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The Trust, is it lost?

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BackOfTheNet
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« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2021, 11:38:06 am »

It's an adequate response but I think they've missed out two key points:

  • The lack of an apology. It doesn't have to be a gushing recanting of everything they've ever said or done, but a simple "we are sorry if our actions have made the club staff feel this way. It was never our intent to do so and if our words or actions have been misinterpreted then obviously we apologise for this."
  • The denial of "having an agenda" isn't enough. Look at the vast amount of comments from numerous people on here, on Twitter, on the club's Facebook page, various fan Facebook pages, even the Trust's own Facebook page, not to mention the letter from the staff itself - for some reason, an awful lot of people believe that the Trust DO have an agenda around fan ownership. This was the perfect opportunity to not only deny it (which they've done) but also to acknowledge that they will be working hard to make sure this was made clear in future communications as they have clearly failed to do so in the past.

I do think the Trust (or aspects of the Trust) lack the ability to be self-critical. If they showed a modicum of self-awareness in these things, I think there would be far few of us willing to be critical of the Trust as an entity.

Regardless of any denials, while it may not be the official party line, I still believe that there are elements within the Trust who personally are keen on fan ownership, and I think those individuals are undermining the efforts of everyone else, who as I've said on many occasions, I'm sure are working hard and with the best intentions.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 11:45:34 am by BackOfTheNet » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2021, 11:45:26 am »

As a former board member of the Trust here's my two penneth worth.

I think the club should have just answered the 25 questions in writing sent to them by the Trust - even if they didn't like a couple of them. A few questions were a bit 'loaded' so to speak but the owners should have thick enough skin to deal with that. This is also a compromise situation given the previous relationship breakdown, it's not going to be perfect. I do feel the majority of questions were fair to ask, and the cynic in me does question why they couldn't feel they could provide written answers. I don't know exactly why I think it, but it just doesn't sit right. If everything Kelvin has said about the East Stand at the open day comes to fruition then happy days, but I will only really believe it when I see it.

Despite them not getting the written answers, I personally would have still liked the Trust to take up the option of the open Zoom call and I would have just asked them the most pertinent of the 25 questions there. It would still have been answers on the record and we'd know more about what he was/wasn't willing to talk about. I'd like to know more about the thought process behind turning that down.

The above is a classic example of both sides being a bit stubborn - but I have to say the Trust seem to be getting the brunt of the criticism when I would say the situation was of equal making between the club and the Trust.

Unfortunately the difficulty here is that supporters also hold very stubborn views on the Trust that they never seem to let go. Having used to do comms for them back in the day I knew people who hated the Trust because of stuff that was done in the 90s when I was still in nappies and despite it being an entirely new board. The image now, whether fair or not, is that the Trust is anti-club and pro fan ownership. People nowadays more than ever seem more unwilling to ever change their mind, and they're going to have to work very hard to rectify that.

Onto the open letter from staff. Whatever your views are of KT on playing budgets, investments, the East Stand, 5USport ect, it cannot be denied that he is very clearly a good operator. If you speak to any staff member they have nothing but praise for him and they think he treats them well. In that respect, he's clearly a good owner. So I don't feel that it's likely that the club board put the staff up to doing this.

That said I would have liked to have seen more evidence that this anti-club rhetoric is rife in the whole Trust board rather than it being a couple of individuals acting of their own accord, which is certainly the impression I get though I'm happy to be proved wrong. Regardless of whether they like it or not, Trust board members are entitled to their own view - it doesn't mean that their views are that of the Trust board. I have never seen a Trust statement criticise the staff, so I also feel that if indeed it is just a couple of the board that made those posts then the open letter is a bit harsh on a number of people who I know are good people with the club at heart and have now been tarred with a particular brush. That said, the quoted posts in the open letter seemed very crass, and I would hope Trust board members are being advised on their use of social media.

With regards to the future - it's absolutely imperative that this club has a healthy supporters' trust. It's the body that people turn too, it's the original supporters' trust and we should be proud of it. It's only as healthy as its membership though.

