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New Trust statement on club finances

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Author Topic: New Trust statement on club finances  (Read 19564 times)
Melbourne Cobbler
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« Reply #620 on: July 25, 2021, 09:43:06 am »

Theyíre still trying to account for a missing £10m over here if you have a spare 5 mins.
I recall hearing something about that somewhere?
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« Reply #621 on: July 25, 2021, 17:28:23 pm »

You seem to spend a whole lot of time and energy criticising the Trust and its supporters on this site but remarkably little time criticising the club's owners.  The owners are the story and it's quite a story.

If you had seen proof of payment what difference would it make to your view? Not a lot I suggest. I am sure you will continue with your Trust bashing. You are a sad case.

Wow look what we've got here.

Gather round everyone we've caught a big one.  If you look closely at the markings, the tone of their insults and study closely the droppings they left behind this species is easily identifiable.  The common name for them is "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member".

Being "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member" offers many benefits.  You can regualarly insult people on social media.  You can lobby local MP's/councillors against our current owners.  You can occasionally even obtain and share information with "A Trust Board Member(s)".  All while in the comfort of knowing it's not a problem for the Supporters Trust because you are "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member".

I've asked loads of questions recently why doesn't someone else ask this person what role they've carried out for the trust over the last couple of years.  Bet you don't get an honest answer with any detail.  Maybe even ask them if THEY have seen the actual evidence of the Chinese payments.

I thought they had been told to stand down or has the dust settled enough after the letter from club staff?  If you've forgotten your original login I'm sure admin can help you and we can have a proper debate.  Anything you want to dispute about what I have said recently?
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« Reply #622 on: July 25, 2021, 19:39:11 pm »

Wow look what we've got here.

Gather round everyone we've caught a big one.  If you look closely at the markings, the tone of their insults and study closely the droppings they left behind this species is easily identifiable.  The common name for them is "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member".

Being "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member" offers many benefits.  You can regualarly insult people on social media.  You can lobby local MP's/councillors against our current owners.  You can occasionally even obtain and share information with "A Trust Board Member(s)".  All while in the comfort of knowing it's not a problem for the Supporters Trust because you are "Not A Supporters Trust Board Member".

I've asked loads of questions recently why doesn't someone else ask this person what role they've carried out for the trust over the last couple of years.  Bet you don't get an honest answer with any detail.  Maybe even ask them if THEY have seen the actual evidence of the Chinese payments.

I thought they had been told to stand down or has the dust settled enough after the letter from club staff?  If you've forgotten your original login I'm sure admin can help you and we can have a proper debate.  Anything you want to dispute about what I have said recently?
I wonder who else has seen the evidence? 🤔
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #623 on: July 25, 2021, 20:05:23 pm »

I wonder who else has seen the evidence?

Evidence of what? Someone making money out of a business deal. So fúcking what. You lovers of the Trust are so focused on this it is comical. You **** about the 6.8 million debt, how the fúck do you think the club would have survied with out this money being put into the club coffers?
OK, now come out with the "happy clappers", "love in with KT" comments and then tell me I am wrong.
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« Reply #624 on: July 25, 2021, 20:12:32 pm »

Evidence of what? Someone making money out of a business deal. So fķcking what. You lovers of the Trust are so focused on this it is comical. You **** about the 6.8 million debt, how the fķck do you think the club would have survied with out this money being put into the club coffers?
OK, now come out with the "happy clappers", "love in with KT" comments and then tell me I am wrong.

Surely 6.8 million in debt is exactly how NOT to run a business. This can only end badly.
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« Reply #625 on: July 25, 2021, 21:07:35 pm »

Surely 6.8 million in debt is exactly how NOT to run a business. This can only end badly.

So, you are expecting someone to gift money to a business? Or do you expect all expenses to be paid by magic?
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« Reply #626 on: July 25, 2021, 21:09:28 pm »

So, you are expecting someone to gift money to a business? Or do you expect all expenses to be paid by magic?
Most socialists believe in a magic money tree so I am shocked by your comment.
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #627 on: July 25, 2021, 21:12:33 pm »

Most socialists believe in a magic money tree so I am shocked by your comment.

