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New Trust statement on club finances

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« Reply #660 on: July 26, 2021, 14:43:00 pm »

With respect, CJ, this last bit of your post is symptomatic of the second biggest problem in the way this debate is being conducted. I'm not having a go at you personally but there are a couple of themes that dictate we're all just going round in circles.

The #1 biggest problem is one lots of other posters have touched on - absolutism. The second is something you've just done and it's also common elsewhere on social media: the tendency to say whatever one likes with no sense of duty to justify or back it up.

Who says there is an overspend? Who says it is flagrant? That is based on your own assumptions & calculations and, by your own admission, you are no expert.

Who says all the current ownership wants is to maintain league status? I would say there is significant evidence to the contrary and, even if that is their sole aim, to drop to the most shoestring business model out there would seem to me to be a very risky strategy indeed. You might even call it reckless - just like spending £1m more each year than 'you really need to'?

Please Please Please show us the evidence.

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« Reply #661 on: July 26, 2021, 14:48:11 pm »

Again I think that’s a question for the Trust, I fully agree that the trust could be a bit more inclusive and transparent BUT these meetings are highly confidential and probably commercial sensitive so most likely under NDA therefore not for public consumption.
Tongue in cheek, you called me James a few times... now you sound like Kelvin  Wink Grin Tongue
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« Reply #662 on: July 26, 2021, 14:59:18 pm »

Please Please Please show us the evidence.



 Grin ...it's a bit disingenuous but I take your point.

The most recent piece of evidence that springs to mind is the decision to sack Curle. As owner, if all you cared about was staying in the football league, why would you sack (and pay up) a manager just because they looked like getting you relegated from L1?
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« Reply #663 on: July 26, 2021, 15:20:55 pm »

good answer Parrot,  I expect to appease and keep the fans on board  -  as he needs them in his deal with WNC

The appointment in itself demonstrates the lack of ambition - Curle had never achieve promotion and was hardly an upcoming, unproven manager

Don't understand giving him a 2 year deal on promotion in June, then not supporting him enough in January to sack him in February. 6 managers in 6 years tells its own story, 1 common dominator - KT
 
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« Reply #664 on: July 26, 2021, 15:22:04 pm »

With respect, CJ, this last bit of your post is symptomatic of the second biggest problem in the way this debate is being conducted. I'm not having a go at you personally but there are a couple of themes that dictate we're all just going round in circles.

The #1 biggest problem is one lots of other posters have touched on - absolutism. The second is something you've just done and it's also common elsewhere on social media: the tendency to say whatever one likes with no sense of duty to justify or back it up.

Who says there is an overspend? Who says it is flagrant? That is based on your own assumptions & calculations and, by your own admission, you are no expert.

Who says all the current ownership wants is to maintain league status? I would say there is significant evidence to the contrary and, even if that is their sole aim, to drop to the most shoestring business model out there would seem to me to be a very risky strategy indeed. You might even call it reckless - just like spending £1m more each year than 'you really need to'?
Non taken Parrot.
OK so I don't know that all the current ownership want to do is maintain league status but I'm as certain  as I need to be to know that the owner is not here for egotistical or philanthropic reasons, would you agree? What else is he here for then, is it not safe to assume that he invested in NTFC as a going concern in order to make himself wealthier and considerably so, given the overt risk involved? Why therefore it is not also safe to assume that he would want to work to best business practice by minimising losses rather than spunk money arbitrarily in a vain attempt at on field success? What commercial sense does that make? He is a very successful businessman.
I can only see any merit from our club owners point of view of increasing losses beyond necessary if it is done as a method of upping the anti and therefore pressure on the council and other involved parties to get them to agree to a deal because the consequences of no deal is no club, or if it has been achieved by incompetence. Those for me are the two options. The fact the average league two club has operating losses of 1million pa is a red herring. If I was standing in DB's shoes I would see average as failure.
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« Reply #665 on: July 26, 2021, 15:28:22 pm »

