetic in the slightest. As soon as we progress from innuendos (see your latest in bold), I'll sit up and listen. In fact, I've spent a fair chunk of today trying to accelerate that process to no avail.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 23, 2021, 13:40:42 pm
Manny if you read back you'll see that I'm not apathetic in the slightest. As soon as we progress from innuendos (see your latest in bold), I'll sit up and listen. In fact, I've spent a fair chunk of today trying to accelerate that process to no avail.
Sorry mate I wasnít accusing you of not caring it was more of a general observation.
If you want the facts contact the trust they have all you need to know.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 13:46:01 pm
Sorry mate I wasnít accusing you of not caring it was more of a general observation.
If you want the facts contact the trust they have all you need to know.

No worries.

They may well have it, but unfortunately they are unwilling to share it. This is a claim I can evidence:

http://www.smfserver.com/forums/thehotelend/index.php/topic,20202.msg442346.html?PHPSESSID=23106eefd63cbb8a1331c849ed88b992#msg442346
 (http://www.smfserver.com/forums/thehotelend/index.php/topic,20202.msg442346.html?PHPSESSID=23106eefd63cbb8a1331c849ed88b992#msg442346)
See quote from linked post by MC Hammer:
MCH question: 'What physical evidence do you have that the payments were made/money changed hands for the amounts quoted?  Can that be shared to support the trusts statements?'

Trust response: 'The Trust Board is satisfied that the evidence of the payments in the amounts stated is accurate.'


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 23, 2021, 13:49:21 pm
No worries.

They may well have it, but unfortunately they are unwilling to share it. This is a claim I can evidence:

http://www.smfserver.com/forums/thehotelend/index.php/topic,20202.msg442346.html?PHPSESSID=23106eefd63cbb8a1331c849ed88b992#msg442346
 (http://www.smfserver.com/forums/thehotelend/index.php/topic,20202.msg442346.html?PHPSESSID=23106eefd63cbb8a1331c849ed88b992#msg442346)
See quote from linked post by MC Hammer:
MCH question: 'What physical evidence do you have that the payments were made/money changed hands for the amounts quoted?  Can that be shared to support the trusts statements?'

Trust response: 'The Trust Board is satisfied that the evidence of the payments in the amounts stated is accurate.'
Maybe Grange Park Cobbler could help?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 23, 2021, 13:52:07 pm
For someone who purports to be an international ty**** and cannot miss an opportunity to broadcast the fact, you really are quite dim. I guess your your Kojee Bear piggybank must be empty.
Soggy, welcome back old friend.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 13:53:49 pm
Maybe Grange Park Cobbler could help?

I've asked GPC to source some of the information he posted yesterday but he hasn't replied yet. Can you see the theme here and why it frustrates?

Whichever side of the debate you're on, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect people to back up what they say or back down if they can't/won't.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 23, 2021, 14:00:08 pm
So why would the majority of the money be paid into the BVI?
Reduction in corporation tax?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 23, 2021, 14:47:05 pm
On the Chinese money side of things then....

So we, the supporters, are not allowed to see evidence of the payments for the share purchase we just have to accept the word of the Supporters Trust.  Is that good enough? Everyone happy with that?

OK what about the fact that the Trust knew about this information last summer so about 12 months ago but chose not to publicly release it until recently.  Happy with that?  No questions anyone?  Would you have liked to have known about this a year ago?

According to KT someone from the Trust or closely associated with them then contacted media organisations with this information.  Happy with that?  Is that what you all would want to happen?

The Trust may have reported this information to the relevant authority but they can't or won't tell you if they did?  Somehow being governed by the Financial Conduct Authority is relevant to not being able to provide a detailed response.  What does that even mean?  If they have reported concerns to an authority would you want to know?  Would you be concerned why and what had been done wrong?  If they haven't reported it to anyone would that also be of interest why?

Anyway forget all that if the Trust board have concerns about the Chinese deal like other NTFC supporters that they are representative of would expect them to raise them directly with KT for an explanation.  Apparently they did.....last September.  What did they ask him I hear you all cry...no just me then?  We don't know it was a "closed letter".  What did he say in his explanantion?  We don't know becuase they never even told you even a year later that they even asked.....until the letter was released/leaked by KT to a supporter.  Was the Trust happy with KT's response did they question further?  What was said in the meetings that subsequently took place?  

WE DON'T KNOW BECUASE THEY WON'T TELL YOU OR RELEASE THE CORRESPONDENCE.  We only know it exists because KT released it.  The guy who isn't answering questions and won't tell you what happened with the Chinese deal.  You might not agree with his anwers as is your right but you surely deserve to at least know there were some answers.

Are you still happy with all that?

In an even more bizarre twist of events shortly after the Trust raised all these concerns regarding the Chinese deal with the owner...they released a joint statement with the club publicly backing the development deal.

Are you happy they backed the deal in those circumstances?  Did their concerns get removed after these interactions with KT?  You would think so if they decided to publicly back him?  If not what the hell were they doing?  Again no explanation given.

The final irony is that everyone that seems to have some level of concern about the legal and moral level of these Chinese funds suddenly seems to be ok about them if they were gifted/converted to share equity rather than loans.

So for those that constantly dismiss me as anti Trust and and don't think I should even be challenging them.  Honestly are you happy with all of that?  Have they given you all of the information you deserve or need to make a balanced judgement?  Is this how you want the Trust to be?  To you want to constantly be given a "view" of the trust board or the information so you can make your own mind up?

Closed communications, partial information, releasing information when they see fit, avoiding answering questions fully, a board that is making big decisions without consulting it's supporters......who am I talking about here KT or the Trust?

Surely you want more than this?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 15:07:33 pm
That would be a great post MC if it was aimed at KT

The Trust have tried to support and tread carefully and has gotten them nowhere.

You really expect them to publish evidence about payments etc?

In the meantime you ask and expect nothing of KT?  have you actually considered why the Trust have taken this action? 

Did you get KT approval for your reply above? What is he offering you for your soul??


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 23, 2021, 15:09:06 pm
Its not just where we are now, it's where we are heading in the future that worries me and the Trust

Every single year passes with them in control of our club the following happens

1. The team gets worse
2. The finances gets worse
3. The relationship with the fans gets worse
4. The condition of the ground gets worse
5. The communication from the owners gets worse.

What are your thoughts on the above MC, BOTN, Hammy and all the others focusing on the Trust rather than the owners?






Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 15:22:10 pm
That would be a great post MC if it was aimed at KT

The Trust have tried to support and tread carefully and has gotten them nowhere.

You really expect them to publish evidence about payments etc?

In the meantime you ask and expect nothing of KT?  have you actually considered why the Trust have taken this action? 

Did you get KT approval for your reply above? What is he offering you for your soul??

Random, it is the Trust and its friends shouting the odds and trying to discredit the club. That is why people are putting the onus on them to provide supporting evidence for their position. It isn't about being pro or anti anyone, it's about not just reading a series of unsubstantiated claims on here and taking them as gospel.

On the bit in bold - yes. Absolutely I do. How else can the rest of us be expected to take them seriously?
If you were accused of wrongdoing, I'm sure you'd want your accuser to need to show some proof or good evidence before you were arrested and/or all your friends turned their backs on you and/or you ended up in the papers. No?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 15:30:00 pm
Well, as you've asked me specifically....

Its not just where we are now, it's where we are heading in the future that worries me and the Trust

Every single year passes with them in control of our club the following happens

1. The team gets worse - Subjective at best.
YearFinishComment
11 L2They can't take much credit for this one, although we might not have finished the season at all if they hadn't come in.
216 L1Worse
322 L1Worse
415 L2A level lower, but a better team.
57 L2Not great to watch, granted, but you can't argue with promotion.
622nd L1Worse
7???Who knows, but under Brady I'm hopeful.
2. The finances gets worse - On paper.  
3. The relationship with the fans gets worse - completely disagree. I think most fans are right behind the team and proud of the club. I can't wait for the season to start.
4. The condition of the ground gets worse - this is true. I appreciate if there is going to be movement on the development front soon you might not spend that much on maintenance but FFS, you could at least get someone to fix the outdoor tap behind the North stand that has clearly been jetting water for some time!
5. The communication from the owners gets worse - disagree again. I think they say what they can. Things are at a delicate stage with the council, say too much and either irritate the council or get the fans' hopes up only to be pilloried if things then don't happen. Sometimes it's best to keep quiet. That way you only get pilloried for your communications getting worse.




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 23, 2021, 15:36:44 pm
What are your thoughts on the above MC, BOTN, Hammy and all the others focusing on the Trust rather than the owners?


In fairness Random the points are a bit subjective.

1. The team gets worse (2 promotions and relegations during the tenure suggests more of a standing still)
2. The finances gets worse (Solely in debt to the owners so irrelevant really)
3. The relationship with the fans gets worse (again the usual people are for/against/indifferent, so more standing still I would say)
4. The condition of the ground gets worse (agreed , but it was dog sh1t to start with)
5. The communication from the owners gets worse. (Disagree but again subjective)

The main issue is that the people who have a problem with the owners continue to do so, the people who donít, donít. And the people who are indifferent remain so and absolutely no one is changing their stance. Complete stalemate and it ainít going to change anytime soon, unless something drastic happens. All your posts, commentary, arguments and statements of fact have been a complete waste of time and achieved nothing. A bit like mine really.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Battery Man on July 23, 2021, 15:45:27 pm
That would be a great post MC if it was aimed at KT

The Trust have tried to support and tread carefully and has gotten them nowhere.

You really expect them to publish evidence about payments etc?

In the meantime you ask and expect nothing of KT?  have you actually considered why the Trust have taken this action? 

Did you get KT approval for your reply above? What is he offering you for your soul??

Random this response is why people aren't believing the Trust, of course we want evidence. What you are doing with this is just putting peoples backs up.

We don't necessarily believe or trust KT, however, the Trust recently have done very little to earn our trust either. If they have evidence and they want the fans on board then they need to put proven information out in the public domain otherwise it can seem like sour grapes. If the Trust don't put the information out there and have it then they are no better than the owner, it almost seems like they want us to be in a position where we have to get the buckets out so they can say I told you so and gloat.

I don't know how you cannot see that people just want the full information it doesn't help when they ask for this that you accuse them of supporting KT.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: 1971cobbler on July 23, 2021, 15:47:38 pm
Random, it is the Trust and its friends shouting the odds and trying to discredit the club. That is why people are putting the onus on them to provide supporting evidence for their position. It isn't about being pro or anti anyone, it's about not just reading a series of unsubstantiated claims on here and taking them as gospel.

On the bit in bold - yes. Absolutely I do. How else can the rest of us be expected to take them seriously?
If you were accused of wrongdoing, I'm sure you'd want your accuser to need to show some proof or good evidence before you were arrested and/or all your friends turned their backs on you and/or you ended up in the papers. No?

+1

Smacks of Trump, Guilliani et al.

"We were robbed, the election was rigged"

Q: Where's the proof of that?
A: We have tons of proof.

Q: OK, can you publish it so we can investigate.
A: We have proof....

And so it goes on and on and on.  :(

Meanwhile, there's a season to prepare for and look forward to.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 23, 2021, 16:02:15 pm
That would be a great post MC if it was aimed at KT

The Trust have tried to support and tread carefully and has gotten them nowhere.

You really expect them to publish evidence about payments etc?

In the meantime you ask and expect nothing of KT?  have you actually considered why the Trust have taken this action? 

Did you get KT approval for your reply above? What is he offering you for your soul??

Random.  This is a message board and this thread was created to discuss the Trust Statement they released regarding Club Finances.

This statement led me to have several questions of the Supporters Trust, who remember released this statement, which I asked on here and then directly to them via email.  The answers or any information they supply may well have lead me to have questions of the owners.  It's clear this information led the Supporters Trust to have questions of the owners which apparently they asked and received answers....a year ago.  You only know this because the owners released the response when a supporter questioned him recently in the way you are suggesting everyone should.  If I'd have asked KT myself I probably would have got the same response.

So you are telling me that every individual supporter is supposed to go and individually question the owners of the club to find out answers to questions that a supporters representative body has already asked in secret and has replies to?  Is there nothing at all telling you this shouldn't be the way it should work?

As for petty insults re getting KT's approval or selling my soul.  You haven't addressed a single issue I have raised other than to respond I should be challenging KT.  Not a single peep on any of the issues I have raised with the Trust and their response......on a thread created to discuss their statement!  If the extent of your debate is ask KT then you've alrady said it and I would extend the same advice to you.  Let me know how you get on and stop side tracking this thread.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 23, 2021, 16:34:02 pm
Random this response is why people aren't believing the Trust, of course we want evidence. What you are doing with this is just putting peoples backs up.

We don't necessarily believe or trust KT, however, the Trust recently have done very little to earn our trust either. If they have evidence and they want the fans on board then they need to put proven information out in the public domain otherwise it can seem like sour grapes. If the Trust don't put the information out there and have it then they are no better than the owner, it almost seems like they want us to be in a position where we have to get the buckets out so they can say I told you so and gloat.

I don't know how you cannot see that people just want the full information it doesn't help when they ask for this that you accuse them of supporting KT.

Great post. 

Here's the funny thing about all of this.  I'm inclined to believe on balance the figures are probably correct.  I highly doubt the Trust Board would put out this information knowing the risk they put themselves under if it's false.

So why is the supporting evidence important?  As you rightly point out it provides context and supports their statement.  The seeming reluctance to provide supporting evidence does the reverse and makes people question why you won't.

I have no idea what "the evidence" is but without knowing what it is, where it came from and how it was obtained how much weight can you put on it?  Essentially we are being told "trust me".

You might also rightly ask, if they have evidence of the payments received why don't they have evidence of what was paid out if anything to regain the ownership or the costs involved?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Upton Way on July 23, 2021, 16:49:25 pm
You seem to spend a whole lot of time and energy criticising the Trust and its supporters on this site but remarkably little time criticising the club's owners.  The owners are the story and it's quite a story.

If you had seen proof of payment what difference would it make to your view? Not a lot I suggest. I am sure you will continue with your Trust bashing. You are a sad case.




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Battery Man on July 23, 2021, 16:49:51 pm
Great post. 

Here's the funny thing about all of this.  I'm inclined to believe on balance the figures are probably correct.  I highly doubt the Trust Board would put out this information knowing the risk they put themselves under if it's false.

So why is the supporting evidence important?  As you rightly point out it provides context and supports their statement.  The seeming reluctance to provide supporting evidence does the reverse and makes people question why you won't.

I have no idea what "the evidence" is but without knowing what it is, where it came from and how it was obtained how much weight can you put on it?  Essentially we are being told "trust me".

You might also rightly ask, if they have evidence of the payments received why don't they have evidence of what was paid out if anything to regain the ownership or the costs involved?

I totally agree with you, we as a club, need an active and fully functioning trust to warn and prevent anything underhand happening, what we appear to have is a trust that if anything is more secretive than the club which does not sit right with me. If there is knowledge and proof of wrongdoing or concerns need to be raised then they are going about it in totally the wrong way. Most supporters will jump into action if they know something is wrong but unless we are given facts we cannot act.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 17:04:04 pm
You seem to spend a whole lot of time and energy criticising the Trust and its supporters on this site but remarkably little time criticising the club's owners.  The owners are the story and it's quite a story.

If you had seen proof of payment what difference would it make to your view? Not a lot I suggest. I am sure you will continue with your Trust bashing. You are a sad case.




Welcome back, Roger!  :P


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Upton Way on July 23, 2021, 17:10:12 pm
No, but the same comment applies to you about having an unhealthy and unbalanced dislike of all things Trust.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 17:13:42 pm
No, but the same comment applies to you about having an unhealthy and unbalanced dislike of all things Trust.

Actually, I have an unhealthy and unbalanced dislike of the current Trust's behaviour. Not the same thing at all.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Upton Way on July 23, 2021, 17:42:21 pm
But no view on the disappeared Chinese money none of which has appeared on the club's books other than as debt. Not even a whimper of discontent at the conduct of owners. Remarkable. I do wonder why.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 17:55:35 pm
But no view on the disappeared Chinese money none of which has appeared on the club's books other than as debt. Not even a whimper of discontent at the conduct of owners. Remarkable. I do wonder why.

I've bought shares in the past and do you know what? The money I paid went straight into the pocket of the last person to own the shares and didn't go near the books of the company I was buying shares in. I was outraged when I found out, I can tell you!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 23, 2021, 17:57:34 pm
But no view on the disappeared Chinese money none of which has appeared on the club's books other than as debt. Not even a whimper of discontent at the conduct of owners. Remarkable. I do wonder why.

Upton. Even random has largely managed to avoid talking to people who disagree with him like they're idiots today. Perhaps you should try it and have a crack at persuasion.

Edit: you too BOTN  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 23, 2021, 17:59:14 pm
What are your thoughts on the above MC, BOTN, Hammy and all the others focusing on the Trust rather than the owners?






I have never focused solely on the Trust. So once again, your point falls flat on its face. As said previously by others, it is total absolutism. If I donít agree with you and a small minority of others completely, I must agree with the target of your frustration. I have asked repeatedly for you and your cronies to produce evidence of my undying support for KT and DB. You can't. Yet you peddle the same old shyte..

Canít you see, that whilst many of us understand the complexities of the situation, we will not dwell on or target someone for having a different view. I might not be mad on how the club is run. But unless someone can show me something illegal or improper I will not join in the character assassination. I can see why that riles some of you, but it does not make me in agreement with anyone. If I had to render a personal opinion. I would express my concern at two things. Firstly, the level of debt. Secondly, the level of vitriol and obsession that some of you have surrounding the whole thing. It clearly dominates your thoughts way past what could be described as healthy, by any standard.

These guys are basking in sunshine by the pool in exotic locations, whilst a bunch of obsessives are tearing their hair out on the internet. If thereís something to actually nail them with, can you please, please, please just get on with itÖ


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 23, 2021, 18:11:29 pm
Upton. Even random has largely managed to avoid talking to people who disagree with him like they're idiots today. Perhaps you should try it and have a crack at persuasion.

Edit: you too BOTN  ;D

Moi?  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 23, 2021, 18:26:04 pm
But no view on the disappeared Chinese money none of which has appeared on the club's books other than as debt. Not even a whimper of discontent at the conduct of owners. Remarkable. I do wonder why.

There is no disapeared Chinese money. Do you expect me to tell you when and where I transfer funds that belong me?
Sorry, but you are just come across another trust member/board member who is chucking their toys from the pram because the big boys wont talk to them and while this sort of stance goes on The Trust lose more credibilty every day.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemaker on July 23, 2021, 20:06:24 pm
Thereís nothing wrong with the trust that a completely new board wouldnít sort

Iím still not sure if they support Kelvin regards the Chinese money as reported in the chronicle in 2018 or donít support him regards the Chinese situation.

Itís very hard to tell when the same group of people meet the chairman face to face and endorse him and then seem to decide not too without posting their reasons or proof thereof.

I think this is a fair comment.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on July 23, 2021, 20:32:49 pm
 Question 1, have KT, DB or NTFC denied that what the Trust said about the Chinese money was true ? If so I must have missed it  ???
 Question 2, the Trust have took a lot of stick for declining a Zoom meeting, which I personally think was a mistake, but KT has got off scot free for declining to provide written answers, aren't his actions exactly the same ? At least the Trust declined his offer, he didn't even reply to the Trust.
 Question 3, Re the East Stand, NTFC said on 25th June 2021 "We are positive about the direction we are heading and felt confident enough that a few months ago we were able to commission these conceptual images to show both the council, supporters and stakeholders what we are trying to achieve with the East Stand". It is a know fact that the plans displayed at the Open Evening are over 5 years old, so isn't that statement a little misleading ?
 Question 4, Re the "Hatchet job" alleged in the leaked letter , isn't it likely that these papers that ran the story, got in touch with the Trust for a comment on the story, rather than the Trust ringing them and asking them to run the story ? This is the Mail and the Athletic we are talking about, not the Chron, where, I've heard that NTFC have been known to mention withdrawal of co-operation if some stories are run.

 It seems that the powers that be, at NTFC, are going to great lengths to discredit what KT described as "A few disaffected people" at the start of the current spat


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 23, 2021, 20:38:34 pm
Reduction in corporation tax?
You donít pay corporation tax on the sale of private shares.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 23, 2021, 20:44:55 pm
You donít pay corporation tax on the sale of private shares.

Be gentle with him, he still thinks Michael Hutchence was making love to an architrave.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 23, 2021, 20:59:16 pm
There is no disapeared Chinese money. Do you expect me to tell you when and where I transfer funds that belong me?
Sorry, but you are just come across another trust member/board member who is chucking their toys from the pram because the big boys wont talk to them and while this sort of stance goes on The Trust lose more credibilty every day.
Your right itís allegedly in the BVI.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Tabasco Kid on July 23, 2021, 21:00:21 pm
Be gentle with him, he still thinks Michael Hutchence was making love to an architrave.
One of the best gigs I ever went to, was INXS at Leicester.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 23, 2021, 21:20:12 pm
Your right itís allegedly in the BVI.

