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New Trust statement on club finances

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Winslow Lee
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« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2021, 09:53:19 am »

I love how people moan about the club running at a loss and with almost the same breath moaning about the playing budget.
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« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2021, 09:54:13 am »

There was still the outstanding debt though CJ and they stopped splashing because they had run out of cash, hence the hullabaloo. At least that’s my interpretation anyway?
Ok then, so they speculated to accumulate? When that didn't work they sat back, tightened the purse strings, ran it on an even keel and waited to 'hook' the council? Does that show that you dont need to build up huge losses in running a league two football clubo not?  I dont know, I'm not a financial expert on any matters let alone those of football.
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« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2021, 10:02:52 am »

There was still the outstanding debt though CJ and they stopped splashing because they had run out of cash, hence the hullabaloo. At least that’s my interpretation anyway?

Didn't Cardoza sell Toney on the cheap because there were bills to be paid?

You only have to look at Bury and Macclesfield recently, and Swindon currently by the looks of it, to see what happens when the owner runs out of cash? I don't believe that this is the current position of NTFC?

The failure to get the land deal done will significantly change the financial landscape, for which we should then all be prepared, and for which I feel that the Trust needs to concentrate on.

My perception of current statements is that the Trust wants the land deal to fail, but for reasons I cannot fathom?
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« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2021, 10:06:50 am »

CJ, they went to the wall and we were days from extinction. That is no example on how to run the club. My take is they tightened the purse strings on an empty purse.
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« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2021, 10:13:28 am »

Oh my god, the Trust are trying to tell you that the club is VERY close to going to the wall and still you slag them off!


Are they? I would have thought that any owner funded business that operates on, at best, a breakeven situation is always on the brink if those owners run out of cash?

Are there any active adverse creditor reports, or current or pending CCJs against the club?

If not, could you explain your thinking on this please? Is it that you are worried that DB is going to pull the plug on any additional funding if needed?

I don't see anything in any media where we aren't paying the bills, or player wages, unlike this;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57693793

I would be worrying a LOT more if this scenario were our current situation.  Sad
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« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2021, 10:25:08 am »

Still a bit confused about 5U Sport and genuinely don’t understand the point?

Either they paid to own the club, we’re stopped from doing it and were paid the money back, so what?

They never paid the money in which case the club reverted to the original owners, so what?

5U Sport paid the money and the owners kept the money and the club. This would leave them open to legal challenge in the courts which has never materialised since the deal collapsed. This therefore is probably highly unlikely. What reasonable explanation would there be for 5U Sport not make an application to the courts?

Frankly my thoughts are so what to all of it? It just appears to me that the board of The Trust are slinging any bit of mud they can find about hoping some will stick. This is in a desperate attempt to demonstrate some impropriety and discredit the owners. However, that’s absolutely fair enough the club should be open to scrutiny and be prepared to respond to genuine allegations and concerns.

This should also apply to the Trust as well. Therefore the Trust have stated many supporters and members are asking these questions. Well how many is it?

What exactly are Trust accusing the owners of?

What should the owners have done instead to run the club, complete the stand and avoid any debt to any party?

As stated even allowing for inflation the owners have probably put more into the club than any other in the club’s entire history. Comparatively at this point why exactly are they considered failures in light of this.

Show your hand or fold and get off the pot basically.

One thing that comes to mind with regards to 5U is that they didn't have enough friends in high places to get the go ahead for the foriegn investment, or they didn't pay of the right party members and had to back out.
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« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2021, 10:56:13 am »

I do agree but my main thrust was that the redevelopment plans are ten years old and imo outdated.

Let’s be honest if as a club going forwards the limit of our ambitions is to dream of an 8,000 seater stadium that is really embarrassing.



