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Deepcut Cobbler
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« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2021, 17:37:36 pm »

Exactly. Both seem to be enjoying their football under Brady. And at the end of the day money talks - if we offer them 30-40% increases on what they currently earn, I can't see them turning it down.

Smaller, high quality squads are the answer. Depth can come from the youth team and loans!

Does that work on Football Manager?  30-40% increase to play in a lower division?
If they get an offer from a League One or higher club, you won't see them for dust.
Only McWilliams has the home town loyalty but I would guess that he'd prefer to be playing higher, if the opportunity rises, rather than going back to the bottom rung, irrespective of the money offered.  He is good enough to not be playing in the basement again.
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« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2021, 17:52:55 pm »

Does that work on Football Manager?  30-40% increase to play in a lower division?
If they get an offer from a League One or higher club, you won't see them for dust.
Only McWilliams has the home town loyalty but I would guess that he'd prefer to be playing higher, if the opportunity rises, rather than going back to the bottom rung, irrespective of the money offered.  He is good enough to not be playing in the basement again.

Having worked with agents operating in the sporting arena and noticing how they approach these things I would imagine he/she would be encouraging a certain course of action in their mutual interest.
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« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2021, 18:13:31 pm »

not sure any player this year has earned themselves a pay increase at all - let alone one as ridiculous as suggested here.

madness.



Since the start of January only 3 sides in League One have conceded less goals than Northampton have. Lloyd Jones and Horsfall have played virtually every one of those games. Both have impressed, but Jones has been particularly impressive. It's naïve to think that top end League One clubs won't be interested. Why is it ridiculous to try to keep hold of your best players, and why is it ridiculous to suggest that the player who has probably been our player of the season deserves a pay increase? I think you are being clouded by emotions about our probable relegation.
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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2021, 18:21:16 pm »

Does that work on Football Manager?  30-40% increase to play in a lower division?
If they get an offer from a League One or higher club, you won't see them for dust.
Only McWilliams has the home town loyalty but I would guess that he'd prefer to be playing higher, if the opportunity rises, rather than going back to the bottom rung, irrespective of the money offered.  He is good enough to not be playing in the basement again.

It's an arbitrary figure for the sake of my point - RE the football manager video game I wouldn't know, you'll have to let me know!

Of course L. Jones, McWilliams and Watson are likely to receive attention from League One and absolutely they are good enough to stay in the division. My point is we should try to tie them down before it gets to the stage (1 month remaining of contract) where they can discuss contract terms elsewhere. If a sizeable pay increase for our 3 best players keeps them here but means we can't afford 1 or 2 new high-earners, wouldn't you say that is still a favourable outcome?
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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2021, 18:43:42 pm »

It's an arbitrary figure for the sake of my point - RE the football manager video game I wouldn't know, you'll have to let me know!

Of course L. Jones, McWilliams and Watson are likely to receive attention from League One and absolutely they are good enough to stay in the division. My point is we should try to tie them down before it gets to the stage (1 month remaining of contract) where they can discuss contract terms elsewhere. If a sizeable pay increase for our 3 best players keeps them here but means we can't afford 1 or 2 new high-earners, wouldn't you say that is still a favourable outcome?

Agreed and I've never 'played it' either Wink
Agree with your proposal but there are so many variables and choices that would/could take it completely from the clubs hands. We can offer whatever we want, but we cannot guarantee to be successful.
The Oliver transfer last season is a case in point, where he was indicating that he was intending to stay until a club assessed to be a better option in League One (rightly) offered him their opportunity up against the transfer deadline.  The blame for that still being attached to KT/KC was unfair and unwarranted. I'm led to believe, that they offered him a salary and contract commensurate with only scoring four goals in thirty appearances all season!  The fact that he has gone on to score many at his new club wasn't a prediction we would have made.
As I said before, in situations like that, the power remains with the player.
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2021, 19:05:44 pm »

Agreed and I've never 'played it' either Wink
Agree with your proposal but there are so many variables and choices that would/could take it completely from the clubs hands. We can offer whatever we want, but we cannot guarantee to be successful.
The Oliver transfer last season is a case in point, where he was indicating that he was intending to stay until a club assessed to be a better option in League One (rightly) offered him their opportunity up against the transfer deadline.  The blame for that still being attached to KT/KC was unfair and unwarranted. I'm led to believe, that they offered him a salary and contract commensurate with only scoring four goals in thirty appearances all season!  The fact that he has gone on to score many at his new club wasn't a prediction we would have made.
As I said before, in situations like that, the power remains with the player.