I think theyíve been waiting for that ďallegedlyĒ 😜😀


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 23, 2021, 21:40:28 pm
I think theyíve been waiting for that ďallegedlyĒ 😜😀
Once bitten twice shy Tel.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Another Pedj on July 23, 2021, 22:04:24 pm
You donít pay corporation tax on the sale of private shares.

Mannys got something right! I never thought I would see the day.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 23, 2021, 22:19:19 pm
One of the best gigs I ever went to, was INXS at Leicester.

Blimey!!! Each to their own etc, etc, etc, but I find that very difficult to believe. Have you been to many gigs? :P


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 23, 2021, 23:52:10 pm
You donít pay corporation tax on the sale of private shares.
But it does on any profits the business makes so maybe the company will used as an entity to reduce liability on transactions generally when the land deal goes through. There could be multiple accounting reasons why transactions are made using that company. Look, Iím not saying people are wrong, Iím just making the point that whilst people can claim there is something underhand a foot, there are also plenty of legitimate reasons too. I just happen to think they are more logical. Keep saying it though, I fcuk things up all the time so donít listen to me.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 23, 2021, 23:58:59 pm
Be gentle with him, he still thinks Michael Hutchence was making love to an architrave.
Brillant Soggy!

With business, common and decorum you have failed, but at last in humour you have finally found a ďsenseĒ you appear to possess. Told you perseverance would eventually pay off and you would type something of worth, congratulations.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 24, 2021, 00:08:14 am
One of the best gigs I ever went to, was INXS at Leicester.
Was Soggy there with a length of architrave strapped to his back, probably standing on his own?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 24, 2021, 10:13:18 am
Once bitten twice shy Tel.

Iíve been there a few times mate. At least twice with Cardozie and recently with the council.  ;D ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 24, 2021, 10:34:08 am
But it does on any profits the business makes so maybe the company will used as an entity to reduce liability on transactions generally when the land deal goes through. There could be multiple accounting reasons why transactions are made using that company. Look, Iím not saying people are wrong, Iím just making the point that whilst people can claim there is something underhand a foot, there are also plenty of legitimate reasons too. I just happen to think they are more logical. Keep saying it though, I fcuk things up all the time so donít listen to me.
You would need to see the contract, all depends on the share value and whether any ďgood willĒ payment was made.
As I said people use BVI for a reason.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 24, 2021, 10:50:45 am
You would need to see the contract, all depends on the share value and whether any ďgood willĒ payment was made.
As I said people use BVI for a reason.
Seems to me they have put money into BDJ, BDJ loans the money to the club. When the deals go through the funds are paid to BDJ clearing the loan and leaving a profit which is subject to what I understand is 0% corporation tax in the BVI. If the club was loaned the money via a UK company and was paid the assets from the deal then it would be subject to 19% corporation tax on the profit. Assuming they look to make a few million thatís a lot of money? Iím just guessing but it seems a logical explanation to me?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 24, 2021, 11:09:49 am
Seems to me they have put money into BDJ, BDJ loans the money to the club. When the deals go through the funds are paid to BDJ clearing the loan and leaving a profit which is subject to what I understand is 0% corporation tax in the BVI. If the club was loaned the money via a UK company and was paid the assets from the deal then it would be subject to 19% corporation tax on the profit. Assuming they look to make a few million thatís a lot of money? Iím just guessing but it seems a logical explanation to me?
The loan repayment wouldnít be subject to corporation tax either.
Thereís no profit from the loan for BDJ because the asset belongs to the club and therefore subject to corp tax on NTFC.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Tabasco Kid on July 24, 2021, 11:25:55 am
Blimey!!! Each to their own etc, etc, etc, but I find that very difficult to believe. Have you been to many gigs? :P
Loads. I could not even begin to count them all. Be it in a pub, or Hammy odeon, Rock City, De Montford,etc,etc,etc, but one thing, I never ever went to see Hawkwind.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 24, 2021, 11:45:47 am
Loads. I could not even begin to count them all. Be it in a pub, or Hammy odeon, Rock City, De Montford,etc,etc,etc, but one thing, I never ever went to see Hawkwind.

Thereís still time. You never know they might overtake INXS as your favourite ever gig. ;D
Touring in September. Cambridge Corn Exchange and Leamington Spa Assembly Hall are the 2 nearest venues.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Tabasco Kid on July 24, 2021, 11:55:40 am
Thereís still time. You never know they might overtake INXS as your favourite ever gig. ;D
Touring in September. Cambridge Corn Exchange and Leamington Spa Assembly Hall are the 2 nearest venues.
I woud rather stick bumble bees up my @rse.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 24, 2021, 11:56:57 am
The loan repayment wouldnít be subject to corporation tax either.
Thereís no profit from the loan for BDJ because the asset belongs to the club and therefore subject to corp tax on NTFC.
Iím not sure thatís quite right, depends how itís structured.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 24, 2021, 11:59:55 am
Iím not sure thatís quite right, depends how itís structured.
Meanwhile Kid and Shoey are on about Hawkwind, this forum gets more surreal by the day. Whereís Soggy, I want to hear more on Michael Hutchence


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Tabasco Kid on July 24, 2021, 12:14:31 pm
Meanwhile Kid and Shoey are on about Hawkwind, this forum gets more surreal by the day. Whereís Soggy, I want to hear more on Michael Hutchence
You only want to hear about the Hutch because hes an aussie. In the meantime, we need something to discuss, as long as it does not get nasty.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 24, 2021, 12:21:41 pm
You only want to hear about the Hutch because hes an aussie. In the meantime, we need something to discuss, as long as it does not get nasty.
Correct, too much arguing on here.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 24, 2021, 12:30:57 pm
Meanwhile Kid and Shoey are on about Hawkwind, this forum gets more surreal by the day. Whereís Soggy, I want to hear more on Michael Hutchence

Well Melly. Itís just as interesting/uninteresting as all the other posts on the thread. Whatís going on, whatís actually happened, is it the councils, KT/DBs, the Chinese, or The Trusts fault. Is anything ever going to get resolved. Is the stand ever going to get finished. Is the ground ever going to get a significant increase in capacity. Are we ever going to have any money. Is anyone ever going to know the truth, is anyone ever going to get done. Is KT a good bloke, are the council crap, do the trust know what theyíre doing. Do you pay tax in certain countries whether you live there, have a bank account there or go on holiday there, blah, blah, blah. Nobody really knows much, so we all just keep hoping it doesnít all go **** up.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 24, 2021, 12:34:24 pm
Well Melly. Itís just as interesting/uninteresting as all the other posts on the thread. Whatís going on, whatís actually happened, is it the councils, KT/DBs, the Chinese, or The Trusts fault. Is anything ever going to get resolved. Is the stand ever going to get finished. Is the ground ever going to get a significant increase in capacity. Are we ever going to have any money. Is anyone ever going to know the truth, is anyone ever going to get done. Is KT a good bloke, are the council crap, do the trust know what theyíre doing. Do you pay tax in certain countries whether you live there, have a bank account there or go on holiday there, blah, blah, blah. Nobody really knows much, so we all just keep hoping it doesnít all go **** up.

Tžts


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 24, 2021, 12:38:35 pm
Tžts
More interesting probably. Retired wall of death riders have been round in less circles.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 24, 2021, 13:27:34 pm
Meanwhile Kid and Shoey are on about Hawkwind, this forum gets more surreal by the day. Whereís Soggy, I want to hear more on Michael Hutchence
;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 24, 2021, 14:29:27 pm
I think all weíve learnt is that you wouldnít shop on here to find a decent accountant  ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 24, 2021, 16:19:08 pm
I think all weíve learnt is that you wouldnít shop on here to find a decent accountant  ;D

I think weíve all learnt that the saying ďthe devils finds work for idle handsĒ could never be used more appropriate, than for some involving themselves in this situation.





Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on July 24, 2021, 17:56:10 pm
It always strikes me that throughout this whole drama and indeed over a million views and 20k posts on the Redevelopment thread that it was all so avoidable.

 A loan, however badly implemented, and a land option that done properly could and should have given every partner what they wanted and needed. The Council with a redeveloped asset of theirs, the club with an improved stadium on the original plans with hotel and conference centre, the council loan repaid in full, the owners at the time sitting pretty with a good return and the club debt repaid. Buckinghams and other partners paid for the work they carried out in full.
 Everyone happy and no one losing out.

Even when things were going sideways DC could have bailed out with the offers of £23 million to buy the land and settle up.
Instead we have the sh1tshow we have. The council slated and taxpayers out of pocket, Cardozas disgraced and rightly so, the Bushey boys still seemingly out of reach by the plod, Mackintosh somewhere out there, the club nearly lost but it wasnít thankfully.
The various groups of us arguing the toss over tax rules and peopleís intentions.

The main constant is us the fans. Before, during and after.
No particular reason for this post other than Iíll be glad when something is finished.

Roll on the start of the season. UTC FTP.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 24, 2021, 18:05:03 pm
It always strikes me that throughout this whole drama and indeed over a million views and 20k posts on the Redevelopment thread that it was all so avoidable.

 A loan, however badly implemented, and a land option that done properly could and should have given every partner what they wanted and needed. The Council with a redeveloped asset of theirs, the club with an improved stadium on the original plans with hotel and conference centre, the council loan repaid in full, the owners at the time sitting pretty with a good return and the club debt repaid. Buckinghams and other partners paid for the work they carried out in full.
 Everyone happy and no one losing out.

Even when things were going sideways DC could have bailed out with the offers of £23 million to buy the land and settle up.
Instead we have the sh1tshow we have. The council slated and taxpayers out of pocket, Cardozas disgraced and rightly so, the Bushey boys still seemingly out of reach by the plod, Mackintosh somewhere out there, the club nearly lost but it wasnít thankfully.
The various groups of us arguing the toss over tax rules and peopleís intentions.

The main constant is us the fans. Before, during and after.
No particular reason for this post other than Iíll be glad when something is finished.

Roll on the start of the season. UTC FTP.
Agree with all of that TBH mate.
What sticks in my throat is the Bushey boys.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 24, 2021, 18:13:25 pm
It always strikes me that throughout this whole drama and indeed over a million views and 20k posts on the Redevelopment thread that it was all so avoidable.

 A loan, however badly implemented, and a land option that done properly could and should have given every partner what they wanted and needed. The Council with a redeveloped asset of theirs, the club with an improved stadium on the original plans with hotel and conference centre, the council loan repaid in full, the owners at the time sitting pretty with a good return and the club debt repaid. Buckinghams and other partners paid for the work they carried out in full.
 Everyone happy and no one losing out.

Even when things were going sideways DC could have bailed out with the offers of £23 million to buy the land and settle up.
Instead we have the sh1tshow we have. The council slated and taxpayers out of pocket, Cardozas disgraced and rightly so, the Bushey boys still seemingly out of reach by the plod, Mackintosh somewhere out there, the club nearly lost but it wasnít thankfully.
The various groups of us arguing the toss over tax rules and peopleís intentions.

The main constant is us the fans. Before, during and after.
No particular reason for this post other than Iíll be glad when something is finished.

Roll on the start of the season. UTC FTP.

It could all have been avoided a while before we even got the loan. If only the lib dems hadnít stopped all out of town development until 2027 or whenever it was and Cardoza was allowed to carry out his building plans, things could have been so different, maybe. Fukking Lib Demís, they make me so mad.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Larry on July 24, 2021, 18:24:00 pm
It could all have been avoided a while before we even got the loan. If only the lib dems hadnít stopped all out of town development until 2027 or whenever it was and Cardoza was allowed to carry out his building plans, things could have been so different, maybe. Fukking Lib Demís, they make me so mad.

Yes and the Cardozas would have ploughed all the money they gained back into the club...


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 24, 2021, 18:37:44 pm
Yes and the Cardozas would have ploughed all the money they gained back into the club...


Who knows. This was long before the loan and long before the finger of suspicion was pointed at Cardoza and he had some fairly elaborate plans for redevelopment. Remember the picture in the Chron with him and Tony Clarke and the plans. He obviously wouldnít have ďploughed all the moneyĒ back into the club
but he may well have given us a far better ground and who knows, may have still been here.
Weíll never know. I do know that not much has changed though since Sickfields opened.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 24, 2021, 19:20:52 pm

Who knows. This was long before the loan and long before the finger of suspicion was pointed at Cardoza and he had some fairly elaborate plans for redevelopment. Remember the picture in the Chron with him and Tony Clarke and the plans. He obviously wouldnít have ďploughed all the moneyĒ back into the club
but he may well have given us a far better ground and who knows, may have still been here.
Weíll never know. I do know that not much has changed though since Sickfields opened.


https://images.app.goo.gl/k3dgM2K6yH95RUEz5


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 24, 2021, 19:25:40 pm

https://images.app.goo.gl/k3dgM2K6yH95RUEz5


Imagine that. Pipe dream I know, but slightly better than whatís been imagined since. If only.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Larry on July 24, 2021, 20:38:54 pm

https://images.app.goo.gl/k3dgM2K6yH95RUEz5

That was to get the loan. You do know how they got their money in the first place?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 24, 2021, 20:54:44 pm
It always strikes me that throughout this whole drama and indeed over a million views and 20k posts on the Redevelopment thread that it was all so avoidable.

 A loan, however badly implemented, and a land option that done properly could and should have given every partner what they wanted and needed. The Council with a redeveloped asset of theirs, the club with an improved stadium on the original plans with hotel and conference centre, the council loan repaid in full, the owners at the time sitting pretty with a good return and the club debt repaid. Buckinghams and other partners paid for the work they carried out in full.
 Everyone happy and no one losing out.

Even when things were going sideways DC could have bailed out with the offers of £23 million to buy the land and settle up.
Instead we have the sh1tshow we have. The council slated and taxpayers out of pocket, Cardozas disgraced and rightly so, the Bushey boys still seemingly out of reach by the plod, Mackintosh somewhere out there, the club nearly lost but it wasnít thankfully.
The various groups of us arguing the toss over tax rules and peopleís intentions.

The main constant is us the fans. Before, during and after.
No particular reason for this post other than Iíll be glad when something is finished.

Roll on the start of the season. UTC FTP.

Agree entirely mate.

That is exactly why I lay the blame squarely at the councils and the politicians doors. They are the protectors of the public purse. In Cardozas case, the money should have been ring fenced into a scheduled building scheme, released at stages throughout the development.

In terms of DB and KT, the money that was promised should have been put into a trust account (not the Trust account 😀) and a limited ground lease awarded based on proof of intent to undergo the promised works.

They did not protect the club, the people of Northampton, and certainly not the supporters and employees of NTFC. Yet they get off without an ounce of scrutiny or blame.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 24, 2021, 21:05:10 pm
That was to get the loan. You do know how they got their money in the first place?


Er no. They were the plans Cardoza and Tony Clarke presented before the Lib Demís got in and scuppered his plans even though they said they were the party to take the club forward. The ďloanĒ came a few years later. Not bothered how they got their money if they could and possibly would have taken the club forward. Unless of course it was somewhat heinous. Not condoning the Cardozas future conduct of course but if aforementioned had happened then who knows where we might be and weíd never have heard of Kelvin Thomas.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Larry on July 24, 2021, 21:10:41 pm

Er no.

Try this
https://www.facebook.com/Cobblers2022/posts/aye-aye-captain/689679047800081/


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 24, 2021, 21:54:43 pm
Try this
https://www.facebook.com/Cobblers2022/posts/aye-aye-captain/689679047800081/

Not sure what any of this has got to do with any potential development/redevelopment that may/may not have happened in 2005.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 25, 2021, 01:49:49 am
I think all weíve learnt is that you wouldnít shop on here to find a decent accountant  ;D
Iím not sure about that Tone. I reckon Iíve unearthed an undiscovered talent in myself and am thinking of taking it up on a professional basis?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 25, 2021, 08:59:31 am
Iím not sure about that Tone. I reckon Iíve unearthed an undiscovered talent in myself and am thinking of taking it up on a professional basis?

Theyíre still trying to account for a missing £10m over here if you have a spare 5 mins.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 25, 2021, 09:43:06 am
Theyíre still trying to account for a missing £10m over here if you have a spare 5 mins.
I recall hearing something about that somewhere?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 25, 2021, 17:28:23 pm
You seem to spend a whole lot of time and energy criticising the Trust and its supporters on this site but remarkably little time criticising the club's owners.  The owners are the story and it's quite a story.

If you had seen proof of payment what difference would it make to your view? Not a lot I suggest. I am sure you will continue with your Trust bashing. You are a sad case.

Wow look what we've got here.

Gather round everyone we've caught a big one.  If you look closely at the markings, the tone of their insults and study closely the droppings they left behind this species is easily identifiable.  The common name for them is "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member".

Being "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member" offers many benefits.  You can regualarly insult people on social media.  You can lobby local MP's/councillors against our current owners.  You can occasionally even obtain and share information with "A Trust Board Member(s)".  All while in the comfort of knowing it's not a problem for the Supporters Trust because you are "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member".

I've asked loads of questions recently why doesn't someone else ask this person what role they've carried out for the trust over the last couple of years.  Bet you don't get an honest answer with any detail.  Maybe even ask them if THEY have seen the actual evidence of the Chinese payments.

I thought they had been told to stand down or has the dust settled enough after the letter from club staff?  If you've forgotten your original login I'm sure admin can help you and we can have a proper debate.  Anything you want to dispute about what I have said recently?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 25, 2021, 19:39:11 pm
Wow look what we've got here.

Gather round everyone we've caught a big one.  If you look closely at the markings, the tone of their insults and study closely the droppings they left behind this species is easily identifiable.  The common name for them is "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member".

Being "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member" offers many benefits.  You can regualarly insult people on social media.  You can lobby local MP's/councillors against our current owners.  You can occasionally even obtain and share information with "A Trust Board Member(s)".  All while in the comfort of knowing it's not a problem for the Supporters Trust because you are "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member".

I've asked loads of questions recently why doesn't someone else ask this person what role they've carried out for the trust over the last couple of years.  Bet you don't get an honest answer with any detail.  Maybe even ask them if THEY have seen the actual evidence of the Chinese payments.

I thought they had been told to stand down or has the dust settled enough after the letter from club staff?  If you've forgotten your original login I'm sure admin can help you and we can have a proper debate.  Anything you want to dispute about what I have said recently?
I wonder who else has seen the evidence? 🤔


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 25, 2021, 20:05:23 pm
I wonder who else has seen the evidence?

Evidence of what? Someone making money out of a business deal. So fúcking what. You lovers of the Trust are so focused on this it is comical. You **** about the 6.8 million debt, how the fúck do you think the club would have survied with out this money being put into the club coffers?
OK, now come out with the "happy clappers", "love in with KT" comments and then tell me I am wrong.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on July 25, 2021, 20:12:32 pm
Evidence of what? Someone making money out of a business deal. So fķcking what. You lovers of the Trust are so focused on this it is comical. You **** about the 6.8 million debt, how the fķck do you think the club would have survied with out this money being put into the club coffers?
OK, now come out with the "happy clappers", "love in with KT" comments and then tell me I am wrong.

Surely 6.8 million in debt is exactly how NOT to run a business. This can only end badly.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 25, 2021, 21:07:35 pm
Surely 6.8 million in debt is exactly how NOT to run a business. This can only end badly.

So, you are expecting someone to gift money to a business? Or do you expect all expenses to be paid by magic?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 25, 2021, 21:09:28 pm
So, you are expecting someone to gift money to a business? Or do you expect all expenses to be paid by magic?
Most socialists believe in a magic money tree so I am shocked by your comment.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 25, 2021, 21:12:33 pm
Most socialists believe in a magic money tree so I am shocked by your comment.

Twát. Try saying something relevant.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 25, 2021, 21:19:08 pm
TwŠt. Try saying something relevant.
Haha love it when I hit a raw nerve, your really not very clever are you?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 25, 2021, 21:20:36 pm
Haha love it when I hit a raw nerve, your really not very clever are you?

No, you as usual have no answer to a question asked of you. Basically you are a twát. If you had a brain you would be dangerous.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 25, 2021, 21:25:55 pm
No, you as usual have no answer to a question asked of you. Basically you are a twŠt. If you had a brain you would be dangerous.
What question asked of me? itís unlike you to ask questions, you think you know everything better, typical millennial, woke and think the world owes them a living.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 25, 2021, 21:32:13 pm
What question asked of me? it’s unlike you to ask questions, you think you know everything better, typical millennial, woke and think the world owes them a living.

