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New Trust statement on club finances

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Terryfenwickatemyhamster
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« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2021, 20:31:26 pm »

What would your thoughts be if KT and DB hadn’t spent a penny of their own money?
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE £6.7M CHINESE MONEY?

I would think… How astute of them.

I would think… So what

If I thought as a few do, that something dodgy has gone on… Notify the authorities. Present my evidence and let them decide.

What I wouldn’t do, is spend months playing Chinese whispers (excuse the pun). Pussy footing around on message boards and in WMC's peddling bollox about it. I wouldn’t call journalists from newspapers and TV stations trying to get them to do my dirty work. I wouldn’t sit with and call councillors and try umpteenth times to discredit someone.
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« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2021, 20:39:16 pm »

Agreement deal on the land development is achieved between the club and the council.
East Stand is completed.
Land is redeveloped.
KT and DB are repaid their £10m+ 'investor' loan, from the club share of the land deal, when completed.
Club has nil debt.
Club receive increased income from the East Stand facilities, the increased seating and the ongoing club share of the land deal subsequent income.

It's not a quick fix, how long will it take to achieve that following the initial Land development agreement? (the start line)
I would guess that we are looking at anything up to 5 years? Or am I being optimistic?
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« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2021, 21:09:49 pm »



But
Agreement deal on the land development is achieved between the club and the council.
East Stand is completed.
Land is redeveloped.
KT and DB are repaid their £10m+ 'investor' loan, from the club share of the land deal, when completed.
Club has nil debt.
Club receive increased income from the East Stand facilities, the increased seating and the ongoing club share of the land deal subsequent income.

It's not a quick fix, how long will it take to achieve that following the initial Land development agreement? (the start line)
I would guess that we are looking at anything up to 5 years? Or am I being optimistic?


I am beyond clueless when it comes to all of this, but if the result of the land sale / development is that KT/DB get their money back and I assume a small profit and that some of this money is also used to extend the capacity of the ground (away end I assume) would that not be an ideal result?

No idea how much the land / development is worth and or could generate though.


Also I am sure that we are losing 1m per season currently. Assuming we have roughly 26 home games a season with cups included, thats just under 40k per game. At an average of £20 per ticket (not taking into consideration the kids that go for free etc) we would need to bring in 1900 extra fans per home game as it stands to break even. Considering some may spend more at the ground also we could drop the number down, how can we attract more fans to the ground? Sadly a winning team on its own does not seem to do it.

When I go to Sixfields to watch a game I dont go that early before kick off, dont spend cash at the stadium. I like the idea of fan parks etc but what as fans could we put together to increase bums on seats and the spend of us fans when at the ground?

Didnt know where to put this and it may have been covered elsewhere, apologies if so?
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« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2021, 21:37:17 pm »

I would think… How astute of them.

I would think… So what

If I thought as a few do, that something dodgy has gone on… Notify the authorities. Present my evidence and let them decide.

What I wouldn’t do, is spend months playing Chinese whispers (excuse the pun). **** footing around on message boards and in WMC's peddling bollox about it. I wouldn’t call journalists from newspapers and TV stations trying to get them to do my dirty work. I wouldn’t sit with and call councillors and try umpteenth times to discredit someone.
You seem to know fûcking everything in hindsight yet do fûck all about it !
I like you Tel but I really do but I don’t understand your bile for the Trust?
If they pîssed you off, god knows how many years ago just come out with it instead of pûssyfooting around on a message board trying to bad mouth them?
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« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2021, 22:43:07 pm »

That’s the whole point Melly, people are talking about KT and DB investing their money in the club, they are loaning it and will get it back from the land deal.
That money is the clubs, do you think £10m debt is good value for a few exec boxes and 200 seats?
I have no problem in them making money, but when it’s so much in the favour of the investors it’s not right.
All the Trust are doing is lobbying the council to get the best deal for the club.

