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New Trust statement on club finances

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« Reply #540 on: July 23, 2021, 12:06:48 pm »

Parrot, how many times have you questioned KT?

Did you take it at face value when he joined and said he had £4m in invest? did you ask him for evidence? 

Did you ask KT for evidence why we should believe him that a £3m build of the East stand is the best value for our football club?

Why suddenly are you so interested in seeing the Trust's evidence?  Why do you trust KT and not the long serving, loyal supporters who have dedicated their lives ensuring that you have a club to support?  Do you really think they would publish lies against KT?

Did they publish the fact that they kept the club going at the end of DC era, they paid the staff wages to stop them leaving, they paid £1500, again in cash, to provide payment for the team bus so that we could fulfil an away fixture or two. Did they then make it known the KT had reneged on return that money to the Trust as agreed?  no they didn't, they didn't want to paint KT in a bad light I assume.

Did they post and complain after they didn't receive the normal thanks in the programme and tannoy when they sponsored a match?  no they didn't, but the club were petty enough to do so in the first place.

After being out in the cold KT called upon the Trust to support the land deal with NBC as they obviously indicated that the Trust view is important, so again they didn't hold it against KT, they tried to help. Obviously in light of the previous chairman etc, they wanted to know more details of what the deal actually was, so they asked the questions that KT invited. KT again didn't like be held accountable to the fans so launched an anti-Trust PR exercise. The rest is history 

So finally after 6 years of poor treatment by KT, they have finally grown and pair and said enough is enough
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« Reply #541 on: July 23, 2021, 12:13:05 pm »

Parrot, how many times have you questioned KT?

Did you take it at face value when he joined and said he had £4m in invest? did you ask him for evidence? 

Did you ask KT for evidence why we should believe him that a £3m build of the East stand is the best value for our football club?

Why suddenly are you so interested in seeing the Trust's evidence?  Why do you trust KT and not the long serving, loyal supporters who have dedicated their lives ensuring that you have a club to support?  Do you really think they would publish lies against KT?

Did they publish the fact that they kept the club going at the end of DC era, they paid the staff wages to stop them leaving, they paid £1500, again in cash, to provide payment for the team bus so that we could fulfil an away fixture or two. Did they then make it known the KT had reneged on return that money to the Trust as agreed?  no they didn't, they didn't want to paint KT in a bad light I assume.

Did they post and complain after they didn't receive the normal thanks in the programme and tannoy when they sponsored a match?  no they didn't, but the club were petty enough to do so in the first place.

After being out in the cold KT called upon the Trust to support the land deal with NBC as they obviously indicated that the Trust view is important, so again they didn't hold it against KT, they tried to help. Obviously in light of the previous chairman etc, they wanted to know more details of what the deal actually was, so they asked the questions that KT invited. KT again didn't like be held accountable to the fans so launched an anti-Trust PR exercise. The rest is history 

So finally after 6 years of poor treatment by KT, they have finally grown and pair and said enough is enough

I'm sorry mate but you're missing the point entirely and falling into a common habit on here of just being p**sed off that someone doesn't agree with you.

I haven't said that I trust or mistrust anybody on either side. I also haven't stated my opinion on the way KT/DB have run the club, handled the East Stand or managed their relationship with the trust (not for a long time anyway).

What I'm trying to do is level the playing field. If we're all furnished with the same facts and evidence, we can have a proper discussion about the rights and wrongs of what has or hasn't gone on.
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« Reply #542 on: July 23, 2021, 12:27:46 pm »

To put it another way mate, I'll readily admit that I don't take as keen an interest in the business side of the club as you and others do. I tend to take what the club, owners and staff say at face value. Call me naive but for me it's too stressful to approach it another way and to do so would impact my enjoyment of supporting the club. No I'm not happy looking at that stand every week, but frankly no I can't be arsed to do a lot about it for as long as it doesn't drive a threat to me being able to watch my club play league football.

What's different now is that direct and sometimes serious allegations are being made of shady, immoral and even illegal behaviour. If proven or at least evidenced to a degree that warrants taking them seriously, these are the kinds of things that would change my stance from the above. That's why I want to understand them better and therefore ask questions. It's nothing to do with taking sides - I couldn't care less in that regard.
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« Reply #543 on: July 23, 2021, 12:45:14 pm »

To put it another way mate, I'll readily admit that I don't take as keen an interest in the business side of the club as you and others do. I tend to take what the club, owners and staff say at face value. Call me naive but for me it's too stressful to approach it another way and to do so would impact my enjoyment of supporting the club. No I'm not happy looking at that stand every week, but frankly no I can't be arsed to do a lot about it for as long as it doesn't drive a threat to me being able to watch my club play league football.