I'd argue that if the the salary was commensurate as you say to the 4 goals scored then KC certainly misjudged how important Oliver was to the way his side played. Effective target men forwards become rarer and rarer and most fans would have told him that Harry Smith had very little chance of replicating Oliver's role!

I think that when offering new deals, other than the player's importance to the team, it's important to consider the player's ceiling. I think McWilliams and L Jones are both well capable of playing in the Championship in the not too distant future, with Jones the closer of the two to that standard. I think it's a big mistake if the club doesn't offer them, and Watson, considerably improved terms to entice them to commit to a longer term deal - at least 2 years, but 3 if possible. Then when interest comes in we are in a position to profit a la Charlie Goode. Effectively what I'm trying to say is we take away the power from the player by offering them contracts they can't reasonably refuse before their heads can be turned!  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2021, 20:10:06 pm »

If the 3 said players were offered substantial increases to stay and play in division 2 how many would stay if offered similar terms from a division 1 club?. I don't see Watson going for a large future transfer fee as he is now 27.
Should we get relegated I doubt that next seasons budget will be higher than this seasons and rightly we would be offering new signings division 2 levels of pay. I doubt that any increases to keep existing players are likely to be substantial and if they were it would limit the managers remaining budget for new signings. Then certain posters would be complaining about those incoming.
Posters have also recently said we should be offering Alex Jones terms for next season but since his miss at Gillingham it has not been mentioned. He should also have been in every starting 11 for the past several games but some who have put forward which strikers should start against Blackpool do not pick him. How fickle we are and what a difference 1 miss can make.
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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2021, 20:17:53 pm »

Slight deviation, but apt for the subject line. One young lad could be moving on and it's not Chuk.

https://www.sunderlandecho.com/sport/football/sunderland-afc/sunderland-linked-with-first-team-star-of-the-future-as-league-one-rivals-could-suffer-major-transfer-blow-3215062
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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2021, 22:47:54 pm »

If the 3 said players were offered substantial increases to stay and play in division 2 how many would stay if offered similar terms from a division 1 club?. I don't see Watson going for a large future transfer fee as he is now 27.
Should we get relegated I doubt that next seasons budget will be higher than this seasons and rightly we would be offering new signings division 2 levels of pay. I doubt that any increases to keep existing players are likely to be substantial and if they were it would limit the managers remaining budget for new signings. Then certain posters would be complaining about those incoming.
Posters have also recently said we should be offering Alex Jones terms for next season but since his miss at Gillingham it has not been mentioned. He should also have been in every starting 11 for the past several games but some who have put forward which strikers should start against Blackpool do not pick him. How fickle we are and what a difference 1 miss can make.


RE your first point, I think I’ve said it 3 times already that the point of offering terms now is to avoid being gazumped by League One sides, who can only offer terms starting one month before the player’s current contract expires. The pragmatic thing to do is to offer new terms now and set a deadline before that point! I also didn’t mention Watson going for a fee (but why not if he has another strong season?), but why should that matter if he has a successful few years with us?

From your second paragraph I assume that your preference is for a vastly different squad? Or playing devil’s advocate for the sake of it?
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« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2021, 08:33:00 am »

I'd argue that if the the salary was commensurate as you say to the 4 goals scored then KC certainly misjudged how important Oliver was to the way his side played. Effective target men forwards become rarer and rarer and most fans would have told him that Harry Smith had very little chance of replicating Oliver's role!