Twát. Try saying something relevant.
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« Reply #628 on: July 25, 2021, 21:19:08 pm »

TwŠt. Try saying something relevant.
Haha love it when I hit a raw nerve, your really not very clever are you?
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« Reply #629 on: July 25, 2021, 21:20:36 pm »

Haha love it when I hit a raw nerve, your really not very clever are you?

No, you as usual have no answer to a question asked of you. Basically you are a twát. If you had a brain you would be dangerous.
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« Reply #630 on: July 25, 2021, 21:25:55 pm »

No, you as usual have no answer to a question asked of you. Basically you are a twŠt. If you had a brain you would be dangerous.
What question asked of me? itís unlike you to ask questions, you think you know everything better, typical millennial, woke and think the world owes them a living.
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« Reply #631 on: July 25, 2021, 21:32:13 pm »

What question asked of me? it’s unlike you to ask questions, you think you know everything better, typical millennial, woke and think the world owes them a living.

You really are a complete twat. All you can do is say that anyone who goes against your opinion is a happy clapper, in bed with KT or hates The Trust. Best thing you can do is hide your head in shame, as the owners of the club have put in 6.8 million to keep it running. How many of the ficticous "other intersted parties" could have done that.
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« Reply #632 on: July 25, 2021, 21:38:08 pm »

You really are a complete twat. All you can do is say that anyone who goes against your opinion is a happy clapper, in bed with KT or hates The Trust. Best thing you can do is hide your head in shame, as the owners of the club have put in 6.8 million to keep it running. How many of the ficticous "other intersted parties" could have done that.
It strike me that at some point in your life you were starved of oxygen.
Letís see what happens.
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Rule Britannia
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« Reply #633 on: July 26, 2021, 00:54:00 am »

It still frustrates me a that people are annoyed about criticism of the Trust being a priority for some. As a body that is representative of the support base and its members the Trust is supposed to be something you can do something about. Therefore if you would like a strong effective Trust of some influence or you feel the Trust is to some extent failing you as a member then you should be able to openly discuss this. Further more in light of the Trusts commitment to transparency, one would expect this to be encouraged. Alternatively kicking the sh1t out of the owners directly on here whilst therapeutic is a fairly pointless exercise. Therefore you could argue that trying to influence the approach of the Trust in theory should be the most realistic way of instigating change. In light of this wouldnít it make more sense to try and persuade or pressure the Trust than the ownership. At least that way you have a chance, no matter how small of achieving something.
My personal view is that if the Trust had the proven significant majority of the support base backing its decision making, it would be infinitely more powerful than it is now. That is what has motivated any criticism I have levelled at the Trust in the past. As a member this is both my right and should in theory be encouraged. Frankly any attempt to suppress opinion or criticise this activity is both not best practice and slightly confusing IMO. Itís also a bit sinister at times and definitely counterproductive. To repeat, the Trust is only likely to achieve anything of worth with the owners if it obtains the proven majority support of its membership and the wider support base. My view is that itís focus in the first instance should be to get it, also IMO obviously. In summary concentrate on what you can change and ignore what you canít. I would suggest this is why some focus more on the Trust than the ownership. Hope this clears up any confusion or mystery attached to this conundrum for some?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 01:24:33 am by Melbourne Cobbler » Report Spam   Logged

Chairman, Paul Stratford Fan Club, and proud member of the Steve Massey Appreciation Society. (Although refuse to be in his fan club on account of his crap goal celebration in front of The Hotel End when playing for Wrexham)
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« Reply #634 on: July 26, 2021, 01:22:45 am »

Surely 6.8 million in debt is exactly how NOT to run a business. This can only end badly.
Depends on a few things Soggy, the source and consequence of the debt followed by the time frame and amount of return on investment. Dependant on the answers it might be exactly how to run it and may end very well. The first 2 are not an issue, the third is a concern and the fourth is unknown from where Iím sitting. But then access to the full picture is limited and I am a bit dim so can you elaborate on your thoughts please?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 07:12:51 am by Melbourne Cobbler » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #635 on: July 26, 2021, 09:13:07 am »

