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New Trust statement on club finances

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« Reply #180 on: July 05, 2021, 17:04:49 pm »

If they were to disappear debt free (and a few quid) with their declared completion we’d be in much better shape than when they arrived.
Are you sure this is correct?
They inherited a debt free club only having to settle a smallish tax bill I thought.
Does the adddiron of 200 extra seats, some facilities (bogs?) and a few posh boxes constitute as much better shape?
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« Reply #181 on: July 05, 2021, 17:06:22 pm »

In the grander scheme of things they are bit players in an international theatrical production with the stars being the likes of Starbucks, Google, Lewis Hamilton etc.
I'm not saying that it makes what they have done OK, just that it is legal and exploited by thousands of people.
I read somewhere a few years ago that if all of the top earners in the US paid what they should do in taxes the national debt of the country could be wiped out overnight.
It is said that John Paul Getty never paid any tax and on paper he owned nothing despite being at the time one of the if not the richest man in The World. Which brings the old addage you have to have money to make money.
Didn't do him any good though. Became a worthless recluse.
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« Reply #182 on: July 05, 2021, 17:19:58 pm »

Are you sure this is correct?
They inherited a debt free club only having to settle a smallish tax bill I thought.
Does the adddiron of 200 extra seats, some facilities (bogs?) and a few posh boxes constitute as much better shape?

Debt free? I’m pretty certain the 10/£13,000,000 loaned by NBC got recalled, therefore it was our debt. Thirteen million quid is hardly debt free?
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« Reply #183 on: July 05, 2021, 17:22:09 pm »

Debt free? I’m pretty certain the 10/£13,000,000 loaned by NBC got recalled, therefore it was our debt. Thirteen million quid is hardly debt free?

Although, I’m finding I’m commenting on my own quote here, that KT and co were obviously nothing to do with the financial mess, so actually, the original comment of debt free, it’s probably accurate 😅 please don’t hate
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« Reply #184 on: July 05, 2021, 17:25:29 pm »

Didn't do him any good though. Became a worthless recluse.

Apparently such a tight wad he even had payphones installed in his house. When you read about him he appears to have been a bit of a sad old git, even balking at raising the money to free his kidnapped grandson.
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« Reply #185 on: July 05, 2021, 17:36:42 pm »

In the grander scheme of things they are bit players in an international theatrical production with the stars being the likes of Starbucks, Google, Lewis Hamilton etc.
I'm not saying that it makes what they have done OK, just that it is legal and exploited by thousands of people.
I read somewhere a few years ago that if all of the top earners in the US paid what they should do in taxes the national debt of the country could be wiped out overnight.
It is said that John Paul Getty never paid any tax and on paper he owned nothing despite being at the time one of the if not the richest man in The World. Which brings the old addage you have to have money to make money.

Fair point…..I wonder who decides when tax avoidance becomes tax evasion….and therefore it is illegal. What is that line you shouldn’t cross?

For example I pay into a smart pension scheme which reduces my overall tax burden…..or I put money into an ISA to reduce my tax outgoings…..both tax avoidance I guess and as you say perfectly legal.
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« Reply #186 on: July 05, 2021, 17:38:19 pm »

Although, I’m finding I’m commenting on my own quote here, that KT and co were obviously nothing to do with the financial mess, so actually, the original comment of debt free, it’s probably accurate 😅 please don’t hate

As you say that money was nothing to do with the new owners and not part of any deal made going forward. The council took legal action to recover what they could, nothing to do with KT and DB.

To all intents and purposes the money was written off.
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« Reply #187 on: July 05, 2021, 18:04:32 pm »

Apparently such a tight wad he even had payphones installed in his house. When you read about him he appears to have been a bit of a sad old git, even balking at raising the money to free his kidnapped grandson.

I once went to JPG's house in Surrey and I can assure you money really was no object. He had his own state of the art library built into the mansion on several floors and he had staff to maintain it. It was a sight to behold as well as a site to behold!
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« Reply #188 on: July 05, 2021, 18:15:21 pm »

I once went to JPG's house in Surrey and I can assure you money really was no object. He had his own state of the art library built into the mansion on several floors and he had staff to maintain it. It was a sight to behold as well as a site to behold!

