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New Trust statement on club finances

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BackOfTheNet
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« Reply #460 on: July 22, 2021, 15:12:15 pm »

Thanks MC, you tell more yours and i'll tell you mine

and remember I asked first  Grin

Once again those who hold the Trust to a high level of scrutiny never give any reason or evidence of how or why KT has been good for NTFC

On a side note, if we had done an Exeter and kept with the same manager and support staff, ie: Rob Page, where do you think we would be today?

How much money would we have saved? and even better if that money had gone into infrastructure projects what would we have?  obviously not expecting an answer from MC, Tcobb, BOTN, SingCobb, Hammy and others but thought I would ask again

Well let's see....

What has KT/DB done that's been good?

  • Paid the inland revenue bill
  • Established the education programme
  • Made the club run in a much more professional manner
  • Stuck some seats in the East Stand so at least we are making some money from it in the interim
  • Been happy to engage with fans when approached directly (apparently, never bothered trying it myself beyond a cordial "hello" when passing him on the concourse.)
  • Overseen a big increase in the community work done
  • Subsidised the club with director loans to keep us going
  • Continued to slog through the red tape with the council for the redevelopment work

If by "done an Exeter" you mean gone into fan ownership, we probably wouldn't have been able to afford/attract Rob Page in the first place and if we had, with the side he assembled we'd have been as screwed as we were but unable to even attempt to buy our way out of the mess he'd created during the January transfer window (which we did try to do, another good thing KT did, even if it didn't work out)

If that money had gone into infrastructure projects? You have noticed we're losing money, right? If we hadn't spent the money on paying people off and trying to bail our way out of trouble, it still wouldn't have been available to invest in infrastructure projects because, in all likelihood, it would be needed to prop the club up (in the absence of director loans coming in).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 15:13:54 pm by BackOfTheNet » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #461 on: July 22, 2021, 15:31:47 pm »

NTFC CAN be run at a break even basis, it was under DC for a few years. Other clubs of our size are run at break even / small profit so who's fault is it that we are, allegedly, losing £1M a year ? I doubt that our playing budget is £1M a year more than the likes of Accrington & Exeter and both of those clubs get smaller gates than us so something's wrong somewhere.
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« Reply #462 on: July 22, 2021, 16:22:34 pm »

Quite a bit of interesting information in this document for any interested in rising above the standard fare and the usual agenda laced rhetoric. https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/uk/Documents/sports-business-group/deloitte-uk-annual-review-of-football-finance-2020.pdf
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« Reply #463 on: July 22, 2021, 16:34:24 pm »

Well let's see....

What has KT/DB done that's been good?

  • Paid the inland revenue bill
.     £166k out - £6.8m in   Others were also lined up to pay that relatively small bill.
  • Established the education programme
. Sorry what? do you mean the community programmes funded by around £1m grants each year?
  • Made the club run in a much more professional manner
Sorry you really are going to give more detail than that. How exactly?
  • Stuck some seats in the East Stand so at least we are making some money from it in the interim
. oh yeah stroke of genius and imagination, installing seats we already owned, at a time we were selling out most games
  • Been happy to engage with fans when approached directly (apparently, never bothered trying it myself beyond a cordial "hello" when passing him on the concourse.)
Happy to engage in fans he can wrap round his little finger. The Trust were cast aside from day one
  • Overseen a big increase in the community work done
funded by that £1m grant(s)
  • Subsidised the club with director loans to keep us going
sorry this shows the opposite of well run, we have lost an average of £1m per year, with NOTHING to show for it whatsoever
  • Continued to slog through the red tape with the council for the redevelopment work
NBC have said nothing stopping him developing. he has constantly  moved the goal posts and kicked it down the road. He stabbed them in the back twice and then expects them to bend over and take a
[/list]

