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The way forward.

Poll
Question: How would you like to see the club run?  (Voting closes: May 10, 2021, 15:30:01 pm)
As is with either KT/DB or A.N.Other at the helm? - 31 (57.4%)
Local/Fan ownership (where does the money come from?) - 10 (18.5%)
Phoenix club under fan/local ownership after the club goes **** up?? - 4 (7.4%)
Don't give a crap as long as we are playing in L1 or L2 - 9 (16.7%)
Total Voters: 54

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Author Topic: The way forward.  (Read 3708 times)
MCHammer
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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2021, 16:43:09 pm »

I think the pressure will build enough that the whole football model will change, ie there will be no more "one person in charge" scenarios.....fan participation/ownership is the way forward. Whether thats the German 50+1 model, or some hybrid model remains to be seen......

Sadly while I think a lot of people hold this view I have to say I think it's pretty naive and very unlikely to ever happen.  It's also part of the reason why I think fan ownership in any form is very limited.

Think for one moment about what would have to happen for any of this to take place.  You think any of the big clubs, prem clubs, even some championship clubs would want or allow this to happen other than in a minimal token form?  Some of these are multi million even billion pound businesses.  The only way 50+1 etc. could ever be implemented is through legislation.  Does anyone seriously believe that a conservative government cares about the common man above private business and rich owners?

Don't even get me started on the premier league, football league, Uefa, Fifa, the PFA etc. who all have vested interests mostly financial in nothing changing.

The fact that Gary "Salford City" Neville has somehow become the voice of the fans and fair competetive leagues should tell you everything you need to know about what happens next.  
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« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2021, 16:50:14 pm »

I think the pressure will build enough that the whole football model will change, ie there will be no more "one person in charge" scenarios.....fan participation/ownership is the way forward. Whether thats the German 50+1 model, or some hybrid model remains to be seen......

For me, a local consortium, with local people at the helm and lots more local participation is the way forward for clubs at our level.

I know you are a champion of fan ownership but donít necessarily agree that is the way forward at the moment. It lacks overall support and a charismatic leader like Brian Lomax and Rob Marshall! If things improve dramatically on the pitch and we prove capable of maintaining our League 1 position and/or better, the enthusiasm this incites might be more realistic for this type of initiative. At the moment the support is split and all over the place with opinions. Best to let things settle down, see who is made Manager and how we shape up for L2? I can recall two opportunities; season 64/65 in the old Div 2 in our second season in L2 with crowds over 12000 was an opportunity to progress with a New Stadium. Second in my view was June 2020 when most of us  where in unison after a miraculous promotion. Both wasted opportunities?
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« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2021, 17:58:12 pm »

Sadly while I think a lot of people hold this view I have to say I think it's pretty naive and very unlikely to ever happen.  It's also part of the reason why I think fan ownership in any form is very limited.

Think for one moment about what would have to happen for any of this to take place.  You think any of the big clubs, prem clubs, even some championship clubs would want or allow this to happen other than in a minimal token form?  Some of these are multi million even billion pound businesses.  The only way 50+1 etc. could ever be implemented is through legislation.  Does anyone seriously believe that a conservative government cares about the common man above private business and rich owners?

Don't even get me started on the premier league, football league, Uefa, Fifa, the PFA etc. who all have vested interests mostly financial in nothing changing.

The fact that Gary "Salford City" Neville has somehow become the voice of the fans and fair competetive leagues should tell you everything you need to know about what happens next.  
I have been in full agreement with almost all your stuff over the last few days. However when you say big clubs and the like what you are actually talking about is the legal owners. I say ďlegalĒ owners for want of a better word as the real owners and true voice of the clubs are obviously the fans, ask them and you may well get a different answer. If every supporters group was capable of unifying its support base and then was able to unify with every other supporters group around the country anything would be possible? Idealistic nonsense maybe, but not impossible? Small steps gentlemen/ladies? Either way donít confuse these self absorbed, egotistical and rapacious individuals with the true owners of the clubs thank you 😉
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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2021, 18:26:00 pm »

GPC, I know your self and a lot of the trust keep banging on about fan ownership,  but could you just wait to see what the fans want first? Maybe even wait to see the outcome of the poll on this thread to see which way the fans are leaning ?
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« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2021, 19:29:04 pm »

If the funds are achieved to buy the club by 'the fans', who is going to fund the £1-1.5m annually (with no return), in order to maintain the club at it's current Div 4 level?
Is our budget going to be dropped to a break even level, which would put us in an even worse financial situation regarding improvement? 
"Standing still is going backwards"

Agreed
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« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2021, 19:34:18 pm »

GPC, I know your self and a lot of the trust keep banging on about fan ownership,  but could you just wait to see what the fans want first? Maybe even wait to see the outcome of the poll on this thread to see which way the fans are leaning ?

GPC is not representing the Trust on here, they are his own personal views and he is entitled to express them and the outcome of a poll on here ain't really worth diddly-squat.
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2021, 19:48:28 pm »

Maybe he could reply for himself ?
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« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2021, 20:36:04 pm »

Maybe he could reply for himself ?

