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The way forward.

Poll
Question: How would you like to see the club run?  (Voting closed: May 10, 2021, 15:30:01 pm)
As is with either KT/DB or A.N.Other at the helm? - 33 (58.9%)
Local/Fan ownership (where does the money come from?) - 10 (17.9%)
Phoenix club under fan/local ownership after the club goes **** up?? - 4 (7.1%)
Don't give a crap as long as we are playing in L1 or L2 - 9 (16.1%)
Total Voters: 56

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Author Topic: The way forward.  (Read 5949 times)
singcobb
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« on: May 03, 2021, 15:30:01 pm »

Well CJ came up with the idea for this poll, so blame him.

Just remember how much KT/DB have out into the club to keep it running, if you go for Local/Fan ownership those figures do not magically disappear.

AND DON'T ANY OF YOU BUGGERS TURN THIS INTO ANOTHER REDEV THREAD.
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GrangeParkCobbler
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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2021, 15:36:48 pm »

I think the pressure will build enough that the whole football model will change, ie there will be no more "one person in charge" scenarios.....fan participation/ownership is the way forward. Whether thats the German 50+1 model, or some hybrid model remains to be seen......

For me, a local consortium, with local people at the helm and lots more local participation is the way forward for clubs at our level.
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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2021, 16:02:00 pm »

I think the pressure will build enough that the whole football model will change, ie there will be no more "one person in charge" scenarios.....fan participation/ownership is the way forward. Whether thats the German 50+1 model, or some hybrid model remains to be seen......

For me, a local consortium, with local people at the helm and lots more local participation is the way forward for clubs at our level.
Agreed, plus give managers and other staff the same contracts as most working people get, i.e if your not good at your job you get a months notice.
   How much of NTFC's £7M debt as gone to former managers ?
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2021, 16:03:43 pm »

Of these options. Option two.

Option five - New investment and ownership would be my preference.
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2021, 16:06:57 pm »

Agreed, plus give managers and other staff the same contracts as most working people get, i.e if your not good at your job you get a months notice.
   How much of NTFC's £7M debt as gone to former managers ?

TBH i'd guess not that much..... lets say a manager is on £100k a year......?? Even paying them all off for two years after sacking them (Austin, Curle, Hasselbaink etc) wouldn't add up to a million......

Someone mentioned something on another post.......if the playing staff wage bill is £2m for the year (from the Chief Exec) then why are the staff costs for the year in the accounts shown as £3.9m....where does the rest go??
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2021, 16:15:34 pm »

I very much doubt that JFH got off his ar*e for £100,000.
    Re the "other" £1.9M, I asked this question months ago, there can't be many more than 25 full time staff on the non playing side can they and I think virtually all the match day staff are hourly paid and on minimum wages, they certainly used to be.
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2021, 16:26:43 pm »

I very much doubt that JFH got off his ar*e for £100,000.
    Re the "other" £1.9M, I asked this question months ago, there can't be many more than 25 full time staff on the non playing side can they and I think virtually all the match day staff are hourly paid and on minimum wages, they certainly used to be.

You say that about JFH, but how much do you think "little old Burton" are paying him now? I do accept though that JFH came in as part of the Chinese splurge so could have been on considerably more than we'd normally pay.

According to this article the "average League 1 manager" was paid £182k a year. I doubt we'd be at the top end of the scale for paying managerial salaries for the likes of Curle, Austin, Boothroyd, Edinburgh, certainly Brady!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8262315/Physios-191-000-kit-men-56-000-Crazy-wages-dont-add-EFL-clubs-brink.html
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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2021, 17:58:18 pm »

Well CJ came up with the idea for this poll, so blame him.

Just remember how much KT/DB have out into the club to keep it running, if you go for Local/Fan ownership those figures do not magically disappear.