I think that when offering new deals, other than the player's importance to the team, it's important to consider the player's ceiling. I think McWilliams and L Jones are both well capable of playing in the Championship in the not too distant future, with Jones the closer of the two to that standard. I think it's a big mistake if the club doesn't offer them, and Watson, considerably improved terms to entice them to commit to a longer term deal - at least 2 years, but 3 if possible. Then when interest comes in we are in a position to profit a la Charlie Goode. Effectively what I'm trying to say is we take away the power from the player by offering them contracts they can't reasonably refuse before their heads can be turned!  Grin

This is one of the main things we as a club need to get much better at, identifying the players who can play at a higher level and getting them under a long term contract, so if and when they do leave we can demand a decent fee for them.
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2021, 13:13:44 pm »

I *suspect* Jones is being paid peanuts. Without a club entirely, then trained with us, then signed...so anything we offer will have to be a substantial increase on whatever he's on at the minute.

Mcwilliams, well to keep him motivated, probably warrants a 2 or 3 year deal on considerably more cash than he's on at the minute.

Jones (striker), again will be on peanuts (most likely), worth a punt in my mind. Reckon he could do well next season. I one year contract shouldn't cost the club too much, he's not set the world alight but he's coming back from a long term injury, has been without a club, and you've got to go back a few years since he last went on a goal scoring run (at Port Vale). He's got it in him, case of whether or not we and he gets lucky!

As for Oliver. I really wanted him to stay but saw him as a 'back up' striker. Little did I know we'd not sign an 'upgrade' as such, so Smith got promoted in his place. I doubt a single one of us foresaw Oliver's form this season, which has been truly exceptional. Given his age, career record etc. Just goes to show. When we signed him, Morecambe fans all said he was useless, we had little hope that he would play such a pivotal part in our promotion. Got to give big fat Steve a lot of credit for seeing what none of us lot saw, including obviously our own clubs management team at the time.

Be great to see the bulk of our first choice team (not the back ups to it) stay here next season, but a lot will come down to budget etc. Id risk going with Jones and the Horse as our only two dedicated centrebacks (Harriman as back up) and get Max Dyche involved. There's two savings....Bolger and Sheehan...for starters.

Midfield - Watson, McWilliams, Sowerby. Id sign Bryn Morris as well. Good to go.

Forwards - Hoskins, Jones, Smith, Rose, Chuck. Enough there to get plenty of goals in league2, especially if Chuck and Jones come good. BAS - Loan out for 3 months.

Bring in a right back (no chance of keeping Kioso), and two decent wide players (get shot of Marshall - too old , Warburton, Roberts, Korboa, Miller too injury prone.

Id keep Mitchell but release Arnold and bring in a very good keeper. Mitchell would become back up.

Thats around 18-20 players tops. Top it up with our best youth prospects. See how it goes...
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2021, 14:28:50 pm »

I *suspect* Jones is being paid peanuts. Without a club entirely, then trained with us, then signed...so anything we offer will have to be a substantial increase on whatever he's on at the minute.

Mcwilliams, well to keep him motivated, probably warrants a 2 or 3 year deal on considerably more cash than he's on at the minute.

Jones (striker), again will be on peanuts (most likely), worth a punt in my mind. Reckon he could do well next season. I one year contract shouldn't cost the club too much, he's not set the world alight but he's coming back from a long term injury, has been without a club, and you've got to go back a few years since he last went on a goal scoring run (at Port Vale). He's got it in him, case of whether or not we and he gets lucky!

As for Oliver. I really wanted him to stay but saw him as a 'back up' striker. Little did I know we'd not sign an 'upgrade' as such, so Smith got promoted in his place. I doubt a single one of us foresaw Oliver's form this season, which has been truly exceptional. Given his age, career record etc. Just goes to show. When we signed him, Morecambe fans all said he was useless, we had little hope that he would play such a pivotal part in our promotion. Got to give big fat Steve a lot of credit for seeing what none of us lot saw, including obviously our own clubs management team at the time.

