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New Trust statement on club finances

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« Reply #520 on: July 23, 2021, 09:37:14 am »

Hi Woody & Parrot,

No they said it was a partnership and they sold some shares (60%) in one of the controlling companies of NTFC. They actually then sold / transferred the other 40%, meaning the Chinese owned and controlled our football club. No announcement was made, I don't know why, I expect there was some crossover of contracts and the Chinese government stopping overseas investment. As there was another £1.2m payment to go to the football from the Chinese as part of the deal, the oblingations were not met. DB was a very clever lawyer so I expect that the contracts read that if the money was not paid they would be in breach of contract and DB could re-acquire the shares. I know it sounds incredible that they would have returned the money but thats not how business contracts work, especially bearing in mind, in one corner a experienced, shrewd lawyer, one corner a very small business (and people) with a tiny business having accesses to £6.8m to throw around and then in the other corner - off shore accounts and businesses and finally in the other corner, possible money laundering and illegal activities.

We have total evidence of the £6.8m payments and the re-acquirement of the shares, we dont know how a small company would be willing and able to pay £6.8m for a club that the owners brought for £1 2 years earlier, we don't know why KT / DB have spoke about all the details of the transactions etc, we don't know why the Chinese hasn't broken KT legs  Grin (they did make a challenge, so would suggest they not happy)  Again it is the whole point, after DC, fans still seem to not worry about iffy dealing by our owners, why the football rots arounds them as the owners work on asset striping the football, all in the name of development
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« Reply #521 on: July 23, 2021, 09:40:09 am »

sorry woody, got on my soapbox in the last post and didn't address your post

I agree that normally the debts loaded to the club are not a big issue as most of the time the owners write them off when they walk away

However this is not the case here as they want to use the profit from the sale of the 22 acres of land to pay off this debt. So no it's not good deal or value for NTFC.

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« Reply #522 on: July 23, 2021, 09:46:00 am »



so how often do you post on the Sainsbury's / Next / B&M / McDonalds etc fans forum?

Do you get into debate with other customers about the actions of their board members and owners?
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« Reply #523 on: July 23, 2021, 09:46:44 am »

sorry woody, got on my soapbox in the last post and didn't address your post

I agree that normally the debts loaded to the club are not a big issue as most of the time the owners write them off when they walk away

However this is not the case here as they want to use the profit from the sale of the 22 acres of land to pay off this debt. So no it's not good deal or value for NTFC.



Random - is your background, Legal, HMRC or Financial expertise?
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« Reply #524 on: July 23, 2021, 09:55:44 am »

Hi Woody & Parrot,

No they said it was a partnership and they sold some shares (60%) in one of the controlling companies of NTFC. They actually then sold / transferred the other 40%, meaning the Chinese owned and controlled our football club. No announcement was made, I don't know why, I expect there was some crossover of contracts and the Chinese government stopping overseas investment. As there was another £1.2m payment to go to the football from the Chinese as part of the deal, the oblingations were not met. DB was a very clever lawyer so I expect that the contracts read that if the money was not paid they would be in breach of contract and DB could re-acquire the shares. I know it sounds incredible that they would have returned the money but thats not how business contracts work, especially bearing in mind, in one corner a experienced, shrewd lawyer, one corner a very small business (and people) with a tiny business having accesses to £6.8m to throw around and then in the other corner - off shore accounts and businesses and finally in the other corner, possible money laundering and illegal activities.

We have total evidence of the £6.8m payments and the re-acquirement of the shares, we dont know how a small company would be willing and able to pay £6.8m for a club that the owners brought for £1 2 years earlier, we don't know why KT / DB have spoke about all the details of the transactions etc, we don't know why the Chinese hasn't broken KT legs  Grin (they did make a challenge, so would suggest they not happy)  Again it is the whole point, after DC, fans still seem to not worry about iffy dealing by our owners, why the football rots arounds them as the owners work on asset striping the football, all in the name of development
Random, appreciating your replies, I understand your perspective on the finances, I just happen to disagree, but no issues with that.

It is strange that they sold the other 40% or were in the process of without notification. My optimistic side would hope they planned to announce when it was all finalised and then didn't when it fell through. We will never know.

However, I was always under the impression that although KT would stay on as chairman it would have been 5U who had control over the club. My assumption was then that overtime he would leave and they would appoint someone themselves who would be based in the UK to oversee things.

This is from a report on Reuteurs.... “They do have the majority share. You could call it investment or you can call it a takeover. I wouldn’t necessarily understand the difference,” Thomas told BBC
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« Reply #525 on: July 23, 2021, 09:58:46 am »

Hi Woody & Parrot,

No they said it was a partnership and they sold some shares (60%) in one of the controlling companies of NTFC. They actually then sold / transferred the other 40%, meaning the Chinese owned and controlled our football club. No announcement was made, I don't know why, I expect there was some crossover of contracts and the Chinese government stopping overseas investment. As there was another £1.2m payment to go to the football from the Chinese as part of the deal, the oblingations were not met. DB was a very clever lawyer so I expect that the contracts read that if the money was not paid they would be in breach of contract and DB could re-acquire the shares. I know it sounds incredible that they would have returned the money but thats not how business contracts work, especially bearing in mind, in one corner a experienced, shrewd lawyer, one corner a very small business (and people) with a tiny business having accesses to £6.8m to throw around and then in the other corner - off shore accounts and businesses and finally in the other corner, possible money laundering and illegal activities.

