The Hotel End
May 20, 2022, 01:31:01 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
  Home Help Search Arcade Gallery Links Staff List Calendar Login Register  

New Trust statement on club finances

Pages: 1 ... 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 [27] 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 ... 42   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: New Trust statement on club finances  (Read 23384 times)
guest3359
Guest
« Reply #520 on: July 23, 2021, 10:14:19 am »

Just a thought on this and the anger seems to be that the owners potentially made the same amount from 5U that the club is currently showing as debt through loans.

So you have two choices. You can either transfer the £6m to the club and clear the debt. That will undoubtedly make all the fans happy.
Or you keep the club owing £6m, then when you then come to sell the club (which they have made clear they are open to) you can then try to get the new owners to pay you the £6m and keep the £6m as profit. Or you keep the £6m in a rainy day account accumulating a nice bit of interest and then use it to clear the loans on the day of sale.

Im sure there are complex reasons why its not as simple as that. But essentially our owners have 2 bank accounts. One at -£6m, one at +£6m.
Report Spam   Logged
1971cobbler
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 517


View Profile
« Reply #521 on: July 23, 2021, 10:14:35 am »

I don't think the two are directly related. 5U bought the shares in the club from KT and DB (with whatever shell companies involved along the way) so that is their money. If the money they've "loaned" the club is from that pot or from elsewhere is a bit of a moot point.

It's still unclear if the money from 5U was kept by any of the parties though. From the Trust statement the other week:

The club/KT&DB could clear this up very easily, but frankly I don't see why they should as they are under no obligation to publicly discuss their personal finances.


If I am honest, this is my personal view too, and I think MC and a few others feel this way? If the money has needed to be spent (whether it represents good value or otherwise?) then the "debt" loaded on the club is only relevant to DB and KT if they can't recoup at point of sale.

I think the question is whether the debt has been loaded on falsely though, to hide the monies that were received from the Chinese?

GPC / Manny, am I reading between the lines correctly here from your viewpoints?
Report Spam   Logged
random
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1365


View Profile
« Reply #522 on: July 23, 2021, 10:14:54 am »

BOTN - this is where I'm at.
I made the post below a couple of weeks ago and didn't see any responses that moved the dial. In fact GPC's post from yesterday is the first time I've read anything that even half addresses any of these points which is why I asked for his source so I could try to do some digging myself.

1. None of us know how much of the agreed consideration KT & DB actually received for their shares and/or how much of that was cash and/or how much of it was returned when the whole 5USport thing fell over. Correct me if I'm wrong?
2. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, that is between them and 5USport. You & I may not like it, but that alone doesn't mean anyone has done anything wrong
3. Even if they did 'pocket' £6-7m for the shares and keep it, they have to-date ploughed £6-7m into the club's running costs, so they are at best back where they started and at worst £6-7m down on the deal as things stand



So you do you trust owners who sell the football club to overseas investors but don't actually tell anyone?

FFS its not about them doing anything legally wrong - it is morally and also just another example of their attitude towards the supporters of NTFC.



Report Spam   Logged
guest3359
Guest
« Reply #523 on: July 23, 2021, 10:17:35 am »

So you do you trust owners who sell the football club to overseas investors but don't actually tell anyone?

FFS its not about them doing anything legally wrong - it is morally and also just another example of their attitude towards the supporters of NTFC.


I'm possibly going to show my stupidity / ignorance here, but didnt we know he had sold it to overseas investors?
Report Spam   Logged
claretparrot
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 554


View Profile
« Reply #524 on: July 23, 2021, 10:20:15 am »

So you do you trust owners who sell the football club to overseas investors but don't actually tell anyone?

FFS its not about them doing anything legally wrong - it is morally and also just another example of their attitude towards the supporters of NTFC.


