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New Trust statement on club finances

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« Reply #380 on: July 16, 2021, 09:01:42 am »

May i suggest you read the statement again, as the words you use above are not part of accusations, they are generally comments / thoughts / analysis of the situation.

"as we understand it" talks about the accounts. They don't have access to any accounts other than those published with Companies House, which have minimal information on them. The club never published the details of the Charlie Goode deal but around £1m was mooted.

Do you think that the Trust should not comment about the financial situation at the football club?
Yes, based on fact, not assumption. They had opportunity to ask in person and declined.
Do you think that the Trust should not ask questions about ownership, multi-million pound deals & Chinese monies?
Yes, based on fact, not assumption. They had opportunity to ask in person and declined.
More importantly....

Do you think that the Trust should not put pressure on owners that have overseen another relegation, have loaded the club with £6m of debt with zero increase in assets?
Yes, and as per a previous comment the 'noise' created by the poor statements impact their ability to ask serious questions.
Do you think that the Trust should not ask the owners, that 6 years after promising to build the East stand using their £4m, exactly what the £3m East stand will actually consist of and when will we see actual plans?
To a certain extent yes. This is where the balance needs to be agreed. Dont know why we need actual plans, but do need more than has been put up by the club
Do you think that the Trust should not question the integrity and motives of our owners after a history of broken promises and operating through shrouded secrecy of off-shore holdings and bank accounts?
Yes, based on facts, had the opportunity to ask... again comment on level of transparency. Need more from the club but I think they Trust expect too much
They're assumptions. Not accusations.

Its good to talk
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« Reply #381 on: July 16, 2021, 10:28:09 am »

Thanks for your reply Woody

What bit is not fact?

The £6m debt is a FACT

The money received from the Chinese and the shareholding / movements is a FACT

They have asked these questions in person but no received straight answers

So after 6 years and continued poor, disrespectful treatment of the supporters Trust, they finally start to publicly questioned the owners.

Needing actual plans to see what is actually planned, how much it will cost, especially as tax payers are paying for it and most importantly - it might show they are actually serious on getting it built !!!

This is history repeating itself, Cardoza spent years lobbying the council to develop but never submitted a planning application, KT has done exactly the same.
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« Reply #382 on: July 16, 2021, 12:21:13 pm »


Needing actual plans to see what is actually planned, how much it will cost, especially as tax payers are paying for it and most importantly - it might show they are actually serious on getting it built !!!

This is history repeating itself, Cardoza spent years lobbying the council to develop but never submitted a planning application, KT has done exactly the same.


Cardoza did submit a few planning applications. As they are still using the existing footprint but looking at adding extra boxes they do not need to submit further fresh planning applications. DCs scaled down version only had boxes in the centre.

http://planning.northamptonboroughcouncil.com/planning/search-applications?civica.query.FullTextSearch=Sixfields%20#VIEW?RefType=PBDC&KeyNo=28640

http://planning.northamptonboroughcouncil.com/planning/search-applications?civica.query.FullTextSearch=Sixfields%20stadium#VIEW?RefType=PBDC&KeyNo=29050

http://planning.northamptonboroughcouncil.com/planning/search-applications?civica.query.FullTextSearch=Sixfields%20stadium#VIEW?RefType=PBDC&KeyNo=25524
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« Reply #383 on: July 16, 2021, 12:56:03 pm »


Cardoza did submit a few planning applications.


...including one for his house, which never got finished either.  Grin
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« Reply #384 on: July 16, 2021, 13:20:14 pm »

sorry Zen yes he obviously did apply for permission eventually

the point i was making was that Cardoza took over in 2003 and the planning application was 10 years later !!!

Its now been another 6 years and no further planning applications or changes, just some basic released cgi's

Just the same lobbying of fans and the council that they need to support a development that just doesn't add up to a great deal for NTFC and the people of Northampton (especially as we don't have many details)


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« Reply #385 on: July 16, 2021, 17:43:31 pm »


Do you think the land deal suggested by the club is acceptable?


