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The way forward.

Poll
Question: How would you like to see the club run?  (Voting closed: May 10, 2021, 15:30:01 pm)
As is with either KT/DB or A.N.Other at the helm? - 33 (58.9%)
Local/Fan ownership (where does the money come from?) - 10 (17.9%)
Phoenix club under fan/local ownership after the club goes **** up?? - 4 (7.1%)
Don't give a crap as long as we are playing in L1 or L2 - 9 (16.1%)
Total Voters: 56

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Author Topic: The way forward.  (Read 6047 times)
cobblertone
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« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2021, 09:21:46 am »

Sports science and use of data is huge in professional sport. Different level but for Saints for example tag their players, know what they are sleeping, exercising, constantly accessing niggles and adapting training schedules etc. There will be stats available on everything now and Iím sure there is tons of stuff that goes on that we donít see.
I would hope that weíve moved on from scouts watching players with his whippet down the park, although you have to question some of our recruitment and injury levels.
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All he had to do was build a stand.
CJ
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« Reply #81 on: May 08, 2021, 10:40:56 am »

I bet super Sammy comes close to top of every statistical analysis that he gets entered for.
It's what were aiming for, a team full of Hoskinites.


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Melbourne Cobbler
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« Reply #82 on: May 08, 2021, 10:53:48 am »

I donít think that anyone should be surprised that there will be an amount of contrition from the club. Itís standard protocol these days to fully own up to your mistakes, say sorry, then hope everyone forgives and forgets. It tends to shorten the post-mortem, and put a halt to the recriminations.

BUT

Iím with you on this Melbourne. We are all up for a decent heartfelt apology. As long as looks like everybody has tried their best, and covered all the bases. But to openly say oops. We forget to carry out the most basic strategy to ensure some success in our field, is ridiculous. I find it inconceivable that by saying, guess what, we've literally just realised how football works, and weíre going give that a go now, just makes them look like prize fools.

They should have just issued a genuine apology and not got into a bunch of manipulating hogwash.
Bit late for that. If KT worked for me Iíd be asking him to consider his position? But he doesnít so Iím not.
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Zen Master
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« Reply #83 on: May 08, 2021, 11:31:11 am »

Stats profile from last summers recruitment.
Do you know where Northampton is - yes
Are you a footballer- yes
Are your expectations of wages low - yes
Do you run around a lot - yes
Do you promise you are fit more often than not - yes
100%
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I think someone should just take this city of Peterborough and just... just flush it down the f***in' toilet
Peles Big Toe
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« Reply #84 on: May 08, 2021, 13:22:09 pm »

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/football/cobblers-to-take-a-more-data-driven-approach-to-recruitment-3228390

Given the standard of recruitment last season, I am disappointed but not surprised that this was not already in place? When you are investing in a player whether it be contractually or with a fee I would have thought it is vital that you evaluate that decision with all available information at your disposal? IMO this is basic professional management stuff, and a significant failing if this process was not a significant factor previously? Donít worry, Iím not about to go into a business management lecture, but this is quite an admission on the part of the club, again IMO?

The very fact he admitted to not bothering to recruit someone this summer to do the job properly speaks volumes.
 
An analyst would be on max £35k + few thousands for the database. Absolute no brainer to me, given the scatter-gun approach to signings last year it pays for itself.
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bungle
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« Reply #85 on: May 08, 2021, 14:09:01 pm »

to openly say oops. We forget to carry out the most basic strategy to ensure some success in our field, is ridiculous. I find it inconceivable that by saying, guess what, we've literally just realised how football works, and weíre going give that a go now, just makes them look like prize fools.

They should have just issued a genuine apology and not got into a bunch of manipulating hogwash.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't see this as 'manipulating hogwash' at all.

After a season of failure and missed opportunities, what I want to see is genuine analysis rather than glib platitudes. IMO KT is correct in his diagnosis of the main issues:

1. 'We didn't recruit enough League 1 experience'
2. 'I don't think we recruited to the style of play Keith was looking to play'
3. we possibly needed a target man and more strength at the back
4. Need for more data-driven recruitment
5. Disconnect between the youth team and first team in terms of style of play (making it difficult to integrate young players)

Given that our budget was 'not a bottom four budget' (Whiting), the primary responsibility has to be born by Curle and Tracey for their poor recruitment.

You imply that fully data-driven recruitment is a 'basic strategy' but I suspect that it is still far from universal in L2 and the lower end of L1. I suspect there are still many old-school managers (Curle and Sheridan to name two) who prefer to recruit on gut-instinct. Curle has said in podcast interviews that he recruits primarily on 'character' which is why we've ended up with a squad of plucky triers without the requisite quality to perform in L1. (I suspect KT's contentment with character-based recruitment might be an over-correction based on the talented but gutless squad of Crooks, Van Veen, Grimes and Periera who got us relegated so meekly last time around.)

