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The Trust, is it lost?

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Terryfenwickatemyhamster
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2021, 21:15:35 pm »

The whole thing was done to discredit the trust I donít need proof to know that the staff didnít do it off their own back.


You need something more than plain denial. Of course you ďcouldĒ be right. But saying youíre right isnít going to cut it. For me, this is where it goes wrong. People tailor the truth to their own views, with a total disregard for any evidence. Yes, it seems very unlikely that the staff released a statement without KT's knowledge, but two of them have out right promised me that is the case. So whilst Iím not defending them, I have nothing to offer back to suggest they are lying. NowÖ if you have something that you know, say it. Prove them as liars. If not, just say the same as me and any other mere mortal.. that you are not sure. Or that it is unlikely.

There has to be some context here. Nobody knows that there statement was designed in any way to polarise the support. If it was, in my opinion it was already a late addition to what already a hugely split support. Iím indifferent when it comes to KT. I find him pleasant enough face to face, but I have worked with enough of his type to spot the direction and aim of his ambition. I stated that days after he took over. In fact I predicted this course of events. When I was on the trust board, I was adamant that we should have took a stand then about a seat on the board. But one thing is for sure, KT would not have needed to have prompted them to back him loyally. Sammo loves the guy. Graham Carr thinks his a decent chap too. So itís not inconceivable that the staff have gone out on a limb for him. Their statement is not a complete endorsement of his methods or ideas. It is just them saying that he is not what he his being portrayed to be by some. The Trust has made them feel that way. It is not down to any of us to tell them they are not allowed to be fed up, and further insult them by portraying them as nothing more than puppets. I am not defending KT, when I say they genuinely seem to love working for him. And I think that really sticks in the throat of those who donít like him.
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2021, 21:37:51 pm »

The trust needs to offer something other than sniping. I read a lot of sniping but no solutions forthcoming. They seem to want a sugar daddy who will write off the loan, pay for the stand and write off the cost off that cost too. They need to be realistic, that's not going to happen.

Fair enough we can all see DB/KT are here to try and make money off the land, and are not fans. We are in the same situation as when the Cardozas were owners, in that respect. In an ideal world the owners would be fans, not businessman. Are there any fans who would have covered the losses (abeilt in the form of the loan) that have been incurred?

The loan is only going to be repaid through a land deal. It will only be written-off when that has been exhausted and DB/KT have given up. The club will never repay the loan from normal trading, unless we sell Chuk for £10million.

The club continues to make losses and while it does we have to rely on someone to cover those losses.

I just want the trust to be a bit more realistic about the current situation.

I agree with some of this post and at the end of the day we are where we are. The issue I would have though is the seeming acceptance that we have to run at a loss of between 500k and £1m a year and are then grateful we have a Director covering those losses.
Yes, we all call for more money to be spent on the squad, a better pitch, new seats blah blah, all of which cost money, but perhaps this is where fans need to be more realistic too.

Some clubs make a small profit, some clubs make much bigger losses than we do.....football in general needs a "reset" to stop this from being the norm.

In what other business though would people not question the running of an operation which was turning in losses year in year out?
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2021, 21:39:51 pm »

You need something more than plain denial. Of course you ďcouldĒ be right. But saying youíre right isnít going to cut it. For me, this is where it goes wrong. People tailor the truth to their own views, with a total disregard for any evidence. Yes, it seems very unlikely that the staff released a statement without KT's knowledge, but two of them have out right promised me that is the case. So whilst Iím not defending them, I have nothing to offer back to suggest they are lying. NowÖ if you have something that you know, say it. Prove them as liars. If not, just say the same as me and any other mere mortal.. that you are not sure. Or that it is unlikely.

There has to be some context here. Nobody knows that there statement was designed in any way to polarise the support. If it was, in my opinion it was already a late addition to what already a hugely split support. Iím indifferent when it comes to KT. I find him pleasant enough face to face, but I have worked with enough of his type to spot the direction and aim of his ambition. I stated that days after he took over. In fact I predicted this course of events. When I was on the trust board, I was adamant that we should have took a stand then about a seat on the board. But one thing is for sure, KT would not have needed to have prompted them to back him loyally. Sammo loves the guy. Graham Carr thinks his a decent chap too. So itís not inconceivable that the staff have gone out on a limb for him. Their statement is not a complete endorsement of his methods or ideas. It is just them saying that he is not what he his being portrayed to be by some. The Trust has made them feel that way. It is not down to any of us to tell them they are not allowed to be fed up, and further insult them by portraying them as nothing more than puppets. I am not defending KT, when I say they genuinely seem to love working for him. And I think that really sticks in the throat of those who donít like him.