Non taken Parrot.
OK so I don't know that all the current ownership want to do is maintain league status but I'm as certain  as I need to be to know that the owner is not here for egotistical or philanthropic reasons, would you agree? What else is he here for then, is it not safe to assume that he invested in NTFC as a going concern in order to make himself wealthier and considerably so, given the overt risk involved? Why therefore it is not also safe to assume that he would want to work to best business practice by minimising losses rather than spunk money arbitrarily in a vain attempt at on field success? What commercial sense does that make? He is a very successful businessman.
I can only see any merit from our club owners point of view of increasing losses beyond necessary if it is done as a method of upping the anti and therefore pressure on the council and other involved parties to get them to agree to a deal because the consequences of no deal is no club, or if it has been achieved by incompetence. Those for me are the two options. The fact the average league two club has operating losses of 1million pa is a red herring. If I was standing in DB's shoes I would see average as failure.

Why are they mutually exclusive? If the figures that have been chucked around on here, and the evil schemes afoot for KT/DB to extract the whole lot, are anything near accurate then they can lose a fair chunk having a crack at on-field success for fun and still walk away well up on the deal.

Let's be absolutely clear, if these guys cared about their pockets and nothing else, they wouldn't be here and nor would their money. That is unless they're thick as pig s**t, and I suspect your guess on that front would be the same as mine.

None of this means I think the sun shines out their backsides or that I'm happy with the stand etc. etc. It's just reality as I see it.

As an aside, that £3m wages figure in the Deloitte report is all club staff and includes signing-on fees, bonuses, other benefits and employers' NI. So your £113k will be very toppy if you're trying to get to an average first team salary.
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« Reply #666 on: July 26, 2021, 15:30:05 pm »

good answer Parrot,  I expect to appease and keep the fans on board  -  as he needs them in his deal with WNC

The appointment in itself demonstrates the lack of ambition - Curle had never achieve promotion and was hardly an upcoming, unproven manager

Don't understand giving him a 2 year deal on promotion in June, then not supporting him enough in January to sack him in February. 6 managers in 6 years tells its own story, 1 common dominator - KT
 
Absolutely correct, what is also a common factor is the willingness pay-off managers and replace tem, hardly the actions of someone who doesn't care about the club. However being the old cynic I am I do wonder if the change in managers and hopefully pushing us straight back up is more of a way to make the club more attractive to prespective buyers? though I'm not sure if being a league higher would command a higher price.
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« Reply #667 on: July 26, 2021, 15:33:25 pm »

good answer Parrot,  I expect to appease and keep the fans on board  -  as he needs them in his deal with WNC

The appointment in itself demonstrates the lack of ambition - Curle had never achieve promotion and was hardly an upcoming, unproven manager

Don't understand giving him a 2 year deal on promotion in June, then not supporting him enough in January to sack him in February. 6 managers in 6 years tells its own story, 1 common dominator - KT
 

Nice spin, but I was talking about the specific claim that all they want is to keep the club in the football league until their pockets are full. I wasn't saying KT has risen to save us all.
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« Reply #668 on: July 26, 2021, 15:41:45 pm »

So apparently we are down to the situation where the Trust have put stuff out there just so we can make our own minds up. Apparently, that was their only motivation. Well… Thank you for drawing our attention to something that has been in the public domain forever. But if don’t mind, I’m going to join the other 99.9% of the support base, who don’t give a fcuk….  Grin Grin



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« Reply #669 on: July 26, 2021, 15:59:32 pm »

Why are they mutually exclusive? If the figures that have been chucked around on here, and the evil schemes afoot for KT/DB to extract the whole lot, are anything near accurate then they can lose a fair chunk having a crack at on-field success for fun and still walk away well up on the deal.

Let's be absolutely clear, if these guys cared about their pockets and nothing else, they wouldn't be here and nor would their money. That is unless they're thick as pig s**t, and I suspect your guess on that front would be the same as mine.

None of this means I think the sun shines out their backsides or that I'm happy with the stand etc. etc. It's just reality as I see it.

