The Hotel End

The Hotel End => Cobblers Corner => Topic started by: guest1269 on August 14, 2021, 22:23:45 pm



Title: iFollow
Post by: guest1269 on August 14, 2021, 22:23:45 pm
So taking some of the threads from the Colchester game and folks complaining they couldnít stream the game - my understanding was if you had an UK IP address you could watch away games but not home games - non uk residents or an overseas billing address and IP (so a vpn is not sufficient) can stream both home and away - it seems now UK residents can see no Saturday 15.00 KO game so why the **** would anyone subscribe to iFollow? - is this a change of policy or have I missed something for the last 3 years?


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Ryan Amoo 14 on August 14, 2021, 22:55:31 pm
So taking some of the threads from the Colchester game and folks complaining they couldn’t stream the game - my understanding was if you had an UK IP address you could watch away games but not home games - non uk residents or an overseas billing address and IP (so a vpn is not sufficient) can stream both home and away - it seems now UK residents can see no Saturday 15.00 KO game so why the **** would anyone subscribe to iFollow? - is this a change of policy or have I missed something for the last 3 years?

Has always been that way (i.e. no 3pm Saturday games streamable within the UK).  Only exception was last season due to COVID.

It has to be said it's an incredibly painless workaround to stream via VPN if you do wish to watch inside the UK though.  Payment via Paypal is now accepted so there's no credit card validation which is reliant on a non-UK billing address.



Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: tcobb on August 14, 2021, 23:45:11 pm
Yeh it has only been available during Covid for the 3.00pm games, was never available before then. So it's just back to normal.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: NathR on August 15, 2021, 07:04:46 am
Itís not in the clubs control.   There is a rule (assume FA) that no televised games can been shown in this country @ 3pm on a Saturday afternoon, hence why Sky / BT game times are earlier or later.  This includes streaming online live games.  I thought that mid week games are fine to watch live on I-follow, but I may be wrong.   I-follow does show the full game and around 10mins worth of extended highlights a few hours after the Saturday games which is free, you just have to register. 


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: SadOldGit on August 15, 2021, 07:49:32 am
Perhaps someone could outline an idiot's guide on here that clearly shows the vpn 'fix' to watch in this country. I am sure a lot of folk would not know how to achieve this.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: guest1269 on August 15, 2021, 08:31:00 am
Perhaps someone could outline an idiot's guide on here that clearly shows the vpn 'fix' to watch in this country. I am sure a lot of folk would not know how to achieve this.

Just install a vpn package ( the better ones do charge but check reviews) - I use Nord. Once installed you simply select a country you wish to appear to be in (itís related to your IP address it automatically generates) - from an iFollow perspective you are then an overseas subscriber and can stream - to be honest I thought the problem was you have to give a billing address for a payment card that is non UK but earlier someone said you can pay for iFollow without giving an address via PayPal (personally I am a legitimate overseas subscriber but use a vpn to watch Sky, iPlayer etc)


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: SadOldGit on August 15, 2021, 09:14:51 am
Just install a vpn package ( the better ones do charge but check reviews) - I use Nord. Once installed you simply select a country you wish to appear to be in (itís related to your IP address it automatically generates) - from an iFollow perspective you are then an overseas subscriber and can stream - to be honest I thought the problem was you have to give a billing address for a payment card that is non UK but earlier someone said you can pay for iFollow without giving an address via PayPal (personally I am a legitimate overseas subscriber but use a vpn to watch Sky, iPlayer etc)


Sorry to appear ignorant but if you are a legitimate overseas subscriber why do you use a vpn?


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Manwork04 on August 15, 2021, 09:57:42 am

Sorry to appear ignorant but if you are a legitimate overseas subscriber why do you use a vpn?
Cyber security.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: CobblersToMePod on August 15, 2021, 10:03:51 am
Personally, I've never been very good with computers and while I have attempted to use vpn's in the past for other, work related things, I've never found it easy to do.

I'm also too much of a goody two shoes to say I'm happy to find a work around. My point is that the 3pm blackout law is out of date having been created in the 1960's and should be rescinded.