By overseas investors, do you mean 5U? By not telling anyone, do you mean not telling anyone in advance? These are genuine questions - the answers will help me understand where you're coming from
Report Spam   Logged
random
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1365


View Profile
« Reply #525 on: July 23, 2021, 10:20:37 am »

Its not just where we are now, it's where we are heading in the future that worries me and the Trust

Every single year passes with them in control of our club the following happens

1. The team gets worse
2. The finances gets worse
3. The relationship with the fans gets worse
4. The condition of the ground gets worse
5. The communication from the owners gets worse




Report Spam   Logged
guest3359
Guest
« Reply #526 on: July 23, 2021, 10:22:16 am »

Its not just where we are now, it's where we are heading in the future that worries me and the Trust

Every single year passes with them in control of our club the following happens

1. The team gets worse - Not true
2. The finances gets worse - True to a certain extent
3. The relationship with the fans gets worse - not true
4. The condition of the ground gets worse - true
5. The communication from the owners gets worse - not true (its always been pretty lacking)


Report Spam   Logged
BackOfTheNet
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4700


View Profile
« Reply #527 on: July 23, 2021, 10:33:38 am »

BOTN, thats the level you have stooped to to defend our owners - disabled children WOW
I picked an act that no rational person could possibly take offence at, namely helping a disabled child back into a wheelchair. I'm in no way mocking disabled children, but if you want to take offence on behalf of a hypothetical illustration then be my guest.
Re our club / the owners - we are £7m in debt, back in League 2 without a good squad, about to lose 20m land asset & half the running track, and the ground falling apart

Do you think it is acceptable that they had plans for over 2 years on the East but did not show or mention them to the fans UNTIL some not good news comes out about them receiving £6.8m for selling the club, again without telling anyone?
Yes. As much as some people don't like it, NTFC is their business to develop as and when they choose. Or not to develop if they choose! As supporters we like to say it's "our" club and feel some sense of entitlement, but at the end of the day we are just interested parties. We'd all like the situation resolved as soon as possible and when you or I find ourselves in a position to buy the club and run it ourselves, it will then become our prerogative to do so. Until then, it's up to the current owners.
You really think that is acceptable from the owners of your football club?
Erm, yes.
Also please reply to my answers from your support of our owners previously
No. I've made my point of view quite clear and, like our owners, I am under no obligation to justify myself to you.
Report Spam   Logged

The Hotelend Grand National* Sweepstake Champion 2020
random
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1365


View Profile
« Reply #528 on: July 23, 2021, 10:37:14 am »

Hi Woody & Parrot,

No they said it was a partnership and they sold some shares (60%) in one of the controlling companies of NTFC. They actually then sold / transferred the other 40%, meaning the Chinese owned and controlled our football club. No announcement was made, I don't know why, I expect there was some crossover of contracts and the Chinese government stopping overseas investment. As there was another £1.2m payment to go to the football from the Chinese as part of the deal, the oblingations were not met. DB was a very clever lawyer so I expect that the contracts read that if the money was not paid they would be in breach of contract and DB could re-acquire the shares. I know it sounds incredible that they would have returned the money but thats not how business contracts work, especially bearing in mind, in one corner a experienced, shrewd lawyer, one corner a very small business (and people) with a tiny business having accesses to £6.8m to throw around and then in the other corner - off shore accounts and businesses and finally in the other corner, possible money laundering and illegal activities.

We have total evidence of the £6.8m payments and the re-acquirement of the shares, we dont know how a small company would be willing and able to pay £6.8m for a club that the owners brought for £1 2 years earlier, we don't know why KT / DB have spoke about all the details of the transactions etc, we don't know why the Chinese hasn't broken KT legs  Grin (they did make a challenge, so would suggest they not happy)  Again it is the whole point, after DC, fans still seem to not worry about iffy dealing by our owners, why the football rots arounds them as the owners work on asset striping the football, all in the name of development
Report Spam   Logged
random
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1365


View Profile
« Reply #529 on: July 23, 2021, 10:40:09 am »

sorry woody, got on my soapbox in the last post and didn't address your post

I agree that normally the debts loaded to the club are not a big issue as most of the time the owners write them off when they walk away

However this is not the case here as they want to use the profit from the sale of the 22 acres of land to pay off this debt. So no it's not good deal or value for NTFC.