The signing of Harry Smith is a classic example of where we've been going wrong. I strongly suspect that Curle saw him score and play well against us, took in his 6'5 height and build, took a cursory glance at his record of 9 goals in 39 games for struggling Macc
and decided that he was the answer to his search for that elusive target man. If we had a proper data analyst then they might well have uncovered that he wins comparatively few 'aerial duals' and this hold-up possession to lay-off ratio is low: in other words, he ain't no targetman. Danny Rose is another case study: a player with good 'character' and 'work rate' who was seemingly signed without anyone properly analysing whether he would thrive on the type of chances we were creating (or not creating) at the time.

IMO KT's acknowledgement of these issues is an important step forward, however modest and belated it might be. I also welcome his implicit acknowledgement that the club's style of play or 'identity' needs to evolve beyond the hoofball purveyed by messers Curle and Boothroyd. There's a reason why virtually every team in L1 plays passing possession football these days, with Gillingham (who have some artisans like Dempsey to compliment the directness) the exception that proves the rule. Hoofball merchants like Curle are found out at L1 level and it's time for us to leave that behind.

Time will tell if KT can deliver on his recruitment promises. However, this is the first time I've seen him properly analyse and acknowledge the structural issues underpinning our L2-L1 yo-yo cycle, and that for me is a positive step forward. 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 16:52:29 pm by bungle » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #86 on: May 08, 2021, 14:34:16 pm »

It is a shocking indictment of how to run a business let alone a football club.
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« Reply #87 on: May 08, 2021, 16:23:54 pm »

Bungle always puts up thought provoking and intelligent posts, but 6 years to develop a thorough and effective recruitment and development policy, give me a break? If the correct processes were in place the failures listed at the beginning of the post wouldnít have occurred, and six years to implement them is p155 poor. Itís not like this hasnít been a major issue in the past, this should have been addressed last time we had a team full of Ash Taylors , Joe Bunnyís and Vent Spleens leaning on the corner flag scratching their ball bag, if not the get go. This is not the first club they have owned either? Fair enough they have identified significant areas of concern, but after 6 years? Sorry to go on about it but simply not good enough Iím afraid?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 16:29:33 pm by Melbourne Cobbler » Report Spam   Logged

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bungle
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« Reply #88 on: May 08, 2021, 16:51:11 pm »

Bungle always puts up thought provoking and intelligent posts, but 6 years to develop a thorough and effective recruitment and development policy, give me a break? If the correct processes were in place the failures listed at the beginning of the post wouldnít have occurred, and six years to implement them is p155 poor.

I agree that this change in policy could and should have been implemented earlier. I think KT has finally realised that he's taken an overly 'hands off' approach to the transfer policy during our League One seasons which has led to either the recruitment of players with poor character (the Van Veen/Periera relegation season) or lack of ability (this season). 

On the other hand, we've had two promotions and a £1 million plus sale during his tenure: there are definitely a lot of lower-league clubs whose recruitment has been significantly worse than ours.

My argument is that it's a case of better late than never. I greet the new structure with cautious optimism but it remains to be seen whether it will bear fruit. 
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Terryfenwickatemyhamster
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« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2021, 19:18:10 pm »

Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't see this as 'manipulating hogwash' at all.

After a season of failure and missed opportunities, what I want to see is genuine analysis rather than glib platitudes. IMO KT is correct in his diagnosis of the main issues:

1. 'We didn't recruit enough League 1 experience'
2. 'I don't think we recruited to the style of play Keith was looking to play'
3. we possibly needed a target man and more strength at the back
4. Need for more data-driven recruitment

5. Disconnect between the youth team and first team in terms of style of play (making it difficult to integrate young players)

Given that our budget was 'not a bottom four budget' (Whiting), the primary responsibility has to be born by Curle and Tracey for their poor recruitment.

You imply that fully data-driven recruitment is a 'basic strategy' but I suspect that it is still far from universal in L2 and the lower end of L1. I suspect there are still many old-school managers (Curle and Sheridan to name two) who prefer to recruit on gut-instinct. Curle has said in podcast interviews that he recruits primarily on 'character' which is why we've ended up with a squad of plucky triers without the requisite quality to perform in L1. (I suspect KT's contentment with character-based recruitment might be an over-correction based on the talented but gutless squad of Crooks, Van Veen, Grimes and Periera who got us relegated so meekly last time around.)

The signing of Harry Smith is a classic example of where we've been going wrong. I strongly suspect that Curle saw him score and play well against us, took in his 6'5 height and build, took a cursory glance at his record of 9 goals in 39 games for struggling Macc
and decided that he was the answer to his search for that elusive target man. If we had a proper data analyst then they might well have uncovered that he wins comparatively few 'aerial duals' and this hold-up possession to lay-off ratio is low: in other words, he ain't no targetman. Danny Rose is another case study: a player with good 'character' and 'work rate' who was seemingly signed without anyone properly analysing whether he would thrive on the type of chances we were creating (or not creating) at the time.