As an aside, that £3m wages figure in the Deloitte report is all club staff and includes signing-on fees, bonuses, other benefits and employers' NI. So your £113k will be very toppy if you're trying to get to an average first team salary.
They obviously needn't be and if it were the last father and son pair of encumbents I'd say there was some sense in that. I don't see DB that way though his profile isn't high enough for that for me. Just my opinion though
I disagree with your point that if they cared only for their pockets they wouldn't be here. Their decision to be here in the case of DB will have rested purely on his take on things from a business opportunity. Nothing else would have come into it. He isn't here to shake hands, make friends, or sponsor a football team unless that is what is needed to get his deal.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 16:23:10 pm by CJ » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #670 on: July 26, 2021, 16:15:09 pm »

So apparently we are down to the situation where the Trust have put stuff out there just so we can make our own minds up. Apparently, that was their only motivation. Well… Thank you for drawing our attention to something that has been in the public domain forever. But if don’t mind, I’m going to join the other 99.9% of the support base, who don’t give a fcuk….  Grin Grin




34 pages and counting says they do Tel.
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« Reply #671 on: July 26, 2021, 16:16:14 pm »

Tongue in cheek, you called me James a few times... now you sound like Kelvin  Wink Grin Tongue
Haha very good mate, come into my office and I’ll give you a pay rise.😉
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« Reply #672 on: July 26, 2021, 16:19:55 pm »

Haha very good mate, come into my office and I’ll give you a pay rise.😉
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« Reply #673 on: July 26, 2021, 16:20:55 pm »

So apparently we are down to the situation where the Trust have put stuff out there just so we can make our own minds up. Apparently, that was their only motivation. Well… Thank you for drawing our attention to something that has been in the public domain forever. But if don’t mind, I’m going to join the other 99.9% of the support base, who don’t give a fcuk….  Grin Grin




It might have been in your domain forever but then you are clearly a special supporter Tel, afforded privileges the common fan isn't. Not doing social media and only learning what I do from here, the official site, and the Trust site I have learnt stuff in the past month that I was previously unaware of, and yes, just like a release from an impartial media outlet I'm pleased that there hasn't been too much opinion from the Trust just information that they regard as being important for the masses to be made aware of.



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« Reply #674 on: July 26, 2021, 16:21:32 pm »

They obviously needn't be and if it were the last father and son pair of encumbents I'd say there was some sense I that. I don't see DB that way though his profile isn't high enough for that for me. Just my opinion though
I disagree with your point that if they cared only for their pockets they wouldn't be here. Their decision to be here in the case of DB will have rested purely on his take on things from a business optunity. Nothing else would have come into it. He isn't here to shake hands, make friends, or sponsor a football team unless that is what is needed to get his deal.


Yeah who knows, you might well be right.

If I was looking for somewhere to turn my 6, 7 or 10 mil into something a lot bigger, though, a football club would be very close to the bottom of my list. Land or no land.
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« Reply #675 on: July 26, 2021, 16:27:51 pm »

Yeah who knows, you might well be right.

If I was looking for somewhere to turn my 6, 7 or 10 mil into something a lot bigger, though, a football club would be very close to the bottom of my list. Land or no land.
I think they badly piššed off the council by taking the land leases from under the councils nose.
To the hard of thinking KT comes across as a silver younger entrepreneur, however to the business astute he comes across as a petulant child that’s always got his way.
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« Reply #676 on: July 26, 2021, 16:29:59 pm »

34 pages and counting says they do Tel.

34 pages of a few people regurgitating the same stuff… You wait until the first ball is kicked. If we went on a decent run our support wouldn’t care if Cardoza, McRitchie and Jimmy Saville were on the board..
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« Reply #677 on: July 26, 2021, 16:32:45 pm »

They obviously needn't be and if it were the last father and son pair of encumbents I'd say there was some sense in that. I don't see DB that way though his profile isn't high enough for that for me. Just my opinion though
I disagree with your point that if they cared only for their pockets they wouldn't be here. Their decision to be here in the case of DB will have rested purely on his take on things from a business opportunity. Nothing else would have come into it. He isn't here to shake hands, make friends, or sponsor a football team unless that is what is needed to get his deal.