But it was all owned by a trust fund, alledgedly when he died he had just over 17 dollars to his name.
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« Reply #189 on: July 05, 2021, 18:15:37 pm »

Is this you making a decision on behalf of the whole of the fanbase?
How many of the many thousand fans did go to the open day?
Yes, the CGI looks alright, thats usually what CGI's do.

The Trust board feel that the overall plan is not acceptable.

You missed the last part of the mission statement..... "We commit to supporting the aims and objectives of NTFC where, in the opinion of the board, these are not in direct conflict with the needs and best interests of supporters."

The Board don't believe that what is being proposed meets that final criteria. It really is that simple.

How can saddling the club with another £3m of debt on top of the 6-7m already accrued and the football club taking on all the development risk be in the best interests of supporters?

Open invite to you Deepcut, join in the next board meeting, better still put yourself forward to be a board member...... then maybe you can effect the change that you so obviously want to see.

I'm commenting on behalf of me, no one else.

I asked the question "Why isn't the CGI acceptable?" I wasn't at the Open Day, can The Trust Board explain/reveal why, in their opinion, it wasn't acceptable?
The Trust Mission Statement also headlines:
     To be open, democratic and inclusive in considering the needs and ideas of supporters
     To promote and strengthen the bonds between NTFC, its supporters and the wider community
     To safeguard a professional Football League club in Northampton
At what level does the Board take over the decision making on behalf of the members when deciding "in the opinion of the Board"?  
The statement released appears to be quite a significant 'decision', to withdraw their support, that I would assume/hope exceeds that threshold?
Regarding the additional £3m of debt.  How else would the East Stand be funded if not initially from the owners pockets, which will subsequently be recoverable from the land development?

Before considering your invitation to attend the next meeting, I also asked a question earlier:
"Unfortunately, The Trust Board lose even more credibility every time they open their collective mouth(s).
Someone on the Board must realise this, or is this why certain individuals have left?"

I'm not just asking about the recent departures.  
Is it because they realised that they cannot change the agenda of a board that negatively criticises the current owners at every opportunity with naive, destabilising statements that look as though they have been composed by a student on work experience?
Which therefore alienates a significant/large amount of the membership/fans who haven't been privy to the 'knowledge' in order to form their own opinion?
I refer you to the first bullet point of the Mission Statement.

I also posted earlier the following:
Agreement deal on the land development is achieved between the club and the council.
East Stand is completed.
Land is redeveloped.
KT and DB are repaid their £10m+ 'investor' loan, from the club share of the land deal, when completed.
Club has nil debt.
Club receive increased income from the East Stand facilities, the increased seating and the ongoing club share of the land deal subsequent income.

It's not a quick fix, how long will it take to achieve that following the initial Land development agreement? (the start line)
I would guess that we are looking at anything up to 5 years? Or am I being optimistic?


Is that not a satisfactory solution?
Am I being optimistic or pessimistic, in the opinion of The Trust Board?

GPC. I know that you have only recently taken up a position on the board and intended to keep your personal opinion separate from The Trust perspective but it appears that you have been corralled into being The Trust Board representative spokesperson where borders have merged and become cloudy.
I apologise for that but at the same time thank you.  Hopefully you do realise that it is not personal to either yourself or the individual members of The Trust Board, but as a collective The Trust is losing credibility almost daily with an apparent mismanagement of the Boards raison d'etre.
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« Reply #190 on: July 05, 2021, 18:15:49 pm »

I once went to JPG's house in Surrey and I can assure you money really was no object. He had his own state of the art library built into the mansion on several floors and he had staff to maintain it. It was a sight to behold as well as a site to behold!
Did the egg and cress stand up when you had him back at yours?
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« Reply #191 on: July 05, 2021, 18:18:25 pm »

As you say that money was nothing to do with the new owners and not part of any deal made going forward. The council took legal action to recover what they could, nothing to do with KT and DB.

To all intents and purposes the money was written off.
Six years later and we are 6 million down again. Anyone reckon Dopey did a better job before he got light fingered?
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« Reply #192 on: July 05, 2021, 18:21:53 pm »

Fair point…..I wonder who decides when tax avoidance becomes tax evasion….and therefore it is illegal. What is that line you shouldn’t cross?