There are as usual good ideas on here on how the Trust can be driven forward, but it requires people to do the work - and as a fanbase we are too happy to leave the same 10-12 people ticking the Trust over until the next crisis. I hope that some of the people who are coming up with these great ideas go to the Trust and offer their help, it would be a great way to start.
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« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2021, 11:48:27 am »

As a former board member of the Trust here's my two penneth worth.

I think the club should have just answered the 25 questions in writing sent to them by the Trust - even if they didn't like a couple of them. A few questions were a bit 'loaded' so to speak but the owners should have thick enough skin to deal with that. This is also a compromise situation given the previous relationship breakdown, it's not going to be perfect. I do feel the majority of questions were fair to ask, and the cynic in me does question why they couldn't feel they could provide written answers. I don't know exactly why I think it, but it just doesn't sit right. If everything Kelvin has said about the East Stand at the open day comes to fruition then happy days, but I will only really believe it when I see it.

Despite them not getting the written answers, I personally would have still liked the Trust to take up the option of the open Zoom call and I would have just asked them the most pertinent of the 25 questions there. It would still have been answers on the record and we'd know more about what he was/wasn't willing to talk about. I'd like to know more about the thought process behind turning that down.

The above is a classic example of both sides being a bit stubborn - but I have to say the Trust seem to be getting the brunt of the criticism when I would say the situation was of equal making between the club and the Trust.

Unfortunately the difficulty here is that supporters also hold very stubborn views on the Trust that they never seem to let go. Having used to do comms for them back in the day I knew people who hated the Trust because of stuff that was done in the 90s when I was still in nappies and despite it being an entirely new board. The image now, whether fair or not, is that the Trust is anti-club and pro fan ownership. People nowadays more than ever seem more unwilling to ever change their mind, and they're going to have to work very hard to rectify that.

Onto the open letter from staff. Whatever your views are of KT on playing budgets, investments, the East Stand, 5USport ect, it cannot be denied that he is very clearly a good operator. If you speak to any staff member they have nothing but praise for him and they think he treats them well. In that respect, he's clearly a good owner. So I don't feel that it's likely that the club board put the staff up to doing this.

That said I would have liked to have seen more evidence that this anti-club rhetoric is rife in the whole Trust board rather than it being a couple of individuals acting of their own accord, which is certainly the impression I get though I'm happy to be proved wrong. Regardless of whether they like it or not, Trust board members are entitled to their own view - it doesn't mean that their views are that of the Trust board. I have never seen a Trust statement criticise the staff, so I also feel that if indeed it is just a couple of the board that made those posts then the open letter is a bit harsh on a number of people who I know are good people with the club at heart and have now been tarred with a particular brush. That said, the quoted posts in the open letter seemed very crass, and I would hope Trust board members are being advised on their use of social media.

With regards to the future - it's absolutely imperative that this club has a healthy supporters' trust. It's the body that people turn too, it's the original supporters' trust and we should be proud of it. It's only as healthy as its membership though.

There are as usual good ideas on here on how the Trust can be driven forward, but it requires people to do the work - and as a fanbase we are too happy to leave the same 10-12 people ticking the Trust over until the next crisis. I hope that some of the people who are coming up with these great ideas go to the Trust and offer their help, it would be a great way to start.

A good, balanced post Fez.
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« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2021, 12:36:06 pm »

Tasty reply from the Trust, well done.
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« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2021, 12:45:29 pm »

A fairly bland reply but in my opinion absolutely correct so as not to inflame further a slightly ridiculous situation that could do lasting damage to the club and a potentially divided fanbase - perhaps also a cue for some of us on here to take a less polarised view.
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« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2021, 12:52:33 pm »

I was a board member for 5 years ago, until around 2-3 months ago. The reasons why I left will remain private and I wont get embroiled in the politics. Quite simply, I cannot be assed!

Essentially I could see this fall out coming from a mile away, I do have quite strong views as to why it has happened. I work with the club on projects with my business and quite frankly, I did not want my own personal views bundled in with a collective view point (Trust). There are a number of people involved with the trust and its always going to be very challenging to find a common view point, back in the DC days (end of) it was easy but I think its fair to say its subjective as things stand.