I honestly don’t think anything I could say or do would shift anybody’s perspective. As I have said before. I would watch them if they played on the Racecourse. I'd probably like to see the East stand sorted soon. But I can honestly say, it’s not even registered much above a whimper in my head. If it’s like that in ten years, I’ll be more grateful that I got another ten years above anything else. Wouldn’t be worrying about Sixfields.

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« Reply #386 on: July 16, 2021, 17:46:48 pm »

I honestly don’t think anything I could say or do would shift anybody’s perspective. As I have said before. I would watch them if they played on the Racecourse. I'd probably like to see the East stand sorted soon. But I can honestly say, it’s not even registered much above a whimper in my head. If it’s like that in ten years, I’ll be more grateful that I got another ten years above anything else. Wouldn’t be worrying about Sixfields.


That reply has made me smile and chuckle….

You should be a politician  Grin
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« Reply #387 on: July 16, 2021, 20:37:07 pm »

That reply has made me smile and chuckle….

You should be a politician  Grin

😀😀 I’ve never voted mate..

I'm genuinely excited about the new season. Hopefully we can bury all the embarrassing off pitch activity and concentrate on the football.
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« Reply #388 on: July 17, 2021, 02:10:29 am »

Thanks for your reply Woody

What bit is not fact?

The £6m debt is a FACT

The money received from the Chinese and the shareholding / movements is a FACT

They have asked these questions in person but no received straight answers

So after 6 years and continued poor, disrespectful treatment of the supporters Trust, they finally start to publicly questioned the owners.

Needing actual plans to see what is actually planned, how much it will cost, especially as tax payers are paying for it and most importantly - it might show they are actually serious on getting it built !!!

This is history repeating itself, Cardoza spent years lobbying the council to develop but never submitted a planning application, KT has done exactly the same.

Random, with respect which is it, supporting the club financially or not incurring debt. It seems to me there’s a contradiction between the two? Unless you are suggesting that the owners should have developed the ground from the get go and turned an immediate profit. Or perhaps they should have doubled the debt by developing the ground and spending money on the pitch. I understand the criticism to some extent but I am yet to see any convincing alternative that goes even half way towards a completely acceptable outcome. As I said when it comes to outlay the current owners have put in more than any other owners in our history according to the submitted accounts. If any money for the club purchase has gone offshore that would still need to be declared or my understanding is that its tax evasion. If that’s what people think then perhaps they should say it and if true, me and a few others will undoubtedly be the first to apologise. So who’s going to put their hand up and take ownership of that accusation?
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« Reply #389 on: July 17, 2021, 05:23:24 am »

Random, with respect which is it, supporting the club financially or not incurring debt. It seems to me there’s a contradiction between the two? Unless you are suggesting that the owners should have developed the ground from the get go and turned an immediate profit. Or perhaps they should have doubled the debt by developing the ground and spending money on the pitch. I understand the criticism to some extent but I am yet to see any convincing alternative that goes even half way towards a completely acceptable outcome. As I said when it comes to outlay the current owners have put in more than any other owners in our history according to the submitted accounts. If any money for the club purchase has gone offshore that would still need to be declared or my understanding is that its tax evasion. If that’s what people think then perhaps they should say it and if true, me and a few others will undoubtedly be the first to apologise. So who’s going to put their hand up and take ownership of that accusation?

Maybe if, as I've suggested previously, they had just finished the stand with the "ringfenced" money from the start and played ball with the council then it maybe wouldn't have got this far down the road, the council may have given them the deal they were after and all this debt wouldn't have been incurred and everyone may have lived happily ever after. All speculation of course, just like a lot of the waffle on here.
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« Reply #390 on: July 17, 2021, 05:51:54 am »