Good post, Tel.
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2021, 22:01:20 pm »

You need something more than plain denial. Of course you ďcouldĒ be right. But saying youíre right isnít going to cut it. For me, this is where it goes wrong. People tailor the truth to their own views, with a total disregard for any evidence. Yes, it seems very unlikely that the staff released a statement without KT's knowledge, but two of them have out right promised me that is the case. So whilst Iím not defending them, I have nothing to offer back to suggest they are lying. NowÖ if you have something that you know, say it. Prove them as liars. If not, just say the same as me and any other mere mortal.. that you are not sure. Or that it is unlikely.

There has to be some context here. Nobody knows that there statement was designed in any way to polarise the support. If it was, in my opinion it was already a late addition to what already a hugely split support. Iím indifferent when it comes to KT. I find him pleasant enough face to face, but I have worked with enough of his type to spot the direction and aim of his ambition. I stated that days after he took over. In fact I predicted this course of events. When I was on the trust board, I was adamant that we should have took a stand then about a seat on the board. But one thing is for sure, KT would not have needed to have prompted them to back him loyally. Sammo loves the guy. Graham Carr thinks his a decent chap too. So itís not inconceivable that the staff have gone out on a limb for him. Their statement is not a complete endorsement of his methods or ideas. It is just them saying that he is not what he his being portrayed to be by some. The Trust has made them feel that way. It is not down to any of us to tell them they are not allowed to be fed up, and further insult them by portraying them as nothing more than puppets. I am not defending KT, when I say they genuinely seem to love working for him. And I think that really sticks in the throat of those who donít like him.
When people tell me things in confidence they stay that way, as I said before you seem very taken with KT and constantly caveat your sentences with ďIím not defending KT,Ē your in denial, itís OK if you like him.
I not having a go at the club staff BTW think they do a good job.
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2021, 22:20:36 pm »

When people tell me things in confidence they stay that way, as I said before you seem very taken with KT and constantly caveat your sentences with ďIím not defending KT,Ē your in denial, itís OK if you like him.
I not having a go at the club staff BTW think they do a good job.

Didn't you say earlier that "you don't need proof" and now you say you've been told things "in confidence". I'm confused, surely if you've been told things in confidence you then have the proof  Huh?
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2021, 22:34:54 pm »

Didn't you say earlier that "you don't need proof" and now you say you've been told things "in confidence". I'm confused, surely if you've been told things in confidence you then have the proof  Huh?
Proof would need to be irrefutable, Iíd have needed to be there or CCTV evidence, just because someone tells me something doesnít make it proof.
Itís someoneís word against someone elseís.
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2021, 22:38:45 pm »

Proof would need to be irrefutable, Iíd have needed to be there or CCTV evidence, just because someone tells me something doesnít make it proof.
Itís someoneís word against someone elseís.

That's true mate. I'll leave it there now  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2021, 23:29:10 pm »

That's true mate. I'll leave it there now  Wink
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2021, 23:32:12 pm »

Proof would need to be irrefutable, Iíd have needed to be there or CCTV evidence, just because someone tells me something doesnít make it proof.
Itís someoneís word against someone elseís.
For me Manny there is real dilemma with this. If the club staff were coerced into this or it was not exactly as it says on the tin it would be a pointless exercise as it would come out and fairly rapidly. I also donít think it was necessary for them to try to divide the fan base over the Trust because I donít think it could be much worse given the conversations Iíve had, and Iím sure theyíve had similar.
On the other hand there is absolutely no way anyone in our business would post something as provocative as this on our website without authorisation. If they did it would be the first and last time. Letís not forget that what ever your view the Trust have had and may continue to have the ear of individuals within the council, so it has the potential to stir things up and influence to some extent. Whilst you must take people at their word and I have no reason or evidence to doubt them, I find it inconceivable that this would have taken place without prior knowledge or consent. Thatís not to say it didnít happen but if true and I were KT and DB I am wondering what they make of it? Put it this way, if our business were under attack and people were spreading malicious rumours about that were affecting moral of the staff and by definition their well being and possibly mental health then we would deal with it very differently and it certainly wouldnít end or even start with an open letter on our website, hence my earlier observations. I genuinely donít know what to think?
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« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2021, 05:48:11 am »

I don't personally know anyone on the Trust, I have not been involved and too far away, I can only provide an outsiders perspective away from the politics shall we say.