Backofthenet touches on a point that I felt very strongly about for a long while. In that some individual trust directors and associates would post on social media their own view points and often they would then directly be associated with the Trusts collective viewpoint. This fall out has in my opinion, mainly been caused by that. Some will agree, some will disagree with this. But that's my own personal opinion. I have refrained for a long time now not to share my personal views on off the pitch topics either on here or on social media because I felt it would put the Trust in a difficult position. I will continue that, because I have the upmost respect for my ex trust colleagues and also the staff I work with at the football club. Many of these view points are subjective and will generate debate, often negative. So essentially for the Trust and Club to work together effectively they need to keep their opinions on each other private until a point if damming evidence of wrong doing surfaces...this of course works both ways.

Personally, until this stops I think the divide will widen. Ultimately the guys on the Trust are all passionate and committed supporters, and work hard to hold the club to account. However, the way some of their social media (in particular) posts come across often stirs things up unnecessarily. Again, in my opinion. Its a very difficult balance to find, stopping freedom of speech is a big negative, however, in the role of a trust director I believe there comes a point where you need to refrain yourself from publicly engaging in topics that are very sensitive relating to the football club.

Along the way, so much has been wrongly interpreted, been read out of context etc. Look at footballers themselves, and other 'celebrities'. Social media is great for many reasons but it has its downfalls. I also believe that the Trust should now take firm action and anyone who represents it should be far more careful as to what they tweet, put on facebook, post on here etc. Sadly or not, it goes with the territory.
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« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2021, 13:08:30 pm »

I was a board member for 5 years ago, until around 2-3 months ago. The reasons why I left will remain private and I wont get embroiled in the politics. Quite simply, I cannot be assed!

Essentially I could see this fall out coming from a mile away, I do have quite strong views as to why it has happened. I work with the club on projects with my business and quite frankly, I did not want my own personal views bundled in with a collective view point (Trust). There are a number of people involved with the trust and its always going to be very challenging to find a common view point, back in the DC days (end of) it was easy but I think its fair to say its subjective as things stand.

Backofthenet touches on a point that I felt very strongly about for a long while. In that some individual trust directors and associates would post on social media their own view points and often they would then directly be associated with the Trusts collective viewpoint. This fall out has in my opinion, mainly been caused by that. Some will agree, some will disagree with this. But that's my own personal opinion. I have refrained for a long time now not to share my personal views on off the pitch topics either on here or on social media because I felt it would put the Trust in a difficult position. I will continue that, because I have the upmost respect for my ex trust colleagues and also the staff I work with at the football club. Many of these view points are subjective and will generate debate, often negative. So essentially for the Trust and Club to work together effectively they need to keep their opinions on each other private until a point if damming evidence of wrong doing surfaces...this of course works both ways.

Personally, until this stops I think the divide will widen. Ultimately the guys on the Trust are all passionate and committed supporters, and work hard to hold the club to account. However, the way some of their social media (in particular) posts come across often stirs things up unnecessarily. Again, in my opinion. Its a very difficult balance to find, stopping freedom of speech is a big negative, however, in the role of a trust director I believe there comes a point where you need to refrain yourself from publicly engaging in topics that are very sensitive relating to the football club.

Along the way, so much has been wrongly interpreted, been read out of context etc. Look at footballers themselves, and other 'celebrities'. Social media is great for many reasons but it has its downfalls. I also believe that the Trust should now take firm action and anyone who represents it should be far more careful as to what they tweet, put on facebook, post on here etc. Sadly or not, it goes with the territory.

Sorry to hear you've left the board Drilling. Those points about social media are very pertinent. I know from my own experience that it was such a difficult balancing act between trying to correct assertions about the Trust when they are blatantly incorrect but also trying not to come across as 'holier than though' or appear that you feel you are immune from fair criticism.