What's different now is that direct and sometimes serious allegations are being made of shady, immoral and even illegal behaviour. If proven or at least evidenced to a degree that warrants taking them seriously, these are the kinds of things that would change my stance from the above. That's why I want to understand them better and therefore ask questions. It's nothing to do with taking sides - I couldn't care less in that regard.

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« Reply #544 on: July 23, 2021, 12:56:12 pm »

Exactly my point BOTN,  football clubs and their owners are and should be, under far more scrutiny that other businesses because they serve and represent the community they are in.

If you don't care about the behaviour of our owners, fine no problem, just stop caring about those that actually do as you question and scrutinise every statement or post anyone puts against the owners.
 

We're straying here into a territory that is a real bug bear of mine: absolutism. You seem to see me as blindly pro-KT and equally as blindly anti-anyone-against-KT.

That isn't the truth. I'm pro-balance and pro-fairness, so let me lay out my thoughts on both factions:

The Trust (and friends)
I've said on a number of occasions that I think the Trust is a good thing in principle, I'm proud that the Trust movement started with us and I want us to have an effective Trust going forwards. That said, in my opinion, the current Trust have behaved disgracefully over the last few years, having tantrums, throwing around allegations and insinuations like confetti and seemingly doing everything in their power to undermine the club at every turn. None of this sits well with me.

KT/DB
I actually think they have done a decent amount to bring us forwards as a community club. They stepped in and bailed us out and have continued to support the club's on field activities. OK, we're back where we started from but you really can't accuse them of not backing their managers financially but in a sensible manner. That said, they ain't really here for the football, are they? That's a fun side show. The real game is to make money from the surrounding area. When they've done that, they'll move along, taking the majority of that money with them. I think the difference between me and you on this one random is you're an idealist and I'm a realist; I have no problem with them making their money and moving along. I'd like to think they'll leave the club in a sound place when they go, but at this point that is on trust (as it would be with any other owner).

I really don't care how they manage their own money as long as it doesn't affect the club. Thus far, it doesn't seem to be in any real terms, so I'm happy. Would I rather they gifted money to the club instead of loaned it? Yes, of course, but why would they do that? I certainly have no expectation of them to do so.

And yes, actually, on a personal note I quite like KT. He comes over well, he talks to people, he isn't aloof the way Cardoza was. I sit not a million miles from the directors box and while I've never spoken to him directly, when he's at games he chats freely with people, laughing and joking with them and people seem to like him. From what I've seen, there are far more people amongst our fanbase in this camp than in the camp that seem to view him as the anti-christ.

Personally, I feel more engaged with the club under his stewardship than at any time in my 23 years or so as a season ticket holder.

Picking a side
I do not want to have to "pick a side". I want our club to be one that has a board and a Trust that can be civil and start working together, and not so long back I thought we were going to get that before the Trust reverted to type. Over the last few years, the club have kept a pretty dignified silence in the face of rather a lot of niggly provocation from the Trust (until recently at least when they appear to have come out swinging!)

I respect what KT & DB are trying to do here and, having worked for companies in the past that have been stymied in what they were trying to do by stakeholders lobbing in grenades at every turn, I felt some sympathy for them.

So for me it is who do you align yourself with? The quiet, polite guy just trying to get on with his job and make a few quid or the gobby, aggressive agitator shouting abuse from the sidelines? Yes, the time everything is taking is frustrating but I've seen nothing that makes me think KT & DB shouldn't be supported in what they are trying to do. Seeing people whinge and moan and criticise everything someone does winds me right up though.

Maybe it's more about perceptions and levels of patience and maybe I just like to think the best of people, but for the time being I'm content to let everything continue to play out as it is because I think things are going, very slowly, in the right direction.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 12:59:19 pm by BackOfTheNet » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #545 on: July 23, 2021, 13:31:19 pm »

Parrot, how many times have you questioned KT?

How many times have you?  In person or in writing.....not on a messageboard.  What did he say?
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« Reply #546 on: July 23, 2021, 13:32:33 pm »

To put it another way mate, I'll readily admit that I don't take as keen an interest in the business side of the club as you and others do. I tend to take what the club, owners and staff say at face value. Call me naive but for me it's too stressful to approach it another way and to do so would impact my enjoyment of supporting the club. No I'm not happy looking at that stand every week, but frankly no I can't be arsed to do a lot about it for as long as it doesn't drive a threat to me being able to watch my club play league football.