Flip the scenario and view it from the opposite angle. The owners were not supporters and had no love for the club. They stepped in and debate over 5U aside have put in what will be 10 million over 7 years or so and countless man hours. Forgetting any emotional attachment to the club and as purely a business deal what would you be happy with? Given the risk involved and the unpredictability of sport to make it worth my while I would probably want the opportunity to make 3 times my initial outlay plus my money back, minimum. That’s 40 million, but it is of course subjective. What about you, if this was your money and it wasn’t a football club but something else what would you be happy with at the front end given the very real risk you could spunk the lot? However in their shoes it would be irrelevant by now because I would have had a heart attack.

Additionally people talk about the revenue the stand will generate. Well there is absolutely nothing that convinces me at this point that it will generate anything irrespective of what happens with the capacity. Filling Exec boxes on a Tuesday night against Sutton or Newport, no chance. Forget the extra seats for the same reason. GPC talks about Lincoln and fair enough. I think about statistical probabilities and according to that it ain’t happening. All this is likely to achieve is to improve the appearance of the ground at best and we have done our money making the place look nice, a bit like the wife’s new ornament. I would rather the money from any land deal was spent on stuff around the ground that would generate income and was structured so it couldn’t be sold. The only way to secure the future of the club is to diversify spread your risk and income streams otherwise you may end up looking at an empty shell earning nothing with us in the conference. Yes it’s possible we could move forward, but it’s also possible we could go backwards. Everybody is arguing about Thomas and Bower and what they will make. Well forget that, they are going to make as much as they possibly can and why wouldn’t they. Ultimately that is the main reason they are here at all. Meanwhile we are all arguing over a poxy stand that in all probability will achieve nothing and lead to nothing. We are a football club totally reliant on people through the turnstiles and handouts and that’s the problem right there. If the ground was the catalyst for success then Sunderland, MK you know the list, yes there are success stories but what’s most likely? If we really want to change and give ourselves a chance we have to be smarter and revolutionaries. We’ve got a Trust board obsessed with rejection, a support base obsessed with a folly and a club sitting right where it started with probably no improvement on the horizon. My prediction is that we are going to end up disappointed with the final outcome along with Thomas, Bower, the council and everyone else involved. That’s my view mate anyway, I get your frustration but I think we all are.

As a footnote I used to argue with my old man about the club all the way to the ground and back again. Managers, players, owners, the ground, the food, the pitch, all that money on a roof and you still get wet. I could go on and on. Still loved each other though, think about it?
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« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2021, 23:12:03 pm »

Flip the scenario and view it from the opposite angle. The owners were not supporters and had no love for the club. They stepped in and debate over 5U aside have put in what will be 10 million over 7 years or so and countless man hours. Forgetting any emotional attachment to the club and as purely a business deal what would you be happy with? Given the risk involved and the unpredictability of sport to make it worth my while I would probably want the opportunity to make 3 times my initial outlay plus my money back, minimum. That’s 40 million, but it is of course subjective. What about you, if this was your money and it wasn’t a football club but something else what would you be happy with at the front end given the very real risk you could spunk the lot? However in their shoes it would be irrelevant by now because I would have had a heart attack.

Additionally people talk about the revenue the stand will generate. Well there is absolutely nothing that convinces me at this point that it will generate anything irrespective of what happens with the capacity. Filling Exec boxes on a Tuesday night against Sutton or Newport, no chance. Forget the extra seats for the same reason. GPC talks about Lincoln and fair enough. I think about statistical probabilities and according to that it ain’t happening. All this is likely to achieve is to improve the appearance of the ground at best and we have done our money making the place look nice, a bit like the wife’s new ornament. I would rather the money from any land deal was spent on stuff around the ground that would generate income and was structured so it couldn’t be sold. The only way to secure the future of the club is to diversify spread your risk and income streams otherwise you may end up looking at an empty shell earning nothing with us in the conference. Yes it’s possible we could move forward, but it’s also possible we could go backwards. Everybody is arguing about Thomas and Bower and what they will make. Well forget that, they are going to make as much as they possibly can and why wouldn’t they. Ultimately that is the main reason they are here at all. Meanwhile we are all arguing over a poxy stand that in all probability will achieve nothing and lead to nothing. We are a football club totally reliant on people through the turnstiles and handouts and that’s the problem right there. If the ground was the catalyst for success then Sunderland, MK you know the list, yes there are success stories but what’s most likely? If we really want to change and give ourselves a chance we have to be smarter and revolutionaries. We’ve got a Trust board obsessed with rejection, a support base obsessed with a folly and a club sitting right where it started with probably no improvement on the horizon. My prediction is that we are going to end up disappointed with the final outcome along with Thomas, Bower, the council and everyone else involved. That’s my view mate anyway, I get your frustration but I think we all are.