Maybe if, as I've suggested previously, they had just finished the stand with the "ringfenced" money from the start and played ball with the council then it maybe wouldn't have got this far down the road, the council may have given them the deal they were after and all this debt wouldn't have been incurred and everyone may have lived happily ever after. All speculation of course, just like a lot of the waffle on here.
Fair enough, but given we went into free fall after the departure of Chris Wilder then arguably there was justification for spending it on the squad and changing the manager once Rob Page didn’t work out. On that note I did feel a little bit sorry for them. CW clearly encouraged them to come on board and then left to join Sheffield within a few months, which did cause quite a lot of upheaval. So it was probably a factor in why the initial budget got blown elsewhere. Although to be fair that kind of thing shouldn’t be entirely unexpected at our level.
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« Reply #391 on: July 17, 2021, 06:27:52 am »

Maybe if, as I've suggested previously, they had just finished the stand with the "ringfenced" money from the start and played ball with the council then it maybe wouldn't have got this far down the road, the council may have given them the deal they were after and all this debt wouldn't have been incurred and everyone may have lived happily ever after. All speculation of course, just like a lot of the waffle on here.

And say that others should be a politician?
You've done a great job of avoiding that particular question.  Cool
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« Reply #392 on: July 17, 2021, 06:38:32 am »

And say that others should be a politician?
You've done a great job of avoiding that particular question.  Cool

That was Shoemaker (no relation). Easy mistake to make. Smiley
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« Reply #393 on: July 17, 2021, 15:15:31 pm »

Random, with respect which is it, supporting the club financially or not incurring debt. It seems to me there’s a contradiction between the two? Unless you are suggesting that the owners should have developed the ground from the get go and turned an immediate profit. Or perhaps they should have doubled the debt by developing the ground and spending money on the pitch. I understand the criticism to some extent but I am yet to see any convincing alternative that goes even half way towards a completely acceptable outcome. As I said when it comes to outlay the current owners have put in more than any other owners in our history according to the submitted accounts. If any money for the club purchase has gone offshore that would still need to be declared or my understanding is that its tax evasion. If that’s what people think then perhaps they should say it and if true, me and a few others will undoubtedly be the first to apologise. So who’s going to put their hand up and take ownership of that accusation?

As you said Melly, KT gained control of the club and its land assets by agreeing to build the East stand with £4m 'ringfenced' money, so if that had done that and the club had debts of £6m or so then fine, we have something to show for it.

Prior to them arriving the club had assets in said land, all be it, on complicated leases etc. Once that land is developed it is gone, it is a once in a lifetime opportunity. so KT proposal is that the club gets £3m spent on the East stand with a few boxes, a small car park behind and thats it. At this stage we don't know what the East stand will be, quite frankly I don't trust KT to deliver even on the CGI plan. I am expecting a Cardoza like "best value for the football club" with consulting fees to the tune of £100,000s (remember DC and his dad charged the club £2m in fees for the development that was paid out to them by the Bushey lot from NBC money) and so the stand having a very basic fit, even just single storey fitted out.

So from an asset worth around £20m under control of the football club we get little value, no more space to expand, no conference centre, no roof top terrace restaurants that would look out on Upton lake, no 24/7 income. Let alone what we could do with the other £7m, assuming half split with the council. No we get very little and more lost opportunities.

What does KT / DB get?  Well they paid £1 for the club, and paid a tax bill of £166k, obviously other bills but also other income. They then buy 22 acres of land for £170k, then sell the club to the Chinese for £6.7m, they then re-acquire the club for free (i believe, they have never refutted this) from the Chinese. So for the princely sum of £336k approx they have received 22 acres of land worth approx £20m and £6.7m in cash.  £26.7m on £336k investment. WOW WOW WOW.

Now they have had the inconvenience of having a football club attached to all this and as we all know it is very very very difficult to make money in football but very very very easy to spend and lose money. The accounts show that they have lost over £6m, however the accounts do not show us any details, we don't know how those numbers are been created. Sure JFH and some of the useless players we have signed cost a bit, but not one of those signings were marque ones that we might have got excited about, so not big money. Also that £6m is a profit & loss figure so is made up of invoices, what is say that there are invoices from BVI based businesses for consulting and management fees ?  we just don't know, all i do know is when I look around the ground and the football club I don't see where we have spend and lost £60k let alone £6m.