Ok, I will!!

The poll has a very small response so far, but i'm already finding it interesting! I of course did not pose the questions, so i'd be interested to know how many of the "majority" so far want the KT option or the someone else option as both were contained in the same response.

Is there an element of "better the devil you know".....do people know enough about what a "fan ownership" model would actually look like?

Its difficult to read to much into the figures so far but i'm not going to dismiss them, and indeed have reported back to other Trust board members on the poll's progress so far!

My personal view is that I would like to see a fan ownership model, but i'm not naÔve to think that would mean that fans ran the club and were the only ones putting in an money. Its already been touched on but there are a number of local people out there who could possibly come on board should things change and there be a full business plan put together.

There are a number of other schemes.... one of which, "Foundation of Hearts" is I think an excellent model to look at as a possible way forward.  https://www.foundationofhearts.org/

TCobb, yes I agree wholeheartedly that anything that happens has got to be "what the fans want"...... the question is, how do we actually get to find out what the majority of NTFC fans want? Does the club run a survey, does the Trust do it? I'm not sure of the answer to that at the moment. Polls like this though give an inkling of an idea.

I think everyone would agree just by looking at the posts on this site that there is no unified thought process at the moment, either on a local level, or even a national (dareIsay European level!)

Drilling puts it quite nicely in his post below (16:25), I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he has said there.

That just about sums up my personal feelings on this matter.



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« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2021, 20:55:50 pm »

Something that was mentioned on here, about the "sticky" Trust section on this messageboard, all too sparsely populated over the past few years.....I have now posted in there!

Might be easier to post replies/responses/updates all in one place rather than populate many different threads with the answers to what are broadly the same questions!
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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2021, 22:05:33 pm »

Many fans don't seem to care who has ownership so not sure how much notice should be paid to their view. Sorry if that sounds harsh but surely thats true. The fans never had a vote with any other owner.

Any fan ownership / hybrid model would be funded by those who chose to and hence have the control. Ordinary fans like Hammy are happy with any football so it shouldn't matter to them if the owners are local and care about the club.

I strongly believe that under local ownership, a lot more business support would be forthcoming as would, given time, more fans would return. 

We have to focus on a long term plan, we have to change, we have to build step by step, with younger, hungry players, give them time. Have a plan to improve the training facilities, beg, steal or borrow whatever we can.

People will come along if we are on a journey.

No-one has a right to Championship football but Wycombe have just experienced it and that only happened when local ownership got the club moving and attracted decent investment.

So I say to the Trust - rebrand and go again, this time with more determination, get the business people on board, get a plan and make it public.
As other have said, it needs to be modern in it's approach, get as many people on board as possible and keep pushing until the change happens.



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« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2021, 22:30:33 pm »

If you want the 51% model to work then it has to be replicated as in Germany. Every club included backed up by legislation? An incredibly difficult challenge to overcome retrospectively? However, if football is to survive the fast approaching financial Armageddon something radical and challenging needs to occur? It can only happen with a unified fan base at club and national level?
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« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2021, 22:52:30 pm »

Many fans don't seem to care who has ownership so not sure how much notice should be paid to their view. Sorry if that sounds harsh but surely thats true. The fans never had a vote with any other owner.

Any fan ownership / hybrid model would be funded by those who chose to and hence have the control. Ordinary fans like Hammy are happy with any football so it shouldn't matter to them if the owners are local and care about the club.

I strongly believe that under local ownership, a lot more business support would be forthcoming as would, given time, more fans would return. 

We have to focus on a long term plan, we have to change, we have to build step by step, with younger, hungry players, give them time. Have a plan to improve the training facilities, beg, steal or borrow whatever we can.

People will come along if we are on a journey.

No-one has a right to Championship football but Wycombe have just experienced it and that only happened when local ownership got the club moving and attracted decent investment.

So I say to the Trust - rebrand and go again, this time with more determination, get the business people on board, get a plan and make it public.
As other have said, it needs to be modern in it's approach, get as many people on board as possible and keep pushing until the change happens.




Excluding anyone is counterproductive and doomed to failure. A consistent issue with your posts is that you will continually voice your interpretation of other peopleís opinion decide that is accurate, and demand a strategy based on this assumption? How do you know they donít care, perhaps they are happy with KT, perhaps they are not but think any alternative spells disaster for the club? The continual rhetoric you convey is divisive, antagonistic and plays right into the hands of the the type of owner you are working to exclude? I know this comes from a passion and your heart is in the right place but I am going to call you out for it because I feel this type of communication is unfair and stifles any momentum. Iíve told you this before, put forward your view on the club, itís vital you do. However, do not suppress or exclude opinion from other supporters because you by default become the ally of all you find abhorrent. All IMO of course.
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« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2021, 22:52:43 pm »