I think it would help if everyone on all sides stopped and calmed down a bit, hopefully that Trust response will achieve that as I think it was pretty well measured. Like a lot of things at the moment it seems like you have to pick a camp and stick with it to the bitter end. In reality it's more complex than that.
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« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2021, 13:13:31 pm »

+1
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« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2021, 14:25:27 pm »

It's an adequate response but I think they've missed out two key points:

  • The lack of an apology. It doesn't have to be a gushing recanting of everything they've ever said or done, but a simple "we are sorry if our actions have made the club staff feel this way. It was never our intent to do so and if our words or actions have been misinterpreted then obviously we apologise for this."
  • The denial of "having an agenda" isn't enough. Look at the vast amount of comments from numerous people on here, on Twitter, on the club's Facebook page, various fan Facebook pages, even the Trust's own Facebook page, not to mention the letter from the staff itself - for some reason, an awful lot of people believe that the Trust DO have an agenda around fan ownership. This was the perfect opportunity to not only deny it (which they've done) but also to acknowledge that they will be working hard to make sure this was made clear in future communications as they have clearly failed to do so in the past.

I do think the Trust (or aspects of the Trust) lack the ability to be self-critical. If they showed a modicum of self-awareness in these things, I think there would be far few of us willing to be critical of the Trust as an entity.

Regardless of any denials, while it may not be the official party line, I still believe that there are elements within the Trust who personally are keen on fan ownership, and I think those individuals are undermining the efforts of everyone else, who as I've said on many occasions, I'm sure are working hard and with the best intentions.

Agree...
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« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2021, 14:32:01 pm »

Nice insights from Fez and Drilling.
I think it is clearly a complex backdrop and the musings on here probably mean nothing in the scale of things. It does appear that some of the forthright opinions come from either bitter (and maybe envious) ex-Trust members, non-Trust members, or the polarized masses on either side. The debate on the responsibilities of individuals and their personal views clashing is definitely interesting. Surely anyone of real influence on the Trust shouldn't be posting 'personal' comments, certainly not abuse and even opposing views to the Trust on public forums. That is pretty much common sense and only going to lead to issues for any organisation. Granted, it is impossible (and not right) to try and filter the common Trust member and we all read the unfiltered bile on social media every day.
Hopefully the club will provide the specific instances and those people can either reflect and take a look at their words and maybe apologise if appropriate, before redeveloping a working relationship.
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« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2021, 14:37:44 pm »

Nice insights from Fez and Drilling.
I think it is clearly a complex backdrop and the musings on here probably mean nothing in the scale of things. It does appear that some of the forthright opinions come from either bitter (and maybe envious) ex-Trust members, non-Trust members, or the polarized masses on either side. The debate on the responsibilities of individuals and their personal views clashing is definitely interesting. Surely anyone of real influence on the Trust shouldn't be posting 'personal' comments, certainly not abuse and even opposing views to the Trust on public forums. That falls beneath That is pretty much common sense and only going to lead to issues for any organisation. Granted, it is impossible (and not right) to try and filter the common Trust member and we all read the unfiltered bile on social media every day.
Hopefully the club will provide the specific instances and those people can either reflect and take a look at their words and maybe apologise if appropriate, before redeveloping a working relationship.
Completely agree and apologies should be offered if appropriate.
However this has played into KTs playbook of spin, not sure how much ice it will cut with the council though, as I said previously I wouldnít trust him as far  as I could throw him.
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« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2021, 14:51:09 pm »

Completely agree and apologies should be offered if appropriate.
However this has played into KTs playbook of spin, not sure how much ice it will cut with the council though, as I said previously I wouldnít trust him as far  as I could throw him.

MW - obviously you are your own man with your own opinions but it seems your posts of late start with a consolatory tone but always end with a However and subsequently have a dig at KT - we do know your views on this - donít you think there is perhaps a case to draw breath keeping ones powder dry until a point later in the year if nothing has happened?
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« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2021, 15:30:18 pm »

MW - obviously you are your own man with your own opinions but it seems your posts of late start with a consolatory tone but always end with a However and subsequently have a dig at KT - we do know your views on this - donít you think there is perhaps a case to draw breath keeping ones powder dry until a point later in the year if nothing has happened?
Totally agree.

I am sure KT takes no notice of MW and his repetative criticisms, especially his statements that the land is worth a laughable £100 million, with no proof, as usual!!!

Speaking to a couple of local Land Agents they think hie opinion is 'up with the fairies'.

Try using facts Manwork!
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« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2021, 18:14:03 pm »

When people tell me things in confidence they stay that way, as I said before you seem very taken with KT and constantly caveat your sentences with ďIím not defending KT,Ē your in denial, itís OK if you like him.
I not having a go at the club staff BTW think they do a good job.