There is no evidence that attendances would be affected negatively.

The biggest example is how it works in America for the NFL. Clubs (or franchises if you prefer) stream their own matches for a fee whilst also selling out their ridiculously large stadiums. Plus, their ticket prices are at least 3 times as much as we pay at Sixfields.

There are also examples in other entertainment sectors.

The rise of Netflix hasn't stopped people going to the cinema and Spotify hasn't stopped people from going to live music gigs.

As we have talked about so many times over the last 18 months, going to the football is about a lot more than just watching the game. It is an experience that can't be replicated through the tv screen.

I can understand the concerns people have about games in the middle of December against Stevenage on a Tuesday evening but I look at it another way. The clubs would be forced to think about their offering and up their game in order to attract fans. Again, this is something that has been talked about recently and has seemingly failed to get off the ground.

I appreciate that I am incredibly biased on this subject, being exiled as I am but I know it wouldn't affect my decision to attend the games that I can go to. If anything, it would allow the club to make more money out of my support than they have done for the last 15 years.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Manwork04 on August 15, 2021, 10:12:09 am
Personally, I've never been very good with computers and while I have attempted to use vpn's in the past for other, work related things, I've never found it easy to do.

I'm also too much of a goody two shoes to say I'm happy to find a work around. My point is that the 3pm blackout law is out of date having been created in the 1960's and should be rescinded.

There is no evidence that attendances would be affected negatively.

The biggest example is how it works in America for the NFL. Clubs (or franchises if you prefer) stream their own matches for a fee whilst also selling out their ridiculously large stadiums. Plus, their ticket prices are at least 3 times as much as we pay at Sixfields.

There are also examples in other entertainment sectors.

The rise of Netflix hasn't stopped people going to the cinema and Spotify hasn't stopped people from going to live music gigs.

As we have talked about so many times over the last 18 months, going to the football is about a lot more than just watching the game. It is an experience that can't be replicated through the tv screen.

I can understand the concerns people have about games in the middle of December against Stevenage on a Tuesday evening but I look at it another way. The clubs would be forced to think about their offering and up their game in order to attract fans. Again, this is something that has been talked about recently and has seemingly failed to get off the ground.

I appreciate that I am incredibly biased on this subject, being exiled as I am but I know it wouldn't affect my decision to attend the games that I can go to. If anything, it would allow the club to make more money out of my support than they have done for the last 15 years.
I think at elite level, Premier League, the attendance wouldnít be affected but at L2 it would, for a start itís £10 cheaper, you can watch from the comfort of your own home and whatís even worse for the club is you can invite your mates around all this with no parking cost etc.
Why donít you lobby the EFL, they will give you the hypothesis and data behind the decision not to do it.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: everbrite on August 15, 2021, 10:42:44 am
So taking some of the threads from the Colchester game and folks complaining they couldnít stream the game - my understanding was if you had an UK IP address you could watch away games but not home games - non uk residents or an overseas billing address and IP (so a vpn is not sufficient) can stream both home and away - it seems now UK residents can see no Saturday 15.00 KO game so why the **** would anyone subscribe to iFollow? - is this a change of policy or have I missed something for the last 3 years?

I can remember a few on here who claimed they used the VPN route which they claimed worked for them!


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: guest1269 on August 15, 2021, 13:44:06 pm

Sorry to appear ignorant but if you are a legitimate overseas subscriber why do you use a vpn?

Not ignorant at all - I donít normally need it for iFollow (unless Iím actually in the UK) but do need it for Sky etc


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Larry on August 15, 2021, 14:09:55 pm

The biggest example is how it works in America for the NFL. Clubs (or franchises if you prefer) stream their own matches for a fee whilst also selling out their ridiculously large stadiums. Plus, their ticket prices are at least 3 times as much as we pay at Sixfields.
 