Don't disagree - I just say get this bit done asap
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« Reply #67 on: July 04, 2021, 12:58:16 pm »

Oh my god, the Trust are trying to tell you that the club is VERY close to going to the wall and still you slag them off!
KT shows you some fûcking CGIs he had for the last couple of years and you think he’s the fûckin messiah.
The enabling land around Sixseats is the only way in the short term that we could expand the ground and get 24/7 revenue from conference facilities and a hotel.
You lot would be happy for the current owners to bodge up the hideous east stand, up our debt to £10m, pay it off with the land profit and the fuçk off with what’s left?
Unbelievable

So if you first statement is true - (and no factual evidence to back that up) - how do the trust's statements help the situation - like it or not the "land deal" would likely be the best redemption for your first point but all I can see the trust statements doing is dividing the fan base and due to the constant subtle implication of inappropriate ownership of the club make the council less likely to finalise the deal - paradoxically the trust, not only are lacking tangible alternatives may, by their action precipitate the demise of our club. 
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« Reply #68 on: July 04, 2021, 13:14:16 pm »

So if you first statement is true - (and no factual evidence to back that up) - how do the trust's statements help the situation - like it or not the "land deal" would likely be the best redemption for your first point but all I can see the trust statements doing is dividing the fan base and due to the constant subtle implication of inappropriate ownership of the club make the council less likely to finalise the deal - paradoxically the trust, not only are lacking tangible alternatives may, by their action precipitate the demise of our club. 

If the trust (as Manny and others elude too) have significant information on the situation then publish and be dammed - but currently and its only my opinion but their behaviour neither represents me as a member of the football club they claim to represent. Rather than speaking directly to their members the trust have chosen to issue Press Releases without any consultation - why then should anyone bother to be a trust member - no consultation and "information" distributed equally and at the same time as the general public - irrespective of the matters in hand this is not the correct process for any organisation.


I'd like the trust to state to simply write to all members as to what what their executable objective is - but some nebulous soundbite on representing the fans and the interests of the club doesn't cut it for me
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« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2021, 13:23:08 pm »

So if you first statement is true - (and no factual evidence to back that up) - how do the trust's statements help the situation - like it or not the "land deal" would likely be the best redemption for your first point but all I can see the trust statements doing is dividing the fan base and due to the constant subtle implication of inappropriate ownership of the club make the council less likely to finalise the deal - paradoxically the trust, not only are lacking tangible alternatives may, by their action precipitate the demise of our club. 

This is a good post......in the main! I will take exception to the point that implies that the Trust are likely to precipitate the demise of the club though!!

It is not the Trust that didn't make the improvements to the stand in 2015-16 as was implied.....it wasn't the Trust who then blamed the delay on the finishing of the stand on the lease issue....it wasn't the Trust who, upon formalising the leases in 2018/19 and correcting the oversights identified still did not build the stand.

The Club has backed itself into a corner now, or rather the owners have backed the club into a corner, and as some are saying perhaps the only way out is to get the land deal done and allow the current owners to pay back their loans to themselves and disappear stage right.

However, if you believe that the Trusts "revelations" about the monies are not known already by the Council then you're a bit naïve! They will carry out more due diligence than the Trust ever could. If the deal fails its because the deal is not right, primarily for the Council and its tax payers and secondarily for the football club.

Ask yourself why the deal never got through NBC....essentially the same deal that is now on the table with WNC. Unfortunately for the club the major players on the council have moved from NBC to WNC, including the leader. That is why the feeling of those who claim to be in the know is that this deal will not get past the Council anyway......

The Club, or CDNL if you prefer, has been sitting on the leases for the past 6 years and there has been no progress. The Council have the option to take back the leases in just over two years, and then they will be free to sell the land for redevelopment themselves, thereby gaining 100% of the value of the land, rather than the 50% split that is proposed at present.

What would be the best option, the value for money deal for the council? Develop now and claim 50%? Sell the leasehold now to CDNL with land prices in the depressed state they are? Or wait a couple of years when the economy should hopefully pick up and then sell the land themselves for redevelopment to the highest bidder.

And all the time this goes on the Club owes nearly £7m to its owners, and the only prospect of them ever seeing that money is to get a deal which suits them (including the £3m payback on any work carried out on the East stand before the Council even gets to see a penny)

Finally, this line appears in the Clubs own literature/press release regarding the proposed East Stand development.... "Football Club will take on any development risk"  Is it just me who is slightly concerned about statements like that?
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« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2021, 13:33:45 pm »

GPC, your not daft and I respect your views. In an ideal world what is your personal view on how this should go?

