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New Trust statement on club finances

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Author Topic: New Trust statement on club finances  (Read 13453 times)
CJ
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« Reply #460 on: July 22, 2021, 12:41:09 pm »


As to seeing nothing wrong with our own supporters trust apparently trying to bring the club's owners into national disrepute.... wow.
If the Trust believe it is beyond contentious, why so?
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« Reply #461 on: July 22, 2021, 12:50:39 pm »

Understanding where the Chinese obtained their money in the first instance might explain why they didn't kick off with greater force?

Interesting comment and adds to the mystery of the lack of potential involvement by them.
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« Reply #462 on: July 22, 2021, 13:12:46 pm »

i expect the contract was in 2 parts - initial payment for shares of £6.8m to KT / DB and then £1.2m into NTFC.

As they didn't do the £1.2m they failed to meet the contract and expect the contract said they were in breach and so shares re-acquired.

Money was also paid off-shore so little /  nothing the authorities could / would do.

Again these are people who had a very small business in China suddenly overpaying X6 at least, for a football club 5000 miles away, and talked up by having our star striker visit in the name of Education.

so draw your own conclusions on that one.

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« Reply #463 on: July 22, 2021, 14:14:37 pm »

Woody, the owners might want the figures to be private but when the money is coming from public funds / NTFC land asset, the people of Northampton need to know they are getting a fair deal.

We have to learn from the DC debacle. Remember many people questioning the cost of building the stand and DC saying it's the best deal we can get. Turned out that one reason is was such poor value was that it included £2m "consultation fees" for him and his dad.

We don't want similar happening this time

Agree, but isn't that the responsibility of the council and part of the due diligence they are running?

We 100% need to learn from it, but equally cant let what (choosing my words carefully) some people may or may not have done to cloud our judgement of the current owners or any in the future.
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« Reply #464 on: July 22, 2021, 14:39:16 pm »

agreed Woody, but you would hope that in the given situation and very tight deadlines, that you have to trust people and think that they are reasonable and well intentioned.

My judgement of the current owners is taken due to the following: (lots of other more trival matters)

1. He refused to repay £10k paid to keep the staff their so the deal could get done and the club would fulfil it's fixtures
2. All the same staff remained despite being in the employment and supported DC in all his actions
3. Knocked a hole in the home toilets and stopped there,
4. Didn't want to deal with the Supporters Trust at all
5. Stated the club doesn't warrant developing
6. Obviously didn't build the East stand with the £4m ringfenced.
7. That NTFC has now been the same for the last 10 years, repeating the same mistakes time after time, no plans, no ambitions, no imagination, just treading water after treating water,
8. Pocketed £6.8m by selling the club of the QT.
9. 95% focus on land deals
10. Offering the club to one group for one price and then to a NTFC fan for £1m more a week later.
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« Reply #465 on: July 22, 2021, 14:56:42 pm »

Thank you for this MC

Can you post up the answers from similar questions you have asked KT please.

Thanks


You're welcome. 

What was KT's response to the many questions you clearly have?  What did they say to you at the Open Day the other week?  Have they responded to any of your emails, letters or private messages? 

Would be good if you could post up the answers.

Thanks.
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« Reply #466 on: July 22, 2021, 15:32:44 pm »

Thanks MC, you tell more yours and i'll tell you mine

and remember I asked first  Grin

Once again those who hold the Trust to a high level of scrutiny never give any reason or evidence of how or why KT has been good for NTFC

On a side note, if we had done an Exeter and kept with the same manager and support staff, ie: Rob Page, where do you think we would be today?

How much money would we have saved? and even better if that money had gone into infrastructure projects what would we have?  obviously not expecting an answer from MC, Tcobb, BOTN, SingCobb, Hammy and others but thought I would ask again
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« Reply #467 on: July 22, 2021, 15:57:24 pm »

Thanks MC, you tell more yours and i'll tell you mine

and remember I asked first  Grin

Once again those who hold the Trust to a high level of scrutiny never give any reason or evidence of how or why KT has been good for NTFC

On a side note, if we had done an Exeter and kept with the same manager and support staff, ie: Rob Page, where do you think we would be today?