Depends on a few things Soggy, the source and consequence of the debt followed by the time frame and amount of return on investment. Dependant on the answers it might be exactly how to run it and may end very well. The first 2 are not an issue, the third is a concern and the fourth is unknown from where Iím sitting. But then access to the full picture is limited and I am a bit dim so can you elaborate on your thoughts please?
Can you explain to me why the consequence of the (any) debt is not an issue Melbourne in the business sense because I  struggle with this.
My brain stretches as far as understanding that if the club had no debt to speak of having been run prudently in the knowledge that it has no real assets to speak of there would likely be suitors out there willing to buy it off the current owners at a realistic price and that these suitors could range from anyone between a local estate agent and his mates to Sheikh Mansour, but because the current owners have run up a debt of 6 million on day to day costs when it was demonstrated by Cardoza that this need not be the case and that this debt to the current owners needs to be repaid to them before they are willing to sell even the Sheikh might think twice.
How can building up a debt in the name of day to day running costs which purchases nothing permanent be exactly how to run anything, ever? I only understand the business practice that involves speculating to accumulate by building something that has a permanency and a guaranteed return, no matter how small. I this case that would be stuff like the infrastructure of stands and boxes etc.
If you wanted to hold the council, the people of Northampton, the fans, and anyone else interested in the welfare of the club to ransom in the pursuit of a land deal which would make you millions richer, i do however absolutely understand the logic in building up an apparent massively unsustainable debt that can get passed off as 'necessary for running costs' in order to win a very high stakes game of poker. The slight of hand that some seem to be suggesting now being that actually no real personal debt has been accrued by the owners.
How to get from a promise of 4 million ring-fenced to complete the stand with no attaching clauses to where we are now. Is this what some people are having trouble with, I wonder?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 09:16:38 am by CJ » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #636 on: July 26, 2021, 09:38:34 am »

Can you explain to me why the consequence of the (any) debt is not an issue Melbourne in the business sense because I  struggle with this.
My brain stretches as far as understanding that if the club had no debt to speak of having been run prudently in the knowledge that it has no real assets to speak of there would likely be suitors out there willing to buy it off the current owners at a realistic price and that these suitors could range from anyone between a local estate agent and his mates to Sheikh Mansour, but because the current owners have run up a debt of 6 million on day to day costs when it was demonstrated by Cardoza that this need not be the case and that this debt to the current owners needs to be repaid to them before they are willing to sell even the Sheikh might think twice.
How can building up a debt in the name of day to day running costs which purchases nothing permanent be exactly how to run anything, ever? I only understand the business practice that involves speculating to accumulate by building something that has a permanency and a guaranteed return, no matter how small. I this case that would be stuff like the infrastructure of stands and boxes etc.
If you wanted to hold the council, the people of Northampton, the fans, and anyone else interested in the welfare of the club to ransom in the pursuit of a land deal which would make you millions richer, i do however absolutely understand the logic in building up an apparent massively unsustainable debt that can get passed off as 'necessary for running costs' in order to win a very high stakes game of poker. The slight of hand that some seem to be suggesting now being that actually no real personal debt has been accrued by the owners.
How to get from a promise of 4 million ring-fenced to complete the stand with no attaching clauses to where we are now. Is this what some people are having trouble with, I wonder?

