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New Trust statement on club finances

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« Reply #320 on: July 08, 2021, 11:45:01 am »

Can I also ask someone with an accounting background, is it correct that in the unlikely scenario they took the payment from 5U Sport and they jogged on, there would be a tax liability to pay. Even at a reduced rate this would still be a significant sum on 6.75 million. However, if they used it to pay down the loan they would have had zero liability. Seems like a rather expensive secret to me and I’m still not sure what purpose it serves?
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« Reply #321 on: July 08, 2021, 11:57:18 am »

Can I also ask someone with an accounting background, is it correct that in the unlikely scenario they took the payment from 5U Sport and they jogged on, there would be a tax liability to pay. Even at a reduced rate this would still be a significant sum on 6.75 million. However, if they used it to pay down the loan they would have had zero liability. Seems like a rather expensive secret to me and I’m still not sure what purpose it serves?

If you had moved all the money off to the BVI would there be any tax liability to pay?
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« Reply #322 on: July 08, 2021, 12:10:23 pm »

Why is it in the owners favour?
The club will have the new East Stand including the 'facilities' and subsequent income from them.
The club will have income from whatever the deal percentage of the profit is agreed with the council regarding the land, be that from the initial sales/build or the subsequent leasing.
The club owns that percentage, the current 'owners' manage it on behalf of the club.
To be honest, I don't see where the problem is, unless certain people believe that the owners will run off with the funds/percentage once it's all completed, which would be illegal wouldn't it, because it belongs to the club?

Cause they have control of the transaction and the club. They could as it stands walk away with all the profit leaving the club with a uninspiring east stand.
Agreed - paid for by the land deal not by the generosity of the current owners
Agreed - and that is what should be clearly defined before the deal on the land is finalised so it can not be manipulated. Look I’m happy that they profit out of the transaction but so should the club and I don’t see why that cant be pre determined.
Let’s face it KT and DB are here for the profit and not for the love of the club. The trust are only in existence for the love of the club. They quite rightly just want some clarity as do I on what the club is left with aside from the east stand post the development.
They can draw the profits sell the club and walk away leaving the club back we’re it started with a completed east stand.
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« Reply #323 on: July 08, 2021, 12:11:33 pm »

Can I also ask someone with an accounting background, is it correct that in the unlikely scenario they took the payment from 5U Sport and they jogged on, there would be a tax liability to pay. Even at a reduced rate this would still be a significant sum on 6.75 million. However, if they used it to pay down the loan they would have had zero liability. Seems like a rather expensive secret to me and I’m still not sure what purpose it serves?
It all went offshore allegedly 🕵️‍♂️
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« Reply #324 on: July 08, 2021, 12:17:07 pm »

That's the 64 million dollar question. The council dont want to get it wrong again. I suspect the one thing every single supporter of NTFC is in agreement over is that the club needs to significantly benefit from the deal.
In this instance, what's your particular definition of significant DC?

I haven't used the word significant?
If you meant substantial, I would class substantial debt as being that which is not manageable, similar to the increasing debt we have at the moment that is not matched by the income.

Why does 'the club need to significantly benefit from the deal'? (your words)
The club needs to be in a position where it is financially sustainable and self sufficient in order to have an even balance at the end of each financial year and not be in debt to anyone.  
At the going rate, that appears to be an outlay of circa £1m+ above current income that has to be covered annually?
If that includes the purchasing of 'extras', like players and the infrastructure maintenance and improvement, all the better, but the cloth must be cut accordingly or we will soon be once again into the position we are at the moment?
  
Isn't that the rules of basic accounting whether you are dealing with your household budget or with a multi million pound organisation, that your outgoing should not exceed the incoming, or face the consequences?
That may mean that we stagnate in League Two, or do we once again go into debt in pursuit of the 'promised land' of League One or even the Championship at the expense of financial stability?
People need to understand that, when demanding that a certain level of player is purchased or their wages are paid, that it has to come from the break even budget at the end of the financial year and not from an increasing debt that isn't manageable.

Will we have enough income to sustain that promotion, I don't pretend to know, it all will depend on the council land deal/percentages and the income we achieve from the other saleable/rental facilities/resources we have. 
The 'bean counters' will be able to answer these questions when the time comes, but at this moment it will be nothing more that a 'wet finger'.
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« Reply #325 on: July 08, 2021, 12:20:05 pm »

If you had moved all the money off to the BVI would there be any tax liability to pay?
Not my area of expertise but I would imagine it would need to be paid directly there to circumvent the liability in a given sovereignty. If that’s true it gives rise to the added complication that you need to tell 5U Sport to pay their 6.75 million directly into a BVi account to secure the deal. I don’t know how you think people with 6.75 million on the hip operate GPC but I can assure you it is with considerable caution. Unless of course you happen to be NBC. The easiest way to view this is to think about what you would do if it were your money? The enormity of what’s being suggested here just makes it all a bit unlikely as far as I am concerned.