CJ, following on from your earlier posts about salaries etc page 2 of the latest filed tax return puts the figure at a shade under 4 million. Page 12 claims there are 287 employees at the club. As they are abbreviated returns which is all that is required there is not much detail. I would imagine the 4 million figure would include paying off managers contracts such as JFH if it fell into the relevant time frame?

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/s6JjcgV-LTRLQ6n8Z2veiPQIcH2e-ZrG35bvagJkViM/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3H6QQL5WV%2F20210726%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20210726T152433Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjED4aCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQCWjUU21cxp0dDho4kvIONQgxdIasddUQtKq9tVw0XJRQIhAOJClAE7eDczOC4ytDAil2aiPPPW1iUxDOFTa%2Fh8063xKvoDCEcQAxoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgyAM63wYDsmJdmUmDYq1wO2Y1nhLGiGSgXv5uQ2VW4pZfw5zbe7gRtjPSnmpHUQOpYSScx6wzgwejtvtKwMw9%2BWGv6usnF%2BT5dfO2edXZKFmL6BBkdjGRXWB18yplmYDehfk%2Fd8s4P9vblajXGJvVeOQnuUD%2FPnFJeibMttezShMfd0SVA7tzRISIrV43pa7F3bq%2BxGXuGGqHdHPSCuw50yF%2F6TFGBTKlvThE%2BvGoFi7XemLIynTxq6bOjyXWxW2dJl3mEjqXcJstESC%2FYbfo44qkcKoKVJc%2BSRivXXYHoNg8iiw8Ea18eAf0XhyyHKG4CotrMguMWnE2gUZG4d6eTNV85XsBZXzwlDawKdeU0eFswSpM6Ux6AhF6zKACE%2B9SZ5USUg%2Fk%2FZKjTpie87BrGjpnMZknuHsjcqt%2FozYekaROqjfN3dPEKljrLjEos31FwyPQkrjPtP4QIZPkYmvSo%2FEkm3cwEN8UDt3KGidFRYnMj1IfjB3FbkFXfCN%2Fnqs8jCeLuPe%2FjXCBGBFfG0x7fEYWZnWlEJK3N8RV%2FUnaW2Qeden0cR33PuN3BDcmXfVM9fyzPdsgQ1%2FAg%2B9kB15X8hPVtkzkgstNqx9N8fW9ljmh5IimGj17KumsdHfrTSOeCSCOkPL1Ewp%2Fv6hwY6pAFMWMCGnpnNvfyyUp3e5RWu7AUeTcX367GLzfBy8rI9H0dYN5Wp2uJm4JX6isCtmWRgvjwh9dcKu9MTMzprT2HGueaq%2FULTlOqHbL8O8ckivQb0ZaoXcw2TBjnEoeAuZhD3uHLoVbYaEISD4adWzuK63lroZB9qr9FgptkdrS%2FlCYCj5e7ix%2B9hyVCjpknyHjO1OOmt%2BauNIJ11M5RkCbZ3bF%2BhcA%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22companies_house_document.pdf%22&X-Amz-Signature=79e7c925a2dd4d6bc608a82d78f22df81aadcb4180957bf45e781e0f6caaabbb
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« Reply #678 on: July 26, 2021, 16:32:58 pm »

Yeah who knows, you might well be right.

If I was looking for somewhere to turn my 6, 7 or 10 mil into something a lot bigger, though, a football club would be very close to the bottom of my list. Land or no land.
I too would not be risking money on a project with as many potential pitfalls as there seems to have been.
Then I suppose it depends on how it was sold to DB who sold it to him, how much confidence and trust he had in them (an awful lot at the time I expect!), and importantly how much diligence was done by him.
Maybe the lesson to be had is don't fcuk around with stuff that you aren't entirely at one with and especially deals that have a social aspect attaching to them like community football clubs, Irrespective of the apparent riches to be gained.
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« Reply #679 on: July 26, 2021, 16:33:31 pm »

I'm pleased that there hasn't been too much opinion from the Trust just information that they regard as being important for the masses to be made aware of.


There are no masses. Just a few sorts who caught a minnow and talked it up as a whale. As I said.. Idle hands and minds.
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