If by "done an Exeter" you mean gone into fan ownership, we probably wouldn't have been able to afford/attract Rob Page in the first place and if we had, with the side he assembled we'd have been as screwed as we were but unable to even attempt to buy our way out of the mess he'd created during the January transfer window (which we did try to do, another good thing KT did, even if it didn't work out). No I was actually just thinking about the about of money and upheaval we have suffered by keep changing managers and just financially where would we be, let alone league position, especially if that was coupled with a plan to develop our own players in that time

If that money had gone into infrastructure projects? You have noticed we're losing money, right? If we hadn't spent the money on paying people off and trying to bail our way out of trouble, it still wouldn't have been available to invest in infrastructure projects because, in all likelihood, it would be needed to prop the club up (in the absence of director loans coming in). Think you have this backwards, I am talking of having a longer term plan, we keep trying a very very short term plan of scrapping together a team, that arguable gets worse every season, in fact thinking about it, not sure many would argue that our team has got worse each season. Large sums of money is spent on paying off contracts of managers, staff and players then employing new managers, staff and players and then rinse and repeat. If we cut our playing budget by £100k each year (2 so reserve players salaries), We could have had better catering or big screen or club shop or gym equipment or spas / recovery. Most of that we would have for the next season and the next etc.

Thanks BOTN, you are the first one to ever reply and actually try to explain what KT has done for my football club. My replies, which I don't expect you will like are above.
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« Reply #464 on: July 22, 2021, 16:37:19 pm »

Exeter appointed Tisdale in 2006. Not including that seasons they spent 2 seasons in the conference, 3 of them in League 1 and 7 in League 2.
In the same time we've spent 5 years in League 1 and 7 in League 2

Not sure infrastructure wise or playing level its made any difference sticking with him.
Also not sure if Page was just an example but I suggest watching the highlights back from P*sh away!


Yes and we have accrued debts in excess of £25m in that time for 2 extra years of struggle in League 1, whilst Exeter have zero debt and built 2 new stands.
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« Reply #465 on: July 22, 2021, 16:43:48 pm »

Yes and we have accrued debts in excess of £25m in that time for 2 extra years of struggle in League 1, whilst Exeter have zero debt and built 2 new stands.
https://www.devonlive.com/sport/football/football-news/exeter-city-post-700000-loss-3982276
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« Reply #466 on: July 22, 2021, 17:07:07 pm »


also from that report....

"But while for the year ending June 30, 2019, the club posted an operating loss of £702,000, this compares favourably to the £1.33m budgeted loss that the club had anticipated."

"The balance sheet shows that the club maintains its planned positive cash position with current retained earnings almost £2m, with the club’s budgeting approach to release a proportion of previously earned transfer income over successive seasons after that income is received."

A look at the accounts filed at Companies house shows the following also....

Cash at bank and in hand: ECFC = £1.27m, NTFC £513k
Creditors falling due within one year: ECFC = £2.202m, NTFC £7.596m
Net Assets = ECFC £1.652m as opposed to net Liabilities for NTFC of £4.66m
Trade Creditors: ECFC £123k, NTFC £345k
Amount of tax and Social security owed: ECFC £344k, NTFC £562k
Number of employees: ECFC 214, NTFC 287

One club's accounts has the following statement "The financial statements indicate that the company has insufficient cash reserves to continue trading without securing additional funding" and one clubs accounts show nothing of the sort.

Bigger picture.......!!
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« Reply #467 on: July 22, 2021, 17:14:56 pm »

also from that report....

"But while for the year ending June 30, 2019, the club posted an operating loss of £702,000, this compares favourably to the £1.33m budgeted loss that the club had anticipated."

"The balance sheet shows that the club maintains its planned positive cash position with current retained earnings almost £2m, with the club’s budgeting approach to release a proportion of previously earned transfer income over successive seasons after that income is received."

A look at the accounts filed at Companies house shows the following also....