You really are a complete twat. All you can do is say that anyone who goes against your opinion is a happy clapper, in bed with KT or hates The Trust. Best thing you can do is hide your head in shame, as the owners of the club have put in 6.8 million to keep it running. How many of the ficticous "other intersted parties" could have done that.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 25, 2021, 21:38:08 pm
You really are a complete twat. All you can do is say that anyone who goes against your opinion is a happy clapper, in bed with KT or hates The Trust. Best thing you can do is hide your head in shame, as the owners of the club have put in 6.8 million to keep it running. How many of the ficticous "other intersted parties" could have done that.
It strike me that at some point in your life you were starved of oxygen.
Letís see what happens.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 00:54:00 am
It still frustrates me a that people are annoyed about criticism of the Trust being a priority for some. As a body that is representative of the support base and its members the Trust is supposed to be something you can do something about. Therefore if you would like a strong effective Trust of some influence or you feel the Trust is to some extent failing you as a member then you should be able to openly discuss this. Further more in light of the Trusts commitment to transparency, one would expect this to be encouraged. Alternatively kicking the sh1t out of the owners directly on here whilst therapeutic is a fairly pointless exercise. Therefore you could argue that trying to influence the approach of the Trust in theory should be the most realistic way of instigating change. In light of this wouldnít it make more sense to try and persuade or pressure the Trust than the ownership. At least that way you have a chance, no matter how small of achieving something.
My personal view is that if the Trust had the proven significant majority of the support base backing its decision making, it would be infinitely more powerful than it is now. That is what has motivated any criticism I have levelled at the Trust in the past. As a member this is both my right and should in theory be encouraged. Frankly any attempt to suppress opinion or criticise this activity is both not best practice and slightly confusing IMO. Itís also a bit sinister at times and definitely counterproductive. To repeat, the Trust is only likely to achieve anything of worth with the owners if it obtains the proven majority support of its membership and the wider support base. My view is that itís focus in the first instance should be to get it, also IMO obviously. In summary concentrate on what you can change and ignore what you canít. I would suggest this is why some focus more on the Trust than the ownership. Hope this clears up any confusion or mystery attached to this conundrum for some?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 01:22:45 am
Surely 6.8 million in debt is exactly how NOT to run a business. This can only end badly.
Depends on a few things Soggy, the source and consequence of the debt followed by the time frame and amount of return on investment. Dependant on the answers it might be exactly how to run it and may end very well. The first 2 are not an issue, the third is a concern and the fourth is unknown from where Iím sitting. But then access to the full picture is limited and I am a bit dim so can you elaborate on your thoughts please?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 09:13:07 am
Depends on a few things Soggy, the source and consequence of the debt followed by the time frame and amount of return on investment. Dependant on the answers it might be exactly how to run it and may end very well. The first 2 are not an issue, the third is a concern and the fourth is unknown from where Iím sitting. But then access to the full picture is limited and I am a bit dim so can you elaborate on your thoughts please?
Can you explain to me why the consequence of the (any) debt is not an issue Melbourne in the business sense because I  struggle with this.
My brain stretches as far as understanding that if the club had no debt to speak of having been run prudently in the knowledge that it has no real assets to speak of there would likely be suitors out there willing to buy it off the current owners at a realistic price and that these suitors could range from anyone between a local estate agent and his mates to Sheikh Mansour, but because the current owners have run up a debt of 6 million on day to day costs when it was demonstrated by Cardoza that this need not be the case and that this debt to the current owners needs to be repaid to them before they are willing to sell even the Sheikh might think twice.
How can building up a debt in the name of day to day running costs which purchases nothing permanent be exactly how to run anything, ever? I only understand the business practice that involves speculating to accumulate by building something that has a permanency and a guaranteed return, no matter how small. I this case that would be stuff like the infrastructure of stands and boxes etc.
If you wanted to hold the council, the people of Northampton, the fans, and anyone else interested in the welfare of the club to ransom in the pursuit of a land deal which would make you millions richer, i do however absolutely understand the logic in building up an apparent massively unsustainable debt that can get passed off as 'necessary for running costs' in order to win a very high stakes game of poker. The slight of hand that some seem to be suggesting now being that actually no real personal debt has been accrued by the owners.
How to get from a promise of 4 million ring-fenced to complete the stand with no attaching clauses to where we are now. Is this what some people are having trouble with, I wonder?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 09:38:34 am
Can you explain to me why the consequence of the (any) debt is not an issue Melbourne in the business sense because I  struggle with this.
My brain stretches as far as understanding that if the club had no debt to speak of having been run prudently in the knowledge that it has no real assets to speak of there would likely be suitors out there willing to buy it off the current owners at a realistic price and that these suitors could range from anyone between a local estate agent and his mates to Sheikh Mansour, but because the current owners have run up a debt of 6 million on day to day costs when it was demonstrated by Cardoza that this need not be the case and that this debt to the current owners needs to be repaid to them before they are willing to sell even the Sheikh might think twice.
How can building up a debt in the name of day to day running costs which purchases nothing permanent be exactly how to run anything, ever? I only understand the business practice that involves speculating to accumulate by building something that has a permanency and a guaranteed return, no matter how small. I this case that would be stuff like the infrastructure of stands and boxes etc.
If you wanted to hold the council, the people of Northampton, the fans, and anyone else interested in the welfare of the club to ransom in the pursuit of a land deal which would make you millions richer, i do however absolutely understand the logic in building up an apparent massively unsustainable debt that can get passed off as 'necessary for running costs' in order to win a very high stakes game of poker. The slight of hand that some seem to be suggesting now being that actually no real personal debt has been accrued by the owners.
How to get from a promise of 4 million ring-fenced to complete the stand with no attaching clauses to where we are now. Is this what some people are having trouble with, I wonder?

As an example CJ when we started our business over here I put in my own money in the form of a loan. If the business does well I get my money back. If it doesnít Iíve done my money and thatís it. If I borrow the money from a bank, they can pull the plug if they feel itís appropriate and I have little control over that. I would have also probably have put up collateral against the loan so the bank will use that to recoup its money. Therefore under a directors loan you retain full control over whatís going on with the finance of that loan, when getting a loan from an institution you hand an element of control over to them where they get to choose when to pull the plug and what assets to sell as a result often at significant consequence. Also if you are putting up assets from another business as security and that goes belly up they may pull the plug on the business that used the loan even though that may be doing well. Often directors loans are nothing more than a g@mb1e that you get your money back with no mechanism for recovering your money if things go wrong, if that makes sense?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 26, 2021, 09:40:38 am
You seem to spend a whole lot of time and energy criticising the Trust and its supporters on this site but remarkably little time criticising the club's owners.  The owners are the story and it's quite a story.

If you had seen proof of payment what difference would it make to your view? Not a lot I suggest. I am sure you will continue with your Trust bashing. You are a sad case.

Digging this out from a few days ago and not directed at Upton Way especially but this for me lies at the heart of the problem, and I'm repeating myself again.
Without full evidence its going to be open to interpretation and opinion.
IF the Trust had full evidence of wrongdoing they should have presented it in full, not to the fans but to the relevant authorities. The fact they haven't implies two things....
1. They don't have any evidence of wrong doing
2. They just don't like the way the owners have conducted their business.

I've only seen from the Trust maybe about a third of the story. They received £6m (cant remember the exact figure) for selling the shares. What I haven't seen, and the bit they is open to interpretation is following the breakdown how much profit, or loss, did our owners make. Because it sure as sh1t isnt £6m (in my opinion, see interpretation). So what is it...?
How much did they pay in legal fees when it broke down to ensure the rebuy of shares we legitimate. What was the agreed buy back rate, what taxes, fees, bank rates did they incur? etc etc


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 26, 2021, 09:49:32 am
Can you explain to me why the consequence of the (any) debt is not an issue Melbourne in the business sense because I  struggle with this.
My brain stretches as far as understanding that if the club had no debt to speak of having been run prudently in the knowledge that it has no real assets to speak of there would likely be suitors out there willing to buy it off the current owners at a realistic price and that these suitors could range from anyone between a local estate agent and his mates to Sheikh Mansour, but because the current owners have run up a debt of 6 million on day to day costs when it was demonstrated by Cardoza that this need not be the case and that this debt to the current owners needs to be repaid to them before they are willing to sell even the Sheikh might think twice.
How can building up a debt in the name of day to day running costs which purchases nothing permanent be exactly how to run anything, ever? I only understand the business practice that involves speculating to accumulate by building something that has a permanency and a guaranteed return, no matter how small. I this case that would be stuff like the infrastructure of stands and boxes etc.
If you wanted to hold the council, the people of Northampton, the fans, and anyone else interested in the welfare of the club to ransom in the pursuit of a land deal which would make you millions richer, i do however absolutely understand the logic in building up an apparent massively unsustainable debt that can get passed off as 'necessary for running costs' in order to win a very high stakes game of poker. The slight of hand that some seem to be suggesting now being that actually no real personal debt has been accrued by the owners.
How to get from a promise of 4 million ring-fenced to complete the stand with no attaching clauses to where we are now. Is this what some people are having trouble with, I wonder?


It's a fair (if longwinded  ;)) challenge, CJ.

To frame it another way, though... do you think the club could have shaved, on average, close to £1m per year off its cash outflows and still be where it is now? I don't claim to know the answer, but I do know that's a big old gap to bridge with efficiency savings.

Edit: it is worth noting that the club was in significant debt during the Cardoza era, including before the council loan was drawn down. In fact, at June 2012 the net liabilities were c.£7.6m so greater than the latest set of accounts. Cardoza used to talk about getting close to breaking even, but the club weren't publicly issuing a P&L for most (or all, cba to check!) of his time at the helm.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 26, 2021, 09:52:07 am
If you had seen proof of payment what difference would it make to your view? Not a lot I suggest. I am sure you will continue with your Trust bashing. You are a sad case.

I can only speak for myself (although I don't think I'm alone), but it would make a very significant difference.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 26, 2021, 10:29:40 am
It strike me that at some point in your life you were starved of oxygen.
Letís see what happens.

Yet again complete failure to answer a question. Thank you for proving my statement about you as correct.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 10:40:19 am
It's a fair (if longwinded  ;)) challenge, CJ.

To frame it another way, though... do you think the club could have shaved, on average, close to £1m per year off its cash outflows and still be where it is now? I don't claim to know the answer, but I do know that's a big old gap to bridge with efficiency savings.

Edit: it is worth noting that the club was in significant debt during the Cardoza era, including before the council loan was drawn down. In fact, at June 2012 the net liabilities were c.£7.6m so greater than the latest set of accounts. Cardoza used to talk about getting close to breaking even, but the club weren't publicly issuing a P&L for most (or all, cba to check!) of his time at the helm.
I would also ask what the average ratio of losses to turnover there is for Div 1/2 clubs to truly evaluate if the owners are over/under performing in terms of their financial management. All I am seeing is subjective opinion at the moment. Any one want to have a crack?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on July 26, 2021, 12:03:31 pm
MC Hammer seems to be ITK so maybe he could answer the questions I posted a few days ago but got no reply. They are as follows:

 Question 1, have KT, DB or NTFC denied that what the Trust said about the Chinese money was true ?
 Question 2, the Trust have took a lot of stick for declining a Zoom meeting, which I personally think was a mistake, but KT has got off scot free for declining to provide written answers, aren't his actions exactly the same ? At least the Trust declined his offer, he didn't even reply to the Trust. What are people's opinion on this ?
 Question 3, Re the East Stand, NTFC said on 25th June 2021 "We are positive about the direction we are heading and felt confident enough that a few months ago we were able to commission these conceptual images to show both the council, supporters and stakeholders what we are trying to achieve with the East Stand". It is a know fact that the plans displayed at the Open Evening are over 5 years old, so isn't that statement a little misleading ?
 Question 4, Re the "Hatchet job" alleged in the leaked letter , isn't it likely that these papers that ran the story, got in touch with the Trust for a comment on the story, rather than the Trust ringing them and asking them to run the story ? This is the Mail and the Athletic we are talking about, not the Chron, where, I've heard that NTFC have been known to mention withdrawal of co-operation if some stories are run.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 26, 2021, 12:15:55 pm
I saw this the other day but bit my tongue because I knew I'd be accused of leaping to defend KT's honour again, but it's this sort of post that irks me a bit. So, as it's been repeated...

MC Hammer seems to be ITK so maybe he could answer the questions I posted a few days ago but got no reply. They are as follows:

 Question 1, have KT, DB or NTFC denied that what the Trust said about the Chinese money was true ?
No. But then nor have the Trust denied that they went to the press with bad intent. It cuts both ways, but sometimes it's better to say nothing than get involved in a petty spat.
 Question 2, the Trust have took a lot of stick for declining a Zoom meeting, which I personally think was a mistake, but KT has got off scot free for declining to provide written answers, aren't his actions exactly the same ? At least the Trust declined his offer, he didn't even reply to the Trust. What are people's opinion on this ?
Presumably he did reply to the Trust, or how else did he offer the Zoom meeting that they refused?
 Question 3, Re the East Stand, NTFC said on 25th June 2021 "We are positive about the direction we are heading and felt confident enough that a few months ago we were able to commission these conceptual images to show both the council, supporters and stakeholders what we are trying to achieve with the East Stand". It is a know fact that the plans displayed at the Open Evening are over 5 years old, so isn't that statement a little misleading ?
No idea. Do we definitely "know" they are over 5 years old? That's a genuine question by the way, I haven't seen where that has been proven beyond the odd person saying they look the same as ones that other people saw years ago.
 Question 4, Re the "Hatchet job" alleged in the leaked letter , isn't it likely that these papers that ran the story, got in touch with the Trust for a comment on the story, rather than the Trust ringing them and asking them to run the story ? This is the Mail and the Athletic we are talking about, not the Chron, where, I've heard that NTFC have been known to mention withdrawal of co-operation if some stories are run.
Utter supposition.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 12:30:01 pm
As an example CJ when we started our business over here I put in my own money in the form of a loan. If the business does well I get my money back. If it doesnít Iíve done my money and thatís it. If I borrow the money from a bank, they can pull the plug if they feel itís appropriate and I have little control over that. I would have also probably have put up collateral against the loan so the bank will use that to recoup its money. Therefore under a directors loan you retain full control over whatís going on with the finance of that loan, when getting a loan from an institution you hand an element of control over to them where they get to choose when to pull the plug and what assets to sell as a result often at significant consequence. Also if you are putting up assets from another business as security and that goes belly up they may pull the plug on the business that used the loan even though that may be doing well. Often directors loans are nothing more than a g@mb1e that you get your money back with no mechanism for recovering your money if things go wrong, if that makes sense?
Thanks Melbourne, I do understand the mechanisms you describe but that wasn't really my point.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 26, 2021, 12:41:02 pm
Hi Melly, Just had a look and it's a mine field. Some clubs don't issue P&L's, most don't list fixed assets in the millions, like we do. Some have had cup runs or players sales to turn losses to profits etc

Accounts only show a small piece of the picture, it is there if you look hard enough but you also need to look at the business itself, what the trend is, what's coming up around the corner etc.

Generally we all know that most football clubs are badly run and are either:

1. the plaything of their owners, who eventually write off their losses and sail off into the sunset.  - usually for PR purposes, to raise their or their company profile
2. there as they love the club / community,
3. because they want to control the assets within the football club (usually land), and the higher you go up the leagues the more money you lose. (perhaps why we are in L2  ;D)

The worse one for me is the 3. They are there just for their own benefit.  With all honesty, which one are our owners?

Supporters of 1 & 2 can and will go through periods of success and heartache but at least something is happening

The issue for me has always been the potential of NTFC, big catchment area, the history, lack of big, big clubs nearby, central location within the country, 25 acres of land, - all more than enough to support a modest Championship club. At least with 1 & 2 there is a chance this might happen.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 26, 2021, 12:44:04 pm
Yet again complete failure to answer a question. Thank you for proving my statement about you as correct.
Keep calling me a twŗt says a whole lot more about you than me pal.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 26, 2021, 12:44:44 pm
Digging this out from a few days ago and not directed at Upton Way especially but this for me lies at the heart of the problem, and I'm repeating myself again.
Without full evidence its going to be open to interpretation and opinion.
IF the Trust had full evidence of wrongdoing they should have presented it in full, not to the fans but to the relevant authorities. The fact they haven't implies two things....
1. They don't have any evidence of wrong doing
2. They just don't like the way the owners have conducted their business.

I've only seen from the Trust maybe about a third of the story. They received £6m (cant remember the exact figure) for selling the shares. What I haven't seen, and the bit they is open to interpretation is following the breakdown how much profit, or loss, did our owners make. Because it sure as sh1t isnt £6m (in my opinion, see interpretation). So what is it...?
How much did they pay in legal fees when it broke down to ensure the rebuy of shares we legitimate. What was the agreed buy back rate, what taxes, fees, bank rates did they incur? etc etc
How do you know that they havenít?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 12:45:04 pm
Thanks Melbourne, I do understand the mechanisms you describe but that wasn't really my point.
Sorry mate, with regards to your other point I kind of stated this in another post below. Whilst I havenít checked the actual figures they seem to be adding 25% of turnover onto the debt per annum, which seems pretty average on face value. I stand to be corrected though.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 26, 2021, 12:48:28 pm
BOTN, so receiving £6.8m and selling the club without telling anyone,  is just the same in your book, as the Trust supposedly talking to the National media, that our club's owners sold the club for £6.8m to unknown Chinese investors, who run a very very small business, without telling anyone?

Thats why you get accused of support KT, please show me where you have questioned or raised concerns about this or anything else regarding KT/DB bad running of our club



 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 12:50:28 pm
Hi Melly, Just had a look and it's a mine field. Some clubs don't issue P&L's, most don't list fixed assets in the millions, like we do. Some have had cup runs or players sales to turn losses to profits etc

Accounts only show a small piece of the picture, it is there if you look hard enough but you also need to look at the business itself, what the trend is, what's coming up around the corner etc.

Generally we all know that most football clubs are badly run and are either:

1. the plaything of their owners, who eventually write off their losses and sail off into the sunset.  - usually for PR purposes, to raise their or their company profile
2. there as they love the club / community,
3. because they want to control the assets within the football club (usually land), and the higher you go up the leagues the more money you lose. (perhaps why we are in L2  ;D)

The worse one for me is the 3. They are there just for their own benefit.  With all honesty, which one are our owners?

Supporters of 1 & 2 can and will go through periods of success and heartache but at least something is happening

The issue for me has always been the potential of NTFC, big catchment area, the history, lack of big, big clubs nearby, central location within the country, 25 acres of land, - all more than enough to support a modest Championship club. At least with 1 & 2 there is a chance this might happen.


Itís a fair point. For me itís a bit chicken and egg though mate. Do you develop the ground to entice more support and progress, or do it to accommodate the extra demand and a a result of progress. IMO thatís subjective and is probably one of the main reasons that everyone on here spends so much time arguing.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: West Stand on July 26, 2021, 12:51:46 pm
MC Hammer seems to be ITK so maybe he could answer the questions I posted a few days ago but got no reply. They are as follows:

 Question 1, have KT, DB or NTFC denied that what the Trust said about the Chinese money was true ?
 Question 2, the Trust have took a lot of stick for declining a Zoom meeting, which I personally think was a mistake, but KT has got off scot free for declining to provide written answers, aren't his actions exactly the same ? At least the Trust declined his offer, he didn't even reply to the Trust. What are people's opinion on this ?
 Question 3, Re the East Stand, NTFC said on 25th June 2021 "We are positive about the direction we are heading and felt confident enough that a few months ago we were able to commission these conceptual images to show both the council, supporters and stakeholders what we are trying to achieve with the East Stand". It is a know fact that the plans displayed at the Open Evening are over 5 years old, so isn't that statement a little misleading ?
 Question 4, Re the "Hatchet job" alleged in the leaked letter , isn't it likely that these papers that ran the story, got in touch with the Trust for a comment on the story, rather than the Trust ringing them and asking them to run the story ? This is the Mail and the Athletic we are talking about, not the Chron, where, I've heard that NTFC have been known to mention withdrawal of co-operation if some stories are run.


Someone will have fed them the story, they wouldn't have found it off their own back.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 13:01:36 pm
It's a fair (if longwinded  ;)) challenge, CJ.

To frame it another way, though... do you think the club could have shaved, on average, close to £1m per year off its cash outflows and still be where it is now? I don't claim to know the answer, but I do know that's a big old gap to bridge with efficiency savings.