They stream the NFL games because they sell out the stadiums. With only nine homes games per season for teams that dont make the play-offs and a far bigger catchment area it's not a good example.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Coolcat on August 15, 2021, 17:12:09 pm
They stream the NFL games because they sell out the stadiums. With only nine homes games per season for teams that dont make the play-offs and a far bigger catchment area it's not a good example.
Got to agree. Not comparable at all. Take for example the Kansas City Chiefs (NFL) my family's erm, local club. Their fan base stretches from basically, western Illinois through Missouri and Kansas states, probably coming to an abrupt halt short of Colorado, where their derby neighbours, Denver Broncos pick up the batten. That is a vast vast area!
As Larry has stated, with a minimal nine to twelve home games or whatever, the Chiefs could sell Arrowhead out several times over, and still command a vast following in the midwest bars.

The Cobblers couldn't come close, and given the crying going on even on this thread about not being able to access I-Follow, shows a willingness to take the armchair stance - even at the expense of a half full Sixfields or travelling eighty miles or so!


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: DrillingCobbler on August 15, 2021, 17:22:13 pm
I think at our level people would continue to go to the games, in the main. (if all games were streamed). The majority of away games are only attended by the real enthusiasts, and I doubt very much many of them would stream the game  and sit on their arse at home watching it.

Im with the pod man. Id have paid 20quid yesterday (for example) because I didn't go (cant stand Colchester's away day experience having been to that ground twice before).

Tuesday night games have been available for a few seasons anyway, so the argument about Tuesday night games in December is irrelevant.

I think the lower leagues are missing out on an easy revenue stream; providing the cost to stream it is very similar to paying for a match ticket. I reckon those 'who cant be assed' to go very often anyway, for whatever reason, would end up spending far more money on 'supporting the team' they follow.



Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: CJ on August 15, 2021, 18:03:09 pm
Got to agree. Not comparable at all. Take for example the Kansas City Chiefs (NFL) my family's erm, local club. Their fan base stretches from basically, western Illinois through Missouri and Kansas states, probably coming to an abrupt halt short of Colorado, where their derby neighbours, Denver Broncos pick up the batten. That is a vast vast area!
As Larry has stated, with a minimal nine to twelve home games or whatever, the Chiefs could sell Arrowhead out several times over, and still command a vast following in the midwest bars.

The Cobblers couldn't come close, and given the crying going on even on this thread about not being able to access I-Follow, shows a willingness to take the armchair stance - even at the expense of a half full Sixfields or travelling eighty miles or so!
I just put a search in for the St Louis Cardinals thinking they would take some of that support away from the Chiefs only to find they upped and moved to Arizina 1500 miles away in the mid eighties lol.
Puts Wimbledons move to Milton Keynes into perspective, how does that work?
I'm sure there's countless other 3xamples of that in major league US football. Obviously a sport made primarily for TV audiences as premiership football is now. Not comparable at all with league two football.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Coolcat on August 15, 2021, 18:19:03 pm
I just put a search in for the St Louis Cardinals thinking they would take some of that support away from the Chiefs only to find they upped and moved to Arizina 1500 miles away in the mid eighties lol.
Puts Wimbledons move to Milton Keynes into perspective, how does that work?
I'm sure there's countless other 3xamples of that in major league US football. Obviously a sport made primarily for TV audiences as premiership football is now. Not comparable at all with league two football.
St Louis is my home city. Totally baseball - St Louis Cardinals are one of the iconic teams in the US. Their fanbase before local radio stations in the fifties era took off, stretched to the west coast. Even now, well into Kansas City environs.
Cards fan at Philly airport, when I was there, was "NFL, what's that?" when discussing fans, territories etc. NFL wise, Cardinals moved to Arizona, Rams moved into St Louis, but support for NFL always luke warm. They returned to LA a few years ago.
Busch Stadium is right in the city centre of St Louis, a brilliant place. Huge Cardinals Kingdom bars outside - one where you can buy seats that overlook the stadium for a full view! Now that beats I-Follow!  ;D


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Horsham Cobbler on August 15, 2021, 18:31:24 pm
You do need to be a bit careful on the armchair stance comment and fans crying about lack of access - obviously every circumstance is different and I can only comment on my case where I subscribe predominantly for away games but pre Covid attended virtually all home Saturday games which is a round trip of 1400 not 80 miles.