What standard should the stand be finished to?

How should the debt be repaid?

What financial conditions should the club operate under if it is to not be in debt to the owners, operate within its means?

What would be the acceptable circumstances in which the owners embark on an exit strategy, because I don’t believe for one minute you think it’s a pound?

If the owners have pocketed moneys from the 5U Sport deal surreptitiously, what reasonable explanation could there be for that not being challenged in the courts? Otherwise it either got paid back or was never paid in the first place and what would be the issue with either of those outcomes?

As I have stated even when accounting for inflation, I suspect the owners have put more capital into the club than any owners in the club’s history. Given this comparative measure, is the amount of criticism really justified?

I accept you are in a challenging position also being on the Board, so if you feel you don’t want to answer at this point then fair enough. I only ask for the sake of debate and don’t intend to try and put you in an awkward situation.
Hahahahaha the owners haven’t put capital into the club they have loaned it FFS and given they aren’t going to write it off they will expect that capital back.
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« Reply #71 on: July 04, 2021, 13:35:39 pm »


5471 relentless anti KT/DB posts yet NOT ONE post giving a tangible alternative to the current situation. Try living in the real world and not hide behind a keyboard with only theory!

Yes I want a 14,00 seater Stadium with Executive Boxes, Conference Centre, Hotel and our own training ground BUT I do not know how to finance it without a giant sugar Daddy (or Mummy).

I won't hold my breath waiting for your tangible alternative, welcome to the real world!
There is £millions of pounds worth of enabling land, sometimes when you haven’t got a clue about something it’s best to be quiet 🤫
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« Reply #72 on: July 04, 2021, 13:40:34 pm »

Good points - my thoughts follow in red
This is a good post......in the main! I will take exception to the point that implies that the Trust are likely to precipitate the demise of the club though!! Obviously I hope not but I think we would all be concerned if the land deal doesn't go through

It is not the Trust that didn't make the improvements to the stand in 2015-16 as was implied.....it wasn't the Trust who then blamed the delay on the finishing of the stand on the lease issue....it wasn't the Trust who, upon formalising the leases and correcting the oversights identified still did not build the stand. Absolutely correct and I too think KT has been both slow and lacked transparency on the progress (or lack of it) on all these issues

The Club has backed itself into a corner now, or rather the owners have backed the club into a corner, and as some are saying perhaps the only way out is to get the land deal done and allow the current owners to pay back their loans to themselves and disappear stage right. Agreed but unfortunately and I know this will annoy some people but from a financial perspective the club is the owners

However, if you believe that the Trusts "revelations" about the monies are not known already by the Council then you're a bit naïve! They will carry out more due diligence than the Trust ever could. If the deal fails its because the deal is not right, primarily for the Council and its tax payers and secondarily for the football club. Again agreed - I doubt if there is a single aspect of the revelations that were not known - the council were historically badly burnt and their due diligence processes one would think have been massively overhauled

Ask yourself why the deal never got through NBC....essentially the same deal that is now on the table with WNC. Unfortunately for the club the major players on the council have moved from NBC to WNC, including the leader. That is why the feeling of those who claim to be in the know is that this deal will not get past the Council anyway......Yes - its a big concern

The Club, or CDNL if you prefer, has been sitting on the leases for the past 6 years and there has been no progress. The Council have the option to take back the leases in just over two years, and then they will be free to sell the land for redevelopment themselves, thereby gaining 100% of the value of the land, rather than the 50% split that is proposed at present. as with previous point

What would be the best option, the value for money deal for the council? Develop now and claim 50%? Sell the leasehold now to CDNL with land prices in the depressed state they are? Or wait a couple of years when the economy should hopefully pick up and then sell the land themselves for redevelopment to the highest bidder. On the face of it they would wait but I don't pretend to know the terms of a lease buy back and without that knowledge not possible to accurately assess

And all the time this goes on the Club owes nearly £7m to its owners, and the only prospect of them ever seeing that money is to get a deal which suits them (including the £3m payback on any work carried out on the East stand before the Council even gets to see a penny) This one is a bit of a circular argument and back to my first point - yes of course (and with the additional East Stand Development) the debt is closer to £10 million but the argument remains valid - very unlikely someone is going to buy the club and assume the debt (The Trust's offer a little bit short!) and if KT & DB declare the club bankrupt they definitely get nothing back

Finally, this line appears in the Clubs own literature/press release regarding the proposed East Stand development.... "Football Club will take on any development risk"  Is it just me who is slightly concerned about statements like that?

I completely understand the concerns here but surely whatever the reservation the best option is for a land deal to go ahead - I currently see no other options so therefore shouldn't the entire fanbase be pulling together to try to get that outcome?
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« Reply #73 on: July 04, 2021, 13:46:07 pm »

Hahahahaha the owners haven’t put capital into the club they have loaned it FFS and given they aren’t going to write it off they will expect that capital back.


I'm surprised - you profess to be a bit of a businessman but virtually all "investment" of this nature is via a mechanism of director loans

......maybe you could give me a couple of scenarios where they could actually get that capital back - I can think of 2 - one possible the other most unlikely.

One might suggest historically such monies were recovered by theft but I think that option has probably disappeared  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #74 on: July 04, 2021, 13:48:48 pm »

There is £millions of pounds worth of enabling land, sometimes when you haven’t got a clue about something it’s best to be quiet 🤫

...........apparently a reliable source on here suggests it is £100 million  Wink
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« Reply #75 on: July 04, 2021, 13:49:30 pm »

I'm surprised - you profess to be a bit of a businessman but virtually all "investment" of this nature is via a mechanism of director loans

......maybe you could give me a couple of scenarios where they could actually get that capital back - I can think of 2 - one possible the other most unlikely.

One might suggest historically such monies were recovered by theft but I think that option has probably disappeared  Roll Eyes
They are getting their capital back from the land deal all £10m. Then they will be off with half of what’s left.
Do you think that’s a good deal for the club?
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« Reply #76 on: July 04, 2021, 13:51:29 pm »

...........apparently a reliable source on here suggests it is £100 million  Wink
Cardoza was offered £29m in 2014 but he turned it down because it was massively undervalued.
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« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2021, 14:03:18 pm »

The thing is Grange, as you rightly point out, there's nothing in the Trust's latest statement that the council won't already know. So once again I'm left scratching my head at what this statement was supposed to achieve; all it's likely to do is raise questions amongst the wider electorate who won't look any deeper than the headline but will then be left with the impression that our current owners are following in the footsteps of the previous ones.

The council, rightly, has to make sure this deal is the right one for the town. Stirring the pot by throwing out dubious looking numbers without any context increases the public scrutiny of the deal, which in turn ensures the council will have to take even more time analysing the deal because they have yet another set of watertight justifications they have to pull together before they can agree to anything.

So again, what was the intended motivation for throwing this statement out there? I just genuinely don't see how the Trust thought this would help anything. It just muddies the waters even further.  The Trust just seem to act in the moment with no long term strategic thought. They need to learn that the best way to clear muddy waters is to do nothing and let it settle, not by wading in to it with your size 10 wellies.
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« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2021, 14:12:50 pm »

GPC, your not daft and I respect your views. In an ideal world what is your personal view on how this should go?

What standard should the stand be finished to?

How should the debt be repaid?

What financial conditions should the club operate under if it is to not be in debt to the owners, operate within its means?

What would be the acceptable circumstances in which the owners embark on an exit strategy, because I don’t believe for one minute you think it’s a pound?

If the owners have pocketed moneys from the 5U Sport deal surreptitiously, what reasonable explanation could there be for that not being challenged in the courts? Otherwise it either got paid back or was never paid in the first place and what would be the issue with either of those outcomes?

As I have stated even when accounting for inflation, I suspect the owners have put more capital into the club than any owners in the club’s history. Given this comparative measure, is the amount of criticism really justified?

I accept you are in a challenging position also being on the Board, so if you feel you don’t want to answer at this point then fair enough. I only ask for the sake of debate and don’t intend to try and put you in an awkward situation.

No worries Melly.....unfortunately the CLub is not starting from the position where I would like it to start from! The answers i'd give if we weren't £7m in debt to our owners would be different to those i'd give now!

What standard? TBH i'd probably do without the boxes at the present time...... simple maths would say that 18 boxes selling for £10k a season each would gross 180k....take off running and operating costs and VAT whats left? 80-100k a season tops? To coin a phrase I don't believe its "financially prudent" to build them as they're not going to pay themselves back for at least 10 years. I would agree thought that conferencing/banqueting suites would, if marketed well, bring in more money than the boxes.
I would certainly like to see a capacity increase in the ground, more than is being proposed currently. With a capacity increase then more imaginative marketing could take place to attract fans, and dareisay even a reduction in ticket prices across the board would bring in more fans (something that Bradford did for example)

Operating within its means? Well football needs a reset in my opinion. Wages must be brought down across the board....therefore costs will go down and profits will go up. Like I said though that has to be across the board. There would be no point in us cutting a million off our wage bill if everyone else stayed the same.
Some clubs have managed to turn a profit.....not very many granted.... but we should be looking at what Lincoln did....how after averaging 2000 and going down to non-league did they haul themselves back into the league with gates of 10000 and challenging for promotion to the Championship. When we had those two games there a couple of years ago (in the FA Cup and League close together) what struck me was how much was actually going on around the ground on matchday, how their program was full of support from local companies, how the fans have got behind the team.....if they can do it....!!

Exit strategy? Unfortunately we are backed into a corner and the only way out of it is for the owners to get their deal with the council, get their debts back and disappear, and yes, once they've paid themselves the £7m back then why not a pound? There may even be some land left for the club to profit from rather than the owners.

The 5USports thing has always puzzled me! On paper it seems like the owners sold out for £6.68m, of which they personally made £1.1m each. There is no paperwork registered anywhere to say that they "bought" back the shares, only a charge registered with Companies house which was satisfied when they acquired the shares back in repayment for a £1.1m loan that BDJ made to the club in January 2018. If a legal charge was made and in effect 5U defaulted there would be no comeback at all.....what could they do? They didn't come up with the money so lost their shares. No legal grounds for a challenge despite this article from the end of March 2018....
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/chinese-investors-claim-they-are-still-major-stakeholders-cobblers-despite-apparent-split-309497

What was interesting from that is that they claimed they had bought 100% of the shares, not the 60% reported by the club, and that they provided TWO share purchase certificates (not the one reported by the club) to the value of "around £4.3m" (which when added to the 1.1m each also paid to KT and DB brings you nicely up to the reported £6.6m total figure)
 
Capital I don't dispute that they have put in more money/capital/call it what you will, but should them putting in over £6m and us still being a League 2 club with a still not finished stand be celebrated? What other business could you pump so much money into for so little output? And if that 6m is only the money they got from the Chinese and in effect is not "new money" then it changes the picture slightly IMO.

I've tried to answer those questions based on my personal feelings rather than with my Trust hat on......there is obviously some crossover but that's to be expected I guess.

As a fan of Northampton Town Football Club I can't wait for the day when the football club is about the football club and its fans, rather than being a sideshow to a land deal. We've been in this boat for far too long now, under the Cardozas and now with the present incumbents. Almost 20 years of little progress and big distractions....all a bit tiring!
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« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2021, 14:21:05 pm »

CJ, they went to the wall and we were days from extinction. That is no example on how to run the club. My take is they tightened the purse strings on an empty purse.
I was talking about the period in the middle of their tenure, after they had given up on Championship football and before they skillfully engineered the loan, it's disappearance together with the asset stripping of anything not screwed down, and the subsequent deal with the present owners.
My point remains, I'm unconvinced a club with our pre covid turnover needed to have gotten itself into the 6 million pounds worth of debt that it has with nothing to show for it, but I  accept that it was absolutely the owners prerogative to do so.
Just my opinion.
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