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Dismantling the squad

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crazycobbler
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2020, 20:08:16 pm »

That prediction was made before we had Callum Morton, Curle got incredibly lucky last season but I’m not complaining.

The same Callum Morton signing that you heavily criticised when he arrived? The same Callum Morton that was instrumental to us winning promotion (something which you also said would never happen under Curle)  Roll Eyes I should think people have learnt to take your opinions with a pinch of salt.
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TownOwl
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2020, 21:59:56 pm »

I'd rather be in a position where we have (had?) a fairly balanced squad and a good team ethic got us up - and loose a few players, than being a team where 1 striker got us up... and then left.
Yes, I'm referring to Swindon. Be interesting to see how we fair compared to them.

Of the players leaving so far, Curle has basically orchestrated the lot, possibly with the exception of Oliver, depending how competitive the offer was. We must now hope he made the right call and they are able to attract better replacements. That's what he (and we) will live or die by.
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Roll Eyes           Roll Eyes           Roll Eyes
Manwork04
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2020, 22:31:41 pm »

The same Callum Morton signing that you heavily criticised when he arrived? The same Callum Morton that was instrumental to us winning promotion (something which you also said would never happen under Curle)  Roll Eyes I should think people have learnt to take your opinions with a pinch of salt.
Your crazy pal.
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« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2020, 08:06:44 am »

Your crazy pal.

How did you make a million when you are illiterate?
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Irchy cob
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« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2020, 08:23:20 am »

How did you make a million when you are illiterate?

I thought it was multiple millions, and I make crazycobbler right.
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Manwork04
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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2020, 09:19:40 am »

I thought it was multiple millions, and I make crazycobbler right.
It is  Kiss
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« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2020, 09:21:25 am »

How did you make a million when you are illiterate?
Your obsession with me is not healthy  Grin
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lordjord
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« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2020, 09:42:06 am »

To me the biggest issue was losing Wilder in the title winning side. It meant a new boss came in with his own ideas, wanted his own players etc. The players that are still here know what Curle wants and expects, so thats already a leg up on our previous promotion. Players were frozen out almost immediately by Page as confirmed by Byrom and Cresswell. So that would have caused issues immediately.

Also the loanees we had come in that season went on to become highly valued commodities in the likes of Marquis and Collins, one of which we had to sign again. If we can get Morton back on loan then thats another huge plus, hopefully Wharton also. I dont think anyone can compare Oliver to either Collins or Marquis in terms of ability though.

I dont consider this the same as the previous promotion dismantling. The new signings are going to suit the way we have played in the last 18 months, Curle isnt going to change his stripes now. The investment we made in old players ala Matt Taylor, Revell and Zakuani who we relied on heavily was a mistake. I cannot see us making the same mistakes and as such remain confident.
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Manwork04
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« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2020, 11:06:50 am »

To me the biggest issue was losing Wilder in the title winning side. It meant a new boss came in with his own ideas, wanted his own players etc. The players that are still here know what Curle wants and expects, so thats already a leg up on our previous promotion. Players were frozen out almost immediately by Page as confirmed by Byrom and Cresswell. So that would have caused issues immediately.

Also the loanees we had come in that season went on to become highly valued commodities in the likes of Marquis and Collins, one of which we had to sign again. If we can get Morton back on loan then thats another huge plus, hopefully Wharton also. I dont think anyone can compare Oliver to either Collins or Marquis in terms of ability though.

I dont consider this the same as the previous promotion dismantling. The new signings are going to suit the way we have played in the last 18 months, Curle isnt going to change his stripes now. The investment we made in old players ala Matt Taylor, Revell and Zakuani who we relied on heavily was a mistake. I cannot see us making the same mistakes and as such remain confident.
I agree with the fact that KC is still with us and this should give us continuity in terms of style and ethics BUT we have probably lost the whole defensive unit, Turnbull, Wharton and Goode as well as there is no guarantee we will get ginger Pele back and Oliver has gone.
I would rather we recruit less bodies with better quality’s than 10 L2 journeyman.
Interesting.....
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bungle
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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2020, 14:25:05 pm »

People who argue that we can sign better players than Oliver and Turnbull are missing the point.

Losing key players from the spine of the team inevitably leads to a loss of continuity and tactical cohesion. Any new centre forward will take time to build an understanding with Nicky Adams, for instance, and any new centre back will take time to learn Curle's zonal marking system. The team who triumphed at Wembley were more than the sum of their parts but now that collective strength has been diminished.

I don't doubt for a moment that we can, and hopefully will, sign replacements who are technically better footballers than Oliver and Turnbull. However, that has to be set against the loss of continuity and momentum.

Our slow start this season was largely attributable to a high turnover of players. (A quick glance at the lineup against Walsall shows 8 debutants!)

Of course, we got there in the end and Curle's approach paid dividends. However, we start next season in a very challenging division and in my opinion this level of 'squad churn' is an unnecessary risk.

Having said that, if he somehow manages to bring back Morton and/or Wharton then things will look a lot better. Also, Curle has already managed to defy conventional wisdom and my own dire predictions by overturning a 2-0 home play-off deficit. He has proved many people wrong in quite spectacular fashion and hopefully he will do so again. 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 14:40:33 pm by bungle » Report Spam   Logged
JollyCobbler
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« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2020, 15:09:53 pm »

People who argue that we can sign better players than Oliver and Turnbull are missing the point.

Losing key players from the spine of the team inevitably leads to a loss of continuity and tactical cohesion. Any new centre forward will take time to build an understanding with Nicky Adams, for instance, and any new centre back will take time to learn Curle's zonal marking system. The team who triumphed at Wembley were more than the sum of their parts but now that collective strength has been diminished.