The football pyramid and it's history is full of clubs going bust, owners who sell grounds and burden communities and football clubs with bad debts, deals and contracts. Clubs that overspend, rely on short term spending owners have been a massive problem as one day it all comes home to roost , why? mainly because the ego's (and sometimes greed) of the owners is far more important to them that the town and communities those football clubs are in.

German football thrives because of togetherness and community, the 50+1 model works, helped by a joint TV deal that gives the football clubs millions not thousands we get in here. Exeter City is supporter owned and run, they have developed the ground with a new stand (2 i think) and their Trust gives the football club £100k each year from it's membership. Exeter have a population that is half of ours and they can do it 100%, why? because they are owned and run by supporters who love their club. Why can't we do it? I have seen the goodwill, energy and effort that many fans make in supporting the club, we marched on the Guildhall as we wanted better, small businesses have given their services free. IF NTFC WAS LOCALLY OWNED do you think local business, WNC, individuals and fans would be more willing to support their local club, if they see the ground had a lick of paint and people were there every day doing improving bit by bit, every aspect of the club, would they be willing to match and beat the effort of Exeter and their community?

A German girl had £30k raised for her because she was upset and crying when England beat them in the Euros, it clearly shows the power of community and crowd funding. Our history, our fanbase, our town, our catchment area deserves better, together we can achieve so much more.
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« Reply #394 on: July 17, 2021, 15:58:25 pm »

As you said Melly, KT gained control of the club and its land assets by agreeing to build the East stand with £4m 'ringfenced' money


But did he though?

I remember him saying that they had that money after they come in. But are you sure it was a qualifying criteria to get ownership?
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« Reply #395 on: July 17, 2021, 16:32:56 pm »

As you said Melly, KT gained control of the club and its land assets by agreeing to build the East stand with £4m 'ringfenced' money, so if that had done that and the club had debts of £6m or so then fine, we have something to show for it.


But it wouldn't be 6m it would be 10m, or do you think that the 4m ringfenced money would be a gift?
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« Reply #396 on: July 17, 2021, 16:55:05 pm »

When they took over with whatever promises were made the club did not own/lease the larger parcel of land. It had been separated to CDNL. It was only their smart manoeuvring during the administration process that got them control.
 The clubs land still is quite substantial in its own right and under-utilised overall.
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« Reply #397 on: July 17, 2021, 16:59:11 pm »

But it wouldn't be 6m it would be 10m, or do you think that the 4m ringfenced money would be a gift?

But if he’d done what he said in the first place, the council may have agreed a deal with him years ago, KT etc would have got a load of money, maybe given us a bit and the -£10M would maybe have been + a few quid, maybe, blah blah blah.
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« Reply #398 on: July 17, 2021, 17:22:59 pm »

But did he though?

I remember him saying that they had that money after they come in. But are you sure it was a qualifying criteria to get ownership?

Are you sure it wasn't? At the last minute there was more than just KT's bid on the table...what do you think swung the council to go with him? Just the fact he got in first? The "proof" of £11m in ready funds? The non-legally binding commitment to finish off the stand? A combination of all the above perhaps?

I did have to laugh at one of your earlier posts, you claimed not to be bothered about the stand..in fact it barely raised much more than a "whimper above your head"......

You do realise that no stand = no land, no land could well equal no club?

Sounds like you are readying yourself for the home games on the Racecourse already.......
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« Reply #399 on: July 17, 2021, 17:24:27 pm »

But if he’d done what he said in the first place, the council may have agreed a deal with him years ago, KT etc would have got a load of money, maybe given us a bit and the -£10M would maybe have been + a few quid, maybe, blah blah blah.

It's all those uncertainties though isn't it? He could equally have finished the stand as soon as he arrived and still be waiting for permission from the council to do the surrounding redevelopment, he'd just be much deeper in the hole while trying to do it.

Some people are in cloud cuckoo land. I'd love to know if they'd spùnk their own money so freely and so frivolously!
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