The Hotel End

I think we're straying into absolutism again here - agree with taking the knee = good, disagree with taking the knee = bad.

It's really not that simple. When Colin Kaepernick took the knee it was a powerful individual gesture. When other American sports men and women followed suit it was also a deeply symbolic display and I loved seeing it.

Somehow along the way, that gesture has been co-opted by Black Lives Matter and at this point is irrevocably linked to them. 

To make my position absolutely clear on this, I'm not a part of the "all lives matter" brigade. I get the distinction and I agree that black lives matter (the principle). I'm just deeply uncomfortable with Black Lives Matter (the organisation). Their stated aims go way beyond their remit and by adopting their salute of sorts, whether they mean to or not, footballers are implicitly signalling their support for that organisation. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, it's a bit like a German player doing a Nazi salute as a goal celebration and then saying "Well, it was a tribute to my grandfather who fought in the war, it's nothing to do with the Nazis" - it wouldn't wash because that gesture is intrinsically and inseparably linked. That's probably a bit of a crass metaphor, but like it or not, adopting a gesture linked to a particular organisation suggests support for that organisation.

If football was to come up with its own gesture to symbolise racial equality, be it an arms folded stance or hopping up and down on one leg for all I care, I'd happily applaud it whenever it was taken. I won't applaud a gesture that glorifies a Marxist organisation that wants to see the police defunded, capitalism deconstructed, drugs decriminalised (along with all drugs-based convictions quashed) and, in the past at least, has advocated getting rid of the concept of the nuclear family.

That said, I wouldn't boo it either because booing is a blunt instrument that sends the wrong signals and plays into the hands of those who are happy to dismiss any dissenting voices as racists.

That's why people get irritated when virtue signallers like Rio Ferdinand and Gary Lineker make pronouncements from their high horses about people "getting educated" because that cuts both ways! I don't doubt that footballers are taking the knee with honest and admirable intentions, I do doubt that many of them realise the full extent of the message that gesture gives.

Your right, there is absolutely no link between the organisation and the gesture. A group of extreme ideologues decided to take the name BLM years AFTER Colin Kaepernick started to making a point about police abuse in the US. There's people who are VERY invested in making you think there is a link though to discredit it, I wonder why that is.  ??? ???

I absolutely happy to accept the criticism that the action is an empty gesture at times, but 'Kneeling makes you secretly communist' is a dumb take.

Yes it would be, but that's not what I said. What it DOES do is legitimise an organisation in the eyes of a wider world of people who don't do their own research. 

BLM have, in my opinion, some seriously questionable views that go far beyond the admirable equality stance that makes up 95% of the coverage they receive. When the focus sits almost entirely on one aspect whilst ignoring what else they stand for it helps to put them on a pedestal where they are beyond reproach because, hey, how dare you criticise BLM? What are you? A racist!?!

For the record, if you care to look back through my posts at some point I admitted that I didn't know too much about BLM and then later reached a conclusion after doing some research. I certainly wasn't "hoodwinked" by the agenda of any newspapers or media outlets during this because the source of my research was BLM's own website!

Once footballers have rid the world of racism what are they taking on next?

Peace in the Middle East? Prevent global warming?

An ill thought out gesture that obviously divides people, exactly what they're trying to prevent. They jumped on a woke media bandwaggon and now they cant backtrack.

I'm with Ivan Toney, get off the bloody floor and play football.

Once footballers have rid the world of racism what are they taking on next?

Peace in the Middle East? Prevent global warming?

An ill thought out gesture that obviously divides people, exactly what they're trying to prevent. They jumped on a woke media bandwaggon and now they cant backtrack.

I'm with Ivan Toney, get off the bloody floor and play football.

It doesn't matter if you are black or white, anyone can take a sh*t penalty.
Although it probably won't go down too well if the new generation of the three amigos try to flog some pizza.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvZWGYkTR7U

I think Toney's comment was aimed at BAS rather than anything BLM related!  ;)

Completely agree with everything you've said in this thread, BOTN, and well put. The problem is, it is easy to claim now that "taking the knee is a stance against racism," but the original mantra stated it was "in support of Black Lives Matter," and those two things don't neccesarily equate to the same thing.

Let's be honest, taking the knee is a hollow gesture (at least after the first few occasions), and it is also becming a self-fullfilling prophesy. To clarify exactly what I mean by this: I am old enough to remember the 70s and 80s, when racism cut a very real scar across this nation - and it was often savage (both physically and verbally). Does it still exist? Of course. It exists in many forms and in many 'different' camps, because there will always be dickheads who lack brain cells. But I honestly don't see Britain as being divided by colour, not anymore (religious ideology most definitely, but not skin colour). Today's younger generations do not even see people based on their colour, but the media continues to plug the BLM headline.
The majority of people today do not dislike someone because of the colour of their skin, but the current agenda being driven by the BBC and their ilk is creating a lot of ill will among white people sick of hearing about how poorly their fellow countrymen (and women) are being treated - by white society. People are sick of BLM monopalizing the headlines.

As for the racial abuse that followed the game. Dreadful. But there will always be idiots - amd I'm sure many of them took it as a misguided opportunity to fire back at the constant stream of BLM promoted issues. But, do you remember the slaughtering that Gareth Southgate took in the past? The things said to him, and about his family, were equally appalling - perhaps even worse.
To be honest, it should be easy enough to close down the accounts of those people who post such hate online - although I appreciate that it would only be a short term fix. Should racism be dealt with? Of course. But stop using sports as a flogging horse for divisive agendas. Stop taking the knee.