How much money would we have saved? and even better if that money had gone into infrastructure projects what would we have?  obviously not expecting an answer from MC, Tcobb, BOTN, SingCobb, Hammy and others but thought I would ask again
Exeter appointed Tisdale in 2006. Not including that seasons they spent 2 seasons in the conference, 3 of them in League 1 and 7 in League 2.
In the same time we've spent 5 years in League 1 and 7 in League 2

Not sure infrastructure wise or playing level its made any difference sticking with him.
Also not sure if Page was just an example but I suggest watching the highlights back from P*sh away!
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« Reply #468 on: July 22, 2021, 16:12:15 pm »

Thanks MC, you tell more yours and i'll tell you mine

and remember I asked first  Grin

Once again those who hold the Trust to a high level of scrutiny never give any reason or evidence of how or why KT has been good for NTFC

On a side note, if we had done an Exeter and kept with the same manager and support staff, ie: Rob Page, where do you think we would be today?

How much money would we have saved? and even better if that money had gone into infrastructure projects what would we have?  obviously not expecting an answer from MC, Tcobb, BOTN, SingCobb, Hammy and others but thought I would ask again

Well let's see....

What has KT/DB done that's been good?

  • Paid the inland revenue bill
  • Established the education programme
  • Made the club run in a much more professional manner
  • Stuck some seats in the East Stand so at least we are making some money from it in the interim
  • Been happy to engage with fans when approached directly (apparently, never bothered trying it myself beyond a cordial "hello" when passing him on the concourse.)
  • Overseen a big increase in the community work done
  • Subsidised the club with director loans to keep us going
  • Continued to slog through the red tape with the council for the redevelopment work

If by "done an Exeter" you mean gone into fan ownership, we probably wouldn't have been able to afford/attract Rob Page in the first place and if we had, with the side he assembled we'd have been as screwed as we were but unable to even attempt to buy our way out of the mess he'd created during the January transfer window (which we did try to do, another good thing KT did, even if it didn't work out)

If that money had gone into infrastructure projects? You have noticed we're losing money, right? If we hadn't spent the money on paying people off and trying to bail our way out of trouble, it still wouldn't have been available to invest in infrastructure projects because, in all likelihood, it would be needed to prop the club up (in the absence of director loans coming in).
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« Reply #469 on: July 22, 2021, 16:31:47 pm »

NTFC CAN be run at a break even basis, it was under DC for a few years. Other clubs of our size are run at break even / small profit so who's fault is it that we are, allegedly, losing £1M a year ? I doubt that our playing budget is £1M a year more than the likes of Accrington & Exeter and both of those clubs get smaller gates than us so something's wrong somewhere.
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« Reply #470 on: July 22, 2021, 17:22:34 pm »

Quite a bit of interesting information in this document for any interested in rising above the standard fare and the usual agenda laced rhetoric. https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/uk/Documents/sports-business-group/deloitte-uk-annual-review-of-football-finance-2020.pdf
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« Reply #471 on: July 22, 2021, 17:34:24 pm »

Well let's see....

What has KT/DB done that's been good?

  • Paid the inland revenue bill
.     £166k out - £6.8m in   Others were also lined up to pay that relatively small bill.
  • Established the education programme
. Sorry what? do you mean the community programmes funded by around £1m grants each year?
  • Made the club run in a much more professional manner
Sorry you really are going to give more detail than that. How exactly?
  • Stuck some seats in the East Stand so at least we are making some money from it in the interim
. oh yeah stroke of genius and imagination, installing seats we already owned, at a time we were selling out most games
  • Been happy to engage with fans when approached directly (apparently, never bothered trying it myself beyond a cordial "hello" when passing him on the concourse.)
Happy to engage in fans he can wrap round his little finger. The Trust were cast aside from day one
  • Overseen a big increase in the community work done
funded by that £1m grant(s)
  • Subsidised the club with director loans to keep us going
sorry this shows the opposite of well run, we have lost an average of £1m per year, with NOTHING to show for it whatsoever
  • Continued to slog through the red tape with the council for the redevelopment work
NBC have said nothing stopping him developing. he has constantly  moved the goal posts and kicked it down the road. He stabbed them in the back twice and then expects them to bend over and take a
[/list]