AND DON'T ANY OF YOU BUGGERS TURN THIS INTO ANOTHER REDEV THREAD.
Did I?...Dont know whether to be flattered or what?!
I asked the question, at what point would a phoenix club be a serious consideration for a majority of fans (opposed to that scenario being forced upon us).
I asked because I am probably in the minority in the sense that I support and have supported the club for many years but have no other direct links to Northampton. To me the club is Northampton Town Football Club opposed to NORTHAMPTON Town football club if you get the distinction. The Cobblers are the closest league club to where I have lived for the majority of my life (arguably Coventry but I would never have been allowed to support them given the pretty strong family links to Villa), and I live in Northamptonshire, just, which I'm pretty firm about but I have no relatives, friends or ex wives hanging out in the town or any other reason to visit really.
So if NTFC went to the wall I wouldnt see it as a loss to the fabric of Northampton or the Town losing part of its heritage in the way most might, and I know Melbourne would.
So if a Phoenix club formed independently or not of the collapse of NTFC, that would to me be an appropriate thing if the majority of fans felt the same. It would not work for me if it was a takeover of an existing junior club like Sileby or ON Checkniks though. We would need to start again and in doing so deliberately pull whatever was left from under the feet of the old club. I wouldn't be drowning in my beer at the demise of NTFC, I would be angry that two guys preceded by a father and son amd others before them had all held to club I had heavily invested in over the years to ransom in order to line their own pockets, but I would be more excited at the prospect of something rising in its place which truly represented your town free from exploitative property developers and the like. Whether it was fan owned or owned by a local consortium would not initially be a serious consideration for me.
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« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2021, 18:29:39 pm »

I chose 62% option as its a pragmatic choice and favoured so far Cool
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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2021, 19:02:40 pm »

Did I?...Dont know whether to be flattered or what?!
I asked the question, at what point would a phoenix club be a serious consideration for a majority of fans (opposed to that scenario being forced upon us).
I asked because I am probably in the minority in the sense that I support and have supported the club for many years but have no other direct links to Northampton. To me the club is Northampton Town Football Club opposed to NORTHAMPTON Town football club if you get the distinction. The Cobblers are the closest league club to where I have lived for the majority of my life (arguably Coventry but I would never have been allowed to support them given the pretty strong family links to Villa), and I live in Northamptonshire, just, which I'm pretty firm about but I have no relatives, friends or ex wives hanging out in the town or any other reason to visit really.
So if NTFC went to the wall I wouldnt see it as a loss to the fabric of Northampton or the Town losing part of its heritage in the way most might, and I know Melbourne would.
So if a Phoenix club formed independently or not of the collapse of NTFC, that would to me be an appropriate thing if the majority of fans felt the same. It would not work for me if it was a takeover of an existing junior club like Sileby or ON Checkniks though. We would need to start again and in doing so deliberately pull whatever was left from under the feet of the old club. I wouldn't be drowning in my beer at the demise of NTFC, I would be angry that two guys preceded by a father and son amd others before them had all held to club I had heavily invested in over the years to ransom in order to line their own pockets, but I would be more excited at the prospect of something rising in its place which truly represented your town free from exploitative property developers and the like. Whether it was fan owned or owned by a local consortium would not initially be a serious consideration for me.

I did the poll based upon you question regarding the phoenix club just to see where the dice falls. I am a bit like you. I have no direct links to Northampton. I grew up in the county, but do not consider Northampton to be my "Home Town". I would be deeply saddened if NTFC were to fold after all my years of supporting them and their long history, but I'm not sure I would throw my support behind a phoenix club, it just would not be the same. As to what may bring the demise of the club, I think it better we leave that topic to be discussed on the "other" thread.
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2021, 20:11:43 pm »

The fan ownership suggestion is an interesting on, in principle I think it would be the best thing for all lower league clubs to be all fan owned. At the moment that isn’t the case though, there’s been so many complaints about our player budget this year but if we were fan owned our budget compared to other teams would have to be reduced and would be even smaller, the club couldn’t run at the loses it does now. I wonder how forgiving fans would be then, if we weren’t doing well but had no means to bring in players at Christmas to sort it out, I fear fans would be calling for the next taxi on the rank to take over the club.
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2021, 22:27:42 pm »