Report Spam   Logged
random
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1365


View Profile
« Reply #530 on: July 23, 2021, 10:46:00 am »



so how often do you post on the Sainsbury's / Next / B&M / McDonalds etc fans forum?

Do you get into debate with other customers about the actions of their board members and owners?
Report Spam   Logged
everbrite
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17626


Akenfenwa best of the bunch since Steve Howard


View Profile
« Reply #531 on: July 23, 2021, 10:46:44 am »

sorry woody, got on my soapbox in the last post and didn't address your post

I agree that normally the debts loaded to the club are not a big issue as most of the time the owners write them off when they walk away

However this is not the case here as they want to use the profit from the sale of the 22 acres of land to pay off this debt. So no it's not good deal or value for NTFC.



Random - is your background, Legal, HMRC or Financial expertise?
Report Spam   Logged

2020 Grand National S/S 3rd Place
guest3359
Guest
« Reply #532 on: July 23, 2021, 10:55:44 am »

Hi Woody & Parrot,

No they said it was a partnership and they sold some shares (60%) in one of the controlling companies of NTFC. They actually then sold / transferred the other 40%, meaning the Chinese owned and controlled our football club. No announcement was made, I don't know why, I expect there was some crossover of contracts and the Chinese government stopping overseas investment. As there was another £1.2m payment to go to the football from the Chinese as part of the deal, the oblingations were not met. DB was a very clever lawyer so I expect that the contracts read that if the money was not paid they would be in breach of contract and DB could re-acquire the shares. I know it sounds incredible that they would have returned the money but thats not how business contracts work, especially bearing in mind, in one corner a experienced, shrewd lawyer, one corner a very small business (and people) with a tiny business having accesses to £6.8m to throw around and then in the other corner - off shore accounts and businesses and finally in the other corner, possible money laundering and illegal activities.

We have total evidence of the £6.8m payments and the re-acquirement of the shares, we dont know how a small company would be willing and able to pay £6.8m for a club that the owners brought for £1 2 years earlier, we don't know why KT / DB have spoke about all the details of the transactions etc, we don't know why the Chinese hasn't broken KT legs  Grin (they did make a challenge, so would suggest they not happy)  Again it is the whole point, after DC, fans still seem to not worry about iffy dealing by our owners, why the football rots arounds them as the owners work on asset striping the football, all in the name of development
Random, appreciating your replies, I understand your perspective on the finances, I just happen to disagree, but no issues with that.

It is strange that they sold the other 40% or were in the process of without notification. My optimistic side would hope they planned to announce when it was all finalised and then didn't when it fell through. We will never know.

However, I was always under the impression that although KT would stay on as chairman it would have been 5U who had control over the club. My assumption was then that overtime he would leave and they would appoint someone themselves who would be based in the UK to oversee things.

This is from a report on Reuteurs.... “They do have the majority share. You could call it investment or you can call it a takeover. I wouldn’t necessarily understand the difference,” Thomas told BBC
Report Spam   Logged
claretparrot
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 554


View Profile
« Reply #533 on: July 23, 2021, 10:58:46 am »

Hi Woody & Parrot,

No they said it was a partnership and they sold some shares (60%) in one of the controlling companies of NTFC. They actually then sold / transferred the other 40%, meaning the Chinese owned and controlled our football club. No announcement was made, I don't know why, I expect there was some crossover of contracts and the Chinese government stopping overseas investment. As there was another £1.2m payment to go to the football from the Chinese as part of the deal, the oblingations were not met. DB was a very clever lawyer so I expect that the contracts read that if the money was not paid they would be in breach of contract and DB could re-acquire the shares. I know it sounds incredible that they would have returned the money but thats not how business contracts work, especially bearing in mind, in one corner a experienced, shrewd lawyer, one corner a very small business (and people) with a tiny business having accesses to £6.8m to throw around and then in the other corner - off shore accounts and businesses and finally in the other corner, possible money laundering and illegal activities.