My personal view is this. I only care about what the affected people think about this. If the majority are reassured or are similarly positively affected by the gesture then for me it’s a good thing. Takes seconds and no effort, so given those people sometimes have negative experiences, why not partake in a simple gesture to show support. Absolutely meaningless exercise for me, but if just one little kid can see people care and stand in support with them then for me it’s worth it. I get there may be concerns with it being hijacked by certain groups but I couldn’t give a t0ss about them.

Back at you Jolly... good post.

You're right about the younger generation. A few years back, rather sweetly, we had to explain what racism was to our then 8 or 9 year old daughter who really couldn't get her head around why anyone would be racist (once she knew what it meant!). She really was agog and just couldn't understand why anyone would act that way. That said, I'm conscious that she's been raised in a relatively middle class bubble where most of the parents are generally better educated, which generally goes hand in hand with more liberal attitudes. To continue the sweeping generalisation, I think in some less well to do areas there's less of an enlightened view that's been passed down from parent to child over the last few generations, particularly in less cosmopolitan areas where there are fewer people of colour, and that's predominantly where the overt racism still exists (I'm thinking mostly of the type of areas where the BNP and formerly UKIP have previously done reasonably well in elections).

I must say as well, I've bitten my virtual lip a few times in the last couple of days on the topic of Sancho, Sako and Rashford in comparison to previous players who've **** up at tournaments. In particular I've seen one post doing the rounds listing Gary and Phil Neville, Beckham and Southgate among white players who've also made mistakes and not been abused the way the latest set of lads have. Are they kidding?!? Some of the abuse thrown at them at the time was horrific! It just wasn't racial in nature, but it was vicious and cruel and totally disproportionate to their "crimes".

I'm in no way excusing the racial abuse. Yes, all three that missed were black, but that's purely coincidental and in no way a factor in the fact they all missed. Unfortunately the mindset of the sort of morons who go to town on an individual will focus on the easy route to abusing someone, and in the case of Sancho, Rashford and Sako that has been their colour. Had it been Kane or Maguire who missed I'm sure they would have found something else to go for. There's just some nasty, stupid f***ers out there who give football supporters in general a bad rep.

Absolutely. Whether someone has a big head or a big nose, or a hair lip or ginger hair, the haters will always hate and always go for the easiest target. And the media loves to throw fuel on a story.

It's a grey area.

For what its worth I agree with the players taking the knee, racism is still a big part of our society and if you don't stand up then it grows. In my opinion if you don't call someone out when they make racist comments then thats on you for not standing up for an equal society.

Pretty much my views - extremist groups will always hijack causes (The National Front very much hijacked the Union flag in the 70’s but people didn’t boo the Queen when she raised that flag alongside the royal standard on public occasions)
Of course people have the right to boo - personally I reserve that for poor sportsmanship and getting into the opposition but hearing it for players taking the knee or other national anthems is for me simply embarrassing.

"The Knee" has created the very thing people hoped that it would condemn.
The Knee, like it or not, is associated with BLM; who are publicised as being a questionable organisation who claim to support a convicted US criminal, the de-funding of police, violent protests etc.
Despite the protestations/claims of the England team, that mud has stuck and will never be removed.

It was noticeable that SKY Sports ditched their BLM campaign and reverted to the 'Kick It Out'/'No Room for Racism' campaigns, almost immediately after the initial objections and well before the England Internationals.
We need to remain and concentrate on the existing campaigns, not one that has a questionable source that divides opinion.

Personally, I hope that The Cobblers do NOT continue with the pre-match taking of The Knee.
If they do, I will not boo, but I will stay on the concourse until The Knee has been completed and then take my seat.

The existing campaigns need to be promoted and afforded the requisite prominence in order to defeat racism in society as a whole, not just in football.

"The Knee" has created the very thing people hoped that it would condemn.
The Knee, like it or not, is associated with BLM; who are publicised as being a questionable organisation who claim to support a convicted US criminal, the de-funding of police, violent protests etc.
Despite the protestations/claims of the England team, that mud has stuck and will never be removed.

It was noticeable that SKY Sports ditched their BLM campaign and reverted to the 'Kick It Out'/'No Room for Racism' campaigns, almost immediately after the initial objections and well before the England Internationals.
We need to remain and concentrate on the existing campaigns, not one that has a questionable source that divides opinion.

Personally, I hope that The Cobblers do NOT continue with the pre-match taking of The Knee.
If they do, I will not boo, but I will stay on the concourse until The Knee has been completed and then take my seat.

The existing campaigns need to be promoted and afforded the requisite prominence in order to defeat racism in society as a whole, not just in football.

I will boo the fcuk out of it,

Quite possibly the most predictable post of the thread - pretty much everyone has expressed concerns on the BLM “political” organisation but have also had the intelligence to take a lateral view on the discussion.

I will boo the fcuk out of it, what did the leader of BLM tweet, “All white men should be black men’s slaves” WTF it works both ways Sasha.
Anyone notice the woke w@nkers at the BBC headline when Sasha Johnson was shot claiming it was possibly a racially motivated shooting, when it came to light it was another bruv that had shot her you never heard of it again!

Debunked and accepted as FAKE NEWS.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/28/facebook-posts/no-british-blm-leader-did-not-tweet-about-enslavin/

Manny please check your facts before coming on spewing bile and hatred.

What’s lateral about black racists?

I will boo the fcuk out of it, what did the leader of BLM tweet, “All white men should be black men’s slaves” WTF it works both ways Sasha.
Anyone notice the woke w@nkers at the BBC headline when Sasha Johnson was shot claiming it was possibly a racially motivated shooting, when it came to light it was another bruv that had shot her you never heard of it again!