I would CJ, correct. As others have stated the German model only works because it is underpinned by legislation. The only way to have a chance of influencing that is if all the supporters Trusts join a National co-operative and make a unified decision to lobby for this? Obviously each Trust would remain independent but if supporters really want a voice and some control that’s the only realistic way to achieve it I can think of?
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2021, 22:59:52 pm »

Did I?...Dont know whether to be flattered or what?!
I asked the question, at what point would a phoenix club be a serious consideration for a majority of fans (opposed to that scenario being forced upon us).
I asked because I am probably in the minority in the sense that I support and have supported the club for many years but have no other direct links to Northampton. To me the club is Northampton Town Football Club opposed to NORTHAMPTON Town football club if you get the distinction. The Cobblers are the closest league club to where I have lived for the majority of my life (arguably Coventry but I would never have been allowed to support them given the pretty strong family links to Villa), and I live in Northamptonshire, just, which I'm pretty firm about but I have no relatives, friends or ex wives hanging out in the town or any other reason to visit really.
So if NTFC went to the wall I wouldnt see it as a loss to the fabric of Northampton or the Town losing part of its heritage in the way most might, and I know Melbourne would.
So if a Phoenix club formed independently or not of the collapse of NTFC, that would to me be an appropriate thing if the majority of fans felt the same. It would not work for me if it was a takeover of an existing junior club like Sileby or ON Checkniks though. We would need to start again and in doing so deliberately pull whatever was left from under the feet of the old club. I wouldn't be drowning in my beer at the demise of NTFC, I would be angry that two guys preceded by a father and son amd others before them had all held to club I had heavily invested in over the years to ransom in order to line their own pockets, but I would be more excited at the prospect of something rising in its place which truly represented your town free from exploitative property developers and the like. Whether it was fan owned or owned by a local consortium would not initially be a serious consideration for me.

While I admire your stance CJ and the fact that people with no direct links to Northanpton have an affinity and allegiance to the football team is a refreshing change to people who actually do have an affinity and direct link to the town, but choose to support; Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea etc, to me the club is most certainly and undeniably NORTHAMPTON TOWN Football Club. To me and many people it is territorial, almost tribal. Why would anyone wish success on a town/ city they have no connection with, other than the fact they chose them when they were at school when they had a bit of success and I'm on about bandwagonners here CJ, obviously not you. Surely the success and popularity of your own town brings a sense of pride you can be a part of and revel in, not some shallow pretence of another towns success. As for going to the wall not being a loss to the fabric of the town, to me, that is sacrilege. While, if the club did have to rise, Phoenix like, from the ashes I would certainly be behind it but the thought of losing our 100+ year league status is unthinkable and whoever was the architect of such a demise, I'd like to think they'd be unwelcome and fearful of ever setting foot in our fair town ever again. Just my own thoughts and opinions. Anyone else?
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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2021, 07:45:09 am »

We could with being able to choose two options 😀

No chance of progress past league one under fan ownership. Either decent caveats around enabling money, or a very generous/mad owner.
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2021, 08:40:17 am »

We could with being able to choose two options 😀

No chance of progress past league one under fan ownership. Either decent caveats around enabling money, or a very generous/mad owner.
1967
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2021, 08:42:49 am »

1967
The last year we were higher than League One  Wink
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 10:34:43 am »

While I admire your stance CJ and the fact that people with no direct links to Northanpton have an affinity and allegiance to the football team is a refreshing change to people who actually do have an affinity and direct link to the town, but choose to support; Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea etc, to me the club is most certainly and undeniably NORTHAMPTON TOWN Football Club. To me and many people it is territorial, almost tribal. Why would anyone wish success on a town/ city they have no connection with, other than the fact they chose them when they were at school when they had a bit of success and I'm on about bandwagonners here CJ, obviously not you. Surely the success and popularity of your own town brings a sense of pride you can be a part of and revel in, not some shallow pretence of another towns success. As for going to the wall not being a loss to the fabric of the town, to me, that is sacrilege. While, if the club did have to rise, Phoenix like, from the ashes I would certainly be behind it but the thought of losing our 100+ year league status is unthinkable and whoever was the architect of such a demise, I'd like to think they'd be unwelcome and fearful of ever setting foot in our fair town ever again. Just my own thoughts and opinions. Anyone else?
I absolutely understand your position, believe me I do. That's why I asked the question earlier, in case I was surprised by some of the answers (although I wasnt actually expecting replies).
Just to add, I am also very proud of our 100 year league status, I've said so on here before. I dont think it should be underestimated and indeed when you look at the list of clubs who have resolutely 'stayed league', about sixty the last time I looked, we are one of the smallest and least effective in terms of our overall history, so very well done, we can give ourselves a big pat on the back. I hope I csn say that without being a townie!
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 15:37:00 pm »

The last year we were higher than League One  Wink

League 1 or 2 status could quite possibly be maintained under fan ownership, but most of the critics on here, who are calling for change, seem to think we have some divine right to be playing at championship level, simply because Northampton is a large town. Sadly it doesn't work like that.
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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2021, 15:46:59 pm »

League 1 or 2 status could quite possibly be maintained under fan ownership, but most of the critics on here, who are calling for change, seem to think we have some divine right to be playing at championship level, simply because Northampton is a large town. Sadly it doesn't work like that.

If the funds are achieved to buy the club by 'the fans', who is going to fund the £1-1.5m annually (with no return), in order to maintain the club at it's current Div 4 level?
Is our budget going to be dropped to a break even level, which would put us in an even worse financial situation regarding improvement? 
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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2021, 16:25:54 pm »

Be interested to know from someone who fully understands accounts. From companies house...

AFC Wimbledon - looks like they've racked up losses of just short of 2million in the last 2 years?
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/04458490/filing-history

Exeter's - looks like they've got plenty of available cash, but cant see a profit/loss summary?
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00097808/filing-history

Newport County's - looks like just short of a million quid profit in their last filed accounts year, very small loss year before?
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02395863/filing-history

These are obviously the three current owned fans clubs in the football league; Wimbledon I think its fair to say have progressed well over the years but were close to being relegated these year. Exeter have been strong in league2 for some time now and still have a chance of making the playoffs. Newport Should make the playoffs.

There is no reason why a fans lead club shouldn't be able to perform reasonably well as a football league club in my opinion, and these examples surely back that view up? That said, its probably the ceiling as to how far they can go. I also think its fair to say that unless you get a sugar Daddy, making the jump from league1 to the championship and sustaining it is 'high roller' territory.

However. Where I do kind of have a different view to those who are more fan owned 'fans' than myself..is that each of these three clubs came back from its knees, gained significant momentum coming out of the national league (or lower) and 'carried that on' into the football league. Infrastructure wise they set themselves up at a time where their income wouldn't have all been spent on trying to compete in league1 or league2. And are now reaping the benefits of that. IF for example, the fans took ownership of NTFC as a football league club, the challenges to compete with its rivals whilst at the same time investing in training facilities, the academy (over and above current levels) etc with be vastly different than if 'we' took ownership much lower down the pyramid.

Which brings us onto the much talked about hybrid model. Where its a mix of fan ownership and private investment. IF it became the situation where every club has to follow that route, then I believe NTFC would hugely benefit from it. Because it would be a level playing field, 'rich fans' might want to have a 'play' etc etc. We are in a relatively prosperous area in the country, big catchment etc. Relative versus our rivals, I reckon we'd do alright. Bring it on! However; I have a different view point if we were to 'go it alone' with this model. Personally, I couldn't see it working. Would a business person sink significant money into a project that he/she doesn't control? When they could go to any other club etc and enjoy total freedom? I'm not so sure. Of course such individual/s do exist I'm sure, but would they sign up to a joint project from the off?

Its a fascinating topic. I see lots of views from both sides of the argument that are in my view, 'loaded'. I think reform across the whole footballing industry is absolutely necessary, but closer to home there are many challenges, many questions that would need answering etc. I hope that one day football becomes a much more, fan lead (financially) industry, but frankly I cant see it happening. It would effectively mean a nationalisation of private run businesses. Maybe if Corbyn had won it might have been!  Grin In Germany, they went the other way, from total community owned clubs to allowing private investment. Its a much bigger challenge going the way we need to go in this country.




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