We have total evidence of the £6.8m payments and the re-acquirement of the shares, we dont know how a small company would be willing and able to pay £6.8m for a club that the owners brought for £1 2 years earlier, we don't know why KT / DB have spoke about all the details of the transactions etc, we don't know why the Chinese hasn't broken KT legs  Grin (they did make a challenge, so would suggest they not happy)  Again it is the whole point, after DC, fans still seem to not worry about iffy dealing by our owners, why the football rots arounds them as the owners work on asset striping the football, all in the name of development

Random I'm going to come back with some more questions/clarifications. I'm not looking for an argument. I think if you and others (including but not limited to GPC) can address some of these points clearly (and, crucially, evidence any claims you make) you're far more likely to bring people with you...

1) In the underlined part of your post, what are you actually alleging and can you evidence it? Please be very clear.
2) You say "we have total evidence" of particular transactions or parts of them. Why is this not being shared to back up the claims that yourself and others are making?
3) Do you have any real reason to doubt that any or all of the consideration was returned to 5U, or is that an assumption on your part? Appreciate it is difficult to prove a negative, but if you don't have any evidence it is an assumption nonetheless.

As an aside to 1), without any evidence/proof of wrongdoing I'd say you're sailing pretty close to the wind mate so choose your words carefully. I'd hate to see anyone get into hot water for trying to do what they see as the best by their club, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 11:05:16 am by claretparrot » Report Spam   Logged
1971cobbler
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 517


View Profile
« Reply #534 on: July 23, 2021, 11:00:19 am »

FWIW, I am loving the debate that's going on currently re this emotive topic.

In my opinion, there do seem to be a couple of distinct camps? Those that are fans who are unhappy with the goings on at "our club" and those that are fans who are probably separating the match day experience from the rest of the business?

Before anyone comments, both sides of this are perfectly entitled to their opinions. Also, neither camp deserve abuse from the other just because their viewpoint differs.

Report Spam   Logged
guest3359
Guest
« Reply #535 on: July 23, 2021, 11:03:28 am »

Agree. This is probably the longest the debate has gone on without descending into bickering or abuse (bar 1 post).
Certainly two very distinct positions but ultimately everyone wants the same thing which is for the club to succeed.
Report Spam   Logged
BackOfTheNet
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4700


View Profile
« Reply #536 on: July 23, 2021, 11:03:49 am »

so how often do you post on the Sainsbury's / Next / B&M / McDonalds etc fans forum?

Do you get into debate with other customers about the actions of their board members and owners?

Funnily enough, I don't. But then I'm not an "interested party" in any of their affairs. If I did though I'd have every bit as little/much right to tell them how they should be running their business as any of us do on here!
Report Spam   Logged

The Hotelend Grand National* Sweepstake Champion 2020
random
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1365


View Profile
« Reply #537 on: July 23, 2021, 11:23:59 am »

Funnily enough, I don't. But then I'm not an "interested party" in any of their affairs. If I did though I'd have every bit as little/much right to tell them how they should be running their business as any of us do on here!

Exactly my point BOTN,  football clubs and their owners are and should be, under far more scrutiny that other businesses because they serve and represent the community they are in.

If you don't care about the behaviour of our owners, fine no problem, just stop caring about those that actually do as you question and scrutinise every statement or post anyone puts against the owners.
 
Report Spam   Logged
random
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1365


View Profile
« Reply #538 on: July 23, 2021, 11:32:04 am »

Random I'm going to come back with some more questions/clarifications. I'm not looking for an argument. I think if you and others (including but not limited to GPC) can address some of these points clearly (and, crucially, evidence any claims you make) you're far more likely to bring people with you...

1) In the underlined part of your post, what are you actually alleging and can you evidence it? Please be very clear.
2) You say "we have total evidence" of particular transactions or parts of them. Why is this not being shared to back up the claims that yourself and others are making?
3) Do you have any real reason to doubt that any or all of the consideration was returned to 5U, or is that an assumption on your part? Appreciate it is difficult to prove a negative, but if you don't have any evidence it is an assumption nonetheless.