What's different now is that direct and sometimes serious allegations are being made of shady, immoral and even illegal behaviour. If proven or at least evidenced to a degree that warrants taking them seriously, these are the kinds of things that would change my stance from the above. That's why I want to understand them better and therefore ask questions. It's nothing to do with taking sides - I couldn't care less in that regard.
Unfortunately mate you canít demarcate between the business side and what happens on the field, they are so linked itís untrue.
I know what you mean about not wanting to get involved in the business side and KTs running of the club. BUT this is called Apathy and Cobblers fans are full of it and it plays into the owners hands.
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« Reply #547 on: July 23, 2021, 13:36:38 pm »

How many times have you?  In person or in writing.....not on a messageboard.  What did he say?
What he thinks you want to hear, actions always speak louder than words, Kelvin Thomasís spectacular failure to run our club is there for all to see, no real assets of value, the stadium in a terrible condition, broken windows, the ďbig screenĒ broken etc etc back in L2 and all this for a bargain £7m.
In any other business heíd be down the road long ago!!!
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« Reply #548 on: July 23, 2021, 13:37:55 pm »

Unfortunately mate you canít demarcate between the business side and what happens on the field, they are so linked itís untrue.
I know what you mean about not wanting to get involved in the business side and KTs running of the club. BUT this is called Apathy and Cobblers fans are full of it and it plays into the owners hands.


Manny if you read back you'll see that I'm not apathetic in the slightest. As soon as we progress from innuendos (see your latest in bold), I'll sit up and listen. In fact, I've spent a fair chunk of today trying to accelerate that process to no avail.
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« Reply #549 on: July 23, 2021, 13:40:42 pm »

Manny if you read back you'll see that I'm not apathetic in the slightest. As soon as we progress from innuendos (see your latest in bold), I'll sit up and listen. In fact, I've spent a fair chunk of today trying to accelerate that process to no avail.
Sorry mate I wasnít accusing you of not caring it was more of a general observation.
If you want the facts contact the trust they have all you need to know.
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« Reply #550 on: July 23, 2021, 13:46:01 pm »

Sorry mate I wasnít accusing you of not caring it was more of a general observation.
If you want the facts contact the trust they have all you need to know.

No worries.

They may well have it, but unfortunately they are unwilling to share it. This is a claim I can evidence:

http://www.smfserver.com/forums/thehotelend/index.php/topic,20202.msg442346.html?PHPSESSID=23106eefd63cbb8a1331c849ed88b992#msg442346

See quote from linked post by MC Hammer:
MCH question: 'What physical evidence do you have that the payments were made/money changed hands for the amounts quoted?  Can that be shared to support the trusts statements?'

Trust response: 'The Trust Board is satisfied that the evidence of the payments in the amounts stated is accurate.'
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« Reply #551 on: July 23, 2021, 13:49:21 pm »

No worries.

They may well have it, but unfortunately they are unwilling to share it. This is a claim I can evidence:

http://www.smfserver.com/forums/thehotelend/index.php/topic,20202.msg442346.html?PHPSESSID=23106eefd63cbb8a1331c849ed88b992#msg442346

See quote from linked post by MC Hammer:
MCH question: 'What physical evidence do you have that the payments were made/money changed hands for the amounts quoted?  Can that be shared to support the trusts statements?'

Trust response: 'The Trust Board is satisfied that the evidence of the payments in the amounts stated is accurate.'
Maybe Grange Park Cobbler could help?
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« Reply #552 on: July 23, 2021, 13:52:07 pm »

For someone who purports to be an international ty**** and cannot miss an opportunity to broadcast the fact, you really are quite dim. I guess your your Kojee Bear piggybank must be empty.
Soggy, welcome back old friend.
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« Reply #553 on: July 23, 2021, 13:53:49 pm »

Maybe Grange Park Cobbler could help?

I've asked GPC to source some of the information he posted yesterday but he hasn't replied yet. Can you see the theme here and why it frustrates?

Whichever side of the debate you're on, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect people to back up what they say or back down if they can't/won't.
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« Reply #554 on: July 23, 2021, 14:00:08 pm »

So why would the majority of the money be paid into the BVI?
Reduction in corporation tax?
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« Reply #555 on: July 23, 2021, 14:47:05 pm »

On the Chinese money side of things then....

So we, the supporters, are not allowed to see evidence of the payments for the share purchase we just have to accept the word of the Supporters Trust.  Is that good enough? Everyone happy with that?

OK what about the fact that the Trust knew about this information last summer so about 12 months ago but chose not to publicly release it until recently.  Happy with that?  No questions anyone?  Would you have liked to have known about this a year ago?

According to KT someone from the Trust or closely associated with them then contacted media organisations with this information.  Happy with that?  Is that what you all would want to happen?

The Trust may have reported this information to the relevant authority but they can't or won't tell you if they did?  Somehow being governed by the Financial Conduct Authority is relevant to not being able to provide a detailed response.  What does that even mean?  If they have reported concerns to an authority would you want to know?  Would you be concerned why and what had been done wrong?  If they haven't reported it to anyone would that also be of interest why?