Cash at bank and in hand: ECFC = £1.27m, NTFC £513k
Creditors falling due within one year: ECFC = £2.202m, NTFC £7.596m
Net Assets = ECFC £1.652m as opposed to net Liabilities for NTFC of £4.66m
Trade Creditors: ECFC £123k, NTFC £345k
Amount of tax and Social security owed: ECFC £344k, NTFC £562k
Number of employees: ECFC 214, NTFC 287

One club's accounts has the following statement "The financial statements indicate that the company has insufficient cash reserves to continue trading without securing additional funding" and one clubs accounts show nothing of the sort.

Bigger picture.......!!

Also from the report.
The overall improved performance against budget was driven by the sale of striker Jayden Stockley to Preston North End in January 2019 for a fee believed to be in the region of £750,000, with a small proportion of the funds received being reinvested within the playing costs.
In a joint statement Julian Tagg, chairman and director of football at Exeter City FC, and Nick Hawker, chair of the Supporters’ Trust said: "Both financial years were affected dramatically by transfer activity. Income from transfers allows us to continue investment in our playing squad, however, the board is very much aware that this level of investment may not always be possible and longer-term financial planning is in place for a number of scenarios.
Even bigger picture. 😉
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« Reply #468 on: July 22, 2021, 17:28:39 pm »

Also from the report.
The overall improved performance against budget was driven by the sale of striker Jayden Stockley to Preston North End in January 2019 for a fee believed to be in the region of £750,000, with a small proportion of the funds received being reinvested within the playing costs.
In a joint statement Julian Tagg, chairman and director of football at Exeter City FC, and Nick Hawker, chair of the Supporters’ Trust said: "Both financial years were affected dramatically by transfer activity. Income from transfers allows us to continue investment in our playing squad, however, the board is very much aware that this level of investment may not always be possible and longer-term financial planning is in place for a number of scenarios.
Even bigger picture. 😉
whilst this is a bit tongue in cheek GPC and trying to prove the point on why selective commentary was avoided from the Devon Live report in the first instance, what is the comparative book value between the clubs as another basis for evaluation?
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« Reply #469 on: July 22, 2021, 17:36:50 pm »

whilst this is a bit tongue in cheek GPC and trying to prove the point on why selective commentary was avoided from the Devon Live report in the first instance, what is the comparative book value between the clubs as another basis for evaluation?

What was the basis for you posting the £700k loss article in the first place?

On the face of it, Exeter seem to be in less debt and overall in a healthier position than we are. They also own their ground and other pitches, whereas we list the East Stand on OUR books as an asset under construction valued at £2.5m!! One in the eye for those who say by building the East Stand we are enhancing the Councils asset if the Club is actually listing the East Stand as IT's asset.
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« Reply #470 on: July 22, 2021, 17:47:51 pm »

What was the basis for you posting the £700k loss article in the first place?

On the face of it, Exeter seem to be in less debt and overall in a healthier position than we are. They also own their ground and other pitches, whereas we list the East Stand on OUR books as an asset under construction valued at £2.5m!! One in the eye for those who say by building the East Stand we are enhancing the Councils asset if the Club is actually listing the East Stand as IT's asset.
The basis was that Exeter were held up as an example of success when they posted a 700k loss even after selling a player for 750k all pre Covid. The point I am trying to make is that other examples are held up as comparatives to berate our owners when they are not quite the shining examples they are made out to be. However, when a figure that may be seen as a positive such as the book value is mentioned, it is immediately slammed with negative caveats. The problem with this approach is that people may start to feel they are being manipulated and any initiative stalls as a result. My view is that balanced impartial judgment rather than hysterical outbursts tends to have more of an impact, not that I am accusing you of that. I agree that not too much should be read into the book value comparison by the way. However, I would also say the same about many of the accusations that are levelled at the club too.
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« Reply #471 on: July 22, 2021, 18:04:08 pm »

Again playing devils advocate, can anyone explain to me why KT & DB would take the payment from 5U Sport and incur a 50% personal tax liability when they could have paid it off against the loans and incurred no tax liability at all? Forget the offshore thing, they are taxed on global income in their country of residence so unless they are committing tax fraud (good luck with that in the UAE) then they have just chucked 3 million down the toilet. Come up with a logical explanation for that and the argument might get a bit more convincing.
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« Reply #472 on: July 22, 2021, 18:07:59 pm »