I should also point out that I am taxed on my global income in Oz, the ATO couldn’t give a toss what off shore account I have squirrelled my loot away to. To the best of my knowledge every tax body works pretty much to the same principles. I keep saying it and no one seems to take it on board, this idea that you can legitimately dodge liability or any declaration of income by rinsing money through off shore accounts is b0ll0cks. I would guess I am one of the few people on here who is in this position and able to comment with a degree of experience and to repeat its b0ll0cks. Now if your suggesting it’s not legitimate then that is a very different proposition, but I would take caution before embarking down that road if I were you.
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« Reply #326 on: July 08, 2021, 12:22:58 pm »

It all went offshore allegedly ️‍♂️


Maybe, but I haven't seen or read of any evidence to suggest that that has happened, aside from your own unsubstantiated allegations?
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« Reply #327 on: July 08, 2021, 12:41:06 pm »

Maybe, but I haven't seen or read of any evidence to suggest that that has happened, aside from your own unsubstantiated allegations?
I have to correct you there, I am repeating the Trusts allegations, none of these are my own, which I have clearly stated in all my posts.
Have you actually read the Trusts statement?
I have a question for you, Melly and the Hamster, Why would the Trust cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
Because the club are getting a good deal? Because they don’t like Kelvin?

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« Reply #328 on: July 08, 2021, 12:43:57 pm »

I have to correct you there, I am repeating the Trusts allegations, none of these are my own, which I have clearly stated in all my posts.
Have you actually read the Trusts statement?
I have a question for you, Melly and the Hamster, Why would the Trust cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
Because the club are getting a good deal? Because they don’t like Kelvin?


No idea Manny, Im just putting my opinion forward on what I see. I might well be wrong.
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« Reply #329 on: July 08, 2021, 12:46:36 pm »

KT and DB buy NTFC and 'acquire' the surrounding land.
They build the east stand and generally improve the infrastructure including executive seating to attract business and some form of non match day revenue.
The club become established in League and remain there for 3-4 years instead of yo'yo ing and start creeping towards the top of the table.
KT and DB make money from the land development
They sell the club for a profit (or even £1) to someone who has the resources to push us towards the top of L1 and into the Championships.

KT & DB make a load of money, NTFC get improved infrastructure and play at a high level consistently.

There's a lot of hypotheticals in there but it seems that the bit people dont like is the highlighted bit. Or am I misrepresenting?

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« Reply #330 on: July 08, 2021, 12:47:30 pm »

I have to correct you there, I am repeating the Trusts allegations, none of these are my own, which I have clearly stated in all my posts.
Have you actually read the Trusts statement?
I have a question for you, Melly and the Hamster, Why would the Trust cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
Because the club are getting a good deal? Because they don’t like Kelvin?


because they refuse a zoom call to discuss the points so can only go on their own assumptions which may or may not be wrong.
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« Reply #331 on: July 08, 2021, 12:48:47 pm »

The 5U thing goes back to the filing history.

They (5U) acquired the shares of NT Ventures in two transactions, in June and September 2017.

NT Ventures were the company that owned the shares in NTFC.

Fantastical Limited were the UK registered company that "owned" NT Ventures

No filings were made in the records of Fantastical Limited either for 2017 or 2018, it remained a "dormant company"

BDJ did not become the majority shareholder in NT Ventures until March 2018 so in theory it had nothing to do with NTFC, Ventures or Fantastical at the time the shares were sold.

This is all readily available information at Companies House.
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« Reply #332 on: July 08, 2021, 13:17:01 pm »

The 5U thing goes back to the filing history.

They (5U) acquired the shares of NT Ventures in two transactions, in June and September 2017.

NT Ventures were the company that owned the shares in NTFC.

Fantastical Limited were the UK registered company that "owned" NT Ventures

No filings were made in the records of Fantastical Limited either for 2017 or 2018, it remained a "dormant company"

BDJ did not become the majority shareholder in NT Ventures until March 2018 so in theory it had nothing to do with NTFC, Ventures or Fantastical at the time the shares were sold.

This is all readily available information at Companies House.