Edit: it is worth noting that the club was in significant debt during the Cardoza era, including before the council loan was drawn down. In fact, at June 2012 the net liabilities were c.£7.6m so greater than the latest set of accounts. Cardoza used to talk about getting close to breaking even, but the club weren't publicly issuing a P&L for most (or all, cba to check!) of his time at the helm.
You're probably right about the longwinded bit  :D

I'm not aware of the correct figures surrounding spending and budgets during the Cardoza years but my memory of it is that they initially splashed the cash expecting to be able to buy promotion and then stay in a higher league and when this didn't happen and we ended up back where we came from they tightened the purse strings demonstrating in doing so that we could be a self sustaining or almost self sustaining league club. There's probably a clue to be had in looking at those league two clubs that are smaller in terms of turnover than us to see what can be achieved currently on smaller budgets? It may not be a million pound saving a year but I can't help but think that our spending in the past six years has been more profligate than prudent.
Could they have kept us where we are (a professional league club) restricted the losses to 2 million and spent what they 'promised' to on the stand in doing so currying sufficien favour with the necessary parties to get themselves this land deal?
I think on balance most interested parties would have at least been happier with that approach.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 13:09:40 pm
Iíve touched on this before but thereís some basic stats about EFL finances here Page 24 onwards.

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/uk/Documents/sports-business-group/deloitte-uk-annual-review-of-football-finance-2020.pdf


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 26, 2021, 13:10:03 pm
MC Hammer seems to be ITK so maybe he could answer the questions I posted a few days ago but got no reply. They are as follows:

 Question 1, have KT, DB or NTFC denied that what the Trust said about the Chinese money was true ?
 Question 2, the Trust have took a lot of stick for declining a Zoom meeting, which I personally think was a mistake, but KT has got off scot free for declining to provide written answers, aren't his actions exactly the same ? At least the Trust declined his offer, he didn't even reply to the Trust. What are people's opinion on this ?
 Question 3, Re the East Stand, NTFC said on 25th June 2021 "We are positive about the direction we are heading and felt confident enough that a few months ago we were able to commission these conceptual images to show both the council, supporters and stakeholders what we are trying to achieve with the East Stand". It is a know fact that the plans displayed at the Open Evening are over 5 years old, so isn't that statement a little misleading ?
 Question 4, Re the "Hatchet job" alleged in the leaked letter , isn't it likely that these papers that ran the story, got in touch with the Trust for a comment on the story, rather than the Trust ringing them and asking them to run the story ? This is the Mail and the Athletic we are talking about, not the Chron, where, I've heard that NTFC have been known to mention withdrawal of co-operation if some stories are run.

I'm flattered.  However if I really was that much ITK I wouldn't be having to ask all these questions would I?  Funny thing is you were on the Trust Board for many years and are therefore far more likely ITK than me.

I didn't answer cause they were pretty random questions that I'm not really sure add anything we don't already know.  However happy to do so if you do the same.

1. No they haven't that I'm aware of.  Or maybe they have? I don't get to see the "closed" correspondence or the secret meetings the Trust held with him when they asked him about so I don't know.  Maybe you know as this all happened around the time you were still on the board?  What did he say at the time?

2. Did he get of scot free?  I see plenty of people criticising him for not answering you being one of them.  The Trust publicly removed their support and wrote to the council as well so it's hardly like he's not been impacted.  I would also challenge whether he didn't respond.  He just didn't respond in the form the Trust were insisting on which even you admit you thought was a mistake.

3. Not sure what the issue is here and what you have a problem with.  I'm assuming by conceptual images he means the photographic style ones that show how the front and back of the stadium will look.  Are you saying you had seen these before and they are 5 years old?  Sorry struggling with this one as I'm not sure what issue you have with this anyway and why others would be concerned.

4. You can probably answer this question far better than me.  In fact I'd be suprised if you didn't know the actual answer as some of this stuff definitely happened while you were still on the board.  KT was pretty clear in his allegations that the Trust or representatives on their behalf were approaching media outlets with this information not the way you describe it?  He also said he had evidence to back this up.  So did they?  

In fact let me put this scenario to you and you can comment as I answered your questions.  If a Supporters Trust organisation came about information of potential financial wrong doing by the clubs owners what do you think they should do?  Approach the press?  Report to the relevant authorities?  Approach the owners directly?  And if they did any or all of the previous at what stage should their membership be informed?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 26, 2021, 13:20:53 pm
How do you know that they havenít?
You've proven my point.
I / we dont so its opinion and assumption based on my own interpretations of what has been released.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 26, 2021, 13:21:43 pm
How do you know that they havenít?

Do you know whether they have or haven't reported something?  Not trying to throw you under the bus here.  None of us know because they won't tell us whether they have or not.  In fact they won't even tell you if they even have a problem with any of it.  It's fairly clear they do as they wrote to KT last summer saying something.  We just don't know what because we are not allowed to know.  Open and honest remember the mantra.  According to them they are "just stating facts" and allowing individuals to "draw their own conclusions".

Frankly I don't understand why you or any other supporter would be comfortable with this kind of approach from an organisation that is representing you.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on July 26, 2021, 13:57:09 pm


1. No they haven't that I'm aware of.  I wondered if I had missed it, so they haven't disputed it ?

2. Did he get of scot free?  I see plenty of people criticising him for not answering you being one of them.  The Trust publicly removed their support and wrote to the council as well so it's hardly like he's not been impacted.  I would also challenge whether he didn't respond.  He just didn't respond in the form the Trust were insisting on which even you admit you thought was a mistake.I thought it was a mistake by the Trust and NTFC but on here KT has received very little criticism compared to what the Trust has

3. Not sure what the issue is here and what you have a problem with.  I'm assuming by conceptual images he means the photographic style ones that show how the front and back of the stadium will look.  Are you saying you had seen these before and they are 5 years old?  Sorry struggling with this one as I'm not sure what issue you have with this anyway and why others would be concerned.So you don't think  NTFC were attempting to give the impression that the Open Evening was to discuss the "progress" of the East Stand ? 

4. You can probably answer this question far better than me.  In fact I'd be suprised if you didn't know the actual answer as some of this stuff definitely happened while you were still on the board.  KT was pretty clear in his allegations that the Trust or representatives on their behalf were approaching media outlets with this information not the way you describe it?  He also said he had evidence to back this up.  So did they?  There were no allegations from the Trust board whilst I was on there.

In fact let me put this scenario to you and you can comment as I answered your questions.  If a Supporters Trust organisation came about information of potential financial wrong doing by the clubs owners what do you think they should do?  Approach the press?  Report to the relevant authorities?  Approach the owners directly?  And if they did any or all of the previous at what stage should their membership be informed?You've said yourself that the Trust were in contact with KT, but I haven't seen anyone being accused of "Financial wrong doing" As far as I can see the Trust have put figures out there, NTFC have not denied them, so it's up to everyone to make up their own minds.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 26, 2021, 14:32:34 pm
Do you know whether they have or haven't reported something?  Not trying to throw you under the bus here.  None of us know because they won't tell us whether they have or not.  In fact they won't even tell you if they even have a problem with any of it.  It's fairly clear they do as they wrote to KT last summer saying something.  We just don't know what because we are not allowed to know.  Open and honest remember the mantra.  According to them they are "just stating facts" and allowing individuals to "draw their own conclusions".

Frankly I don't understand why you or any other supporter would be comfortable with this kind of approach from an organisation that is representing you.
Again I think thatís a question for the Trust, I fully agree that the trust could be a bit more inclusive and transparent BUT these meetings are highly confidential and probably commercial sensitive so most likely under NDA therefore not for public consumption.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 26, 2021, 14:33:20 pm
Unless I've missed something that report uses a very broad brush stroke. The two figures which stand out for me are the average league two playing wage bill of 3 million and the average turnover per club of 4 million.
Do we really have a wave bill of 3 million? Take out 500k out and give the rest to the 22 senior pros and you average wages for them become 113k pa each.  Am I being naive about something here, they don't get awarded that much on average do they? I fully accept that football is in the **** financially generally but that's like saying your average aussie drinks 30 units (or however many) per week and extrapolating from that they all do. That average is not representative in terms of the effect it'll have on the health of those boring fckuers who don't drink at all, but reading a similar statistical average you might believe that all Aussie male are living ten years less than they should because they are fcuking their livers and any other organs that care to join in.
There will be examples within the 24 league two clubs I'm sure of ones who's wage ratio to turnover is nothing like 75%. Shouldn't we be taking a lesson  from their book?
And the other thing I think people are forgetting is that DB took control of this club not for ego or because he's a fan, he took over because he wanted to turn a profit in the form of a land deal, so why has he let his chairman and ceo get away with such a flagrant overspend when all that was needed on his account was league status?

With respect, CJ, this last bit of your post is symptomatic of the second biggest problem in the way this debate is being conducted. I'm not having a go at you personally but there are a couple of themes that dictate we're all just going round in circles.

The #1 biggest problem is one lots of other posters have touched on - absolutism. The second is something you've just done and it's also common elsewhere on social media: the tendency to say whatever one likes with no sense of duty to justify or back it up.

Who says there is an overspend? Who says it is flagrant? That is based on your own assumptions & calculations and, by your own admission, you are no expert.

Who says all the current ownership wants is to maintain league status? I would say there is significant evidence to the contrary and, even if that is their sole aim, to drop to the most shoestring business model out there would seem to me to be a very risky strategy indeed. You might even call it reckless - just like spending £1m more each year than 'you really need to'?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 26, 2021, 14:43:00 pm
With respect, CJ, this last bit of your post is symptomatic of the second biggest problem in the way this debate is being conducted. I'm not having a go at you personally but there are a couple of themes that dictate we're all just going round in circles.

The #1 biggest problem is one lots of other posters have touched on - absolutism. The second is something you've just done and it's also common elsewhere on social media: the tendency to say whatever one likes with no sense of duty to justify or back it up.

Who says there is an overspend? Who says it is flagrant? That is based on your own assumptions & calculations and, by your own admission, you are no expert.

Who says all the current ownership wants is to maintain league status? I would say there is significant evidence to the contrary and, even if that is their sole aim, to drop to the most shoestring business model out there would seem to me to be a very risky strategy indeed. You might even call it reckless - just like spending £1m more each year than 'you really need to'?

Please Please Please show us the evidence.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 26, 2021, 14:48:11 pm
Again I think thatís a question for the Trust, I fully agree that the trust could be a bit more inclusive and transparent BUT these meetings are highly confidential and probably commercial sensitive so most likely under NDA therefore not for public consumption.
Tongue in cheek, you called me James a few times... now you sound like Kelvin  ;) ;D :P


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 26, 2021, 14:59:18 pm
Please Please Please show us the evidence.



 ;D ...it's a bit disingenuous but I take your point.

The most recent piece of evidence that springs to mind is the decision to sack Curle. As owner, if all you cared about was staying in the football league, why would you sack (and pay up) a manager just because they looked like getting you relegated from L1?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 26, 2021, 15:20:55 pm
good answer Parrot,  I expect to appease and keep the fans on board  -  as he needs them in his deal with WNC

The appointment in itself demonstrates the lack of ambition - Curle had never achieve promotion and was hardly an upcoming, unproven manager

Don't understand giving him a 2 year deal on promotion in June, then not supporting him enough in January to sack him in February. 6 managers in 6 years tells its own story, 1 common dominator - KT
 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 15:22:04 pm
With respect, CJ, this last bit of your post is symptomatic of the second biggest problem in the way this debate is being conducted. I'm not having a go at you personally but there are a couple of themes that dictate we're all just going round in circles.

The #1 biggest problem is one lots of other posters have touched on - absolutism. The second is something you've just done and it's also common elsewhere on social media: the tendency to say whatever one likes with no sense of duty to justify or back it up.

Who says there is an overspend? Who says it is flagrant? That is based on your own assumptions & calculations and, by your own admission, you are no expert.

Who says all the current ownership wants is to maintain league status? I would say there is significant evidence to the contrary and, even if that is their sole aim, to drop to the most shoestring business model out there would seem to me to be a very risky strategy indeed. You might even call it reckless - just like spending £1m more each year than 'you really need to'?
Non taken Parrot.
OK so I don't know that all the current ownership want to do is maintain league status but I'm as certain  as I need to be to know that the owner is not here for egotistical or philanthropic reasons, would you agree? What else is he here for then, is it not safe to assume that he invested in NTFC as a going concern in order to make himself wealthier and considerably so, given the overt risk involved? Why therefore it is not also safe to assume that he would want to work to best business practice by minimising losses rather than spunk money arbitrarily in a vain attempt at on field success? What commercial sense does that make? He is a very successful businessman.
I can only see any merit from our club owners point of view of increasing losses beyond necessary if it is done as a method of upping the anti and therefore pressure on the council and other involved parties to get them to agree to a deal because the consequences of no deal is no club, or if it has been achieved by incompetence. Those for me are the two options. The fact the average league two club has operating losses of 1million pa is a red herring. If I was standing in DB's shoes I would see average as failure.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 26, 2021, 15:28:22 pm
Non taken Parrot.
OK so I don't know that all the current ownership want to do is maintain league status but I'm as certain  as I need to be to know that the owner is not here for egotistical or philanthropic reasons, would you agree? What else is he here for then, is it not safe to assume that he invested in NTFC as a going concern in order to make himself wealthier and considerably so, given the overt risk involved? Why therefore it is not also safe to assume that he would want to work to best business practice by minimising losses rather than spunk money arbitrarily in a vain attempt at on field success? What commercial sense does that make? He is a very successful businessman.
I can only see any merit from our club owners point of view of increasing losses beyond necessary if it is done as a method of upping the anti and therefore pressure on the council and other involved parties to get them to agree to a deal because the consequences of no deal is no club, or if it has been achieved by incompetence. Those for me are the two options. The fact the average league two club has operating losses of 1million pa is a red herring. If I was standing in DB's shoes I would see average as failure.

Why are they mutually exclusive? If the figures that have been chucked around on here, and the evil schemes afoot for KT/DB to extract the whole lot, are anything near accurate then they can lose a fair chunk having a crack at on-field success for fun and still walk away well up on the deal.

Let's be absolutely clear, if these guys cared about their pockets and nothing else, they wouldn't be here and nor would their money. That is unless they're thick as pig s**t, and I suspect your guess on that front would be the same as mine.

None of this means I think the sun shines out their backsides or that I'm happy with the stand etc. etc. It's just reality as I see it.

As an aside, that £3m wages figure in the Deloitte report is all club staff and includes signing-on fees, bonuses, other benefits and employers' NI. So your £113k will be very toppy if you're trying to get to an average first team salary.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 26, 2021, 15:30:05 pm
good answer Parrot,  I expect to appease and keep the fans on board  -  as he needs them in his deal with WNC

The appointment in itself demonstrates the lack of ambition - Curle had never achieve promotion and was hardly an upcoming, unproven manager

Don't understand giving him a 2 year deal on promotion in June, then not supporting him enough in January to sack him in February. 6 managers in 6 years tells its own story, 1 common dominator - KT
 
Absolutely correct, what is also a common factor is the willingness pay-off managers and replace tem, hardly the actions of someone who doesn't care about the club. However being the old cynic I am I do wonder if the change in managers and hopefully pushing us straight back up is more of a way to make the club more attractive to prespective buyers? though I'm not sure if being a league higher would command a higher price.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 26, 2021, 15:33:25 pm
good answer Parrot,  I expect to appease and keep the fans on board  -  as he needs them in his deal with WNC

The appointment in itself demonstrates the lack of ambition - Curle had never achieve promotion and was hardly an upcoming, unproven manager

Don't understand giving him a 2 year deal on promotion in June, then not supporting him enough in January to sack him in February. 6 managers in 6 years tells its own story, 1 common dominator - KT
 

Nice spin, but I was talking about the specific claim that all they want is to keep the club in the football league until their pockets are full. I wasn't saying KT has risen to save us all.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 26, 2021, 15:41:45 pm
So apparently we are down to the situation where the Trust have put stuff out there just so we can make our own minds up. Apparently, that was their only motivation. WellÖ Thank you for drawing our attention to something that has been in the public domain forever. But if donít mind, Iím going to join the other 99.9% of the support base, who donít give a fcukÖ.  ;D ;D





Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 15:59:32 pm
Why are they mutually exclusive? If the figures that have been chucked around on here, and the evil schemes afoot for KT/DB to extract the whole lot, are anything near accurate then they can lose a fair chunk having a crack at on-field success for fun and still walk away well up on the deal.

Let's be absolutely clear, if these guys cared about their pockets and nothing else, they wouldn't be here and nor would their money. That is unless they're thick as pig s**t, and I suspect your guess on that front would be the same as mine.

None of this means I think the sun shines out their backsides or that I'm happy with the stand etc. etc. It's just reality as I see it.

As an aside, that £3m wages figure in the Deloitte report is all club staff and includes signing-on fees, bonuses, other benefits and employers' NI. So your £113k will be very toppy if you're trying to get to an average first team salary.
They obviously needn't be and if it were the last father and son pair of encumbents I'd say there was some sense in that. I don't see DB that way though his profile isn't high enough for that for me. Just my opinion though
I disagree with your point that if they cared only for their pockets they wouldn't be here. Their decision to be here in the case of DB will have rested purely on his take on things from a business opportunity. Nothing else would have come into it. He isn't here to shake hands, make friends, or sponsor a football team unless that is what is needed to get his deal.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 26, 2021, 16:15:09 pm
So apparently we are down to the situation where the Trust have put stuff out there just so we can make our own minds up. Apparently, that was their only motivation. WellÖ Thank you for drawing our attention to something that has been in the public domain forever. But if donít mind, Iím going to join the other 99.9% of the support base, who donít give a fcukÖ.  ;D ;D




34 pages and counting says they do Tel.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 26, 2021, 16:16:14 pm
Tongue in cheek, you called me James a few times... now you sound like Kelvin  ;) ;D :P
Haha very good mate, come into my office and Iíll give you a pay rise.😉


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 26, 2021, 16:19:55 pm
Haha very good mate, come into my office and Iíll give you a pay rise.😉
:o


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 16:20:55 pm
So apparently we are down to the situation where the Trust have put stuff out there just so we can make our own minds up. Apparently, that was their only motivation. WellÖ Thank you for drawing our attention to something that has been in the public domain forever. But if donít mind, Iím going to join the other 99.9% of the support base, who donít give a fcukÖ.  ;D ;D




It might have been in your domain forever but then you are clearly a special supporter Tel, afforded privileges the common fan isn't. Not doing social media and only learning what I do from here, the official site, and the Trust site I have learnt stuff in the past month that I was previously unaware of, and yes, just like a release from an impartial media outlet I'm pleased that there hasn't been too much opinion from the Trust just information that they regard as being important for the masses to be made aware of.





Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 26, 2021, 16:21:32 pm
They obviously needn't be and if it were the last father and son pair of encumbents I'd say there was some sense I that. I don't see DB that way though his profile isn't high enough for that for me. Just my opinion though
I disagree with your point that if they cared only for their pockets they wouldn't be here. Their decision to be here in the case of DB will have rested purely on his take on things from a business optunity. Nothing else would have come into it. He isn't here to shake hands, make friends, or sponsor a football team unless that is what is needed to get his deal.


Yeah who knows, you might well be right.

If I was looking for somewhere to turn my 6, 7 or 10 mil into something a lot bigger, though, a football club would be very close to the bottom of my list. Land or no land.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 26, 2021, 16:27:51 pm
Yeah who knows, you might well be right.

If I was looking for somewhere to turn my 6, 7 or 10 mil into something a lot bigger, though, a football club would be very close to the bottom of my list. Land or no land.
I think they badly piööed off the council by taking the land leases from under the councils nose.
To the hard of thinking KT comes across as a silver younger entrepreneur, however to the business astute he comes across as a petulant child thatís always got his way.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 26, 2021, 16:29:59 pm
34 pages and counting says they do Tel.

34 pages of a few people regurgitating the same stuffÖ You wait until the first ball is kicked. If we went on a decent run our support wouldnít care if Cardoza, McRitchie and Jimmy Saville were on the board..


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 16:32:45 pm
They obviously needn't be and if it were the last father and son pair of encumbents I'd say there was some sense in that. I don't see DB that way though his profile isn't high enough for that for me. Just my opinion though
I disagree with your point that if they cared only for their pockets they wouldn't be here. Their decision to be here in the case of DB will have rested purely on his take on things from a business opportunity. Nothing else would have come into it. He isn't here to shake hands, make friends, or sponsor a football team unless that is what is needed to get his deal.

CJ, following on from your earlier posts about salaries etc page 2 of the latest filed tax return puts the figure at a shade under 4 million. Page 12 claims there are 287 employees at the club. As they are abbreviated returns which is all that is required there is not much detail. I would imagine the 4 million figure would include paying off managers contracts such as JFH if it fell into the relevant time frame?