As a footnote I used to argue with my old man about the club all the way to the ground and back again. Managers, players, owners, the ground, the food, the pitch, all that money on a roof and you still get wet. I could go on and on. Still loved each other though, think about it?

Can't argue with any of that really........
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« Reply #106 on: July 05, 2021, 00:48:29 am »

Can't argue with any of that really........
Sorry mate I’m on a roll now. Case study number 1. Sunderland, playing at Roker Park, atmospheric but dilapidated. Build the fabulous Stadium of Light to really kick on to the next level and well er……
Case study number 2. Wimbledon, playing in the Prem and even win the FA cup. Despite this move lock stock and barrel to MK and build a fabulous new ground to kick on to the next level and end up exactly in the same division as the Phoenix club that sprung up to replace them. Fcuk me, you couldn’t make it up.
No 3 Derby and Pride Park, well, er……
No 4 ……

I know there are positive examples but statistically what are the chances of the East Stand in any design you can think of taking the club forward. My advice before it’s too late is for the board of the Trust to settle their differences with the owners, sit down with the club and the council and be part of a process of regeneration for the area and get some assets that will generate real income as part of any deal again before it’s too late. The stand can wait.
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« Reply #107 on: July 05, 2021, 04:28:42 am »

Sorry mate I’m on a role now. Case study number 1. Sunderland, playing at Roker Park, atmospheric but dilapidated. Build the fabulous Stadium of Light to really kick on to the next level and well er……
Case study number 2. Wimbledon, playing in the Prem and even win the FA cup. Despite this move lock stock and barrel to MK and build a fabulous new ground to kick on to the next level and end up exactly in the same division as the Phoenix club that sprung up to replace them. Fcuk me, you couldn’t make it up.
No 3 Derby and Pride Park, well, er……
No 4 ……

I know there are positive examples but statistically what are the chances of the East Stand in any design you can think of taking the club forward. My advice before it’s too late is for the board of the Trust to settle their differences with the owners, sit down with the club and the council and be part of a process of regeneration for the area and get some assets that will generate real income as part of any deal again before it’s too late. The stand can wait.

Take a breath Melly. Having some pitch facing hospitality in the first time of the clubs history is not quite Stadium MK but we take your point.

The Trust - A few men and women with beer bellies, well intentioned but ultimately clueless, telling experienced business investors how to make money. Its all a bit of a joke really.

Apart form an emergency bus replacement and £10k to help out during covid, where are the millions the Trust have raised to take the club forward or even take it over? Grin

Surely they should create a successful business, aligned to the football club first before they tell others what to do with their money?

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« Reply #108 on: July 05, 2021, 06:34:48 am »

Take a breath Melly. Having some pitch facing hospitality in the first time of the clubs history is not quite Stadium MK but we take your point.

The Trust - A few men and women with beer bellies, well intentioned but ultimately clueless, telling experienced business investors how to make money. Its all a bit of a joke really.

Apart form an emergency bus replacement and £10k to help out during covid, where are the millions the Trust have raised to take the club forward or even take it over? Grin

Surely they should create a successful business, aligned to the football club first before they tell others what to do with their money?