Has it harmed the football club? 
If so when, where and how? Facts, not theoretical guesses.
Is/was it criminal or have legal implication?
If so, it should be reported to the relevant authority for investigation.  I do not consider the national media to be a 'relevant authority'.  (That is a statement not an allegation)
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« Reply #333 on: July 08, 2021, 13:31:00 pm »

I have to correct you there, I am repeating the Trusts allegations, none of these are my own, which I have clearly stated in all my posts.
Have you actually read the Trusts statement?
I have a question for you, Melly and the Hamster, Why would the Trust cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
Because the club are getting a good deal? Because they don’t like Kelvin?


I said evidence. I have read The Trust Boards allegations.  Again, I said evidence.
There has been no evidence that I have seen or read to substantiate anything that has been said or alleged.
Why do you repeat unsubstantiated allegations? Do you not have any thoughts of your own?

I have no idea why The Trust Board cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
That is a question that can only be answered by The Trust Board, who do not appear to have answered.

Everything that I write and comment is my opinion from information that I have gained from the various discussions and information that has been provided either on here, on The Trust website or from my own inquisitive mind.  Nothing else. 
If people, as it appears, are getting uncomfortable with my comments and questions, you might want to ask yourself why?
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« Reply #334 on: July 08, 2021, 15:28:36 pm »

I haven't used the word significant?
If you meant substantial, I would class substantial debt as being that which is not manageable, similar to the increasing debt we have at the moment that is not matched by the income.

Why does 'the club need to significantly benefit from the deal'? (your words)
The club needs to be in a position where it is financially sustainable and self sufficient in order to have an even balance at the end of each financial year and not be in debt to anyone.  
At the going rate, that appears to be an outlay of circa £1m+ above current income that has to be covered annually?
If that includes the purchasing of 'extras', like players and the infrastructure maintenance and improvement, all the better, but the cloth must be cut accordingly or we will soon be once again into the position we are at the moment?
  
Isn't that the rules of basic accounting whether you are dealing with your household budget or with a multi million pound organisation, that your outgoing should not exceed the incoming, or face the consequences?
That may mean that we stagnate in League Two, or do we once again go into debt in pursuit of the 'promised land' of League One or even the Championship at the expense of financial stability?
People need to understand that, when demanding that a certain level of player is purchased or their wages are paid, that it has to come from the break even budget at the end of the financial year and not from an increasing debt that isn't manageable.

Will we have enough income to sustain that promotion, I don't pretend to know, it all will depend on the council land deal/percentages and the income we achieve from the other saleable/rental facilities/resources we have. 
The 'bean counters' will be able to answer these questions when the time comes, but at this moment it will be nothing more that a 'wet finger'.
It was me that used the word significant DC apols if it read otherwise.
I assumed that everyone would want the club to significantly benefit for the reasons you state. If it doesnt where will we be 8n another 6 years?
I dont think 200 extra seats some boxes and some facilities (why isn't there more transparency in that last phrase, I wonder?) will significantly increase the clubs turnover in order for us to tread water as a club let alone grow, though. I also think that the notion that our owners are going to leave us with a nice little nest egg if/when they go is hugely doubtful. It's their business (but our club) why would they do anything more altruistic than simply clear club debts unless there is a legally binding agreement do so.
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« Reply #335 on: July 08, 2021, 16:11:49 pm »

It was me that used the word significant DC apols if it read otherwise.
I assumed that everyone would want the club to significantly benefit for the reasons you state. If it doesnt where will we be 8n another 6 years?
I dont think 200 extra seats some boxes and some facilities (why isn't there more transparency in that last phrase, I wonder?) will significantly increase the clubs turnover in order for us to tread water as a club let alone grow, though. I also think that the notion that our owners are going to leave us with a nice little nest egg if/when they go is hugely doubtful. It's their business (but our club) why would they do anything more altruistic than simply clear club debts unless there is a legally binding agreement do so.


Your last sentence sums it up, they have no obligation to provide anything more than that.
The council land deal is crucial to the whole business, for which the council have the lead.
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« Reply #336 on: July 08, 2021, 16:18:13 pm »

It was me that used the word significant DC apols if it read otherwise.
I assumed that everyone would want the club to significantly benefit for the reasons you state. If it doesnt where will we be 8n another 6 years?
I dont think 200 extra seats some boxes and some facilities (why isn't there more transparency in that last phrase, I wonder?) will significantly increase the clubs turnover in order for us to tread water as a club let alone grow, though. I also think that the notion that our owners are going to leave us with a nice little nest egg if/when they go is hugely doubtful. It's their business (but our club) why would they do anything more altruistic than simply clear club debts unless there is a legally binding agreement do so.
.