Be great to see the bulk of our first choice team (not the back ups to it) stay here next season, but a lot will come down to budget etc. Id risk going with Jones and the Horse as our only two dedicated centrebacks (Harriman as back up) and get Max Dyche involved. There's two savings....Bolger and Sheehan...for starters.

Midfield - Watson, McWilliams, Sowerby. Id sign Bryn Morris as well. Good to go.

Forwards - Hoskins, Jones, Smith, Rose, Chuck. Enough there to get plenty of goals in league2, especially if Chuck and Jones come good. BAS - Loan out for 3 months.

Bring in a right back (no chance of keeping Kioso), and two decent wide players (get shot of Marshall - too old , Warburton, Roberts, Korboa, Miller too injury prone.

Id keep Mitchell but release Arnold and bring in a very good keeper. Mitchell would become back up.

Thats around 18-20 players tops. Top it up with our best youth prospects. See how it goes...
Drilling, I read through that and agreed until I came to the last but one line. Mitchell is, in my opinion, the worse regular goalkeeper we've had in my 60 years of watching the Cobblers, we've had worse but they've not been regulars, playing only odd games. The problem with him as "back up" is that he might have to play sometime !
       I've seen better than him in the UCL, he doesn't stop much, his positioning is terrible and he manages to keep on average 1 out of 4 kicks in play. The points he has cost us this year will relegate us, massive blunders against Burton and Swindon to name but two.
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2021, 14:50:57 pm »

Drilling, I read through that and agreed until I came to the last but one line. Mitchell is, in my opinion, the worse regular goalkeeper we've had in my 60 years of watching the Cobblers, we've had worse but they've not been regulars, playing only odd games. The problem with him as "back up" is that he might have to play sometime !
       I've seen better than him in the UCL, he doesn't stop much, his positioning is terrible and he manages to keep on average 1 out of 4 kicks in play. The points he has cost us this year will relegate us, massive blunders against Burton and Swindon to name but two.

Yes, but if the strikers had done what they were meant to, his blunders wouldn't have cost us quite so dearly.
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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2021, 15:12:05 pm »

Yes, but if the strikers had done what they were meant to, his blunders wouldn't have cost us quite so dearly.

Other than Alex Jones’ miss against Gills last week which absolute sitters have strikers missed? Compare that to the Mitchell clangers against Burton, Swindon and other sides?
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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2021, 15:34:55 pm »

Always hard to compare as you might be correct that they havent missed many easy opportunities, but how many times have they not been where they should, or ran the wrong channel, or had a heavy touch etc.
With a keeper if you get it wrong you tend to get punished.
I do think that Mitchell is at best a back up but think in L2 he would provide sufficient cover for a new 1st choice.
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« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2021, 15:44:03 pm »

Always hard to compare as you might be correct that they havent missed many easy opportunities, but how many times have they not been where they should, or ran the wrong channel, or had a heavy touch etc.
With a keeper if you get it wrong you tend to get punished.
I do think that Mitchell is at best a back up but think in L2 he would provide sufficient cover for a new 1st choice.

A fair point well made. I’m not sure Mitchell is good enough to be a football league goalkeeper and I think there are probably lots of better options even as backup - also would he accept signing as backup in L2 after being first choice in L1?

We do have an awful lot of players in this squad that don’t look capable of playing at L1 level. For me this reinforces the necessity of keeping the talented players that we do have
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« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2021, 20:26:04 pm »

Other than Alex Jones’ miss against Gills last week which absolute sitters have strikers missed? Compare that to the Mitchell clangers against Burton, Swindon and other sides?

Well, Edmonson has missed at least 2, 1 on 1s. Hoskins has chosen to shoot on numerous occasions when a pass to someone in
a much better position would have been a much better option. Watson's sitter at Portsmouth, I know he's not a striker, but still a bad miss all the same, several shots which were no more than back passes, several headers where it was easier to score, Rose completely missing the ball in front of an open goal a couple of weeks ago and several other easyish chances, numerous Harry Smith misses and BAS falling over whenever the ball goes anywhere near him. I'm sure there's more. Also, how many goals have our so called strikers scored between them? About 12 maybe and people think it's all down to the keeper!! Get a grip.
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« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2021, 20:55:19 pm »

I *suspect* Jones is being paid peanuts. Without a club entirely, then trained with us, then signed...so anything we offer will have to be a substantial increase on whatever he's on at the minute.