We got £1m+ for Goode. We need the structure to do more of that business and we’d have more chance of breaking even/into profit.
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« Reply #473 on: July 22, 2021, 18:52:59 pm »

Again playing devils advocate, can anyone explain to me why KT & DB would take the payment from 5U Sport and incur a 50% personal tax liability when they could have paid it off against the loans and incurred no tax liability at all? Forget the offshore thing, they are taxed on global income in their country of residence so unless they are committing tax fraud (good luck with that in the UAE) then they have just chucked 3 million down the toilet. Come up with a logical explanation for that and the argument might get a bit more convincing.

Belle-de-Jour took the bulk of the payment from 5USports, a sum of £4.342m. Belle-De-Jour, being a British Virgin Islands registered company would pay no tax on this money.
KT and DB each received personally £1.189m for their share of NT Ventures

DB is an expat based in Dubai and as such pays no personal tax income as he meets the criteria to be classed as a tax resident. If he earned money in Dubai but was tax resident in the UK he would have a liability but not the other way round.

KT....well i'm not aware of which country he classes as his residence for tax purposes.

Bottom line is that the bulk of the money went offshore....theres no getting away from that Melly, and as a result it is not liable to taxation. Besides that.....B-D-J has now loaned NTFC the sum of £4.84m (according to the latest filed accounts)...... I wonder where they got that from!

2017 accounts showed no money loaned by BDJ to NTFC  (£0)
2018 accounts showed £2.563m loaned by BDJ to NTFC (£2.563m)
2019 accounts showed £1.745m loaned by BDJ to NTFC (cumulative £4.308m)
2020 accounts showed £532k loaned by BDJ to NTFC (cumulative £4.84m)
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« Reply #474 on: July 22, 2021, 19:17:15 pm »

GPC, So what are you saying they have done wrong ?
If you have proof of wrong doing please report it to correct authorities.
If there is no irregularities at all, or no wrong doings that can be reported, please stop.

Just put up or shut up.

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« Reply #475 on: July 22, 2021, 19:27:37 pm »

GPC, So what are you saying they have done wrong ?
If you have proof of wrong doing please report it to correct authorities.
If there is no irregularities at all, or no wrong doings that can be reported, please stop.

Just put up or shut up.



You’re right….when another poster puts a post up asking for a logical explanation I just won’t answer next time.

That’s me told!
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« Reply #476 on: July 22, 2021, 19:43:53 pm »

GPC, So what are you saying they have done wrong ?
If you have proof of wrong doing please report it to correct authorities.
If there is no irregularities at all, or no wrong doings that can be reported, please stop.

Just put up or shut up.



so as long as the owners don't do anything illegal they are free to do whatever they want Tcobb?  So I will copy and paste your above post and then reply back to every post of yours against the Trust, as I know they haven't done anything illegal or even immoral
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« Reply #477 on: July 22, 2021, 19:44:12 pm »

GPC, So what are you saying they have done wrong ?
If you have proof of wrong doing please report it to correct authorities.
If there is no irregularities at all, or no wrong doings that can be reported, please stop.

Just put up or shut up.


A reply like yours seems to have become the standard for those antagonistic towards the Trust.
Why do you think there is any message beyond the information provided?
I for one am glad of this kind of post from any poster. They help me form an opinion I otherwise couldn't reach.
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« Reply #478 on: July 22, 2021, 19:52:07 pm »

one key factor re Exeter is that they achieved that with a local population HALF of ours

perhaps their fans are more loyal, generous, hardworking and ambitious than ours !!!!!!

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« Reply #479 on: July 22, 2021, 19:53:26 pm »

I suppose really the Cardozas did nothing illegal either.....they and the council drew up a loan agreement and they kept going to the Council when they wanted to draw down some money....and then the Council gave it to them.

Nothing illegal there!
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