Maybe there is still a hangover from Cardoza promising a hotel, plush facilities and probably a theme park at some point.
I don't remember some land grab really being a hot topic for huge benefits to the club. i.e. does/did anyone think that £100m (not my figure) was going to be handed over and put on our balance sheet. I'd hope not!
Any hope of major development was shattered when Dozy released those cartoons with blind spots and portakabins on stilts.
If we have a finished stand and are left debt free, it's about the best we can hope for. The fact that they don't want to increase the cost by levelling it and building something a lot better pretty much shows their hand.
Then once KT and co have inevitably sailed into the sunset supporters can start moaning about the next chairman and where to spend his money.

Thinking back how many popular chairmen have we had? I'm sure any chairman is more popular when it's going well on the pitch, i.e. not that often for us!
I remember Con Wilson, Underwood, Tobacco man Banks, Stonhill, Ellis, Dozy.

Maybe a better (financially) run business model wouldn't generate these levels of debt, especially if the formula on the pitch and behind the scenes is right. Producing more sales like Charlie Goode, a cup runs and youth development. If you are selling out every week (including whatever corporate) I am sure any astute businessman would invest and expand accordingly. That aside, it is extremely difficult to run any football club on an even keel. The top Prem clubs are tens/hundreds of millions in debt.
Get success on the pitch and fans don't really worry about the bottom line.
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« Reply #337 on: July 08, 2021, 16:35:36 pm »

Maybe there is still a hangover from Cardoza promising a hotel, plush facilities and probably a theme park at some point.
I don't remember some land grab really being a hot topic for huge benefits to the club. i.e. does/did anyone think that £100m (not my figure) was going to be handed over and put on our balance sheet. I'd hope not!
Any hope of major development was shattered when Dozy released those cartoons with blind spots and portakabins on stilts.
If we have a finished stand and are left debt free, it's about the best we can hope for. The fact that they don't want to increase the cost by levelling it and building something a lot better pretty much shows their hand.
Then once KT and co have inevitably sailed into the sunset supporters can start moaning about the next chairman and where to spend his money.

Thinking back how many popular chairmen have we had? I'm sure any chairman is more popular when it's going well on the pitch, i.e. not that often for us!
I remember Con Wilson, Underwood, Tobacco man Banks, Stonhill, Ellis, Dozy.

Maybe a better (financially) run business model wouldn't generate these levels of debt, especially if the formula on the pitch and behind the scenes is right. Producing more sales like Charlie Goode, a cup runs and youth development. If you are selling out every week (including whatever corporate) I am sure any astute businessman would invest and expand accordingly. That aside, it is extremely difficult to run any football club on an even keel. The top Prem clubs are tens/hundreds of millions in debt.
Get success on the pitch and fans don't really worry about the bottom line.

The point of all this is it’s a one off opportunity with the land, the question is as a supporter do you want two individuals to sail into the sunset with all the profit leaving the club with a shíty little stand and no debt?
REMEMBER THERE WAS VERY LITTLE DEBT WHEN THEY TOOK OVER.
OR do you want a transparent process where everyone gets their fair share!
OUR OWNERS REFUSE TO ANSWER QUESTION ABOUT THE CLUBS SHARE OF THE DEAL.
WHATS IN IT FOR NTFC
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« Reply #338 on: July 08, 2021, 16:39:45 pm »

I said evidence. I have read The Trust Boards allegations.  Again, I said evidence.
There has been no evidence that I have seen or read to substantiate anything that has been said or alleged.
Why do you repeat unsubstantiated allegations? Do you not have any thoughts of your own?

I have no idea why The Trust Board cause all this aggravation for themselves and the owners?
That is a question that can only be answered by The Trust Board, who do not appear to have answered.

Everything that I write and comment is my opinion from information that I have gained from the various discussions and information that has been provided either on here, on The Trust website or from my own inquisitive mind.  Nothing else. 
If people, as it appears, are getting uncomfortable with my comments and questions, you might want to ask yourself why?
FFS do you think they made it all up?
They have evidenced the transactions.
Please outline any unsubstantiated allegations? KT would issue legal action against the individuals if they were not true.
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« Reply #339 on: July 08, 2021, 16:53:55 pm »

FFS do you think they made it all up?
They have evidenced the transactions.
Please outline any unsubstantiated allegations? KT would issue legal action against the individuals if they were not true.

Are you shouting and stamping your feet?  Grin
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