As an example CJ when we started our business over here I put in my own money in the form of a loan. If the business does well I get my money back. If it doesnít Iíve done my money and thatís it. If I borrow the money from a bank, they can pull the plug if they feel itís appropriate and I have little control over that. I would have also probably have put up collateral against the loan so the bank will use that to recoup its money. Therefore under a directors loan you retain full control over whatís going on with the finance of that loan, when getting a loan from an institution you hand an element of control over to them where they get to choose when to pull the plug and what assets to sell as a result often at significant consequence. Also if you are putting up assets from another business as security and that goes belly up they may pull the plug on the business that used the loan even though that may be doing well. Often directors loans are nothing more than a g@mb1e that you get your money back with no mechanism for recovering your money if things go wrong, if that makes sense?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 09:40:10 am by Melbourne Cobbler » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #637 on: July 26, 2021, 09:40:38 am »

You seem to spend a whole lot of time and energy criticising the Trust and its supporters on this site but remarkably little time criticising the club's owners.  The owners are the story and it's quite a story.

If you had seen proof of payment what difference would it make to your view? Not a lot I suggest. I am sure you will continue with your Trust bashing. You are a sad case.

Digging this out from a few days ago and not directed at Upton Way especially but this for me lies at the heart of the problem, and I'm repeating myself again.
Without full evidence its going to be open to interpretation and opinion.
IF the Trust had full evidence of wrongdoing they should have presented it in full, not to the fans but to the relevant authorities. The fact they haven't implies two things....
1. They don't have any evidence of wrong doing
2. They just don't like the way the owners have conducted their business.

I've only seen from the Trust maybe about a third of the story. They received £6m (cant remember the exact figure) for selling the shares. What I haven't seen, and the bit they is open to interpretation is following the breakdown how much profit, or loss, did our owners make. Because it sure as sh1t isnt £6m (in my opinion, see interpretation). So what is it...?
How much did they pay in legal fees when it broke down to ensure the rebuy of shares we legitimate. What was the agreed buy back rate, what taxes, fees, bank rates did they incur? etc etc
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« Reply #638 on: July 26, 2021, 09:49:32 am »

Can you explain to me why the consequence of the (any) debt is not an issue Melbourne in the business sense because I  struggle with this.
My brain stretches as far as understanding that if the club had no debt to speak of having been run prudently in the knowledge that it has no real assets to speak of there would likely be suitors out there willing to buy it off the current owners at a realistic price and that these suitors could range from anyone between a local estate agent and his mates to Sheikh Mansour, but because the current owners have run up a debt of 6 million on day to day costs when it was demonstrated by Cardoza that this need not be the case and that this debt to the current owners needs to be repaid to them before they are willing to sell even the Sheikh might think twice.
How can building up a debt in the name of day to day running costs which purchases nothing permanent be exactly how to run anything, ever? I only understand the business practice that involves speculating to accumulate by building something that has a permanency and a guaranteed return, no matter how small. I this case that would be stuff like the infrastructure of stands and boxes etc.
If you wanted to hold the council, the people of Northampton, the fans, and anyone else interested in the welfare of the club to ransom in the pursuit of a land deal which would make you millions richer, i do however absolutely understand the logic in building up an apparent massively unsustainable debt that can get passed off as 'necessary for running costs' in order to win a very high stakes game of poker. The slight of hand that some seem to be suggesting now being that actually no real personal debt has been accrued by the owners.
How to get from a promise of 4 million ring-fenced to complete the stand with no attaching clauses to where we are now. Is this what some people are having trouble with, I wonder?


It's a fair (if longwinded  Wink) challenge, CJ.

To frame it another way, though... do you think the club could have shaved, on average, close to £1m per year off its cash outflows and still be where it is now? I don't claim to know the answer, but I do know that's a big old gap to bridge with efficiency savings.

Edit: it is worth noting that the club was in significant debt during the Cardoza era, including before the council loan was drawn down. In fact, at June 2012 the net liabilities were c.£7.6m so greater than the latest set of accounts. Cardoza used to talk about getting close to breaking even, but the club weren't publicly issuing a P&L for most (or all, cba to check!) of his time at the helm.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 09:57:58 am by claretparrot » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #639 on: July 26, 2021, 09:52:07 am »

If you had seen proof of payment what difference would it make to your view? Not a lot I suggest. I am sure you will continue with your Trust bashing. You are a sad case.

I can only speak for myself (although I don't think I'm alone), but it would make a very significant difference.
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