Where do you live Cobblerwatch?


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Fred_NTFC on August 15, 2021, 18:52:00 pm
I live in Edinburgh, I do think it's fairly insane that I live in a different country but can't watch the game or provide extra income to the club. As other people have pointed out if you were worried about attendances (I think the impact would be minimal) then the technology exists to have a localised blackout.

Let's remember that midweek matches are already available to stream & I think these are the ones that people would be less likely to attend in person. At our level a weekend game is much more about the experience I believe & if club's are having to work harder to make that more worthwhile then that's no bad thing.

Absolutely zero chance I would pay to watch streams at £20 a match though, but say a £400 season ticket? Maybe.  Would you really spend that amount of money if you were a casual fan? I really doubt it.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Shoemender on August 15, 2021, 19:00:09 pm
St Louis is my home city. Totally baseball - St Louis Cardinals are one of the iconic teams in the US. Their fanbase before local radio stations in the fifties era took off, stretched to the west coast. Even now, well into Kansas City environs.
Cards fan at Philly airport, when I was there, was "NFL, what's that?" when discussing fans, territories etc. NFL wise, Cardinals moved to Arizona, Rams moved into St Louis, but support for NFL always luke warm. They returned to LA a few years ago.
Busch Stadium is right in the city centre of St Louis, a brilliant place. Huge Cardinals Kingdom bars outside - one where you can buy seats that overlook the stadium for a full view! Now that beats I-Follow!  ;D

Not really, it's only rounders, it ain't football.🤠


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Horsham Cobbler on August 15, 2021, 19:10:41 pm
Not really, it's only rounders, it ain't football.🤠

I once got taken out on a corporate evening to watch San Diego Padres play San Francisco Giants.

I truly lost the will to live ... the game went on for over 5 hours and there can only have been 1 or 2 occasions where the ball was well and truly leathered and the batter ran all the way around.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: CJ on August 15, 2021, 19:33:56 pm
St Louis is my home city. Totally baseball - St Louis Cardinals are one of the iconic teams in the US. Their fanbase before local radio stations in the fifties era took off, stretched to the west coast. Even now, well into Kansas City environs.
Cards fan at Philly airport, when I was there, was "NFL, what's that?" when discussing fans, territories etc. NFL wise, Cardinals moved to Arizona, Rams moved into St Louis, but support for NFL always luke warm. They returned to LA a few years ago.
Busch Stadium is right in the city centre of St Louis, a brilliant place. Huge Cardinals Kingdom bars outside - one where you can buy seats that overlook the stadium for a full view! Now that beats I-Follow!  ;D
I don't know a lot about US football (obviously) but I know absolutely nothing about baseball I'm afraid. Are both sports played at the same time of year and which is the more popular in terms of audience and participation?


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: singcobb on August 15, 2021, 20:30:47 pm
Being only able to get to a few games a year(which is good because I'm a bit of a Jonah). I use a VPN to watch IFollow and pretty much everything I do online, don't tend to have too many problems apart from my own s***ty ISP.
Baseball is a great game, especially if you like test match cricket. Murican football is rugby for woozies. Hockey is boxing on ice.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Coolcat on August 15, 2021, 20:34:06 pm
I don't know a lot about US football (obviously) but I know absolutely nothing about baseball I'm afraid. Are both sports played at the same time of year and which is the more popular in terms of audience and participation?
Baseball, summer. NFL winter. Baseball play around 162 games in the regular season - so, understandably, especially during the early part of the season it's common to have stadiums half full - unless, a derby such as Cardinals against Chicago Cubs - which I went to two of the three in the three game series. The second incidentally, starting at 6.30pm (same days as Spurs v Liverpool Champions League Final) but impending tornadoes and storms heading for the city, game suspended at 8pm. Said deluge arrived, from my hotel window (everyone rightly left) could see lights and part of the stadium on...resumed apparently at 11pm - finishing at 1am!!!