IMO KT's acknowledgement of these issues is an important step forward, however modest and belated it might be. I also welcome his implicit acknowledgement that the club's style of play or 'identity' needs to evolve beyond the hoofball purveyed by messers Curle and Boothroyd. There's a reason why virtually every team in L1 plays passing possession football these days, with Gillingham (who have some artisans like Dempsey to compliment the directness) the exception that proves the rule. Hoofball merchants like Curle are found out at L1 level and it's time for us to leave that behind.

Time will tell if KT can deliver on his recruitment promises. However, this is the first time I've seen him properly analyse and acknowledge the structural issues underpinning our L2-L1 yo-yo cycle, and that for me is a positive step forward. 


In my opinion, and I fully respect your analysis. His acknowledgment, is nothing more than an admission in taking their eye off the ball.

But thatís opinions for you. 👍



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Manwork04
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« Reply #90 on: May 08, 2021, 20:35:46 pm »

IMO KT is full of s...t.
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Rule Britannia
Terryfenwickatemyhamster
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« Reply #91 on: May 08, 2021, 20:37:49 pm »

IMO KT is full of s...t.

You've got it as bad as old Beds now mate...
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Melbourne Cobbler
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« Reply #92 on: May 08, 2021, 21:13:18 pm »

I agree that this change in policy could and should have been implemented earlier. I think KT has finally realised that he's taken an overly 'hands off' approach to the transfer policy during our League One seasons which has led to either the recruitment of players with poor character (the Van Veen/Periera relegation season) or lack of ability (this season). 

On the other hand, we've had two promotions and a £1 million plus sale during his tenure: there are definitely a lot of lower-league clubs whose recruitment has been significantly worse than ours.

My argument is that it's a case of better late than never. I greet the new structure with cautious optimism but it remains to be seen whether it will bear fruit. 

The key point for me is that you adopt any and all means at your disposal including strategies and processes, to minimise the risk of that happening? Identify areas of weakness in any strategy or process and improve where budgetary or personnel constraints allow. A continual process of record, measure, report, evaluate, implement to protect and grow the business. Apologies for the patronising rhetoric, but that could be straight out of any textbook of basic management for beginners?

I suppose itís because I am so incredulous that modern professional techniques (data and statistical analysis ainít that new) hasnít been adopted previously? I naturally assumed they were? I have been supportive of the board in the past, because from a financial perspective they have been mostly bang on with the decision making? It might have been at odds with some supporters expectations for the club, but it allowed them to defend their position with some element of credibility?

However, if you are going to use that standard to defend them, it would be amiss if you turned a blind eye when they came up so short when applying that criteria in other key areas? All that says to me is that we have recruited a bloody good accountant onto the board but the Operations Director is either sh1t, or gone AWOL, particularly in light of the fact they have constantly repeated the same mistake at significant cost and consequence? Anyway as I said, sorry for banging on about it, Iím having a fume because we got relegated.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 21:15:42 pm by Melbourne Cobbler » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #93 on: May 08, 2021, 23:47:39 pm »

You've got it as bad as old Beds now mate...
I know Iíve got tooth ache and Iím pissed off, the whiskey is easing the pain though 👍
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« Reply #94 on: May 09, 2021, 07:48:23 am »

I know Iíve got tooth ache and Iím pissed off, the whiskey is easing the pain though 👍

 Grin Grin 

Do you thatís whatís wrong with Beds?
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Manwork04
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« Reply #95 on: May 09, 2021, 11:00:01 am »

Could be  Grin although Iím no dentist  Grin Grin
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« Reply #96 on: May 09, 2021, 12:05:21 pm »

Could be  Grin although Iím no dentist  Grin Grin

If it is.. He'll blame KT 😃
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« Reply #97 on: May 09, 2021, 14:11:29 pm »

Of course itís all about opinions and mine is that the  data driven sports scientist route has a value at the elite level of any sport - fine margins with the best sportsmen in the world but for Division 3 and 4 you can have a 20 TB hard disk of data but continuing to play(for example) a goalkeeper who will gift the opposition a goal or two most games makes all that data somewhat redundant - tactical nous for the league you are in, good level of fitness, team spirit and reasonable players will see you in the right half of the table at this level - this season we particularly failed on points 1 and 4.
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« Reply #98 on: May 09, 2021, 14:17:25 pm »

Of course itís all about opinions and mine is that the  data driven sports scientist route has a value at the elite level of any sport - fine margins with the best sportsmen in the world but for Division 3 and 4 you can have a 20 TB hard disk of data but continuing to play(for example) a goalkeeper who will gift the opposition a goal or two most games makes all that data somewhat redundant - tactical nous for the league you are in, good level of fitness, team spirit and reasonable players will see you in the right half of the table at this level - this season we particularly failed on points 1 and 4.
Couldnt agree more.
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« Reply #99 on: May 09, 2021, 14:21:04 pm »



1. 'We didn't recruit enough League 1 experience'


We didn't recruit enough players who could pass to each other
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