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/s6JjcgV-LTRLQ6n8Z2veiPQIcH2e-ZrG35bvagJkViM/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3H6QQL5WV%2F20210726%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20210726T152433Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjED4aCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQCWjUU21cxp0dDho4kvIONQgxdIasddUQtKq9tVw0XJRQIhAOJClAE7eDczOC4ytDAil2aiPPPW1iUxDOFTa%2Fh8063xKvoDCEcQAxoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgyAM63wYDsmJdmUmDYq1wO2Y1nhLGiGSgXv5uQ2VW4pZfw5zbe7gRtjPSnmpHUQOpYSScx6wzgwejtvtKwMw9%2BWGv6usnF%2BT5dfO2edXZKFmL6BBkdjGRXWB18yplmYDehfk%2Fd8s4P9vblajXGJvVeOQnuUD%2FPnFJeibMttezShMfd0SVA7tzRISIrV43pa7F3bq%2BxGXuGGqHdHPSCuw50yF%2F6TFGBTKlvThE%2BvGoFi7XemLIynTxq6bOjyXWxW2dJl3mEjqXcJstESC%2FYbfo44qkcKoKVJc%2BSRivXXYHoNg8iiw8Ea18eAf0XhyyHKG4CotrMguMWnE2gUZG4d6eTNV85XsBZXzwlDawKdeU0eFswSpM6Ux6AhF6zKACE%2B9SZ5USUg%2Fk%2FZKjTpie87BrGjpnMZknuHsjcqt%2FozYekaROqjfN3dPEKljrLjEos31FwyPQkrjPtP4QIZPkYmvSo%2FEkm3cwEN8UDt3KGidFRYnMj1IfjB3FbkFXfCN%2Fnqs8jCeLuPe%2FjXCBGBFfG0x7fEYWZnWlEJK3N8RV%2FUnaW2Qeden0cR33PuN3BDcmXfVM9fyzPdsgQ1%2FAg%2B9kB15X8hPVtkzkgstNqx9N8fW9ljmh5IimGj17KumsdHfrTSOeCSCOkPL1Ewp%2Fv6hwY6pAFMWMCGnpnNvfyyUp3e5RWu7AUeTcX367GLzfBy8rI9H0dYN5Wp2uJm4JX6isCtmWRgvjwh9dcKu9MTMzprT2HGueaq%2FULTlOqHbL8O8ckivQb0ZaoXcw2TBjnEoeAuZhD3uHLoVbYaEISD4adWzuK63lroZB9qr9FgptkdrS%2FlCYCj5e7ix%2B9hyVCjpknyHjO1OOmt%2BauNIJ11M5RkCbZ3bF%2BhcA%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22companies_house_document.pdf%22&X-Amz-Signature=79e7c925a2dd4d6bc608a82d78f22df81aadcb4180957bf45e781e0f6caaabbb


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 16:32:58 pm
Yeah who knows, you might well be right.

If I was looking for somewhere to turn my 6, 7 or 10 mil into something a lot bigger, though, a football club would be very close to the bottom of my list. Land or no land.
I too would not be risking money on a project with as many potential pitfalls as there seems to have been.
Then I suppose it depends on how it was sold to DB who sold it to him, how much confidence and trust he had in them (an awful lot at the time I expect!), and importantly how much diligence was done by him.
Maybe the lesson to be had is don't fcuk around with stuff that you aren't entirely at one with and especially deals that have a social aspect attaching to them like community football clubs, Irrespective of the apparent riches to be gained.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 26, 2021, 16:33:31 pm
I'm pleased that there hasn't been too much opinion from the Trust just information that they regard as being important for the masses to be made aware of.


There are no masses. Just a few sorts who caught a minnow and talked it up as a whale. As I said.. Idle hands and minds.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 16:36:16 pm
There are no masses. Just a few sorts who caught a minnow and talked it up as a whale. As I said.. Idle hands and minds.
Said he with by far the greatest post count on any thread relevant to this subject.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 16:42:20 pm
CJ, following on from your earlier posts about salaries etc page 2 of the latest filed tax return puts the figure at a shade under 4 million. Page 12 claims there are 287 employees at the club. As they are abbreviated returns which is all that is required there is not much detail. I would imagine the 4 million figure would include paying off managers contracts such as JFH if it fell into the relevant time frame?

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/s6JjcgV-LTRLQ6n8Z2veiPQIcH2e-ZrG35bvagJkViM/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3H6QQL5WV%2F20210726%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20210726T152433Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjED4aCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQCWjUU21cxp0dDho4kvIONQgxdIasddUQtKq9tVw0XJRQIhAOJClAE7eDczOC4ytDAil2aiPPPW1iUxDOFTa%2Fh8063xKvoDCEcQAxoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgyAM63wYDsmJdmUmDYq1wO2Y1nhLGiGSgXv5uQ2VW4pZfw5zbe7gRtjPSnmpHUQOpYSScx6wzgwejtvtKwMw9%2BWGv6usnF%2BT5dfO2edXZKFmL6BBkdjGRXWB18yplmYDehfk%2Fd8s4P9vblajXGJvVeOQnuUD%2FPnFJeibMttezShMfd0SVA7tzRISIrV43pa7F3bq%2BxGXuGGqHdHPSCuw50yF%2F6TFGBTKlvThE%2BvGoFi7XemLIynTxq6bOjyXWxW2dJl3mEjqXcJstESC%2FYbfo44qkcKoKVJc%2BSRivXXYHoNg8iiw8Ea18eAf0XhyyHKG4CotrMguMWnE2gUZG4d6eTNV85XsBZXzwlDawKdeU0eFswSpM6Ux6AhF6zKACE%2B9SZ5USUg%2Fk%2FZKjTpie87BrGjpnMZknuHsjcqt%2FozYekaROqjfN3dPEKljrLjEos31FwyPQkrjPtP4QIZPkYmvSo%2FEkm3cwEN8UDt3KGidFRYnMj1IfjB3FbkFXfCN%2Fnqs8jCeLuPe%2FjXCBGBFfG0x7fEYWZnWlEJK3N8RV%2FUnaW2Qeden0cR33PuN3BDcmXfVM9fyzPdsgQ1%2FAg%2B9kB15X8hPVtkzkgstNqx9N8fW9ljmh5IimGj17KumsdHfrTSOeCSCOkPL1Ewp%2Fv6hwY6pAFMWMCGnpnNvfyyUp3e5RWu7AUeTcX367GLzfBy8rI9H0dYN5Wp2uJm4JX6isCtmWRgvjwh9dcKu9MTMzprT2HGueaq%2FULTlOqHbL8O8ckivQb0ZaoXcw2TBjnEoeAuZhD3uHLoVbYaEISD4adWzuK63lroZB9qr9FgptkdrS%2FlCYCj5e7ix%2B9hyVCjpknyHjO1OOmt%2BauNIJ11M5RkCbZ3bF%2BhcA%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22companies_house_document.pdf%22&X-Amz-Signature=79e7c925a2dd4d6bc608a82d78f22df81aadcb4180957bf45e781e0f6caaabbb
Sounds interesting Melbourne but I can't open the file on my phone. Maybe that's my phone though?
I heard, from the back row of the North stand during the time frame of Jimmy's tenure, that he was on 17k a week. Information (just like that released by the club and the Trust) that I considered and came to the conclusion without any help from others, that I couldn't believe. I could only come up with the following reason for being told Jimbo was on that amount, and that was that my informant was mixing up weeks with months or another more appropriate payment period.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 16:45:34 pm
Sounds interesting Melbourne but I can't open the file on my phone. Maybe that's my phone though?
I heard, from the back row of the North stand during the time frame of Jimmy's tenure, that he was on 17k a week. Information (just like that released by the club and the Trust) that I considered and came to the conclusion without any help from others, that I didn't believe. I could only come up with the following reason for being told Jimbo was on that amount, and that was that my informant was mixing up weeks with months or another more appropriate payment period.
Try this mate, type Northampton Town Football club into the search bar click on the link and then filing history. The latest accounts are the second file down.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/?_ga=2.128060228.956663996.1627264571-934789128.1627264571


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 26, 2021, 16:51:04 pm
Said he with by far the greatest post count on any thread relevant to this subject.

WellÖ. Thatís total desperate bolloxs..   ;D ;D.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 16:57:31 pm
Try this mate, type Northampton Town Football club into the search bar click on the link and then filing history. The latest accounts are the second file down.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/?_ga=2.128060228.956663996.1627264571-934789128.1627264571

If you go through the filing history of the Cardozas they donít submit any actual figures at all so itís difficult to draw comparisons on any level.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 26, 2021, 17:18:01 pm
If you go through the filing history of the Cardozas they donít submit any actual figures at all so itís difficult to draw comparisons on any level.
Nothing between them, both talked the talk, both wracked up a massive debt, both will leave us in the shÔt and both dreaming of big land deals.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 26, 2021, 17:20:52 pm
Said he with by far the greatest post count on any thread relevant to this subject.
Spot on.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 17:21:35 pm
If you go through the filing history of the Cardozas they donít submit any actual figures at all so itís difficult to draw comparisons on any level.
I can see that now Melbourne thanks. What's you best guess on the total wage bill on the playing side then, managers coaches physios etc etc all included then?
I don't see how they reach a figure of 287 employees though I remember reading that before. Can you explain that one? Ho does inflating the numbers of employees help with creative accountancy?
And what difference to the integrity of the football club would you say the academy and the education programmes make and is it self funding or does it require subsidising? If it does require subsidising it would be the first limb I would remove in DBs position, sorry to say.
How many actual administrative staff are there from James Whiting down, I wonder?

Damm sure they ought to be able to cover it all for two and six, said Mr Bower.  >:(


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 17:26:40 pm
I can see that now Melbourne thanks. What's you best guess on the total wage bill on the playing side then, managers coaches physios etc etc all included then?
I don't see how they reach a figure of 287 employees though I remember reading that before. Can you explain that one? Ho does inflating the numbers of employees help with creative accountancy?
And what difference to the integrity of the football club would you say the academy and the education programmes make and is it self funding or does it require subsidising? If it does require subsidising it would be the first limb I would remove in DBs position, sorry to say.
How many actual administrative staff are there from James Whiting down, I wonder?

Damm sure they ought to be able to cover it all for two and six, said Mr Bower.  >:(
Honestly mate absolutely no idea. The trouble with the Deloitte report as I stated and the abbreviated accounts as you have discovered/pointed out is that it gives you a generalised basic snap shot. Youíre not going to get that kind of detail anytime soon I would imagine.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 17:34:35 pm
Honestly mate absolutely no idea. The trouble with the Deloitte report as I stated and the abbreviated accounts as you have discovered/pointed out is that it gives you a generalised basic snap shot. Youíre not going to get that kind of detail anytime soon I would imagine.
Probably not, hence all the supposition.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 17:35:16 pm
I can see that now Melbourne thanks. What's you best guess on the total wage bill on the playing side then, managers coaches physios etc etc all included then?
I don't see how they reach a figure of 287 employees though I remember reading that before. Can you explain that one? Ho does inflating the numbers of employees help with creative accountancy?
And what difference to the integrity of the football club would you say the academy and the education programmes make and is it self funding or does it require subsidising? If it does require subsidising it would be the first limb I would remove in DBs position, sorry to say.
How many actual administrative staff are there from James Whiting down, I wonder?

Damm sure they ought to be able to cover it all for two and six, said Mr Bower.  >:(
Found this.

https://www.888sport.com/blog/league-two-salary

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/leaked-report-reveals-how-much-18169396


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 17:36:19 pm
WellÖ. Thatís total desperate bolloxs..   ;D ;D.
I was keeping it polite  ;)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 17:47:14 pm
Found this.

https://www.888sport.com/blog/league-two-salary

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/leaked-report-reveals-how-much-18169396
So using the figures of clubs that responded (14 out of 24 in league 2) it costs £2.5 million to maintain an average squad of 22 in league 2 plus bonuses and £5.5 million plus bonuses in League 1. According to this report anyway and bearing in mind not all clubs responded.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 26, 2021, 17:54:54 pm
I can see that now Melbourne thanks. What's you best guess on the total wage bill on the playing side then, managers coaches physios etc etc all included then?
I don't see how they reach a figure of 287 employees though I remember reading that before. Can you explain that one? Ho does inflating the numbers of employees help with creative accountancy?
And what difference to the integrity of the football club would you say the academy and the education programmes make and is it self funding or does it require subsidising? If it does require subsidising it would be the first limb I would remove in DBs position, sorry to say.
How many actual administrative staff are there from James Whiting down, I wonder?

Damm sure they ought to be able to cover it all for two and six, said Mr Bower.  >:(

It's impossible to break out the playing side without some huge assumptions. I just had a crack and didn't get anywhere close to sensible. Far more likely to see something accurate on articles like those posted by Melly above but even then you're not getting a complete picture.

As for the 287, I'm sure it's accurate. Would imagine the bulk of it is matchday staff working a very small number of hours - if they're agency I start to struggle with how it gets there.

The buckets I can think of are:

Playing staff
Coaching staff - first team, youth/academy, ladies, other (e.g. disability sides)
Support staff (e.g. kit man)
Medical staff
Recruitment team
Ground staff

Senior management (non-playing) - CEO, Secretary, Commercial Director etc.
Ticket Office
Club Shop
Media (Gareth W +)
Community
Chief Creative Accountant

Matchday catering
Stewards & security
Other matchday roles


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 17:56:46 pm
So using the figures of clubs that responded (14 out of 24 in league 2) it costs £2.5 million to maintain an average squad of 22 in league 2 plus bonuses and £5.5 million plus bonuses in League 1. According to this report anyway and bearing in mind not all clubs responded.
One final rough calculation, if their are 287 members of staff and and 22 players cost 2.5 million then 1.5 million is spread over 265 staff. 1.5 million divided by 265 divided by 12 means the average monthly salary of the remaining staff is £471 per month. This suggests the overwhelming majority of staff are part time match day employees I would think?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Welly Cobb on July 26, 2021, 18:15:43 pm
Bare in mind, wages were capped at £2.5 million in League One and £1.5 million League two for a while. While this wasn't applied retrospectively, and there were definitely big spenders and fallen giants well above this, I'd imagine the limit would be a target that a fair few clubs were under each year.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 26, 2021, 19:03:52 pm
It's impossible to break out the playing side without some huge assumptions. I just had a crack and didn't get anywhere close to sensible. Far more likely to see something accurate on articles like those posted by Melly above but even then you're not getting a complete picture.

As for the 287, I'm sure it's accurate. Would imagine the bulk of it is matchday staff working a very small number of hours - if they're agency I start to struggle with how it gets there.

The buckets I can think of are:

Playing staff
Coaching staff - first team, youth/academy, ladies, other (e.g. disability sides)
Support staff (e.g. kit man)
Medical staff
Recruitment team
Ground staff

Senior management (non-playing) - CEO, Secretary, Commercial Director etc.
Ticket Office
Club Shop
Media (Gareth W +)
Community
Chief Creative Accountant

Matchday catering
Stewards & security
Other matchday roles

I agree the employment numbers will be provable, right down to every tea boy and briefly employed Chinaman in the name of education. Don't we also employ online scouts or is that lads who represent us at online games in the name of NTFC?
It would be interesting to compare club turnover and numbers of employees against one of the top six premier sides. Economies of scale would no doubt kick in.
I'm struggling to get much beyond 150 though.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on July 26, 2021, 21:19:40 pm
Would be useful to know how many of the "employees" were full-time. Have been looking at a number of other clubs accounts, I highlighted last week Exeters who listed 214 staff, Colchester are 255, whereas MK Dons who submit full accounts only have 123 staff ( 1 director, 82 full time playing, training and management, and 41 admin and commercial) They do however have an additional 135 temporary matchday staff.
With the full time and temporary that still only comes to 257 though against our 287.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on July 26, 2021, 21:26:59 pm
No disrespect to anyone and I realise a few people have wasted a fair bit of time to come up with not a lot of anything very interesting, but this thread has degenerated into something thatís making me lose the will to live.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 26, 2021, 21:28:01 pm
I only listed out the various staff categories I could think of to show that if you put a bit of thought into most of these things (i.e. 287 is loads of staff, something must be off), they're really not that exciting. How wrong I was!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CobblerForever on July 26, 2021, 21:42:49 pm
I agree the employment numbers will be provable, right down to every tea boy and briefly employed Chinaman in the name of education. Don't we also employ online scouts or is that lads who represent us at online games in the name of NTFC?
It would be interesting to compare club turnover and numbers of employees against one of the top six premier sides. Economies of scale would no doubt kick in.
I'm struggling to get much beyond 150 though.

Arsenal as an example (per their financial statements to May 31st 2020;

Note 6. Employees 
The average monthly number of persons employed by the Group during the year was:
Playing staff 70
Training staff 77
Commercial and Administrative staff 432
Ground staff 124
Total = 703
In  addition,  the  Group  used  on  average  1,135  temporary  staff  each  month,  mainly  on  match  days.

Just Google Overpaid FC Financial Statements and you can go through the Premier League sides one by one


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 26, 2021, 22:06:01 pm
Spot on.

Are you serious? 😂😂

You got almost double my post count on here, and easily triple what Iíve got on this thread. Youíre our best customer 🤣🤣 87 posts on this thread alone



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 26, 2021, 23:27:35 pm
Are you serious? 😂😂

You got almost double my post count on here, and easily triple what Iíve got on this thread. Youíre our best customer 🤣🤣 87 posts on this thread alone


Are you seriously counting my posts in this thread. 🤪
Roll on the football.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 23:45:23 pm
No disrespect to anyone and I realise a few people have wasted a fair bit of time to come up with not a lot of anything very interesting, but this thread has degenerated into something thatís making me lose the will to live.
Always the way though Shoey. Everybody likes a subjective opinion, start trying to drill down and expose that opinion to a bit of data and people generally donít want to know. Too much effort, much easier to guess it all. I canít be ar5ed to read all the stuff myself.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 26, 2021, 23:46:51 pm
Are you seriously counting my posts in this thread. 🤪
Roll on the football.

I donít have to count anyoneís postsÖ I've got the admin section 😛😀



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on July 26, 2021, 23:54:16 pm
Bare in mind, wages were capped at £2.5 million in League One and £1.5 million League two for a while. While this wasn't applied retrospectively, and there were definitely big spenders and fallen giants well above this, I'd imagine the limit would be a target that a fair few clubs were under each year.
you would think no spectators would have wiped a fair chunk off that bill though?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on July 27, 2021, 11:06:38 am
For the attention of "Back of the Net"
Re the East Stand, NTFC said on 25th June 2021 "We are positive about the direction we are heading and felt confident enough that a few months ago we were able to commission these conceptual images to show both the council, supporters and stakeholders what we are trying to achieve with the East Stand". It is a know fact that the plans displayed at the Open Evening are over 5 years old, so isn't that statement a little misleading ?
No idea. Do we definitely "know" they are over 5 years old? That's a genuine question by the way, I haven't seen where that has been proven beyond the odd person saying they look the same as ones that other people saw years ago.

The drawings were first issued on 11th Feb 2016


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Clarity on July 27, 2021, 11:23:03 am
Are you serious? 😂😂

You got almost double my post count on here, and easily triple what Iíve got on this thread. Youíre our best customer 🤣🤣 87 posts on this thread alone


;D That is SO going to annoy a certain other customer


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 27, 2021, 12:14:07 pm
;D That is SO going to annoy a certain other customer

 ;D ;D It willÖ  We have to be fair though. Manwork has really up his game since he won the Trust boards brown noser of the year award. 😜😜


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 27, 2021, 12:29:09 pm
For the attention of "Back of the Net"
Re the East Stand, NTFC said on 25th June 2021 "We are positive about the direction we are heading and felt confident enough that a few months ago we were able to commission these conceptual images to show both the council, supporters and stakeholders what we are trying to achieve with the East Stand". It is a know fact that the plans displayed at the Open Evening are over 5 years old, so isn't that statement a little misleading ?
No idea. Do we definitely "know" they are over 5 years old? That's a genuine question by the way, I haven't seen where that has been proven beyond the odd person saying they look the same as ones that other people saw years ago.

The drawings were first issued on 11th Feb 2016

OK. So maybe they dusted off some old images, but again this is the same thing other people have mentioned where those criticising the club (or the Trust for that matter) just state something as fact without citing where it's come from and expect everyone else to just accept it as gospel. Do the images have date stamps on them? Do you have copies attached to an email from 11th Feb 2016? If so, are they identical or have they been tarted up a bit?

I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just looking for clarification. If the images are 100% identical to ones that were released over 5 years ago then yes, I'm more than happy to admit that it's a little misleading for KT to say they were commissioned a few months ago if they weren't.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on July 27, 2021, 13:43:15 pm
OK. So maybe they dusted off some old images, but again this is the same thing other people have mentioned where those criticising the club (or the Trust for that matter) just state something as fact without citing where it's come from and expect everyone else to just accept it as gospel. Do the images have date stamps on them? Do you have copies attached to an email from 11th Feb 2016? If so, are they identical or have they been tarted up a bit?