Says a lot really that despite what happened with Cardoza and what seems to be happening with Thomas/Bower that the "As is"
option is leading. We need change and sticking with what we've got or what we had or what we might get has obviously never worked as a way forward for improvement in over 50 years. We're no further forward with no better facilities, infrastructure, ideas, league position etc. We're exactly as we were when we entered the league in the bottom division over 100 years ago and have spent the majority of our existence in it. Doesn't that suggest that something drastic or radical needs to happen. My own choice would be the 50+1% option which appears to work pretty well in Germany and doesn't have to mean complete fan ownership and could attract interest and investment from numerous local businesses who want to see a successful football team in their town and also wealthier fans who would be prepared to put their hands in their pockets if they knew it was for the benefit of the club and not lining someone else's pocket and keep the onus on the people who actually have the clubs interest at heart. I know there needs to be a fundamental change and apparently some sort of legislation for this to happen but something radical needs to happen soon otherwise we're just going to plod on as we were for the next 100 years in our poxy little tin box with no ambition and no way forward, or possibly a whole lot worse and that is so sad.
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« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2021, 00:24:23 am »

Says a lot really that despite what happened with Cardoza and what seems to be happening with Thomas/Bower that the "As is"
option is leading. We need change and sticking with what we've got or what we had or what we might get has obviously never worked as a way forward for improvement in over 50 years. We're no further forward with no better facilities, infrastructure, ideas, league position etc. We're exactly as we were when we entered the league in the bottom division over 100 years ago and have spent the majority of our existence in it. Doesn't that suggest that something drastic or radical needs to happen. My own choice would be the 50+1% option which appears to work pretty well in Germany and doesn't have to mean complete fan ownership and could attract interest and investment from numerous local businesses who want to see a successful football team in their town and also wealthier fans who would be prepared to put their hands in their pockets if they knew it was for the benefit of the club and not lining someone else's pocket and keep the onus on the people who actually have the clubs interest at heart. I know there needs to be a fundamental change and apparently some sort of legislation for this to happen but something radical needs to happen soon otherwise we're just going to plod on as we were for the next 100 years in our poxy little tin box with no ambition and no way forward, or possibly a whole lot worse and that is so sad.

You, Ragdoll,  Mysterious Curle going to lead us to the promised land. Most of that above is pie in the sky when do you Guys ever get real?
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2021, 07:27:11 am »

I know you are a champion of fan ownership but donít necessarily agree that is the way forward at the moment. It lacks overall support and a charismatic leader like Brian Lomax and Rob Marshall!
You clearly have not seen Rob Marshall lately....
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« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2021, 09:56:29 am »

Excluding anyone is counterproductive and doomed to failure. A consistent issue with your posts is that you will continually voice your interpretation of other peopleís opinion decide that is accurate, and demand a strategy based on this assumption? How do you know they donít care, perhaps they are happy with KT, perhaps they are not but think any alternative spells disaster for the club? The continual rhetoric you convey is divisive, antagonistic and plays right into the hands of the the type of owner you are working to exclude? I know this comes from a passion and your heart is in the right place but I am going to call you out for it because I feel this type of communication is unfair and stifles any momentum. Iíve told you this before, put forward your view on the club, itís vital you do. However, do not suppress or exclude opinion from other supporters because you by default become the ally of all you find abhorrent. All IMO of course.

 Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2021, 10:02:01 am »

Mel C, I am just saying that if a group of fans want a change of ownership they have to make their own statements and plans. All this asking what fans want is pointless.

Put together a plan and sell it to those who need to buy into it ie: WNC, KT, investors. The help move the plan forward, the more fans that support it the better.

That's all I'm trying to say, I am not trying to exclude anyone. At the end of the day, a few people lead, the rest follow. The Trust / fan 50+1 option need to lead and motivate fans to support them in their plan.

Ok lets say people are happy with KT, why?  he pays the bills and used to smile a lot!  Pretty sure a fan/investor model could certainly do that as a minimum.

In fact I would love to hear opinions from other supporters, especially those pro the current situation - but you rarely hear them, just as you attack me, they do the same - see the everbrite post just above - "pie in the sky"  with no reason to support KT other than " he saved us" and we are not non-league (yet)

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« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2021, 10:03:02 am »

Evers - why should I support KT rather than something else like local investment and support?
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« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2021, 10:12:00 am »

Mel C, I am just saying that if a group of fans want a change of ownership they have to make their own statements and plans. All this asking what fans want is pointless.

Put together a plan and sell it to those who need to buy into it ie: WNC, KT, investors. The help move the plan forward, the more fans that support it the better.

That's all I'm trying to say, I am not trying to exclude anyone. At the end of the day, a few people lead, the rest follow. The Trust / fan 50+1 option need to lead and motivate fans to support them in their plan.

Ok lets say people are happy with KT, why?  he pays the bills and used to smile a lot!  Pretty sure a fan/investor model could certainly do that as a minimum.

In fact I would love to hear opinions from other supporters, especially those pro the current situation - but you rarely hear them, just as you attack me, they do the same - see the everbrite post just above - "pie in the sky"  with no reason to support KT other than " he saved us" and we are not non-league (yet)


Not an attack, just an observation. Completely your choice if you decide to take it onboard or not obviously?
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« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2021, 10:18:29 am »

I do understand what you are saying Mel C.  Smiley

Of course you want as many fans as possible behind you, just don't let others that don't agree put you off. that's all I'm saying.



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