Think about what you could do though Steven if the club were to have a stake in the development of the area. Hotel/casino, purpose built training and rehabilitation facilities for all 3 Northampton professional sports clubs who all work together. Why is it football, Rugby or Cricket when you can go to all 3? What about a season ticket offering for that with all 3 pushing to raise profiles, something to get business and sponsors excited. Specialist retail, restaurants owned by the club with match day functions. Quality food delivered direct to the back of stand collection points during the game all ordered via smart phone app, instead of gulping down boiled burgers and bovril that you have had to queue 20 minutes for at half time. The stage at the back of the North, the possibilities and options are endless. Make the land money work for the club and recruit some people to develop the alternative commercial opportunities. But no, it’s corporate boxes destined to be half used and plastic seats that won’t see an arse more than twice in 3 months. Fcuk me and people wonder why we’re going backwards, where’s the imagination and drive? The Club, Council, Trust, Saints and even the CCC could all work together along with the Council to regenerate the whole area. Given the proximity of the Saints to Sixfields and the land in question/money involved what a golden opportunity to kill about 8 birds with one stone. Do up the East Stand with a car park my ar5e, it will be a new bus stop next just to be really progressive. What a fcuking waste, and people wonder why we’re in debt. FFS do something different that will get people excited and get the Council up off their backsides to work positively and finally promote and progress the town. I’m going for a lie down.
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« Reply #109 on: July 05, 2021, 07:31:13 am »

I am not sure why you would put anything to the vote of the trust members, I would say that 90% don’t understand what’s going on, that’s obvious from the comments on here. Its totally understandable as well as it is complicated to say the least.
What would your thoughts be if KT and DB hadn’t spent a penny of their own money?
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE £6.7M CHINESE MONEY?

What Chinese money? The only money to come from China was to purchase shares, it was not money meant to be going to the club it was money for the selling share holders. Something happened with 5U Sports and they obviously could not meet the terms of the takeover and the shares were then sold back to the original shareholders. So you need to understand THERE NEVER WAS ANY CHINESE MONEY
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« Reply #110 on: July 05, 2021, 07:45:09 am »

Flip the scenario and view it from the opposite angle. The owners were not supporters and had no love for the club. They stepped in and debate over 5U aside have put in what will be 10 million over 7 years or so and countless man hours. Forgetting any emotional attachment to the club and as purely a business deal what would you be happy with? Given the risk involved and the unpredictability of sport to make it worth my while I would probably want the opportunity to make 3 times my initial outlay plus my money back, minimum. That’s 40 million, but it is of course subjective. What about you, if this was your money and it wasn’t a football club but something else what would you be happy with at the front end given the very real risk you could spunk the lot? However in their shoes it would be irrelevant by now because I would have had a heart attack.

Additionally people talk about the revenue the stand will generate. Well there is absolutely nothing that convinces me at this point that it will generate anything irrespective of what happens with the capacity. Filling Exec boxes on a Tuesday night against Sutton or Newport, no chance. Forget the extra seats for the same reason. GPC talks about Lincoln and fair enough. I think about statistical probabilities and according to that it ain’t happening. All this is likely to achieve is to improve the appearance of the ground at best and we have done our money making the place look nice, a bit like the wife’s new ornament. I would rather the money from any land deal was spent on stuff around the ground that would generate income and was structured so it couldn’t be sold. The only way to secure the future of the club is to diversify spread your risk and income streams otherwise you may end up looking at an empty shell earning nothing with us in the conference. Yes it’s possible we could move forward, but it’s also possible we could go backwards. Everybody is arguing about Thomas and Bower and what they will make. Well forget that, they are going to make as much as they possibly can and why wouldn’t they. Ultimately that is the main reason they are here at all. Meanwhile we are all arguing over a poxy stand that in all probability will achieve nothing and lead to nothing. We are a football club totally reliant on people through the turnstiles and handouts and that’s the problem right there. If the ground was the catalyst for success then Sunderland, MK you know the list, yes there are success stories but what’s most likely? If we really want to change and give ourselves a chance we have to be smarter and revolutionaries. We’ve got a Trust board obsessed with rejection, a support base obsessed with a folly and a club sitting right where it started with probably no improvement on the horizon. My prediction is that we are going to end up disappointed with the final outcome along with Thomas, Bower, the council and everyone else involved. That’s my view mate anyway, I get your frustration but I think we all are.