Mcwilliams, well to keep him motivated, probably warrants a 2 or 3 year deal on considerably more cash than he's on at the minute.

Jones (striker), again will be on peanuts (most likely), worth a punt in my mind. Reckon he could do well next season. I one year contract shouldn't cost the club too much, he's not set the world alight but he's coming back from a long term injury, has been without a club, and you've got to go back a few years since he last went on a goal scoring run (at Port Vale). He's got it in him, case of whether or not we and he gets lucky!

As for Oliver. I really wanted him to stay but saw him as a 'back up' striker. Little did I know we'd not sign an 'upgrade' as such, so Smith got promoted in his place. I doubt a single one of us foresaw Oliver's form this season, which has been truly exceptional. Given his age, career record etc. Just goes to show. When we signed him, Morecambe fans all said he was useless, we had little hope that he would play such a pivotal part in our promotion. Got to give big fat Steve a lot of credit for seeing what none of us lot saw, including obviously our own clubs management team at the time.

Be great to see the bulk of our first choice team (not the back ups to it) stay here next season, but a lot will come down to budget etc. Id risk going with Jones and the Horse as our only two dedicated centrebacks (Harriman as back up) and get Max Dyche involved. There's two savings....Bolger and Sheehan...for starters.

Midfield - Watson, McWilliams, Sowerby. Id sign Bryn Morris as well. Good to go.

Forwards - Hoskins, Jones, Smith, Rose, Chuck. Enough there to get plenty of goals in league2, especially if Chuck and Jones come good. BAS - Loan out for 3 months.

Bring in a right back (no chance of keeping Kioso), and two decent wide players (get shot of Marshall - too old , Warburton, Roberts, Korboa, Miller too injury prone.

Id keep Mitchell but release Arnold and bring in a very good keeper. Mitchell would become back up.

Thats around 18-20 players tops. Top it up with our best youth prospects. See how it goes...
Mitchell will be released by Derby and will not sign for anyone because of the wages he gets from his parent club . He certainly won’t come here because he is nowhere near good enough .
Lloyd jones and Watson will be offered improved terms elsewhere .
Hoskins , Mcwilliams and Horsfall will be the only decent players to stay .
Jones is injury prone but otherwise he is ok .
Dyche is far too slow and not the answer.
Chuck needs loads of work and i am hopeful about Pollock .
Other than that - wipe the slate clean
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« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2021, 21:58:26 pm »

Well, Edmonson has missed at least 2, 1 on 1s. Hoskins has chosen to shoot on numerous occasions when a pass to someone in
a much better position would have been a much better option. Watson's sitter at Portsmouth, I know he's not a striker, but still a bad miss all the same, several shots which were no more than back passes, several headers where it was easier to score, Rose completely missing the ball in front of an open goal a couple of weeks ago and several other easyish chances, numerous Harry Smith misses and BAS falling over whenever the ball goes anywhere near him. I'm sure there's more. Also, how many goals have our so called strikers scored between them? About 12 maybe and people think it's all down to the keeper!! Get a grip.

Fair enough for the examples given. Maintain that Mitchell has cost us far too many points (as well as the misfiring forwards you point to) and certainly shouldn’t be kept after his loan comes to an end. Not sure “get a grip” is needed either?
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« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2021, 22:34:41 pm »

Fair enough for the examples given. Maintain that Mitchell has cost us far too many points (as well as the misfiring forwards you point to) and certainly shouldn’t be kept after his loan comes to an end. Not sure “get a grip” is needed either?

I wasn't advocating keeping him, just pointing out that if we'd have scored a few more, as we should have, his errors wouln't have  been nearly quite so costly. He's also kept us in a few games too.
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