I met with Brian Lomax as a supporter many times and in no way would I criticise anyone trying to do the best for this club, especially those involved with the Trust however its clear there are now divisions between the club owners, trust, staff and supporters, which was absolutely not the intention.

To be viable and to have any real impact at the club the Trust needs to be well organised, well run but above all it needs financial clout, it needs to create money. Along with supporter backing a few entrepreneurs and forward thinking business minded people are needed but I'm not sure they are there.

Without money, and I don't mean to be rude the Trust is as effective in bringing change as a few pink haired lesbians chained to railings in Parliament Square, just a bit of noise. Frankly I'm staggered that in all this time the limit to their ambition is car boots and raffles, run correctly they could be offering money towards stadium projects or even helping finance players by now. Crucially this would bring them to the table when the future of the club is under discussion, exactly where they want to be.

I don't deny KT anything from this land as he is the only one currently wishing to develop it and ultimately to untangle the mess created by the council and Cardoza combined. He owns us, pays the wages and is doing what he can with limited wriggle room to ensure their funding is not wasted.

The Trust need to be more professional, dynamic, show ambition, create harmony and work with the owners not cause division or they really are just the beardies playing crib in the corner, sorry.
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« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2021, 09:46:52 am »

For me Manny there is real dilemma with this. If the club staff were coerced into this or it was not exactly as it says on the tin it would be a pointless exercise as it would come out and fairly rapidly. I also donít think it was necessary for them to try to divide the fan base over the Trust because I donít think it could be much worse given the conversations Iíve had, and Iím sure theyíve had similar.
On the other hand there is absolutely no way anyone in our business would post something as provocative as this on our website without authorisation. If they did it would be the first and last time. Letís not forget that what ever your view the Trust have had and may continue to have the ear of individuals within the council, so it has the potential to stir things up and influence to some extent. Whilst you must take people at their word and I have no reason or evidence to doubt them, I find it inconceivable that this would have taken place without prior knowledge or consent. Thatís not to say it didnít happen but if true and I were KT and DB I am wondering what they make of it? Put it this way, if our business were under attack and people were spreading malicious rumours about that were affecting moral of the staff and by definition their well being and possibly mental health then we would deal with it very differently and it certainly wouldnít end or even start with an open letter on our website, hence my earlier observations. I genuinely donít know what to think?

I think it is easy to try and compare this scenario to some large scale corporation where red tape would prevent a similar action, especially on the official website.
We saw the recent Brewdog publication on social media (from ex employees) which is extremely damaging for them and investors getting very twitchy. True, slightly different as that was out of their control.
Maybe people are getting a little wrapped up in the process of how it appeared. True, we don't know but....

- The staff (including senior members) co-ordinate the letter.
- They go to KT and vent their grievances, along with support for him personally and ask for his blessing to publish it, which he clearly did or there'll be some staff in trouble.

I think some maybe be alluding (but not actually saying) that KT effectively wrote the letter (or coerced them to write it) and got his staff to sign it!
The timing is a tad off considering events of last week but it could just be it needed the Trust to publicly (and effectively) severe ties with the club for the staff to come out fighting on some of the treatment they have read about or maybe suffered directly.
 
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« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2021, 09:56:25 am »

Without money, and I don't mean to be rude the Trust is as effective in bringing change as a few pink haired lesbians chained to railings in Parliament Square, just a bit of noise. Frankly I'm staggered that in all this time the limit to their ambition is car boots and raffles, run correctly they could be offering money towards stadium projects or even helping finance players by now. Crucially this would bring them to the table when the future of the club is under discussion, exactly where they want to be.

Is the New hotel end project being run by the trust? it would be pretty damning if something like that had chosen to circumvent the trust as by its nature it should be the logical group to spearhead an initiative like that.
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« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2021, 10:04:25 am »

I agree with some of this post and at the end of the day we are where we are. The issue I would have though is the seeming acceptance that we have to run at a loss of between 500k and £1m a year and are then grateful we have a Director covering those losses.
Yes, we all call for more money to be spent on the squad, a better pitch, new seats blah blah, all of which cost money, but perhaps this is where fans need to be more realistic too.

Some clubs make a small profit, some clubs make much bigger losses than we do.....football in general needs a "reset" to stop this from being the norm.

In what other business though would people not question the running of an operation which was turning in losses year in year out?

GPC really good post.