As an aside to 1), without any evidence/proof of wrongdoing I'd say you're sailing pretty close to the wind mate so choose your words carefully. I'd hate to see anyone get into hot water for trying to do what they see as the best by their club, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

The problem is Parrot, there is certain confirmed evidence of payments etc but a lot of it doesn't make sense. Ultimately when you look at the source of the £6.8m funds, they came from a small company in China with no visible financial track record and I feel it is at least fair to question why and where the money came from. They said education !!! Buying a football club for over 6 x the owners had invested in doesn't make any sense does it?   would you agree? 

Again all this about legal this, legal that, for me it's about trust, do you trust the owners to do their best for NTFC? and if you do great, but please tell me how they have won your trust?   
Report Spam   Logged
claretparrot
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 554


View Profile
« Reply #539 on: July 23, 2021, 11:48:24 am »

The problem is Parrot, there is certain confirmed evidence of payments etc but a lot of it doesn't make sense. Ultimately when you look at the source of the £6.8m funds, they came from a small company in China with no visible financial track record and I feel it is at least fair to question why and where the money came from. They said education !!! Buying a football club for over 6 x the owners had invested in doesn't make any sense does it?   would you agree? 

Again all this about legal this, legal that, for me it's about trust, do you trust the owners to do their best for NTFC? and if you do great, but please tell me how they have won your trust?   

Absolutely fair questions to ask, Random. I think mine were too though and, with respect, you haven't answered them.

I always want as complete an understanding as possible of a situation before I draw any conclusions. Unfortunately all I've got at the moment is unevidenced claims from yourself, GPC (e.g. movement of monies to BDJ) and others. You're clearly well-intentioned, and the things you're talking about are obvious to you because you say you've seen the evidence. You're asking the rest of us to just take claims on here at face-value and be as outraged as you are. For me, that's not how it works.
Report Spam   Logged
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 [27] 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 ... 42   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Parental guidance is urged as this messageboard may not be suitable for all persons especially those under the age of 16 as the forums may contain words, phrases and expressions not considered appropriate for a younger audience so please express caution. If any posts in the forums offend you, please let us know and we will look at them and if we agree with your complaint, we will remove them. You are personally responsible and potentially liable for the contents of your posting and may be sued should your posting contain content of a defamatory or other illegal nature. Every message posted leaves a traceable IP number. We check the forums at various times of the day and remove offending posts. Other supporters are welcome but abusive or silly posts will be removed and the offenders potentially barred from future access to the site. We advise that you never reveal any personal information about yourself or anyone else (for example: telephone number, home address or email address), and please do not include postal addresses of any kind. This messageboard is not endorsed or in any way affiliated with Northampton Town FC. All postings on this board become copyright of The Hotel End & may not be reproduced without the permission of the board administrator. By signing up to this message board you agree to this. The Hotel End cannot be held liable for the actions or postings of its members. The Hotel End reserve the right to edit, delete, move or close any thread for any reason. The Hotel End may disclose user information to government authorities at their discretion or when required by law. The Hotel End may also disclose user information when The Hotel End has reason to believe that someone is causing injury to or interference with its rights or property, other The Hotel End users, or anyone else that could be harmed by such activities. By registering for The Hotel End, you agree to indemnify The Hotel End its representatives, and agents, and hold them harmless from any and all claims (including claims for legal fees) which may arise from your participation on the The Hotel End. You also agree that The Hotel End is not responsible for the materials posted by users of The Hotel End. In addition, you grant The Hotel End and its affiliates, worldwide, royalty-free perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display any message or content posted on The Hotel End and/or e-mail sent by you to The Hotel End (in whole or in part). The Hotel End reserves the right to make the rules up as it goes along. Thank you - The Hotel End I love Quidco
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMFServer.com - Create your own Forum

Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy