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New Trust statement on club finances

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« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2021, 14:46:55 pm »

Do you think that’s a good deal for the club?

Not particularly but what else is on offer?

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« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2021, 14:50:03 pm »

The thing is Grange, as you rightly point out, there's nothing in the Trust's latest statement that the council won't already know. So once again I'm left scratching my head at what this statement was supposed to achieve; all it's likely to do is raise questions amongst the wider electorate who won't look any deeper than the headline but will then be left with the impression that our current owners are following in the footsteps of the previous ones.

The council, rightly, has to make sure this deal is the right one for the town. Stirring the pot by throwing out dubious looking numbers without any context increases the public scrutiny of the deal, which in turn ensures the council will have to take even more time analysing the deal because they have yet another set of watertight justifications they have to pull together before they can agree to anything.

So again, what was the intended motivation for throwing this statement out there? I just genuinely don't see how the Trust thought this would help anything. It just muddies the waters even further.  The Trust just seem to act in the moment with no long term strategic thought. They need to learn that the best way to clear muddy waters is to do nothing and let it settle, not by wading in to it with your size 10 wellies.

Very well put.
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« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2021, 15:04:09 pm »

There is £millions of pounds worth of enabling land, sometimes when you haven’t got a clue about something it’s best to be quiet 🤫
But you don't!
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« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2021, 15:12:31 pm »

I'm surprised - you profess to be a bit of a businessman but virtually all "investment" of this nature is via a mechanism of director loans

......maybe you could give me a couple of scenarios where they could actually get that capital back - I can think of 2 - one possible the other most unlikely.

One might suggest historically such monies were recovered by theft but I think that option has probably disappeared  Roll Eyes
In the context of the quote I was referring to, my statement is correct.
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« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2021, 15:16:36 pm »

In the context of the quote I was referring to, my statement is correct.

…. but back to the actual questions

What are possible scenarios where directors recover their loans?
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« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2021, 15:25:01 pm »

Oh my god, the Trust are trying to tell you that the club is VERY close to going to the wall and still you slag them off!
KT shows you some fûcking CGIs he had for the last couple of years and you think he’s the fûckin messiah.
The enabling land around Sixseats is the only way in the short term that we could expand the ground and get 24/7 revenue from conference facilities and a hotel.
You lot would be happy for the current owners to bodge up the hideous east stand, up our debt to £10m, pay it off with the land profit and the fuçk off with what’s left?
Unbelievable

In my first words, it is pathetic.

It highlights absolutely nothing that is not already in the public domain and common knowledge. It offers no alternatives. It is merely a commentary on the obvious.

The whole world could tell you, that like most clubs we are teetering on the edge financially. But they can't/won’t find a buyer, they certainly won’t sell it for a quid, and they are hell bent on pursuing the land. So yes… Another exercise in stating the obvious, albeit from a well meaning source, offers absolutely no solace.

We was promised a big reveal, huge revelation, but most of all the epic unveiling of the much fabled “truth and oil” tale of wholesale corruption. What we got, was a wet fart and all the gusto of an asthmatic sloth.  

Frankly I am totally underwhelmed. But…. Thank you for telling me that I should be relying on the Trust as an aide memoir, rather than an innovative alternative to the status quo.
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« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2021, 16:22:47 pm »

Hahahahaha the owners haven’t put capital into the club they have loaned it FFS and given they aren’t going to write it off they will expect that capital back.

That’s what investors do though, what are peoples realistic expectations?
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« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2021, 16:33:21 pm »

No worries Melly.....unfortunately the CLub is not starting from the position where I would like it to start from! The answers i'd give if we weren't £7m in debt to our owners would be different to those i'd give now!

What standard? TBH i'd probably do without the boxes at the present time...... simple maths would say that 18 boxes selling for £10k a season each would gross 180k....take off running and operating costs and VAT whats left? 80-100k a season tops? To coin a phrase I don't believe its "financially prudent" to build them as they're not going to pay themselves back for at least 10 years. I would agree thought that conferencing/banqueting suites would, if marketed well, bring in more money than the boxes.
I would certainly like to see a capacity increase in the ground, more than is being proposed currently. With a capacity increase then more imaginative marketing could take place to attract fans, and dareisay even a reduction in ticket prices across the board would bring in more fans (something that Bradford did for example)

Operating within its means? Well football needs a reset in my opinion. Wages must be brought down across the board....therefore costs will go down and profits will go up. Like I said though that has to be across the board. There would be no point in us cutting a million off our wage bill if everyone else stayed the same.
Some clubs have managed to turn a profit.....not very many granted.... but we should be looking at what Lincoln did....how after averaging 2000 and going down to non-league did they haul themselves back into the league with gates of 10000 and challenging for promotion to the Championship. When we had those two games there a couple of years ago (in the FA Cup and League close together) what struck me was how much was actually going on around the ground on matchday, how their program was full of support from local companies, how the fans have got behind the team.....if they can do it....!!

Exit strategy? Unfortunately we are backed into a corner and the only way out of it is for the owners to get their deal with the council, get their debts back and disappear, and yes, once they've paid themselves the £7m back then why not a pound? There may even be some land left for the club to profit from rather than the owners.

The 5USports thing has always puzzled me! On paper it seems like the owners sold out for £6.68m, of which they personally made £1.1m each. There is no paperwork registered anywhere to say that they "bought" back the shares, only a charge registered with Companies house which was satisfied when they acquired the shares back in repayment for a £1.1m loan that BDJ made to the club in January 2018. If a legal charge was made and in effect 5U defaulted there would be no comeback at all.....what could they do? They didn't come up with the money so lost their shares. No legal grounds for a challenge despite this article from the end of March 2018....
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/chinese-investors-claim-they-are-still-major-stakeholders-cobblers-despite-apparent-split-309497

What was interesting from that is that they claimed they had bought 100% of the shares, not the 60% reported by the club, and that they provided TWO share purchase certificates (not the one reported by the club) to the value of "around £4.3m" (which when added to the 1.1m each also paid to KT and DB brings you nicely up to the reported £6.6m total figure)
 
Capital I don't dispute that they have put in more money/capital/call it what you will, but should them putting in over £6m and us still being a League 2 club with a still not finished stand be celebrated? What other business could you pump so much money into for so little output? And if that 6m is only the money they got from the Chinese and in effect is not "new money" then it changes the picture slightly IMO.

I've tried to answer those questions based on my personal feelings rather than with my Trust hat on......there is obviously some crossover but that's to be expected I guess.

As a fan of Northampton Town Football Club I can't wait for the day when the football club is about the football club and its fans, rather than being a sideshow to a land deal. We've been in this boat for far too long now, under the Cardozas and now with the present incumbents. Almost 20 years of little progress and big distractions....all a bit tiring!
Thanks GPC, some reasonable points, not quite my view on some but reasonable just the same. There is one that I think is a bit unrealistic though. To expect a businessman to put 7 million in over a 6 or 7 year period and then take a pound return on it isn’t really viable is it. Hardly a great advert for attracting new investment either, I’m really concerned about the post Thomas era though,
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« Reply #88 on: July 04, 2021, 16:43:31 pm »

I really don’t mean this as a dig at the Trust. But do they genuinely operate on a level of arrogance, that really affords them the status to knock out that whimper of a statement as news, without the obvious expectation that it would meet at best indifference, and at worst frustration and anger.

It riles me so much, that some people have the sheer temerity to just assume that we are all basking in ignorance. They are so wide of the mark, they are in the next county. We know the club owes perilous amounts of money. We are ALL concerned about this. This concern is not the preserve of a select few who have formed a mutual appreciation society, rather than a representative body. It concerns us all.

KT and DB have had designs on the land from the start. That was ALWAYS a given. They can build whoever they want. We ALL know that. The club has millions of debt stacked against it. We ALL knew that. Everything isn’t rosey. We ALL know that. There’s a bit of a trend developing here.. But the one answer none of us know, is what the fcuk to do about it.
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« Reply #89 on: July 04, 2021, 16:49:48 pm »

But you don't!
Mate honestly, you really don’t have a clue.............do you?
Seriously have you read and understood what the trust have posted, no need for insults, just answer the question, then we can have a sensible debate.
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« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2021, 16:55:31 pm »

That’s what investors do though, what are peoples realistic expectations?
That’s the whole point Melly, people are talking about KT and DB investing their money in the club, they are loaning it and will get it back from the land deal.
That money is the clubs, do you think £10m debt is good value for a few exec boxes and 200 seats?
I have no problem in them making money, but when it’s so much in the favour of the investors it’s not right.
All the Trust are doing is lobbying the council to get the best deal for the club.
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« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2021, 17:08:30 pm »


All the Trust are doing is lobbying the council to get the best deal for the club.


I don't dispute that. I've never disputed the Trust act with the best intentions, I just don't think they are particularly astute to the point of naivety.

Unfortunately the most likely result of their meddling isn't "the best deal", it's "no deal", and then we really will be f***ed.
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« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2021, 17:12:12 pm »

I don't dispute that. I've never disputed the Trust act with the best intentions, I just don't think they are particularly astute to the point of naivety.

Unfortunately the most likely result of their meddling isn't "the best deal", it's "no deal", and then we really will be ****.
I really don’t think KT and DB will walk, they will never get their £7m loan back so I hope the council squeeze the  best deal for the club out of them.
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« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2021, 17:40:09 pm »

I really don’t think KT and DB will walk, they will never get their £7m loan back so I hope the council squeeze the  best deal for the club out of them.

The council (rightly) won't give a toss about the best deal for the club. They will look at the best deal for themselves and their constituents. Yes, there's a certain kudos in having a football league club and I don't think the council will do anything to actively harm the club, but you have to look at the history here. First they built the ground and were then rubbished for being unambitious, then there's the whole loan debacle after which they frankly pulled a blinder in getting us out of the mire, for which they are still dealing with the repercussions.

Every time they've put themselves out there for us they've been stung and I'd be amazed if they were prepared to do so yet again.
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« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2021, 18:20:38 pm »

But the one answer none of us know, is what the fcuk to do about it.


.....or indeed in most cases can't do anything about it -  so unfortunately the preserve of a vocal few is to be critical of those in a position to do something (absolutely their right), but without offering any viable plan B.
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« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2021, 18:32:14 pm »

That’s the whole point Melly, people are talking about KT and DB investing their money in the club, they are loaning it and will get it back from the land deal.What part of Director loans do you not understand - you repeatedly don't answer any question when asked how they can be recovered because you know full well there are only two realistic options - the land deal (which you don't like because you speculate they are making too much money for themselves or someone buys the club and takes over the debt which you know is unlikely - there is no other option on them ever getting their money back but there is the option of them walking, getting nothing and the club dies so until you and your cohorts come up with a viable plan I'll stick with supporting (and agreed, a far from perfect) land deal
That money is the clubs, do you think £10m debt is good value for a few exec boxes and 200 seats?Of course not but you are deliberately making misleading comments because you know the East Stand is costed at about 3 million the rest is the operating costs for the last 6 years
I have no problem in them making money, but when it’s so much in the favour of the investors it’s not right.Fair point but you, me nor the trust have any idea how much money is potentially being made
All the Trust are doing is lobbying the council to get the best deal for the club.Issuing a couple of Sh!te stirring press releases is not my definition of lobbying - if they are doing such "offline" why no consultation with the membership

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« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2021, 18:37:43 pm »

I believe that the best outcome for everyone concerned, is that the 'deal' goes through, stand sorted prior to land development commencing, owner debt gets cleared and is debt free....then profit is split 2 ways. As I see it, there is absolutely no way that anyone can control which way the football clubs 'share of the profits' goes, ie on more development/players or in the owners personal account. If it stays in the clubs accounts, then it makes no difference given those accounts are controlled by the owners who...own the football club!

So for me, its a simple case of going round in circles. If the deal doesn't go through, then we remain 7 million in debt or whatever it is, with the East Stand remaining as it is. Thereafter, what happens, we wont know until that time arrives...

Im not convinced that publicly scrutinising the deal on the table is going to achieve anything, other than a stalling of a decision being made (potentially).

We are in the hands of KT and DB, some people don't like that, some people do like that, some people are indifferent. But the fact remains, they hold the keys to the future of NTFC. They haven't got any history of 'wrong doing', so as I type this I'm clearly alot more relaxed about the situation than the Trust is. That doesn't make me right or wrong. I *think* on occasions some people are determined to convince all and sundry that we are deep high in the sh1t, because thats how they personally view things.

Backofthenet sums up where Im at, I could have written all of his posts. Probably not with his high level of grammar though!  Grin



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« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2021, 18:42:27 pm »

I believe that the best outcome for everyone concerned, is that the 'deal' goes through, stand sorted prior to land development commencing, owner debt gets cleared and is debt free....then profit is split 2 ways. As I see it, there is absolutely no way that anyone can control which way the football clubs 'share of the profits' goes, ie on more development/players or in the owners personal account. If it stays in the clubs accounts, then it makes no difference given those accounts are controlled by the owners who...own the football club!

So for me, its a simple case of going round in circles. If the deal doesn't go through, then we remain 7 million in debt or whatever it is, with the East Stand remaining as it is. Thereafter, what happens, we wont know until that time arrives...

Im not convinced that publicly scrutinising the deal on the table is going to achieve anything, other than a stalling of a decision being made (potentially).

We are in the hands of KT and DB, some people don't like that, some people do like that, some people are indifferent. But the fact remains, they hold the keys to the future of NTFC. They haven't got any history of 'wrong doing', so as I type this I'm clearly alot more relaxed about the situation than the Trust is. That doesn't make me right or wrong. I *think* on occasions some people are determined to convince all and sundry that we are deep high in the sh1t, because thats how they personally view things.

Backofthenet sums up where Im at, I could have written all of his posts. Probably not with his high level of grammar though!  Grin





I was just thinking how similar this is to my view and then I reached the last paragraph and saw we both recognised that!  I think you're being hard on yourself over your grammar though.  Grin
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« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2021, 19:36:04 pm »


I am not sure why you would put anything to the vote of the trust members, I would say that 90% don’t understand what’s going on, that’s obvious from the comments on here. Its totally understandable as well as it is complicated to say the least.
What would your thoughts be if KT and DB hadn’t spent a penny of their own money?
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE £6.7M CHINESE MONEY?
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« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2021, 20:08:57 pm »


WHAT HAPPENED TO THE £6.7M CHINESE MONEY?

Funny money mate - yes there’s some reference to shares being bought and sold but as I’m sure you know if these are unlisted shares the reality of the finances are somewhat murky and may or may not have any value.

For me this whole thing is not a battle about whose right or wrong - I simply want to move forward and despite it being far from the redevelopment we all hoped for a deal on the land, the dreadful East Stand at least improved- and possibly the club deficit reduced are all positives for me and frankly if all that happens i don’t care if KT and DB make a little or a lot of money- at the end of the day they were the guys that were there 6 years ago seeing an opportunity.
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