For example I pay into a smart pension scheme which reduces my overall tax burden…..or I put money into an ISA to reduce my tax outgoings…..both tax avoidance I guess and as you say perfectly legal.


Tax avoidance becomes tax evasion when you lie about you taxable income to reduce you tax liabilities. A simple example is a plumber who does a certain amount of work over a year for cash, but does not declare this cash as income in his books and just pockets it. Years ago when I was self employed my accountant told me to put half of the cash I got paid through the books and that would keep the taxman happy. I do know of one builder who went to do a quote for a job and told the guy he'd get a reduction for cash. Problem was the customer worked at the tax office and the builder got audited and was lucky not to go to jail.
Your ISAs are a great idea and bascially government sanctioned tax avoidance.
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« Reply #193 on: July 05, 2021, 18:41:29 pm »

Fair point…..I wonder who decides when tax avoidance becomes tax evasion….and therefore it is illegal. What is that line you shouldn’t cross?

For example I pay into a smart pension scheme which reduces my overall tax burden…..or I put money into an ISA to reduce my tax outgoings…..both tax avoidance I guess and as you say perfectly legal.


There aren’t many ways for anyone on PAYE tax to avoid paying it. You highlighted one way to reduce the burden via your pension, which I wouldn’t class as avoidance really (in the spirit of the term and they tax your pension anyway), charitable donations another. I don’t think my employer would pay my wages into an off shore account.
I doubt that there are too many people who wouldn’t avoid paying tax if they could. Ask most self employed people.  Tongue
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« Reply #194 on: July 05, 2021, 18:51:07 pm »

The government provides a tax avoidance key for everyone that wants one. Tax evasion keys have to be sourced independently.
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« Reply #195 on: July 05, 2021, 19:01:47 pm »

Fair point…..I wonder who decides when tax avoidance becomes tax evasion….and therefore it is illegal. What is that line you shouldn’t cross?

For example I pay into a smart pension sch weeme which reduces my overall tax burden…..or I put money into an ISA to reduce my tax outgoings…..both tax avoidance I guess and as you say perfectly legal.


Pensions and ISAs are vehicles encouraging you to save. With a pension you are deferring the tax liability to a later date, with an ISA you have most likely already paid tax and NIC on when you received the income you have subsequently put into the ISA
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« Reply #196 on: July 05, 2021, 19:08:29 pm »

Tax avoidance becomes tax evasion when you lie about you taxable income to reduce you tax liabilities. A simple example is a plumber who does a certain amount of work over a year for cash, but does not declare this cash as income in his books and just pockets it. Years ago when I was self employed my accountant told me to put half of the cash I got paid through the books and that would keep the taxman happy. I do know of one builder who went to do a quote for a job and told the guy he'd get a reduction for cash. Problem was the customer worked at the tax office and the builder got audited and was lucky not to go to jail.
Your ISAs are a great idea and bascially government sanctioned tax avoidance.
Your accountant told you to do 50% of work for cash? Kin ell.
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« Reply #197 on: July 05, 2021, 19:26:35 pm »

Your accountant told you to do 50% of work for cash? Kin ell.

No he told me to put 50% of the cash work I did through the books, I wasn't doing only cash work.
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« Reply #198 on: July 05, 2021, 19:51:43 pm »

So in a little over 2 days this thread is already into its 11th page and I am not about to join the debate.
Obviously I have my own views regarding the trust and the ownership of our club but they will not be aired on here despite me being as passionate about the club as anyone.
A brief scan of postings shows we have some schoolboys who purport to know something "but I'm not telling you" and frankly I find it rather odd, despite the threads topic, that so many people take hours out of their lives posting, arguing and debating something they such a miniscule chance of affecting the eventual outcome.
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« Reply #199 on: July 05, 2021, 20:01:59 pm »

So in a little over 2 days this thread is already into its 11th page and I am not about to join the debate.
Obviously I have my own views regarding the trust and the ownership of our club but they will not be aired on here despite me being as passionate about the club as anyone.
A brief scan of postings shows we have some schoolboys who purport to know something "but I'm not telling you" and frankly I find it rather odd, despite the threads topic, that so many people take hours out of their lives posting, arguing and debating something they such a miniscule chance of affecting the eventual outcome.
Save yourself for the opening game of the season thread WSO, if you think you can affect that.
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