A lot of us get told things in confidence. My remarks were specifically around the club staff though. As I said, itís all well and good finding it difficult to believe that they did it without KT knowing, even to me. But to sell as a fact, as you did is wrong. You simply don't know the truth about a lot of things. Until you do, do as I and others do and keep your counsel. It is not like you at all. And is an unwelcome recent thing in your posts.

As for you childish Trust like snipe about me and KT. Youíll have to buck your current trend and post evidence of that. Or join the long line of others, who havenít managed it yet. I will be more than happy to jump on the bandwagon once I see some evidence of the infamous ďoil and truthĒ or your much heralded big news. In the meantime, I'm still on the fence  Grin Grin
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« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2021, 19:14:57 pm »

Do you know what, from the recent posts you could interpret that there is some discord within the board of the Trust, you could interpret that some are more powerful than others. Alternatively you could interpret that there is a collective hidden agenda, the list is endless. To repetitively bang the same drum, if you have the mandate of the majority of the membership and support base all of this goes away, all of it. Donít cover this with a veneer of its a 2 way street, take the initiative and get it. Sorry but for me itís that simple. That aside, the Trust must continue, IMO its an organisation to be proud of thatís temporarily lost its way a bit.
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« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2021, 19:27:18 pm »

A lot of us get told things in confidence. My remarks were specifically around the club staff though. As I said, itís all well and good finding it difficult to believe that they did it without KT knowing, even to me. But to sell as a fact, as you did is wrong. You simply don't know the truth about a lot of things. Until you do, do as I and others do and keep your counsel. It is not like you at all. And is an unwelcome recent thing in your posts.

As for you childish Trust like snipe about me and KT. Youíll have to buck your current trend and post evidence of that. Or join the long line of others, who havenít managed it yet. I will be more than happy to jump on the bandwagon once I see some evidence of the infamous ďoil and truthĒ or your much heralded big news. In the meantime, I'm still on the fence  Grin Grin
Iím not getting the splinters out 😀
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« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2021, 19:30:15 pm »

MW - obviously you are your own man with your own opinions but it seems your posts of late start with a consolatory tone but always end with a However and subsequently have a dig at KT - we do know your views on this - donít you think there is perhaps a case to draw breath keeping ones powder dry until a point later in the year if nothing has happened?
Iím actually looking at the bigger picture, whatís happening with the surplus cash after loans have been paid back.
I take your point about waiting.
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« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2021, 19:54:24 pm »

Looking from the outside it appears as though there is conflict within the Trust. Several long term board members seem to have stood down, why is this? A power struggle? A conflict of interest? or a feeling of impotence, that the Trust is now on the margins with very little influence?

If it is the latter that's sad, because if the Club as a whole is to move forward on and off the pitch, it needs the Owners, Management, Staff, Players, Trust and wider support base to have a sense of unity. We certainly had that briefly during the 2015/16 season, all of us felt unbeatable. That's what positive thought can achieve, arguing will get us nowhere.
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« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2021, 20:09:38 pm »

Do you know what, from the recent posts you could interpret that there is some discord within the board of the Trust, you could interpret that some are more powerful than others. Alternatively you could interpret that there is a collective hidden agenda, the list is endless. To repetitively bang the same drum, if you have the mandate of the majority of the membership and support base all of this goes away, all of it. Don’t cover this with a veneer of its a 2 way street, take the initiative and get it. Sorry but for me it’s that simple. That aside, the Trust must continue, IMO its an organisation to be proud of that’s temporarily lost its way a bit.

I think that sums it up very well. Until such time as the Trust board proactively poll the membership on important issues before acting it will always seem that the board has it's own agenda that it does not wish to share.
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« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2021, 20:19:31 pm »

I have posted these before, and I will again.....

Trust members polled on issues.....(February 2021)

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/trust-members-vote-on-football-conversation-survey


Wider Northampton football public polled on the same issues....(March 2021)

https://www.ntfctrust.co.uk/news/article/public-vote-backs-football-reform


888 respondents in total...... is this not "proactively polling"?
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