In contrast, as said, NFL play very limited games - so usually they more or less fill their stadiums. St Louis is massively baseball - kinda like sleepy Gloucester is far more rugby union than footie...in contrast to the majority of England.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: everbrite on August 15, 2021, 23:19:28 pm
Cyber security.

Up to no good more likely 8) - tax man dodger?
 ;D


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: GrangeParkCobbler on August 15, 2021, 23:32:49 pm
I went to watch a baseball game in Tampa (or St Petersburg really) a couple of years ago....and i'm hooked! I've subscribed to MLB.TV for the last two seasons (Covid disrupted 60 game season last year, full 162 game season this year) and watch The Rays most nights.
$129 for the season, thats about £95 so if they make it to the post season its about 50p a game!!


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Steve Massive Massey on August 16, 2021, 07:36:15 am
I can watch quite easily as I'm abroad (the quality is always excellent too) but to watch BBC iplayer or other similar platforms you need a VPN, its quite simple even for tech dumbos as myself.

I used Express VPN to access UK only TV, as mentioned you must pay for a premium service, a free VPN is too basic. Use a decent paid VPN and you'll be able to watch.

I hear there are other more "shady" options freely available online. TV boxes that will give you everything including baseball for one fixed payment. A "friend of mine" has one and apparently he can watch every Sky channel, BT sport, every team on ifollow, pay per view, Netflix, Amazon Prime, even LV County Championship cricket for just £60 a year, but I know absolutely nothing about it so cant help.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: everbrite on August 16, 2021, 10:20:15 am
Has always been that way (i.e. no 3pm Saturday games streamable within the UK).  Only exception was last season due to COVID.

It has to be said it's an incredibly painless workaround to stream via VPN if you do wish to watch inside the UK though.  Payment via Paypal is now accepted so there's no credit card validation which is reliant on a non-UK billing address.


Absolutely!


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Wanderingteyn on August 16, 2021, 22:02:32 pm
Download "vpn free" (key symbol) on your mobile device, load it up and select a server from a country that has very little traffic and away you go. You'll be able to purchase and view the games.

I agree with the overall ridiculousness that games can't be streamed. I also don't agree with the 3pm thing English football seems obsessed with.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on August 16, 2021, 22:20:53 pm
I can watch quite easily as I'm abroad (the quality is always excellent too) but to watch BBC iplayer or other similar platforms you need a VPN, its quite simple even for tech dumbos as myself.

I used Express VPN to access UK only TV, as mentioned you must pay for a premium service, a free VPN is too basic. Use a decent paid VPN and you'll be able to watch.

I hear there are other more "shady" options freely available online. TV boxes that will give you everything including baseball for one fixed payment. A "friend of mine" has one and apparently he can watch every Sky channel, BT sport, every team on ifollow, pay per view, Netflix, Amazon Prime, even LV County Championship cricket for just £60 a year, but I know absolutely nothing about it so cant help.
My brother in law who also lives in Oz keeps going on about this ďboxĒ. Reckons itís amazing. I havenít seen it myself as he is in WA which is harder to get into than Fort Knox at the minute. I am still on a paid VPN but am thinking about it. On a separate note ITV is a right pain on your phone, Mrs Melly (ex Cape Canaveral) keeps having to switch my Apple region to the UK to update the app and then switch back to Oz when complete. Itís beyond me how she does it so donít ask, but itís a right faff. Seems technology is making all this more difficult all the time?


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Wanderingteyn on August 16, 2021, 23:48:13 pm
I went to watch a baseball game in Tampa (or St Petersburg really) a couple of years ago....and i'm hooked! I've subscribed to MLB.TV for the last two seasons (Covid disrupted 60 game season last year, full 162 game season this year) and watch The Rays most nights.
$129 for the season, thats about £95 so if they make it to the post season its about 50p a game!!

Similar to the NFL game pass which is £147 for all games. Orrrrr you can just keep signing up for the free trial and pay nothing.

I personally think America does it very well with their sports coverage but I also accept the argument about catchment areas and multi billion dollar industries as opposed to L2!