Anyway forget all that if the Trust board have concerns about the Chinese deal like other NTFC supporters that they are representative of would expect them to raise them directly with KT for an explanation.  Apparently they did.....last September.  What did they ask him I hear you all cry...no just me then?  We don't know it was a "closed letter".  What did he say in his explanantion?  We don't know becuase they never even told you even a year later that they even asked.....until the letter was released/leaked by KT to a supporter.  Was the Trust happy with KT's response did they question further?  What was said in the meetings that subsequently took place?  

WE DON'T KNOW BECUASE THEY WON'T TELL YOU OR RELEASE THE CORRESPONDENCE.  We only know it exists because KT released it.  The guy who isn't answering questions and won't tell you what happened with the Chinese deal.  You might not agree with his anwers as is your right but you surely deserve to at least know there were some answers.

Are you still happy with all that?

In an even more bizarre twist of events shortly after the Trust raised all these concerns regarding the Chinese deal with the owner...they released a joint statement with the club publicly backing the development deal.

Are you happy they backed the deal in those circumstances?  Did their concerns get removed after these interactions with KT?  You would think so if they decided to publicly back him?  If not what the hell were they doing?  Again no explanation given.

The final irony is that everyone that seems to have some level of concern about the legal and moral level of these Chinese funds suddenly seems to be ok about them if they were gifted/converted to share equity rather than loans.

So for those that constantly dismiss me as anti Trust and and don't think I should even be challenging them.  Honestly are you happy with all of that?  Have they given you all of the information you deserve or need to make a balanced judgement?  Is this how you want the Trust to be?  To you want to constantly be given a "view" of the trust board or the information so you can make your own mind up?

Closed communications, partial information, releasing information when they see fit, avoiding answering questions fully, a board that is making big decisions without consulting it's supporters......who am I talking about here KT or the Trust?

Surely you want more than this?
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« Reply #556 on: July 23, 2021, 15:07:33 pm »

That would be a great post MC if it was aimed at KT

The Trust have tried to support and tread carefully and has gotten them nowhere.

You really expect them to publish evidence about payments etc?

In the meantime you ask and expect nothing of KT?  have you actually considered why the Trust have taken this action? 

Did you get KT approval for your reply above? What is he offering you for your soul??
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« Reply #557 on: July 23, 2021, 15:09:06 pm »

Its not just where we are now, it's where we are heading in the future that worries me and the Trust

Every single year passes with them in control of our club the following happens

1. The team gets worse
2. The finances gets worse
3. The relationship with the fans gets worse
4. The condition of the ground gets worse
5. The communication from the owners gets worse.

What are your thoughts on the above MC, BOTN, Hammy and all the others focusing on the Trust rather than the owners?




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« Reply #558 on: July 23, 2021, 15:22:10 pm »

That would be a great post MC if it was aimed at KT

The Trust have tried to support and tread carefully and has gotten them nowhere.

You really expect them to publish evidence about payments etc?

In the meantime you ask and expect nothing of KT?  have you actually considered why the Trust have taken this action? 

Did you get KT approval for your reply above? What is he offering you for your soul??

Random, it is the Trust and its friends shouting the odds and trying to discredit the club. That is why people are putting the onus on them to provide supporting evidence for their position. It isn't about being pro or anti anyone, it's about not just reading a series of unsubstantiated claims on here and taking them as gospel.

On the bit in bold - yes. Absolutely I do. How else can the rest of us be expected to take them seriously?
If you were accused of wrongdoing, I'm sure you'd want your accuser to need to show some proof or good evidence before you were arrested and/or all your friends turned their backs on you and/or you ended up in the papers. No?
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« Reply #559 on: July 23, 2021, 15:30:00 pm »

Well, as you've asked me specifically....

Its not just where we are now, it's where we are heading in the future that worries me and the Trust

Every single year passes with them in control of our club the following happens

1. The team gets worse - Subjective at best.
YearFinishComment
11 L2They can't take much credit for this one, although we might not have finished the season at all if they hadn't come in.
216 L1Worse
322 L1Worse
415 L2A level lower, but a better team.
57 L2Not great to watch, granted, but you can't argue with promotion.
622nd L1Worse
7Huh?Who knows, but under Brady I'm hopeful.
2. The finances gets worse - On paper.  
3. The relationship with the fans gets worse - completely disagree. I think most fans are right behind the team and proud of the club. I can't wait for the season to start.
4. The condition of the ground gets worse - this is true. I appreciate if there is going to be movement on the development front soon you might not spend that much on maintenance but FFS, you could at least get someone to fix the outdoor tap behind the North stand that has clearly been jetting water for some time!
5. The communication from the owners gets worse - disagree again. I think they say what they can. Things are at a delicate stage with the council, say too much and either irritate the council or get the fans' hopes up only to be pilloried if things then don't happen. Sometimes it's best to keep quiet. That way you only get pilloried for your communications getting worse.


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