I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just looking for clarification. If the images are 100% identical to ones that were released over 5 years ago then yes, I'm more than happy to admit that it's a little misleading for KT to say they were commissioned a few months ago if they weren't.
I have copies which state "First Issued 11/02/2016". They are identical to the ones displayed by NTFC at the Open Evening  apart from the date has been removed on the Open Evening ones.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 27, 2021, 13:55:06 pm
I have copies which state "First Issued 11/02/2016". They are identical to the ones displayed by NTFC at the Open Evening  apart from the date has been removed on the Open Evening ones.

But as I said yesterday aren't you talking about two different things.  You, I believe, are talking about the plans.  Whereas it was said the Conceptual Images are new.  The conceptual images are the 3 photographic style images they presented.  If you are saying these are 5 years old then you have a point.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on July 27, 2021, 14:03:14 pm
But as I said yesterday aren't you talking about two different things.  You, I believe, are talking about the plans.  Whereas it was said the Conceptual Images are new.  The conceptual images are the 3 photographic style images they presented.  If you are saying these are 5 years old then you have a point.
The 30 second CGI was new, the plans are old. So OK, I'll admit that there is progress on the East Stand, we have a 30 second CGI commissioned.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 27, 2021, 14:05:44 pm
OK. So maybe they dusted off some old images, but again this is the same thing other people have mentioned where those criticising the club (or the Trust for that matter) just state something as fact without citing where it's come from and expect everyone else to just accept it as gospel. Do the images have date stamps on them? Do you have copies attached to an email from 11th Feb 2016? If so, are they identical or have they been tarted up a bit?

I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just looking for clarification. If the images are 100% identical to ones that were released over 5 years ago then yes, I'm more than happy to admit that it's a little misleading
for KT to say they were commissioned a few months ago if they weren't.
Itís a outrageous lie.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on July 27, 2021, 14:09:12 pm
just more smoke and mirrors from Mr Thomas and treating fans with........


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 27, 2021, 14:12:55 pm
just more smoke and mirrors from Mr Thomas and treating fans with........
Heís done it since his first toe curling PowerPoint presentation on his favourite subject the East Stand.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 27, 2021, 14:20:35 pm
The 30 second CGI was new, the plans are old. So OK, I'll admit that there is progress on the East Stand, we have a 30 second CGI commissioned.
Or you could look at it that the conceptual plans are now firmed up which is why they are happy to produce the CGI images for fans. Which is something he has repeated for a long time that they wouldnt share images in case things changed.
I dont agree with it, I think fans should have been shown them 5 years ago and then they could have presented any changes needed now.
But just another way of looking at the same coin


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Battery Man on July 27, 2021, 14:33:24 pm
Random & Manny we get it you don't trust him or believe anything he says. It doesn't alter the fact that he is the Chairman and they are the owners we have. It doesn't matter whether anyone trusts him or not at the end of the day we as fans need to work with him and the board to ensure we still have a club at the end of this. Like we have said many times if there is legitimate proof of wrong doing then get it to the proper authorities if not then the Trust has to come up with a way of working with him for the best outcome for the club. Yes there is nothing to stop him getting the deal he wants with the council and walking away leaving us to financially implode but unless fans and the Trust work closely with him then we won't be prepared when and if it does happen. If the Trust feels it cannot work with the board then we need another fans group that can, I am sure you are right like Cardoza they are here for the land deal, so what, we are all here for the Club which means we need to work with the board as closely as possible to get the best outcome for NTFC. If the trust and the fans work with them and get close they at least stand more chance of getting a better outcome for the Club.

We get that he isn't in it for his love of the Cobblers, but there is more chance of him walking away with a profit and us walking away with a club if some sort of agreement between KT and The Trust can be reached, remember the saying keep your friends close but your enemiies closer!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 27, 2021, 14:55:14 pm


The 30 second CGI was new, the plans are old. So OK, I'll admit that there is progress on the East Stand, we have a 30 second CGI commissioned.

Well, hang on, you were complaining that the club was passing off 5 year old stuff as new, but it was the plans that were 5 years old and the CGI images were in fact new, which is the only thing the club claimed to be new, right?

From your own post:

Quote
NTFC said on 25th June 2021 "We are positive about the direction we are heading and felt confident enough that a few months ago we were able to commission these conceptual images to show both the council, supporters and stakeholders what we are trying to achieve with the East Stand"

I'll grant you, banging out some new CGI images isn't great progress in 5 years, but that's not what you were saying. Personally, I don't care if the plans are 5 years old or 10 years old, if they are still functional then why would you commission new ones? It would be an utter waste of money.

You were implying the club were being disingenuous when they weren't, which I'm really not comfortable with.

If instead you'd said "KT presented 5 year old plans and just tarted them up with a few new flashy images. That's pretty poor progress in 5 years, isn't it?" then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you!




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 27, 2021, 15:09:58 pm
You were implying the club were being disingenuous when they weren't, which I'm really not comfortable with.

If instead you'd said "KT presented 5 year old plans and just tarted them up with a few new flashy images. That's pretty poor progress in 5 years, isn't it?" then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you!

This sums up the last few pages for me.

In recent weeks, some posters have progressed from 'KT is doing a crap job' to 'KT is outright lying' and similar (sometimes more serious) suggestions & allegations. When it comes to the latter, you have to be ready to stand behind what you're saying. If you can't, your credibility is undermined. It doesn't mean you're wrong, it just makes it far more difficult for you to bring people on board.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 27, 2021, 15:15:57 pm
This sums up the last few pages for me.

In recent weeks, some posters have progressed from 'KT is doing a crap job' to 'KT is outright lying' and similar (sometimes more serious) suggestions & allegations. When it comes to the latter, you have to be ready to stand behind what you're saying. If you can't, your credibility is undermined. It doesn't mean you're wrong, it just makes it far more difficult for you to bring people on board.

Precisely!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 27, 2021, 15:48:57 pm

Well, hang on, you were complaining that the club was passing off 5 year old stuff as new, but it was the plans that were 5 years old and the CGI images were in fact new, which is the only thing the club claimed to be new, right?

From your own post:

I'll grant you, banging out some new CGI images isn't great progress in 5 years, but that's not what you were saying. Personally, I don't care if the plans are 5 years old or 10 years old, if they are still functional then why would you commission new ones? It would be an utter waste of money.

You were implying the club were being disingenuous when they weren't, which I'm really not comfortable with.

If instead you'd said "KT presented 5 year old plans and just tarted them up with a few new flashy images. That's pretty poor progress in 5 years, isn't it?" then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you!



I agree with everything you say BOTN, but I would add that the claim did not come from the Trust, and it's their statement that this thread is about.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on July 27, 2021, 16:04:22 pm
I agree with everything you say BOTN, but I would add that the claim did not come from the Trust, and it's their statement that this thread is about.

Agreed and understood.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 27, 2021, 16:06:14 pm
Have any of you thought where the information has come from?
And why the proof isnít yet available to the public.
FFS donít look for a job in the secret service.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 27, 2021, 16:14:05 pm
Have any of you thought where the information has come from?
And why the proof isnít yet available to the public.
FFS donít look for a job in the secret service.
What information, specifically?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on July 27, 2021, 16:14:25 pm
Have any of you thought where the information has come from?
And why the proof isnít yet available to the public.
FFS donít look for a job in the secret service.
I'm going to go with....
because there isn't any evidence of wrong doing, just a way the Trust arent happy with, so they dropped just enough information and in a way to try and create anger in the supporter base after their underhanded attempt to get a scoop in the red tops didnt work.

There you go, thats my opinion laid out in full


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 27, 2021, 16:17:28 pm
Have any of you thought where the information has come from?
And why the proof isnít yet available to the public.
FFS donít look for a job in the secret service.

If you're suggesting what I think you are, I really can't see why anyone would be comfortable posting the substance but not the material itself and/or proof that it exists.

With respect Manny, we've been here before with you implying there's something very exciting that the rest of us don't know about. It wasn't very exciting in the end. Don't look for a job as a shepherd.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 27, 2021, 16:26:45 pm
Have any of you thought where the information has come from?
And why the proof isnít yet available to the public.
FFS donít look for a job in the secret service.
Have any of you thought where the information has come from?
And why the proof isnít yet available to the public.
FFS donít look for a job in the secret service.
Does it come from a disgruntled club employee who is looking for another job (or club) but hasn't found one yet?
Does it come, unofficially, from the constabulary?
Both?
Nether?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on July 27, 2021, 16:42:19 pm
I can't be the only one who has totally lost track on what is actually being alluded to by some. If it is that KT is a businessman first and not a born and bred Cobblers fan he is probably guilty as charged. Other than that we desperately need the footie to start and hope we hit the ground running!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on July 27, 2021, 16:59:17 pm
Does it come from a disgruntled club employee who is looking for another job (or club) but hasn't found one yet?
Does it come, unofficially, from the constabulary?
Both?
Nether?


Is it ....

https://youtu.be/-n91lSO0wJQ


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: MCHammer on July 27, 2021, 16:59:40 pm
Does it come from a disgruntled club employee who is looking for another job (or club) but hasn't found one yet?
Does it come, unofficially, from the constabulary?
Both?
Nether?

Why don't you ask the Supporters Trust?  That's what he told me to do yesterday.  Maybe other people should as well.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on July 27, 2021, 17:03:17 pm

Well, hang on, you were complaining that the club was passing off 5 year old stuff as new, but it was the plans that were 5 years old and the CGI images were in fact new, which is the only thing the club claimed to be new, right?

From your own post:
I'll grant you, banging out some new CGI images isn't great progress in 5 years, but that's not what you were saying. Personally, I don't care if the plans are 5 years old or 10 years old, if they are still functional then why would you commission new ones? It would be an utter waste of money.
You were implying the club were being disingenuous when they weren't, which I'm really not comfortable with.
If instead you'd said "KT presented 5 year old plans and just tarted them up with a few new flashy images. That's pretty poor progress in 5 years, isn't it?" then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you!
Please see what I said in the original post
"Question 3, Re the East Stand, NTFC said on 25th June 2021 "We are positive about the direction we are heading and felt confident enough that a few months ago we were able to commission these conceptual images to show both the council, supporters and stakeholders what we are trying to achieve with the East Stand". It is a know fact that the plans displayed at the Open Evening are over 5 years old, so isn't that statement a little misleading ?"
Which is exactly what you have said in your last paragraph !


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 27, 2021, 17:09:27 pm
What information, specifically?

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 27, 2021, 17:15:43 pm
Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.
Are you still calling people twŗt when you have a little paddy?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 27, 2021, 17:17:48 pm
Is it ....

https://youtu.be/-n91lSO0wJQ
I fŻkin love HKF.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 27, 2021, 17:22:42 pm
If you're suggesting what I think you are, I really can't see why anyone would be comfortable posting the substance but not the material itself and/or proof that it exists.

With respect Manny, we've been here before with you implying there's something very exciting that the rest of us don't know about. It wasn't very exciting in the end. Don't look for a job as a shepherd.
Sorry I didnít meet your expectations, Shepard isnít really a career Iíve wished for TBH.
Iíd love to share but no one would ever tell me anything ever again and Iíd drop some people in a lot of trouble.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on July 27, 2021, 17:25:07 pm
When I set this account up I was wearing a Hong Kong Phooey tshirt with Zen Master written on it so it was chosen as username!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 27, 2021, 17:26:59 pm
When I set this account up I was wearing a Hong Kong Phooey tshirt with Zen Master written on it so it was chosen as username!
Love it. You should wear it to a Cobbs game.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: claretparrot on July 27, 2021, 17:27:41 pm
Iíd love to share but no one would ever tell me anything ever again and Iíd drop some people in a lot of trouble.

I call bullsh*t. You can rely on an apology from me if and when I'm proven wrong.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on July 27, 2021, 17:31:50 pm
I call bullsh*t. You can rely on an apology from me if and when I'm proven wrong.
And thatís your personal prerogative, it really doesnít matter because the wheels are in motion as they say.
Watch this space and all that.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: singcobb on July 27, 2021, 17:45:43 pm
Are you still calling people twàt when you have a little paddy?

And you still don't answer questions, proving my point.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Coolcat on July 27, 2021, 17:50:58 pm
And thatís your personal prerogative, it really doesnít matter because the wheels are in motion as they say.
Watch this space and all that.
Oh no, sorry, sorry, sorry!  ;D

https://youtu.be/Re4aDJL3heA


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on July 27, 2021, 18:46:05 pm
Sorry I didnít meet your expectations, Shepard isnít really a career Iíve wished for TBH.
Iíd love to share but no one would ever tell me anything ever again and Iíd drop some people in a lot of trouble.
https://youtu.be/TiXINuf5nbI


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on July 27, 2021, 19:09:22 pm
And thatís your personal prerogative, it really doesnít matter because the wheels are in motion as they say.
Watch this space and all that.

I have for a few years now. I just don't do it with the same amount on glee as some.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Keith on July 31, 2021, 23:46:42 pm
i  see dead people in charge over te rainbow


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Travelaway on August 30, 2021, 17:48:12 pm
Hearts owner gives shares to Hearts foundation.
Today, Heart of Midlothian officially becomes the biggest fan-owned club in British football

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58385733

Around 8,000 supporters make monthly pledges to the group with them officially taking ownership on Monday.

Do we have 8K willing to match the level of the £10 Million they put into the club and ground.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on August 30, 2021, 19:03:08 pm
Hearts owner gives shares to Hearts foundation.
Today, Heart of Midlothian officially becomes the biggest fan-owned club in British football

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58385733

Around 8,000 supporters make monthly pledges to the group with them officially taking ownership on Monday.

Do we have 8K willing to match the level of the £10 Million they put into the club and ground.

Probably not, but as I said ages ago, Iím willing to pledge £1,000 and I think about 5 or 6 others said they would too. With around 3000 season ticket holders, all of whom are obviously massive fans with the best interest of the club at heart, surely we could raise £3,000,000 easily and some could easily afford a lot more. With the right organisation and motivation we could do a Hearts. Where thereís a will etc etc. Cue the knockers/mediocrity brigade. Letís just leave things as they are and see what happens. ::)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on August 31, 2021, 03:18:06 am
Why are you ridiculing people who my not think the same as you Shoemender ? I'm a season ticket holder and I wouldn't give a penny to a fan owned Club, my choice.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on August 31, 2021, 06:31:55 am
Why are you ridiculing people who my not think the same as you Shoemender ? I'm a season ticket holder and I wouldn't give a penny to a fan owned Club, my choice.

Ditto.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on August 31, 2021, 08:51:18 am
I would but it would be as a last resort, it would be a disaster at the moment, we need investment from a chairman who is interested in the club.
A better idea would be to invest in the ground infrastructure, fund the top tier for the north and south.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on August 31, 2021, 09:39:20 am
Why are you ridiculing people who my not think the same as you Shoemender ? I'm a season ticket holder and I wouldn't give a penny to a fan owned Club, my choice.

Sorry if it sounded like that. I'm not ridiculing anyone, merely suggesting that we have some fans that are happy to accept mediocrity. It's obvious something needs to change and a fan owned club certainly divides opinion. What about Mannys idea about the ground, would people be prepared to pledge money towards that?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: west stand oap on August 31, 2021, 09:49:27 am
At the moment a top tier for the north and south would remain empty as we only get crowds of about 5000. The question is do you expand now or when you have a successful team that needs the extra capacity?. We rarely had sell out crowds in division 1 but their was a handful of clubs that would have brought bigger away followings if they were allocated more tickets.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on August 31, 2021, 10:17:46 am
Sorry if it sounded like that. I'm not ridiculing anyone, merely suggesting that we have some fans that are happy to accept mediocrity. It's obvious something needs to change and a fan owned club certainly divides opinion. What about Mannys idea about the ground, would people be prepared to pledge money towards that?
Not wanting to jeopardies the club (in my opinion) through fan ownership isnt accepting mediocrity.
Funding a stand, or safe standing no. I am interesting the fan village concept and would help fund that to attract more people to the stadium


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on August 31, 2021, 10:24:59 am
At the moment a top tier for the north and south would remain empty as we only get crowds of about 5000. The question is do you expand now or when you have a successful team that needs the extra capacity?. We rarely had sell out crowds in division 1 but their was a handful of clubs that would have brought bigger away followings if they were allocated more tickets.
Build it and they will comeÖÖ.. now who said that?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: JollyCobbler on August 31, 2021, 10:43:37 am
Why are you ridiculing people who my not think the same as you Shoemender ? I'm a season ticket holder and I wouldn't give a penny to a fan owned Club, my choice.

Whilst I don't believe fan ownership to be the best viable option for ourselves, it can work. Although I'm not sure that Hearts 'fan ownership, but not fan management, will thus become a reality' model is the way to go. I may be reading things wrong, but it looks as though a small group of people will look to retain control at Hearts.

If the scheme ever was implemented at NTFC, then I'd prefer a 'one, fan, one share, one vote' model. Let's say that you had the option of investing £60 pounds a year (as a minimum) into being an 'owner' of NTFC. People could invest £60 or £600 or £6000, it wouldn't matter, because only £1 of any one payment would go towards purchasing a share in NTFC - the rest of the money would go towards the club's running costs.

Fans that choose to invest more could do so, but they wouldn't have anymore claim to owning the club than someone who only invested the minimum pledge. Each fan registered as an owner would have/receive exactly the same benefits as the person next to them; ie, one fan, one vote when it comes to electing board members etc during a (let's say) bi-yearly election. There could be other benefits, such as discount cards etc, but still equally applicable to all who have bought into the 'shared ownership' model.

Don't get me wrong, no fan ownership scheme is completely ideal, and in certain instances a club will always need some financial big hitters - take this last eighteen months as an example of how things can suddenly turn pear shaped. But, given the implementation of any new ownership model, I believe something like this would be the best option for bringing Northamptonians on board.
There are a lot of people who would be willing to invest on a yearly basis if they could genuinily claim to be a 'joint owner' of NTFC. Would you ever consider investing in something like this, tcobb?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on August 31, 2021, 11:46:21 am
Build it and they will comeÖÖ.. now who said that?
No one  ;)
Its one of the most common examples of the Mandela effect


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on August 31, 2021, 12:18:47 pm
Build it and they will comeÖÖ.. now who said that?

Isn't it a misquote from Field of Dreams? I'd rather be watching baseball a lot of the time.  :P


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on August 31, 2021, 12:27:09 pm
Whilst I don't believe fan ownership to be the best viable option for ourselves, it can work. Although I'm not sure that Hearts 'fan ownership, but not fan management, will thus become a reality' model is the way to go. I may be reading things wrong, but it looks as though a small group of people will look to retain control at Hearts.

If the scheme ever was implemented at NTFC, then I'd prefer a 'one, fan, one share, one vote' model. Let's say that you had the option of investing £60 pounds a year (as a minimum) into being an 'owner' of NTFC. People could invest £60 or £600 or £6000, it wouldn't matter, because only £1 of any one payment would go towards purchasing a share in NTFC - the rest of the money would go towards the club's running costs.

Fans that choose to invest more could do so, but they wouldn't have anymore claim to owning the club than someone who only invested the minimum pledge. Each fan registered as an owner would have/receive exactly the same benefits as the person next to them; ie, one fan, one vote when it comes to electing board members etc during a (let's say) bi-yearly election. There could be other benefits, such as discount cards etc, but still equally applicable to all who have bought into the 'shared ownership' model.

Don't get me wrong, no fan ownership scheme is completely ideal, and in certain instances a club will always need some financial big hitters - take this last eighteen months as an example of how things can suddenly turn pear shaped. But, given the implementation of any new ownership model, I believe something like this would be the best option for bringing Northamptonians on board.
There are a lot of people who would be willing to invest on a yearly basis if they could genuinily claim to be a 'joint owner' of NTFC. Would you ever consider investing in something like this, tcobb?


Good post Jolly. this is much more along the lines of what I would like to see, only a lot better put. With the correct management and implementation it could be a way forward, just not sure we'd get enough people on board unfortunately, but we'll never know unless we try.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Wanderingteyn on August 31, 2021, 12:32:29 pm
You're off your heads if you think we could raise millions as fans.

When the club was going out of business we barely raised anything as fans.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on August 31, 2021, 12:44:55 pm
You're off your heads if you think we could raise millions as fans.

When the club was going out of business we barely raised anything as fans.

And that is why, without a rich benefactor, we'll always be where we've been for over 50 years or worse.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on August 31, 2021, 13:46:50 pm
Hearts owner gives shares to Hearts foundation.
Today, Heart of Midlothian officially becomes the biggest fan-owned club in British football

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58385733

Around 8,000 supporters make monthly pledges to the group with them officially taking ownership on Monday.

Do we have 8K willing to match the level of the £10 Million they put into the club and ground.

Impossible to tell what we could raise but hats off to Hearts, they clearly have developed some great momentum.
Simple maths suggests we would struggle to raise anywhere near that level of funding:

- They have given £10m over 7 years. That would be 5,000 people giving £285 each per year.
- 5,000 giving £10 a month would represent just under £1m a year

Their 8,000 giving an average of £20 a month would generate £2m a year.

We'd be better off attracting a consortium of local businesses that could put in regular amounts.

Whatever the ultimate outcome at Hearts it must drive far greater fan engagement and passion for their club.
I personally just don't think we have that in our support in enough numbers, although I'm sure we have plenty of followers with a few quid.
We'll see if we ever get the over priced exec boxes.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on August 31, 2021, 14:01:08 pm
Impossible to tell what we could raise but hats off to Hearts, they clearly have developed some great momentum.
Simple maths suggests we would struggle to raise anywhere near that level of funding:

- They have given £10m over 7 years. That would be 5,000 people giving £285 each per year.
- 5,000 giving £10 a month would represent just under £1m a year

Their 8,000 giving an average of £20 a month would generate £2m a year.

We'd be better off attracting a consortium of local businesses that could put in regular amounts.

Whatever the ultimate outcome at Hearts it must drive far greater fan engagement and passion for their club.
I personally just don't think we have that in our support in enough numbers, although I'm sure we have plenty of followers with a few quid.
We'll see if we ever get the over priced exec boxes.

Another thing with Hearts is that all their fans support Hearts and only Hearts, I'd be very surprised if any support Celtic/Rangers.
Probably half ours have prem teams so Hearts fans hearts, excuse the pun, are a lot more in it than than a lot of our fans. That's the sad reality and why it's unlikely to happen.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: JollyCobbler on August 31, 2021, 14:44:32 pm
You're off your heads if you think we could raise millions as fans.

When the club was going out of business we barely raised anything as fans.

Who mentioned millions? ...other than you?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Wanderingteyn on August 31, 2021, 14:49:33 pm
Who mentioned millions? ...other than you?

I mean, Shoemender did literally a few posts back. It's okay though, I know it can be difficult to read.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on August 31, 2021, 16:28:30 pm
Impossible to tell what we could raise but hats off to Hearts, they clearly have developed some great momentum.
Whatever the ultimate outcome at Hearts it must drive far greater fan engagement and passion for their club.
I personally just don't think we have that in our support in enough numbers, although I'm sure we have plenty of followers with a few quid.
We'll see if we ever get the over priced exec boxes.
I think we should look a little closer to home for a bit of inspiration, lets have a look what Lincoln did to go from 2,000 in the National League to 9000 in League One. I know a successful team is a BIG help but the last few times we've been to Lincoln you couldn't help but notice how much the fans have "Bought into" whatever Lincoln were doing, everyone was so enthusiastic about their club and it seemed a two way thing with the club moving forward.
So why don't NTFC get someone to have a look back at what Lincoln have done and see if we could apply any of it to NTFC. I'm sure they could afford to look, after all the paid someone to go through all the personal tweets and face book posting of people "associated" with the Trust, digging for dirt didn't they ?
       Unfortunately at NTFC, at the moment, there doesn't seem to be much "Pride" in the club, as people have been stating for a while, the ground is looking a bit rundown and we have had no TV's working in Carr's Bar all season, I don't know if they are working on the concourse, but surely it's not too difficult to get that sorted in 2 weeks ? The beer is well over a £1 a pint dearer than the Tavern and with no football on the TV's they will lose custom, but the impression I get is that they are not too worried.
       Also, looking from the outside, it seems the Commercial Department do OK with corporate business's but no one is looking at the average fan. For a start £24 is a ridicules price for League 2 football, we are NOT going to sell out any games unless we are in the battle at the top at the end of the season, so why not sell a "5 game package" for say £90, must be used by Christmas or something similar.
        Let's see a bit of "creative marketing" to try and get the people of the town behind us, mend the broken TV's and windows, any new or returning  fans will want to see a bit of pride and positivity around the club, but at the moment, I don't see too much of it.
         


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: cobblertone on August 31, 2021, 17:42:12 pm
I think we should look a little closer to home for a bit of inspiration, lets have a look what Lincoln did to go from 2,000 in the National League to 9000 in League One. I know a successful team is a BIG help but the last few times we've been to Lincoln you couldn't help but notice how much the fans have "Bought into" whatever Lincoln were doing, everyone was so enthusiastic about their club and it seemed a two way thing with the club moving forward.
So why don't NTFC get someone to have a look back at what Lincoln have done and see if we could apply any of it to NTFC. I'm sure they could afford to look, after all the paid someone to go through all the personal tweets and face book posting of people "associated" with the Trust, digging for dirt didn't they ?
       Unfortunately at NTFC, at the moment, there doesn't seem to be much "Pride" in the club, as people have been stating for a while, the ground is looking a bit rundown and we have had no TV's working in Carr's Bar all season, I don't know if they are working on the concourse, but surely it's not too difficult to get that sorted in 2 weeks ? The beer is well over a £1 a pint dearer than the Tavern and with no football on the TV's they will lose custom, but the impression I get is that they are not too worried.
       Also, looking from the outside, it seems the Commercial Department do OK with corporate business's but no one is looking at the average fan. For a start £24 is a ridicules price for League 2 football, we are NOT going to sell out any games unless we are in the battle at the top at the end of the season, so why not sell a "5 game package" for say £90, must be used by Christmas or something similar.
        Let's see a bit of "creative marketing" to try and get the people of the town behind us, mend the broken TV's and windows, any new or returning  fans will want to see a bit of pride and positivity around the club, but at the moment, I don't see too much of it.
         

It is really difficult and so much working against football clubs these days. I'd say the football on the pitch (to sustain crowds) is as important as anything. There are only so many times someone will part with money to watch dross. How many people don't go for a few seasons and then return to 'feel the magic' only to leave early in some drab encounter, vowing not to return?
Price is definitely another big factor but difficult to find that optimum cost. I'd imagine £24 puts a few off, although I'm sure they've done their sums and not enough to justify say £20.
I've always thought that football has outpriced family spectators, well those with older kids. I could afford it but just couldn't justify paying £64 to attend a game at Sixfields, which is tickets only. Then there is the age old problem of getting 'decent' seats.

They could certainly do with investing some money to 'tart up' the place and the outsourced catering isn't the best. Whilst appreciating that it is difficult to run something once or twice a fortnight there could be earning potential here to do something far better for the punters. Investment in the overall match day experience would definitely help.

Packages are a good idea but practically it still needs someone to commit to multiple games for a decent outlay.

Maybe it's just different times to the 30-40k at Wembley but apathy seems to reign. Maybe it's just cyclical and we are having our late 70's/early 80's moment again?! Not forgetting the other 'big C' that will still be having some impact with people's movements, especially on our demographic!


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: JollyCobbler on September 01, 2021, 13:45:24 pm
I mean, Shoemender did literally a few posts back. It's okay though, I know it can be difficult to read.

I thought you were replying to my post. But it's okay, carry on wandering... ::)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Wanderingteyn on September 01, 2021, 21:35:21 pm
I thought you were replying to my post. But it's okay, carry on wandering... ::)

Apologies. Please go back to being Jolly.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on September 02, 2021, 19:07:02 pm
Why are you ridiculing people who my not think the same as you Shoemender ? I'm a season ticket holder and I wouldn't give a penny to a fan owned Club, my choice.

So I assume that you never put any money in to the collection buckets last time?

You really think that KT does a better job than you would if it was your club BOTN?

You seem either happy with our owners, just wondered why you think that. Can you please give me 3 examples where KT/DB exceed your expectations of an owner. Thanks


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: BackOfTheNet on September 02, 2021, 21:46:40 pm
So I assume that you never put any money in to the collection buckets last time?

You really think that KT does a better job than you would if it was your club BOTN?

You seem either happy with our owners, just wondered why you think that. Can you please give me 3 examples where KT/DB exceed your expectations of an owner. Thanks


I don't know what you're dragging me into this for, my sole recent contribution to this debate has been the word "ditto". However, you have asked me the same thing before so here's my response from last time:

Well let's see....

What has KT/DB done that's been good?

  • Paid the inland revenue bill
  • Established the education programme
  • Made the club run in a much more professional manner
  • Stuck some seats in the East Stand so at least we are making some money from it in the interim
  • Been happy to engage with fans when approached directly (apparently, never bothered trying it myself beyond a cordial "hello" when passing him on the concourse.)
  • Overseen a big increase in the community work done
  • Subsidised the club with director loans to keep us going
  • Continued to slog through the red tape with the council for the redevelopment work


I know you disagree with most of that because you did last time. Probably best just to read back through the last time we had this discussion rather than have it all over again though.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on September 02, 2021, 23:16:07 pm
Random   yes I did put money in the buckets last time, as the call was going out to raise money to give to the unpaid staff. Wish I hadn't, look at the way that money is now0 being used as a weapon against the Club. Never again will I donate money to anything fan led.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 02, 2021, 23:48:46 pm
Random   yes I did put money in the buckets last time, as the call was going out to raise money to give to the unpaid staff. Wish I hadn't, look at the way that money is now0 being used as a weapon against the Club. Never again will I donate money to anything fan led.
Could you please explain how "That money is now being used as a weapon against the club"  ?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on September 03, 2021, 00:14:00 am
Carton you know exactly what I'm saying ,how many times have certain people referred to the money given to the Club as being a loan? That money was given by fans for the benefit of the staff, not too be used as a loan.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on September 03, 2021, 08:09:53 am
Random   yes I did put money in the buckets last time, as the call was going out to raise money to give to the unpaid staff. Wish I hadn't, look at the way that money is now0 being used as a weapon against the Club. Never again will I donate money to anything fan led.

Just playing devils advocate. The buckets were out to raise money to save the club. There was also an online fund raising page set up as well. It was only after KT came in and "saved" us that it was decided to give/loan some of the money to the club to pay staff, as I remember.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on September 03, 2021, 08:20:41 am
There was absolutely no mention of paying staff wages when we were shaking buckets, so please try again.

I (and not the Trust) post that the TRust "loaned" and were expecting it back (mainly i think because the Trust was not there to pay staff wages, especially when an owner comes in saying they have £4m to spend)
Its hardly a weapon and its against KT ethics not the club.

the staff payment was agreed by the board and was made a few days before KT took over.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on September 03, 2021, 08:47:17 am
Just playing devils advocate. The buckets were out to raise money to save the club. There was also an online fund raising page set up as well. It was only after KT came in and "saved" us that it was decided to give/loan some of the money to the club to pay staff, as I remember.
Just playing devils advocate, the Trust decided to Loan the money to the club, but didn't get the details of the loan, including repayment formally agreed / in writing. They now want the wider fan base to support them in running the club and handling all sorts of financial, contractual and commercial arrangements


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 03, 2021, 10:44:35 am
Carton you know exactly what I'm saying ,how many times have certain people referred to the money given to the Club as being a loan? That money was given by fans for the benefit of the staff, not too be used as a loan.
The club, James Whiting the CEO, asked the Trust for a loan, the agreement was that it would be paid back after the takeover was completed. KT. when he came in, declined to do that, stating it was DC debt. It was pointed out to him that he would have took over a club with no admin staff if the loan hadn't been taken out.
       You stated in your original post that you gave money because the Trust put "a call out to raise money for the unpaid staff" again this is untrue, things were happening so quickly then, that the Trust collected donations and used them as was appropriate, like paying for the team coach so NTFC could for fill a fixture.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 03, 2021, 10:52:37 am
Just playing devils advocate. The buckets were out to raise money to save the club. There was also an online fund raising page set up as well. It was only after KT came in and "saved" us that it was decided to give/loan some of the money to the club to pay staff, as I remember.
100% not true. Think about it, when KT took over NTFC and it's staff became his responsibility, so why would the Trust pay the staff ?  As stated lots of times NTFC asked the Trust for a loan towards the end of DC's time, which had to be in cash, because the bank accounts had been frozen, to pay the staff, some of whom were going to walk out because they hadn't been paid.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on September 03, 2021, 10:59:29 am
Wasn't the loan repayment deferred by The Trust in order to assist/fund something for the benefit of the supporters? I'm not saying it was for it, but wasn't the fans 'village' mentioned?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on September 03, 2021, 11:02:35 am
How was it recorded in the Trusts meeting minutes and accounts for that year?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 03, 2021, 11:15:52 am
Just playing devils advocate, the Trust decided to Loan the money to the club, but didn't get the details of the loan, including repayment formally agreed / in writing. They now want the wider fan base to support them in running the club and handling all sorts of financial, contractual and commercial arrangements
Time to cut the Trust a bit of slack here. The request for the loan was made literally a couple of days before they wanted it and it had to be cash, now you might know that it's not easy to get your hands on £10K in cash at very short notice. Some Trust board members even offered to get cash out of their own accounts to make up the £10K and be repaid later. I know how much hard work went into getting that all done by people who also had full time jobs to hold down, so, playing the devils advocate, maybe an apology is in order ?
    Second part of your post is also inaccurate where you say "they now want the wider fan base to support them in running the club". The Trust have consistently stated the they would only be interested in running the club if the same situation arises again.
     By the way, you do know that all the Trust owned clubs employ qualified people to do the jobs involved in running a football club, the guy who takes the cash on the away coaches won't be the company accountant. KT is in Florida 90% of his time, that's why NTFC employ James Whiting, and al the Trust owned clubs are no different so what makes you think NTFC would be different ?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on September 03, 2021, 11:20:28 am
My apologies if I'm incorrect. Just so i have peace of mind can somebody confirm no monies were collected after the Club asked for help paying the staff


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: guest3359 on September 03, 2021, 11:29:35 am
Time to cut the Trust a bit of slack here. The request for the loan was made literally a couple of days before they wanted it and it had to be cash, now you might know that it's not easy to get your hands on £10K in cash at very short notice. Some Trust board members even offered to get cash out of their own accounts to make up the £10K and be repaid later. I know how much hard work went into getting that all done by people who also had full time jobs to hold down, so, playing the devils advocate, maybe an apology is in order ?
    Second part of your post is also inaccurate where you say "they now want the wider fan base to support them in running the club". The Trust have consistently stated the they would only be interested in running the club if the same situation arises again.
     By the way, you do know that all the Trust owned clubs employ qualified people to do the jobs involved in running a football club, the guy who takes the cash on the away coaches won't be the company accountant. KT is in Florida 90% of his time, that's why NTFC employ James Whiting, and al the Trust owned clubs are no different so what makes you think NTFC would be different ?
How long does it take to get something in writing? The Trust had a difficult decision to make, they decided to give the money to the club which was the right thing to do. If they didn't get anything in writing then it wasn't a loan and I agree it is used as a 'weapon' or at least as a way of painting the owners of the club in a bad way when there was failings on both sides. The Trust used the money donated by fans for a great cause. That should be celebrated and not politicised.

I've never (intentionally) questioned the intent, passion, and dedication the Trust board have to the club, and apologies if that has come across. However my position on Trust / Fan ownership is unchanged.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on September 03, 2021, 12:28:10 pm
Just playing devils advocate. The buckets were out to raise money to save the club. There was also an online fund raising page set up as well. It was only after KT came in and "saved" us that it was decided to give/loan some of the money to the club to pay staff, as I remember.

100% not true. Think about it, when KT took over NTFC and it's staff became his responsibility, so why would the Trust pay the staff ?  As stated lots of times NTFC asked the Trust for a loan towards the end of DC's time, which had to be in cash, because the bank accounts had been frozen, to pay the staff, some of whom were going to walk out because they hadn't been paid.

Hold on a minute. Which bit is 100% not true? As I said, I was just playing devils advocate, not taking sides or having a go at the trust.
The buckets were out to raise money to save the club......TRUE
There was also an online fund raising page set up as well.....TRUE
It was only after KT came in and "saved" us that it was decided to give/loan some of the money to the club to pay staff, as I remember.......AS I REMEMBER. It was certainly something like that.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 03, 2021, 14:08:12 pm
Just playing devils advocate. The buckets were out to raise money to save the club. There was also an online fund raising page set up as well. It was only after KT came in and "saved" us that it was decided to give/loan some of the money to the club to pay staff, as I remember.

Hold on a minute. Which bit is 100% not true? As I said, I was just playing devils advocate, not taking sides or having a go at the trust.
The buckets were out to raise money to save the club......TRUE   True
There was also an online fund raising page set up as well.....TRUE True
It was only after KT came in and "saved" us that it was decided to give/loan some of the money to the club to pay staff, as I remember.......AS I REMEMBER. It was certainly something like that.  NOT True , as I stated the loan was asked for towards the end of DC's time because the staff hadn't been paid and were going to walk out. The Trust were told the the club wouldn't be able to function properly without these staff members. The loan was made before KT "saved" us otherwise their would have been only half a club to save. Nothing like you remember


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on September 03, 2021, 14:50:14 pm
Just playing devils advocate, the Trust decided to Loan the money to the club, but didn't get the details of the loan, including repayment formally agreed / in writing. They now want the wider fan base to support them in running the club and handling all sorts of financial, contractual and commercial arrangements

You have no idea. Are you a child, just out of interest, as I should like to throw you some slack?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on September 03, 2021, 14:53:54 pm
You have no idea. Are you a child, just out of interest, as I should like to throw you some slack?
I'd be inclined to let him drown.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 03, 2021, 15:25:35 pm
My apologies if I'm incorrect. Just so i have peace of mind can somebody confirm no monies were collected after the Club asked for help paying the staff
As far as I'm aware the loan was not made public until after KT had taken over


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on September 03, 2021, 17:00:50 pm
It was only after KT came in and "saved" us that it was decided to give/loan some of the money to the club to pay staff, as I remember.......AS I REMEMBER. It was certainly something like that.  NOT True , as I stated the loan was asked for towards the end of DC's time because the staff hadn't been paid and were going to walk out. The Trust were told the the club wouldn't be able to function properly without these staff members. The loan was made before KT "saved" us otherwise their would have been only half a club to save. Nothing like you remember.    Almost like I remember

Not really sure why you seem to be getting irate. The only thing that wasn't quite right was that the "Ioan" was made just before KT
arrived not after although as you've just stated yourself wasn't made public until after he'd taken over, so easy mistake to make, sorry. So my original post wasn't 100% incorrect it was probably 95% correct.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 03, 2021, 18:00:53 pm
Not really sure why you seem to be getting irate. The only thing that wasn't quite right was that the "Ioan" was made just before KT
arrived not after although as you've just stated yourself wasn't made public until after he'd taken over, so easy mistake to make, sorry. So my original post wasn't 100% incorrect it was probably 95% correct.
It was actually 66.6 % correct  ;) Although I thought it was obvious that we had bucket collections and an online collection so I wasn't including the obvious.
   


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Shoemender on September 03, 2021, 18:57:48 pm
It was actually 66.6 % correct  ;) Although I thought it was obvious that we had bucket collections and an online collection so I wasn't including the obvious.
   

The only reason I included the obvious was because 1 or 2 people were suggesting they only gave to the cause to help the staff and I was just pointing out that the buckets were out and the online appeal were to help save the club, it was only afterwards that some of that money was used to pay the staff. I think you've misconstrued my original intention. I'll leave it there. ???


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 03, 2021, 21:47:35 pm
More importantly. Where is the rest of the money that was raised for THE CLUB at that time?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Zen Master on September 03, 2021, 22:18:40 pm
It must be sitting in the trusts account and shown in the accounts submitted to companies house surely?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on September 03, 2021, 22:36:59 pm
More importantly. Where is the rest of the money that was raised for THE CLUB at that time?



Oh yeah thats the most important question at this time  ::) ::)

Where do you think it is ?  You know the people involved, you saying you don't trust them?  Would you like them to close the accounts and transfer the money straight to KT/DB?

Perhaps when they can, they should book holidays flights to Florida to meet with the owners representative Mr Kelvin Thomas

Also anyone know how much a shareholding KT has?



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on September 04, 2021, 00:08:23 am
Oh yeah thats the most important question at this time  ::) ::)

Where do you think it is ?  You know the people involved, you saying you don't trust them?  Would you like them to close the accounts and transfer the money straight to KT/DB?

Perhaps when they can, they should book holidays flights to Florida to meet with the owners representative Mr Kelvin Thomas

Also anyone know how much a shareholding KT has?



Northampton Town Football Club is 84.58% owned by Northampton Town Ventures. Northampton Town Ventures shares (1000) owned 10% by KT (100), 10% by DB in his name (100) and 80% by DB/JB (his wife).....

Therefore KT owns 8.458% of the Football Club.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Manwork04 on September 04, 2021, 09:37:29 am
Northampton Town Football Club is 84.58% owned by Northampton Town Ventures. Northampton Town Ventures shares (1000) owned 10% by KT (100), 10% by DB in his name (100) and 80% by DB/JB (his wife).....

Therefore KT owns 8.458% of the Football Club.
Doesnít the Trust still have a small ownership mate?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 04, 2021, 10:41:08 am
Oh yeah thats the most important question at this time  ::) ::)

Where do you think it is ?  You know the people involved, you saying you don't trust them?  Would you like them to close the accounts and transfer the money straight to KT/DB?

Perhaps when they can, they should book holidays flights to Florida to meet with the owners representative Mr Kelvin Thomas

Also anyone know how much a shareholding KT has?



Bleating on about ten ground, that doesnít even belong to those who gave it away is ridiculous. KT was not in charge at that time. He doesnít see it as his debt. So you and your friends should get the fcuk over it. The public petty points scoring from you and your cronies, is about as unclassy and unedifying as you can get. That donation helped preserve the staff and the club. Rather than that being an issue, it should be what ALL of the money should be used for. Imagine how the staff of the club feel once again, having there situation aired on a public forum. Having theirs and the clubs embarrassment thrown up, just to service an obsession.









Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 04, 2021, 11:51:32 am
Bleating on about ten ground, that doesnít even belong to those who gave it away is ridiculous. KT was not in charge at that time. He doesnít see it as his debt. So you and your friends should get the fcuk over it. The public petty points scoring from you and your cronies, is about as unclassy and unedifying as you can get. That donation helped preserve the staff and the club. Rather than that being an issue, it should be what ALL of the money should be used for. Imagine how the staff of the club feel once again, having there situation aired on a public forum. Having theirs and the clubs embarrassment thrown up, just to service an obsession.
I know you love to get your digs in Nigel, but please get the facts correct, the first mention of the "loan" recently in this thread was by tcobb  when he said "How many times have certain people referred to the money given to the Club as being a loan?" a couple of days ago. You accused people associated with the Trust of raising this subject, when it was raised by tcobb , who I don't think would be classed as an associate of the Trust, or maybe he's seen the error of his ways  ;) ;D ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on September 04, 2021, 13:24:33 pm
Funny how you want us to shut up embarrassing KT, yet never question any of the spin he puts out of a semi-regular basis.

Again tell me 3 things KT has done in 6 years to move the club forward. BTW If you want to talk about the Community Trust work, please can you ask him how much he / the club put in over the £560k they get each year from the FA to run it.

As far as I understand it, they are a separate entity from the club and receiving their funding separately too, so not really fair to say KT has had too much input there. But just to let you know the Trust HAS put money into the football in the community with the ladies team before.







Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 04, 2021, 14:30:30 pm
I know you love to get your digs in Nigel, but please get the facts correct, the first mention of the "loan" recently in this thread was by tcobb  when he said "How many times have certain people referred to the money given to the Club as being a loan?" a couple of days ago. You accused people associated with the Trust of raising this subject, when it was raised by tcobb , who I don't think would be classed as an associate of the Trust, or maybe he's seen the error of his ways  ;) ;D ;D

Absolutely right it was raised by tcobb. It wasnít a couple of days ago.

And look at what he wrote

ď Random   yes I did put money in the buckets last time, as the call was going out to raise money to give to the unpaid staff. Wish I hadn't, look at the way that money is now0 being used as a weapon against the Club. Never again will I donate money to anything fan ledĒ.

And look just how right he was. Rather than Trust and ex Trust members letting it go, they argue once again how they think the money that was given, should be retrieved. Highlighting the desperation of those poor sods who needed the money. Quoting things they said at that terrible time, to publicly shame they.

Imagine how refreshing it would have been, to take the opportunity to just let it go. Rather than to ďweaponiseĒ that difficult time. This argument is nothing to do with KT. He wasnít even at the club. And as far as I know, neither you or any ex/current board member, can even suggest he knew anything about the loan when it was handed over. I would imagine that James Whilting, faced with trying to keep the club alive, and the stark reality of losing his staff, did say some things he felt necessary to keep his and their heads above water. I canít imagine for one second that he thought in doing so, that he would find himself being quoted all these years later to bolster a pathetic and unnecessary argument 🙄🙄

Like iI said. Any money that was donated for the club, should go to the club. Without any excuses. It should absolutely not benefit the owners, but should be handed over to benefit the club and its supporters. There is so many was in which that could be done. If people are aware of money that exists, that is being withheld from its intended destination, then I see them in a very precarious position when it comes to being pious.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 04, 2021, 17:50:12 pm
Absolutely right it was raised by tcobb. It wasnít a couple of days ago.  Post was dated 2nd Sept, so it was a couple of days ago



And look just how right he was. Rather than Trust and ex Trust members letting it go, they argue once again how they think the money that was given, should be retrieved. Again I repeat it was not mentioned by anyone with any connection to the Trust. Also there is no "how they think the money was given" What I've posted is 100% the truth and you DO know that don't you Nigel

Imagine how refreshing it would have been, to take the opportunity to just let it go. It had been let go
I would imagine that James Whilting, faced with trying to keep the club alive, and the stark reality of losing his staff, did say some things he felt necessary to keep his and their heads above water. I canít imagine for one second that he thought in doing so, that he would find himself being quoted all these years later to bolster a pathetic and unnecessary argument 🙄🙄 He wouldn't have been had tcobb not bought up the subject

Like iI said. Any money that was donated for the club, should go to the club. Without any excuses. But the majority of the fans voted differently, it's called democracy



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on September 04, 2021, 18:01:22 pm
See you replied to only the bits you wanted to Hammy

OK, lets try another one, we have had 7 managers in 6 years of KT's control,

1. Is that good for the club?
2. If not who is responsible?
3. How big a part of the club's debt of £7m approx is a result of employing and firing 5 of those managers?

Others please feel free to answer

Also waiting for the 3 reasons KT is good for our club


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 04, 2021, 19:37:39 pm
Itís not personal and it has nothing to do with any organisation. Money was donated for the club. By whatever design it is achieved, it should be used for the club.

The conversation with James Whiting should have remained confidential. It was held during an incredibly stressful time for him and the staff. As I said in the Trust meeting at the Guildhall many moons back.. If it worries anyone on the Trust board about the status of the money, have the balls to pursue it. Iím sure the Trust declared the transaction through the appropriate channels at the time, so if they want it back, go for it. If not, the term loan, should be graciously abandoned by all Trust Board members. Both current and very attached ex members 😜😜.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 04, 2021, 20:39:06 pm
Money was donated for the club. By whatever design it is achieved, it should be used for the club.

The conversation with James Whiting should have remained confidential. It was held during an incredibly stressful time for him and the staff.. If it worries anyone on the Trust board about the status of the money, have the balls to pursue it. Iím sure the Trust declared the transaction through the appropriate channels at the time, so if they want it back, go for it. If not, the term loan, should be graciously abandoned by all Trust Board members. Both current and very attached ex members 😜😜.
I fail to see which part of "This wasn't bought up by anyone remotely connected to the Trust" you can't understand ?? It was bought up by tcobb, which you haven't denied, so there's your answer
   And I'll repeat it again. the money was donated to the Trust, after KT's takeover the Trust asked the fans to vote about what to do with the remaining money and the answer of that vote was "Keep it for a rainy day" baring in mind we had had 2 "rainy days" in the previous 25 years. I'm sorry that the majority didn't vote the way YOU wanted but that's democracy for you. You can keep posting every few months, stirring the pot, but it won't change what was voted for by the majority of fans. So maybe it's your turn to let it go 


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on September 04, 2021, 20:47:26 pm
Absolutely right it was raised by tcobb. It wasnít a couple of days ago.

And look at what he wrote

ď Random   yes I did put money in the buckets last time, as the call was going out to raise money to give to the unpaid staff. Wish I hadn't, look at the way that money is now0 being used as a weapon against the Club. Never again will I donate money to anything fan ledĒ.

And look just how right he was. Rather than Trust and ex Trust members letting it go, they argue once again how they think the money that was given, should be retrieved. Highlighting the desperation of those poor sods who needed the money. Quoting things they said at that terrible time, to publicly shame they.

Imagine how refreshing it would have been, to take the opportunity to just let it go. Rather than to ďweaponiseĒ that difficult time. This argument is nothing to do with KT. He wasnít even at the club. And as far as I know, neither you or any ex/current board member, can even suggest he knew anything about the loan when it was handed over. I would imagine that James Whilting, faced with trying to keep the club alive, and the stark reality of losing his staff, did say some things he felt necessary to keep his and their heads above water. I canít imagine for one second that he thought in doing so, that he would find himself being quoted all these years later to bolster a pathetic and unnecessary argument 🙄🙄

Like iI said. Any money that was donated for the club, should go to the club. Without any excuses. It should absolutely not benefit the owners, but should be handed over to benefit the club and its supporters. There is so many was in which that could be done. If people are aware of money that exists, that is being withheld from its intended destination, then I see them in a very precarious position when it comes to being pious.


You are obviously a very bitter man. What turned you so disagreeable towards the Trust.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Keith on September 04, 2021, 20:51:30 pm
You are obviously a very bitter man. What turned you so disagreeable towards the Trust.

He's very bitter cos he couldn't reach the toys that got thrown out of his pram


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 04, 2021, 23:03:21 pm
I fail to see which part of "This wasn't bought up by anyone remotely connected to the Trust" you can't understand ?? It was bought up by tcobb, which you haven't denied, so there's your answer
   And I'll repeat it again. the money was donated to the Trust, after KT's takeover the Trust asked the fans to vote about what to do with the remaining money and the answer of that vote was "Keep it for a rainy day" baring in mind we had had 2 "rainy days" in the previous 25 years. I'm sorry that the majority didn't vote the way YOU wanted but that's democracy for you. You can keep posting every few months, stirring the pot, but it won't change what was voted for by the majority of fans. So maybe it's your turn to let it go 

It wasnít bought up by the Trust. But you kept to their defence nice again. Quoting a private conversation, from a guy who trusted you.



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 04, 2021, 23:10:08 pm
You are obviously a very bitter man. What turned you so disagreeable towards the Trust.

If Iím bitter for confronting those that rejoice in every opportunity to tear the club apartÖ Iíll take that every day.  ;D ;D



Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on September 04, 2021, 23:33:51 pm
Tearing the club apart, ok, what about the owners who are letting the stadium fall apart

Thats where I don't mind being called bitter or having a hidden agenda

Once again, it is a shame that supporters can't pull together for the good of the club.

Perhaps the line is drawn on one side with supporters who want more from their club / owners and the other that are simply happy to support any owner as long as they have a club to support. They feel that any analysis of their owners is trying to tear the club apart.

STILL WAITING FOR 3 GOOD REASONS......... I will keep asking




Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on September 05, 2021, 00:01:43 am
A few personal observations.

When an organisation such as the Trust facilitate a ďloanĒ such as they did in those circumstances it would be virtually impossible to dictate any outcome. Therefore to retrospectively apply any sort of caveat regarding the money is naive, it should never have been perceived as a loan it could only ever be a donation in those circumstances. Genuine question when the Trust raised money in the past has any money been paid back by any new owners or even asked for. If the answer is yes then the Trust are clearly acting on standard policy. If the answer is no then why make demands this time when previously it was not an considered an issue.

Presumably the staff ended up with the money, so if it was only ever a loan the Trust should perhaps ask them for it back as they were ultimately the beneficiaries. If itís not political and only about the money then thatís probably the correct approach.

The current owners have absolutely no responsibility for the money paid by the Trust. However it was a commendable act of the Trust, fulfilling its duty and role as guardians of the club in times of crisis. Whilst there was no obligation on the part of the new owners to do so, it would have been the decent thing to do to pay the Trust back the money and itís slightly disappointing they didnít. I would suggest that if the owners eventually make some significant sums from their tenure, they could perhaps repay the money then, plus interest. They have often stated that they would like a legacy that showed they acted in the best interest of the club and supporters. At the end of the day it is not the Trusts money but the supporters, who dug deep out of love of the club when it needed them most. Therefore it would be nice if the money was returned to the Trust and by default the supporters for future use in the event there was some significant profit made from any ownership. To repeat thereís no obligation to do this obviously, but it would be a fine gesture and the right thing to do. At least thatís what I think.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Deepcut Cobbler on September 05, 2021, 00:14:39 am
Wasn't the loan repayment deferred by The Trust in order to assist/fund something for the benefit of the supporters? I'm not saying it was for it, but wasn't the fans 'village' mentioned?

Can someone confirm if this was the case?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 05, 2021, 09:03:20 am
Tearing the club apart, ok, what about the owners who are letting the stadium fall apart

Thats where I don't mind being called bitter or having a hidden agenda

Once again, it is a shame that supporters can't pull together for the good of the club.

Perhaps the line is drawn on one side with supporters who want more from their club / owners and the other that are simply happy to support any owner as long as they have a club to support. They feel that any analysis of their owners is trying to tear the club apart.

STILL WAITING FOR 3 GOOD REASONS......... I will keep asking




Iím never going to answer your foolish three good reasons. But I will address one point you make. Neither you, Roger, or in fact any of your like minded people have the ability to conceive another perspective. If I criticise the Trust, ipso facto, I am anti Trust. If I refuse to criticise KT on something, ipso facto, I am his greatest admirer. I have said over and over. Neither of them in my opinion care about the support. They have entered into what has effectively become a race to the bottom. Both parties show an astonishing degree of arrogance, all to the detriment of the club and its support. In all honesty, I would not have commented about the loan. But I found it so unfair that someone outs a private conversation, of a clearly desperate person, to score a point or to on a public forum. Then wonders why the staff at NTFC donít care much for the Trust or itís ex members. I'm bored of all of them, and there hangers on.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 05, 2021, 10:59:50 am
It wasnít bought up by the Trust. But you kept to their defence nice again. Quoting a private conversation, from a guy who trusted you.
It's nice that you now admit that the subject of the loan wasn't bought up by anyone associated with the Trust, after you accused people of refusing to "Let it Go" Good to see you admit that it's another thing you've got wrong
Regarding the last part of your sentence, this has been extremely well documented over the years, there are no secrets. Isn't it a bit ironic that you are slagging me off for giving some details yet the Trust gets slagged off all the time, by certain posters on here, for being too secretive. Dammed in you do, dammed if you don't !


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: CJ on September 05, 2021, 11:21:16 am
It's nice that you now admit that the subject of the loan wasn't bought up by anyone associated with the Trust, after you accused people of refusing to "Let it Go" Good to see you admit that it's another thing you've got wrong
Regarding the last part of your sentence, this has been extremely well documented over the years, there are no secrets. Isn't it a bit ironic that you are slagging me off for giving some details yet the Trust gets slagged off all the time, by certain posters on here, for being too secretive. Dammed in you do, dammed if you don't !
Could you please divulge further details regarding the end point of the monies given by the Trust to the club Carton. Could you name theose employees that James awarded the wonga to and on what basis did he divvy it up?
No, perhaps not, that really would give some people something to get arsey about.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: random on September 05, 2021, 12:05:19 pm
LOL Hammy, so it's foolish to think that a supporter of KT would not be willing to list 3 of his good points, interesting.

Sorry re the Trust loan to the club, that has been me putting that one out there. IMHO, it was a measure of the owners that they are not interested in the long standing supporters of the club they took over,  as was their insistence that there was no supporter representation on the board.(think we all know why now) The Trust did not make the loan public, I did. But if KT had done the decent thing and returned the money then we would never having been having this conversation. That should be the real focus.





Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: FezNTFC on September 05, 2021, 12:44:54 pm
Carton you know exactly what I'm saying ,how many times have certain people referred to the money given to the Club as being a loan? That money was given by fans for the benefit of the staff, not too be used as a loan.
And here we have the usual root cause of the problem.

Once again someone fails to discern between 'the Trust' and 'certain people' (who aren't even board members) posting in their own capacity.

I doubt the £10k has been mentioned by either the Trust or football club in a good three years, because the matter was settled in both sets of accounts.

Two more pages of divisive nonsense due to you just making something up.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 05, 2021, 13:43:07 pm
And here we have the usual root cause of the problem.

Once again someone fails to discern between 'the Trust' and 'certain people' (who aren't even board members) posting in their own capacity.

I doubt the £10k has been mentioned by either the Trust or football club in a good three years, because the matter was settled in both sets of accounts.

Two more pages of divisive nonsense due to you just making something up.

You mind you donít fall off that horse and land on that shiny sword  ;D ;D


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 05, 2021, 13:48:21 pm
LOL Hammy, so it's foolish to think that a supporter of KT would not be willing to list 3 of his good points, interesting.

Sorry re the Trust loan to the club, that has been me putting that one out there. IMHO, it was a measure of the owners that they are not interested in the long standing supporters of the club they took over,  as was their insistence that there was no supporter representation on the board.(think we all know why now) The Trust did not make the loan public, I did. But if KT had done the decent thing and returned the money then we would never having been having this conversation. That should be the real focus.





I could list numerous positives about KT's time at the club. I could just as easily mention as many positives about the Trust. But where would the fun be in that? All those barrack room lawyers and chest puffers need a decent foil. After all. Thereís a danger that someone might actually listen to them. What a mess weíd be in thenÖÖ BTWÖ. Whenís that oil rising to the top? 😀😀😀 UTC


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on September 05, 2021, 18:30:50 pm
Just to clarify a couple of points. I stated "certain people" had brought the subject of the loan in the past, because I didn't know if they were/are Trust members, that's the reason I used that term. I asked anybody to clarify if money was raised after "the Club asked for help" don't think any body has answered that query.  I was reasonably clear in my mind that I gave money after the Club had asked for help, I gave money on the understanding that it was to be given to the staff.
The subject has been raised in the past on this forum by a few people, myself included, I raised it again as a reason why I will not support any future fan based initiatives.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: SadOldGit on September 05, 2021, 19:03:00 pm
Just to clarify a couple of points. I stated "certain people" had brought the subject of the loan in the past, because I didn't know if they were/are Trust members, that's the reason I used that term. I asked anybody to clarify if money was raised after "the Club asked for help" don't think any body has answered that query.  I was reasonably clear in my mind that I gave money after the Club had asked for help, I gave money on the understanding that it was to be given to the staff.
The subject has been raised in the past on this forum by a few people, myself included, I raised it again as a reason why I will not support any future fan based initiatives.

Shucks.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 05, 2021, 19:56:47 pm
Just to clarify a couple of points. I stated "certain people" had brought the subject of the loan in the past, because I didn't know if they were/are Trust members, that's the reason I used that term. I asked anybody to clarify if money was raised after "the Club asked for help" don't think any body has answered that query.  I was reasonably clear in my mind that I gave money after the Club had asked for help, I gave money on the understanding that it was to be given to the staff.
Please see my answer to your questions on Page 39 of this thread, posted on 3rd Sept at 10.44.35 am, which does clarify the timetable of the raised money, the club didn't go public with any "Ask for help"  so therefore you didn't donate any money with any particular aims. The money raising went on for 2 -3 weeks before KT's takeover, at no time did the Trust collect money specifically to pay the staff. I hope that helps you.


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: tcobb on September 05, 2021, 20:19:31 pm
Thanks for the reply, i did ask if any monies were collected after the Club asked for help, your previous reply wasnt clear on time scales. Any idea when it was made public the Club had asked for help ?


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 05, 2021, 20:56:53 pm
  the club didn't go public with any "Ask for help" 

They left that to you  ;D ;D :P :P


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Carton Lid on September 05, 2021, 23:52:13 pm
They left that to you  ;D ;D :P :P

Surely that was you when you told everybody where they were going wrong at the Guildhall, one of your many memorable speeches  ;) ::)


Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Terryfenwickatemyhamster on September 06, 2021, 20:57:34 pm
Surely that was you when you told everybody where they were going wrong at the Guildhall, one of your many memorable speeches  ;) ::)

I didnít actually tell them where they were going wrong. Kev did that. As usual they were toing and froing about the next car boot sale, or it might have been about having a sponsored knitting race for the Earls Barton church fate. AnywayÖ I remember somebody sneezed and it woke me up, just as you was moaning about the loan. All I said was either pursue it or forget it. I realise now how wildly optimistic the ďforget itĒ bit was.. Never mind eh mate. Itís a welcome distraction from that BIG news they have up their sleeves ennit?  8) ;D :P :P





Title: Re: New Trust statement on club finances
Post by: Ragdoll Cobbler on September 07, 2021, 22:29:07 pm
From twitter...

Four members of the Trust's board met with representatives of West Northants Council @WestNorthants this evening to express our concerns about the potential Sixfields stand and land deal.  We would like to thank the councillors for their time.  Details to follow soon. #ntfc