As a footnote I used to argue with my old man about the club all the way to the ground and back again. Managers, players, owners, the ground, the food, the pitch, all that money on a roof and you still get wet. I could go on and on. Still loved each other though, think about it?
So using the Wimbledon example, for those who cant contemplate the possibility of 'outsiders' with no connection to the club making a fortune off the back of it, the only alternative to getting this deal over the line is a Phoenix club, and because like water football clubs find their own level, that isn't too bad a thing?
Is there anything in the timeline of events to suggest the aims of KT and DB are not exactly what they suggest, that they will see that the club itself rather than just them as owners will benefit from a land deal? Does the non signing of leases by KT or the apparent lack of transparency suggest otherwise? Can the council, along with the Trust put in place the neccessary legal framework to ensure that the club itself will benefit or is that simply down to the generosity and honesty of the owners?
Is that where NTFC is at right now?
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« Reply #111 on: July 05, 2021, 07:49:50 am »

What Chinese money? The only money to come from China was to purchase shares, it was not money meant to be going to the club it was money for the selling share holders. Something happened with 5U Sports and they obviously could not meet the terms of the takeover and the shares were then sold back to the original shareholders. So you need to understand THERE NEVER WAS ANY CHINESE MONEY
😂😂😂😂 I THINK THERE WAS AND THE TRUST HAVE EVIDENCE.
maybe you should take a breath and read what the trust have written, money was transferred to BDJ and over a million was transferred to KT and DB according to the Trust, totalling £6.7m again according to the trust’s statement. Now if that wasn’t true I think legal process would have started don’t you?
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« Reply #112 on: July 05, 2021, 08:01:48 am »

You seem to know fûcking everything in hindsight yet do fûck all about it !
I like you Tel but I really do but I don’t understand your bile for the Trust?
If they pîssed you off, god knows how many years ago just come out with it instead of pûssyfooting around on a message board trying to bad mouth them?


It is a convenience to assume that the Trust pissed me off. As it is for people to resort to childish remarks about me being on NTFC's payroll. It is an attempt to distract from the fact that the Trust has got it wrong. And as much as some of the clubs practices need to be questioned, so does the behaviour of the Trust.

I enjoyed my time on the Trust board. I never ever pushed for any status on it. And I left it on very good terms. So, like most things, you’ll find nothing there to fit yours and their agenda, to personal attacks on those who merely disagree with you.

I can only say what I have said all along. And please feel free to look back. The Trust in my opinion, went in totally the wrong direction. They should have postal canvassed their membership about their mandate. They should have minuted and made all meetings with the club and council clear to their membership. They should have taken the council to task about current lease expectations. They should have been instrumental in forming and open, but representative forum to meet with the council and outline the supports expectations regarding any future development. Including local residents and all stake holders.

None of the above has changed with me. Had they followed that simple democratic process, they would not be in the mess they are now. None that is hindsight. I have been saying it all for  years.

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« Reply #113 on: July 05, 2021, 08:32:59 am »

It’s all very well arguing the toss but the point remains that KT knows what actually occurred and could enlighten the supporters if he wished to.
Now the fan base has no board representation there is no way anything will be put out there unless Kelvin wants to.

This leads to the question
‘Do fans who pay money to support the club have a right to know what is going on’

That’s what it all boils down to for me.
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« Reply #114 on: July 05, 2021, 09:01:07 am »

Think about what you could do though Steven if the club were to have a stake in the development of the area. Hotel/casino, purpose built training and rehabilitation facilities for all 3 Northampton professional sports clubs who all work together. Why is it football, Rugby or Cricket when you can go to all 3? What about a season ticket offering for that with all 3 pushing to raise profiles, something to get business and sponsors excited. Specialist retail, restaurants owned by the club with match day functions. Quality food delivered direct to the back of stand collection points during the game all ordered via smart phone app, instead of gulping down boiled burgers and bovril that you have had to queue 20 minutes for at half time. The stage at the back of the North, the possibilities and options are endless. Make the land money work for the club and recruit some people to develop the alternative commercial opportunities. But no, it’s corporate boxes destined to be half used and plastic seats that won’t see an arse more than twice in 3 months. Fcuk me and people wonder why we’re going backwards, where’s the imagination and drive? The Club, Council, Trust, Saints and even the CCC could all work together along with the Council to regenerate the whole area. Given the proximity of the Saints to Sixfields and the land in question/money involved what a golden opportunity to kill about 8 birds with one stone. Do up the East Stand with a car park my ar5e, it will be a new bus stop next just to be really progressive. What a fcuking waste, and people wonder why we’re in debt. FFS do something different that will get people excited and get the Council up off their backsides to work positively and finally promote and progress the town. I’m going for a lie down.