Baseball is incredible, their version of cricket really isn't it. They always sing Sweet Caroline in the 8th innings at the Red Sox, so that's one tradition that's made it's way to football.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: singcobb on August 16, 2021, 23:53:13 pm
I use Nord VPN to watch the cobbs, cricket, baseball and hide my identity for financial and company critical transactions. Believe me big brother is watching you and can trace you and what you do if you don't protect yourselves.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Steve Massive Massey on August 17, 2021, 04:17:17 am
My brother in law who also lives in Oz keeps going on about this ďboxĒ. Reckons itís amazing. I havenít seen it myself as he is in WA which is harder to get into than Fort Knox at the minute. I am still on a paid VPN but am thinking about it. On a separate note ITV is a right pain on your phone, Mrs Melly (ex Cape Canaveral) keeps having to switch my Apple region to the UK to update the app and then switch back to Oz when complete. Itís beyond me how she does it so donít ask, but itís a right faff. Seems technology is making all this more difficult all the time?

I don't subscribe to these boxes in any way but I've heard they are brilliant.  ;D  Not as if its hidden in anyway and I've even found a tuber to describe one in your local dialect, I would imagine they are easy enough to get in Oz and the UK through any online click me retailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUH47Kdi9KE&t=130s


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: SadOldGit on August 17, 2021, 07:38:38 am
Is it not illegal to access all of these services without paying and disguising your location for ifollow etc?


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Manwork04 on August 17, 2021, 12:48:30 pm
Is it not illegal to access all of these services without paying and disguising your location for ifollow etc?
Very illegal.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: singcobb on August 17, 2021, 13:02:57 pm
Is it not illegal to access all of these services without paying and disguising your location for ifollow etc?

It's a very grey area. Masking your location with a VPN to access a service that you have paid for is probably not illegal as the provider in theory is responsible for ensuring that the content is only available in the regions permitted and as they have done this there is no offence.

Owning a SuperBox or a similar device in many countries is illegal as is the importation of them. Normally they are only available from places like China and if you buy one there is every chance it will get siezed by customs. To get access to all of the channels you need to buy a subscription that will decode blocked content, these subscriptions seem to be mainly based in Eastern Europe. In theory if you buy a subscription you are purchasing an illegal service and could well end up in court for it if you get caught.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: guest1269 on August 17, 2021, 13:28:08 pm
I use Nord VPN to watch the cobbs, cricket, baseball and hide my identity for financial and company critical transactions. Believe me big brother is watching you and can trace you and what you do if you don't protect yourselves.

Absolutely - it brings a first line of defence (and enables you to watch sport) but one shouldn't think its 100% secure (and rightly so) for overt illegal actions.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Melbourne Cobbler on August 18, 2021, 00:18:59 am
There you go, thatís the end of that then.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/2992997/are-kodi-boxes-illegal/

Besides itís in The Sun so it must be true.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Steve Massive Massey on August 18, 2021, 02:48:08 am
It's also illegal to beat or shake any carpet, rug or mat before eight in the morning.

So is cherry knocking, ďto wilfully and wantonly disturb any inhabitant by pulling or ringing any doorbell or knocking at any door without lawful excuseĒ,

Being drunk in a pub, or impersonating a soldier at a party, all illegal. I wonder if Harry knew?

I'll be watching all the football..on my friends box.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: Keith on August 20, 2021, 20:38:41 pm

 impersonating a soldier at a party,

Deepy you must take offence because i do, its the Queens uniform,
ps Harry was a liability on tour, as you needed a whole battalion to make sure a hair wasn't rustled on his head.


Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: everbrite on August 20, 2021, 21:00:28 pm
Deepy you must take offence because i do, its the Queens uniform,
ps Harry was a liability on tour, as you needed a whole battalion to make sure a hair wasn't rustled on his head.

very worried Keefy on your state of mind!



Title: Re: iFollow
Post by: CJ on August 21, 2021, 09:09:56 am
Deepy you must take offence because i do, its the Queens uniform,
ps Harry was a liability on tour, as you needed a whole battalion to make sure a hair wasn't rustled on his head.
So if they had waited a few years until his bald spot got to cover most of his bonce as it does now that would not have been the case?