If by "done an Exeter" you mean gone into fan ownership, we probably wouldn't have been able to afford/attract Rob Page in the first place and if we had, with the side he assembled we'd have been as screwed as we were but unable to even attempt to buy our way out of the mess he'd created during the January transfer window (which we did try to do, another good thing KT did, even if it didn't work out). No I was actually just thinking about the about of money and upheaval we have suffered by keep changing managers and just financially where would we be, let alone league position, especially if that was coupled with a plan to develop our own players in that time

If that money had gone into infrastructure projects? You have noticed we're losing money, right? If we hadn't spent the money on paying people off and trying to bail our way out of trouble, it still wouldn't have been available to invest in infrastructure projects because, in all likelihood, it would be needed to prop the club up (in the absence of director loans coming in). Think you have this backwards, I am talking of having a longer term plan, we keep trying a very very short term plan of scrapping together a team, that arguable gets worse every season, in fact thinking about it, not sure many would argue that our team has got worse each season. Large sums of money is spent on paying off contracts of managers, staff and players then employing new managers, staff and players and then rinse and repeat. If we cut our playing budget by £100k each year (2 so reserve players salaries), We could have had better catering or big screen or club shop or gym equipment or spas / recovery. Most of that we would have for the next season and the next etc.

Thanks BOTN, you are the first one to ever reply and actually try to explain what KT has done for my football club. My replies, which I don't expect you will like are above.
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« Reply #472 on: July 22, 2021, 17:37:19 pm »

Exeter appointed Tisdale in 2006. Not including that seasons they spent 2 seasons in the conference, 3 of them in League 1 and 7 in League 2.
In the same time we've spent 5 years in League 1 and 7 in League 2

Not sure infrastructure wise or playing level its made any difference sticking with him.
Also not sure if Page was just an example but I suggest watching the highlights back from P*sh away!


Yes and we have accrued debts in excess of £25m in that time for 2 extra years of struggle in League 1, whilst Exeter have zero debt and built 2 new stands.
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« Reply #473 on: July 22, 2021, 17:43:48 pm »

Yes and we have accrued debts in excess of £25m in that time for 2 extra years of struggle in League 1, whilst Exeter have zero debt and built 2 new stands.
https://www.devonlive.com/sport/football/football-news/exeter-city-post-700000-loss-3982276
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« Reply #474 on: July 22, 2021, 18:07:07 pm »


also from that report....

"But while for the year ending June 30, 2019, the club posted an operating loss of £702,000, this compares favourably to the £1.33m budgeted loss that the club had anticipated."

"The balance sheet shows that the club maintains its planned positive cash position with current retained earnings almost £2m, with the club’s budgeting approach to release a proportion of previously earned transfer income over successive seasons after that income is received."

A look at the accounts filed at Companies house shows the following also....

Cash at bank and in hand: ECFC = £1.27m, NTFC £513k
Creditors falling due within one year: ECFC = £2.202m, NTFC £7.596m
Net Assets = ECFC £1.652m as opposed to net Liabilities for NTFC of £4.66m
Trade Creditors: ECFC £123k, NTFC £345k
Amount of tax and Social security owed: ECFC £344k, NTFC £562k
Number of employees: ECFC 214, NTFC 287

One club's accounts has the following statement "The financial statements indicate that the company has insufficient cash reserves to continue trading without securing additional funding" and one clubs accounts show nothing of the sort.

Bigger picture.......!!
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« Reply #475 on: July 22, 2021, 18:14:56 pm »

also from that report....

"But while for the year ending June 30, 2019, the club posted an operating loss of £702,000, this compares favourably to the £1.33m budgeted loss that the club had anticipated."

"The balance sheet shows that the club maintains its planned positive cash position with current retained earnings almost £2m, with the club’s budgeting approach to release a proportion of previously earned transfer income over successive seasons after that income is received."

A look at the accounts filed at Companies house shows the following also....