That is spot on.
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« Reply #115 on: July 05, 2021, 09:21:36 am »

Think about what you could do though Steven if the club were to have a stake in the development of the area. Hotel/casino, purpose built training and rehabilitation facilities for all 3 Northampton professional sports clubs who all work together. Why is it football, Rugby or Cricket when you can go to all 3? What about a season ticket offering for that with all 3 pushing to raise profiles, something to get business and sponsors excited. Specialist retail, restaurants owned by the club with match day functions. Quality food delivered direct to the back of stand collection points during the game all ordered via smart phone app, instead of gulping down boiled burgers and bovril that you have had to queue 20 minutes for at half time. The stage at the back of the North, the possibilities and options are endless. Make the land money work for the club and recruit some people to develop the alternative commercial opportunities. But no, it’s corporate boxes destined to be half used and plastic seats that won’t see an arse more than twice in 3 months. Fcuk me and people wonder why we’re going backwards, where’s the imagination and drive? The Club, Council, Trust, Saints and even the CCC could all work together along with the Council to regenerate the whole area. Given the proximity of the Saints to Sixfields and the land in question/money involved what a golden opportunity to kill about 8 birds with one stone. Do up the East Stand with a car park my ar5e, it will be a new bus stop next just to be really progressive. What a fcuking waste, and people wonder why we’re in debt. FFS do something different that will get people excited and get the Council up off their backsides to work positively and finally promote and progress the town. I’m going for a lie down.


This hits the nail on the head.

Is there actually one cobblers fan that doesn’t agree with this whichever camp/viewpoint you’re in?

If the current owners and council can’t grasp this then may I humbly suggest that they both need to make way for others with the vision to progress things.

This imo is what the town need to come together on in order to bring change.

An 8,000 seater stadium is utterly pointless imo

Amended to sort the quote thingy out
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« Reply #116 on: July 05, 2021, 09:22:09 am »

It’s all very well arguing the toss but the point remains that KT knows what actually occurred and could enlighten the supporters if he wished to.
Now the fan base has no board representation there is no way anything will be put out there unless Kelvin wants to.

This leads to the question
‘Do fans who pay money to support the club have a right to know what is going on’

That’s what it all boils down to for me.

No.. They don’t have any rights to know the intricacies off the finances, unless they believe something untoward has occurred.  And as I said in my recent post. If you or anybody else has anything that suggests impropriety, report it to the relevant authorities.  

The money you pay, or in your case don’t, only offers you the opportunity to view what’s on the pitch. There is no universe in which buying a season ticket gives you access to the running of the club. If you think otherwise, you need to examine the level of entitlement you afford yourself.
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Terryfenwickatemyhamster
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« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2021, 09:27:07 am »

As usual Melbourne hits the nail on the head.

If you do nothing else, try to bypass the comedy that is playing in the background, and just bloody realise who the puppet master is here. The council own the b@stard ground. They own the lease. They will determine the development of the area. Why on the earth are they getting off Scott free?

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« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2021, 09:59:19 am »

😂😂😂😂 I THINK THERE WAS AND THE TRUST HAVE EVIDENCE.
maybe you should take a breath and read what the trust have written, money was transferred to BDJ and over a million was transferred to KT and DB according to the Trust, totalling £6.7m again according to the trust’s statement. Now if that wasn’t true I think legal process would have started don’t you?

Ok, let's flip this one on its head?

If what you are saying is indeed true, and the Trust have proof of this, have they presented this to the relevant authorities?

If not,  why not?
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« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2021, 10:06:11 am »

Ok, let's flip this one on its head?

If what you are saying is indeed true, and the Trust have proof of this, have they presented this to the relevant authorities?

If not,  why not?
+1

If there is any evidence of wrongdoing that the trust is holding then they surely have an obligation to fans to report it.

It’s time to s*** or get off the pot.
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