As for the question is the Trust lost - it appears from the outside that they are coming at KT & DB with something of an agenda from some parts of the board and want him out. Whether this is true or not I don't know but I do think they need a bit of a reset because after the staff letter I think a larger number of fans are going against them.

I do think we need a trust, I think every club does. However, that Trust needs to be able to work with the fan base and the clubs board and have a good a working relationship with the board as possible. Yes if they no of wrongdoing it must be highlighted to its members and also all other fans as early as possible. Unfortunately it is a very fine line a trust has to walk, as alienating the Club does not help them to be close enough to see if things are going wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong but the club was losing similar amounts when Cardoza was in charge so not much has changed there and maybe this is somewhere a trust working closely with the club can help, I have seen posts about a barrel of ale been sold and maybe this isn't too far from where we should be. I remember going into the Exeter Trust bar numerous times and that did very well and put money into the clubs coffers, things like that could reduce our losses as a club.

With KT and DB, yes I believe they are in it to make money from the land, why else would they be here. This is not necessarily a bad thing and as long as the trust is working closely with them then there will be more chances that some of the money from this land will filter its way to the club. I also agree they should have had the stand done as promised. It looks like maybe the New Hotel End is pushing them in this direction more now as it is since they came out with some ideas that we got the open day from the club.

So we as fans really need a club and a trust pulling in the same direction, if there are personality clashes then it would have to be the trust who would need to change those personalities as the club wont. The caveat on all of this being that if the trust are aware of wrongdoing they have to put it out there as fans need to know. The last thing we would want is another McRitchie or Cardoza situation.
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« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2021, 10:08:43 am »

Similarly good post Battery ManÖ.lots in there for people to think about.
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« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2021, 10:10:13 am »

Is the New hotel end project being run by the trust? it would be pretty damning if something like that had chosen to circumvent the trust as by its nature it should be the logical group to spearhead an initiative like that.

Tom Reed is one of the main "backers"

The same Tom Reed who recently tweeted the infamous Brian Lomax quote regarding not trusting "two-bit conmen"

Not the best idea if your looking for support from the current owners!
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« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2021, 10:21:34 am »

Trust Statement ref the Staff Letter

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/response-to-the-open-letter-from-northampton-town-fc?fbclid=IwAR1yG5xf1gS-ITjec5WKK5Nwj6WWPCOpnkAVeuwESuqml03sr99XB2fkzns
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« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2021, 10:24:11 am »

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/response-to-the-open-letter-from-northampton-town-fc

Credit where it is due, I think that is a very good reply from the Trust.
I sincerely hope that all parties can now draw a line under this and work together to find a common ground which can be positive.
The Trust rightly need to hold the owners to account and the Club need to engage with them in a more positive way. I think one thing everyone seems to agree on is that neither side have gone about this the right way.

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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2021, 10:51:29 am »


Good response.
It is always easy from the outside to pick up on something....the only thing missing is the offer to withdraw the membership of any members who are found to have publicly made any derogative comments as highlighted in the staffs grievance. It comes back to the 'two hats' situation but well within your rights to black ball Trust members who post personal abuse, if you are aware of it of course, although this may reduce your membership by quite a bit.  Grin
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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2021, 11:16:44 am »

That's difficult though as members of the Trust need to be free to have their own opinions, and as long as they don't cross any legal lines should continue to do so. People shouldn't be banned for having an opinion you don't like.
The same applies to a certain extent to the Trust board members as unless its from an official account, or is stated as being a Trust statement it is still just their opinion. Its a much more difficult situation though as there is a link back to the board and could be perceived in the wrong way, as has happened in the past.
Does the Trust have a social media policy for board members? If yes, might be worth reviewing, if not I suggest you write one.
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2021, 11:37:44 am »

The reply was not as explosive as I was expecting  Grin

What was said is pretty obvious, I would hope that the staff and supporters would already know what was said, although it appears many have forgotten.

The fact as the statement says, the Trust actually paid, in cash, staff wages to stop them leaving on the understanding KT would return the funds. (its not about the fans happy to pay wages from their donations - it is that KT failed (again) in his verbal agreements.)

The Trust does have an agenda - i think now it has at least two.

1. Be better prepared if and when the Cardoza situation arises again

2. Hold KT to account and have him inform us fans of what is happening at our club and whether we are actually ever going to move forward under their ownership

Sorry but the more I hear about these timelines and events the more of question KT's integrity. Again its not that I am anti-KT, I just want an owner who is interested in making NTFC the best it can be, given the resources available.


 
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