Cash at bank and in hand: ECFC = £1.27m, NTFC £513k
Creditors falling due within one year: ECFC = £2.202m, NTFC £7.596m
Net Assets = ECFC £1.652m as opposed to net Liabilities for NTFC of £4.66m
Trade Creditors: ECFC £123k, NTFC £345k
Amount of tax and Social security owed: ECFC £344k, NTFC £562k
Number of employees: ECFC 214, NTFC 287

One club's accounts has the following statement "The financial statements indicate that the company has insufficient cash reserves to continue trading without securing additional funding" and one clubs accounts show nothing of the sort.

Bigger picture.......!!

Also from the report.
The overall improved performance against budget was driven by the sale of striker Jayden Stockley to Preston North End in January 2019 for a fee believed to be in the region of £750,000, with a small proportion of the funds received being reinvested within the playing costs.
In a joint statement Julian Tagg, chairman and director of football at Exeter City FC, and Nick Hawker, chair of the Supporters’ Trust said: "Both financial years were affected dramatically by transfer activity. Income from transfers allows us to continue investment in our playing squad, however, the board is very much aware that this level of investment may not always be possible and longer-term financial planning is in place for a number of scenarios.
Even bigger picture. 😉
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« Reply #476 on: July 22, 2021, 18:28:39 pm »

Also from the report.
The overall improved performance against budget was driven by the sale of striker Jayden Stockley to Preston North End in January 2019 for a fee believed to be in the region of £750,000, with a small proportion of the funds received being reinvested within the playing costs.
In a joint statement Julian Tagg, chairman and director of football at Exeter City FC, and Nick Hawker, chair of the Supporters’ Trust said: "Both financial years were affected dramatically by transfer activity. Income from transfers allows us to continue investment in our playing squad, however, the board is very much aware that this level of investment may not always be possible and longer-term financial planning is in place for a number of scenarios.
Even bigger picture. 😉
whilst this is a bit tongue in cheek GPC and trying to prove the point on why selective commentary was avoided from the Devon Live report in the first instance, what is the comparative book value between the clubs as another basis for evaluation?
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« Reply #477 on: July 22, 2021, 18:36:50 pm »

whilst this is a bit tongue in cheek GPC and trying to prove the point on why selective commentary was avoided from the Devon Live report in the first instance, what is the comparative book value between the clubs as another basis for evaluation?

What was the basis for you posting the £700k loss article in the first place?

On the face of it, Exeter seem to be in less debt and overall in a healthier position than we are. They also own their ground and other pitches, whereas we list the East Stand on OUR books as an asset under construction valued at £2.5m!! One in the eye for those who say by building the East Stand we are enhancing the Councils asset if the Club is actually listing the East Stand as IT's asset.
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« Reply #478 on: July 22, 2021, 18:47:51 pm »

What was the basis for you posting the £700k loss article in the first place?

On the face of it, Exeter seem to be in less debt and overall in a healthier position than we are. They also own their ground and other pitches, whereas we list the East Stand on OUR books as an asset under construction valued at £2.5m!! One in the eye for those who say by building the East Stand we are enhancing the Councils asset if the Club is actually listing the East Stand as IT's asset.
The basis was that Exeter were held up as an example of success when they posted a 700k loss even after selling a player for 750k all pre Covid. The point I am trying to make is that other examples are held up as comparatives to berate our owners when they are not quite the shining examples they are made out to be. However, when a figure that may be seen as a positive such as the book value is mentioned, it is immediately slammed with negative caveats. The problem with this approach is that people may start to feel they are being manipulated and any initiative stalls as a result. My view is that balanced impartial judgment rather than hysterical outbursts tends to have more of an impact, not that I am accusing you of that. I agree that not too much should be read into the book value comparison by the way. However, I would also say the same about many of the accusations that are levelled at the club too.
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« Reply #479 on: July 22, 2021, 19:04:08 pm »

Again playing devils advocate, can anyone explain to me why KT & DB would take the payment from 5U Sport and incur a 50% personal tax liability when they could have paid it off against the loans and incurred no tax liability at all? Forget the offshore thing, they are taxed on global income in their country of residence so unless they are committing tax fraud (good luck with that in the UAE) then they have just chucked 3 million down the toilet. Come up with a logical explanation for that and the argument might get a bit more convincing.
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