I don't doubt for a moment that we can, and hopefully will, sign replacements who are technically better footballers than Oliver and Turnbull. However, that has to be set against the loss of continuity and momentum.

Our slow start this season was largely attributable to a high turnover of players. (A quick glance at the lineup against Walsall shows 8 debutants!)

Of course, we got there in the end and Curle's approach paid dividends. However, we start next season in a very challenging division and in my opinion this level of 'squad churn' is an unnecessary risk.

Having said that, if he somehow manages to bring back Morton and/or Wharton then things will look a lot better. Also, Curle has already managed to defy conventional wisdom and my own dire predictions by overturning a 2-0 home play-off deficit. He has proved many people wrong in quite spectacular fashion and hopefully he will do so again. 

Spot on.
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« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2020, 04:29:39 am »

I think if it was a normal season last season we wouldn't have made the playoffs.
Covid 19 helped us bigtime.
Maybe a new pandemic will hit next year and we'll go up again by fluke.
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For goodness sake Doc we are NOT going down  Grin   you heard it here 1st  Wink

(I damn well hope that does not come back to haunt me)
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« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2020, 09:17:25 am »

This isn’t the same situation because players leaving this time around is out of our control when previously it was the manager’s choice not to resign some individuals .
I also think it’s a blessing in some respects because the squad needed upgrading and possibly over achieved last season to win promotion.
We really we’re below par for much of the season .
Losing the three centre halves is undoubtably a blow , as is the potential loss of Morton .
The one thing about Curle though is that not many question the team selection he puts out and his recruitment has been fairly good . You cannot say that about many previous managers who constantly played the wrong starting eleven in the wrong positions .
I have faith in who he will bring in and hopefully who he ships out - Lines , Martin and Smith with any luck .
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« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2020, 10:58:05 am »

I think if it was a normal season last season we wouldn't have made the playoffs. I Don't Wink
Covid 19 helped us bigtime. Robbed us of automatic promotion  Smiley
Maybe a new pandemic will hit next year and we'll go up again by fluke. If the Gods are with us  Grin

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EB Claret
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« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2020, 11:16:17 am »

Chris Wilder's team dismantled mainly because the man himself left. If CW had stayed would Holmes have stayed too? we'll never know. Either Collins or Marquis or both would have signed. Rose may have stayed and McDonald may have developed further.
Page at times seemed determined to prove he could do things his way with his players and ignored the likes of Byrom and McDonald and preferred Revell to Richards (still the best finisher at the club by miles). Also when things got tough he had no clever coach like Alan Knill in support and everything just imploded.
The difference now is that Curle has the experience and a back up team he trusts. The club have actively tried to keep Wharton and Morton and we can have more belief that alternatives can be found, if necessary under this regime.
Let's hope for the best.
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« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2020, 12:51:08 pm »

Interesting reading this thread, for me unlike Wilders squad which had some great players, I thought last seasons squad was bang average apart from the loanees and a couple of our own such as Goode. I see it us having the necessary clear out before the squad was found out.

It was a struggle most of the season and I am not convinced that we would have gone up but for the break and the loanees.

I think the club have a great idea of what is needed in terms of playing staff and without the loanees from last season we would be going straight back down.

Onwards and upwards, good recruitment so far imo.

Oliver played the last few games for the shop window, normally a lazy non goal scoring player, doubt he'll get much into double figures next season if that.

Lot of dross still to go.

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« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2020, 13:19:05 pm »

Interesting reading this thread, for me unlike Wilders squad which had some great players, I thought last seasons squad was bang average apart from the loanees and a couple of our own such as Goode. I see it us having the necessary clear out before the squad was found out.

It was a struggle most of the season and I am not convinced that we would have gone up but for the break and the loanees.

I think the club have a great idea of what is needed in terms of playing staff and without the loanees from last season we would be going straight back down.

Onwards and upwards, good recruitment so far imo.

Oliver played the last few games for the shop window, normally a lazy non goal scoring player, doubt he'll get much into double figures next season if that.

Lot of dross still to go.



I agree with some of that but I don't think the whole season was a struggle. We were very hot and cold, it was consistency that was lacking, against Plymouth and Burton we were great, then against Sc***horpe and Crawley we were dreadful.
As for Oliver, call him whatever but certainly not lazy!
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« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2020, 15:13:55 pm »

Serious question, do you honestly think we would have finished in the play off positions if the season had played out minus Covid-19?

Yes. Port Vale were the only real threat to finishing in a play-off spot but I fancied us to finish above Colchester in any case.
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« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2020, 16:12:10 pm »

This isn’t the same situation because players leaving this time around is out of our control when previously it was the manager’s choice not to resign some individuals .

Disagree. I'm sure Curle could have kept Turnbull and Oliver if he really wanted to. Ultimately, he felt that it didn't represent 'value for money' to push the boat out to keep them so in effect it was a deliberate choice.

As I've said, it's too early to assess whether he made the correct call. IMO the loss of Turnbull is more of a gamble because of the sacrifice in defensive continuity which will be exacerbated if Goode leaves.

Starting the season with two new strikers is less of a gamble, but it will still take time for them to forge an understanding and we will have to be patient.

I suspect that like last season we will start slowly and take a while to 'gel' due to the high turnover of players. On the other hand, most players won't have kicked a ball competitively for six months so it might be a case of slow starts all round.   
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« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2020, 16:15:18 pm »

Yes. Port Vale were the only real threat to finishing in a play-off spot but I fancied us to finish above Colchester in any case.
I think Bradford were also in the mix, but taking into account our form at the time and our tough run in we would have struggled.
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Rule Britannia
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