We have total evidence of the £6.8m payments and the re-acquirement of the shares, we dont know how a small company would be willing and able to pay £6.8m for a club that the owners brought for £1 2 years earlier, we don't know why KT / DB have spoke about all the details of the transactions etc, we don't know why the Chinese hasn't broken KT legs  Grin (they did make a challenge, so would suggest they not happy)  Again it is the whole point, after DC, fans still seem to not worry about iffy dealing by our owners, why the football rots arounds them as the owners work on asset striping the football, all in the name of development

Random I'm going to come back with some more questions/clarifications. I'm not looking for an argument. I think if you and others (including but not limited to GPC) can address some of these points clearly (and, crucially, evidence any claims you make) you're far more likely to bring people with you...

1) In the underlined part of your post, what are you actually alleging and can you evidence it? Please be very clear.
2) You say "we have total evidence" of particular transactions or parts of them. Why is this not being shared to back up the claims that yourself and others are making?
3) Do you have any real reason to doubt that any or all of the consideration was returned to 5U, or is that an assumption on your part? Appreciate it is difficult to prove a negative, but if you don't have any evidence it is an assumption nonetheless.

As an aside to 1), without any evidence/proof of wrongdoing I'd say you're sailing pretty close to the wind mate so choose your words carefully. I'd hate to see anyone get into hot water for trying to do what they see as the best by their club, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.
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« Reply #526 on: July 23, 2021, 10:00:19 am »

FWIW, I am loving the debate that's going on currently re this emotive topic.

In my opinion, there do seem to be a couple of distinct camps? Those that are fans who are unhappy with the goings on at "our club" and those that are fans who are probably separating the match day experience from the rest of the business?

Before anyone comments, both sides of this are perfectly entitled to their opinions. Also, neither camp deserve abuse from the other just because their viewpoint differs.

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« Reply #527 on: July 23, 2021, 10:03:28 am »

Agree. This is probably the longest the debate has gone on without descending into bickering or abuse (bar 1 post).
Certainly two very distinct positions but ultimately everyone wants the same thing which is for the club to succeed.
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« Reply #528 on: July 23, 2021, 10:03:49 am »

so how often do you post on the Sainsbury's / Next / B&M / McDonalds etc fans forum?

Do you get into debate with other customers about the actions of their board members and owners?

Funnily enough, I don't. But then I'm not an "interested party" in any of their affairs. If I did though I'd have every bit as little/much right to tell them how they should be running their business as any of us do on here!
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« Reply #529 on: July 23, 2021, 10:23:59 am »

Funnily enough, I don't. But then I'm not an "interested party" in any of their affairs. If I did though I'd have every bit as little/much right to tell them how they should be running their business as any of us do on here!

Exactly my point BOTN,  football clubs and their owners are and should be, under far more scrutiny that other businesses because they serve and represent the community they are in.

If you don't care about the behaviour of our owners, fine no problem, just stop caring about those that actually do as you question and scrutinise every statement or post anyone puts against the owners.
 
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« Reply #530 on: July 23, 2021, 10:32:04 am »

Random I'm going to come back with some more questions/clarifications. I'm not looking for an argument. I think if you and others (including but not limited to GPC) can address some of these points clearly (and, crucially, evidence any claims you make) you're far more likely to bring people with you...

1) In the underlined part of your post, what are you actually alleging and can you evidence it? Please be very clear.
2) You say "we have total evidence" of particular transactions or parts of them. Why is this not being shared to back up the claims that yourself and others are making?
3) Do you have any real reason to doubt that any or all of the consideration was returned to 5U, or is that an assumption on your part? Appreciate it is difficult to prove a negative, but if you don't have any evidence it is an assumption nonetheless.

As an aside to 1), without any evidence/proof of wrongdoing I'd say you're sailing pretty close to the wind mate so choose your words carefully. I'd hate to see anyone get into hot water for trying to do what they see as the best by their club, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

The problem is Parrot, there is certain confirmed evidence of payments etc but a lot of it doesn't make sense. Ultimately when you look at the source of the £6.8m funds, they came from a small company in China with no visible financial track record and I feel it is at least fair to question why and where the money came from. They said education !!! Buying a football club for over 6 x the owners had invested in doesn't make any sense does it?   would you agree? 

Again all this about legal this, legal that, for me it's about trust, do you trust the owners to do their best for NTFC? and if you do great, but please tell me how they have won your trust?   
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« Reply #531 on: July 23, 2021, 10:48:24 am »

The problem is Parrot, there is certain confirmed evidence of payments etc but a lot of it doesn't make sense. Ultimately when you look at the source of the £6.8m funds, they came from a small company in China with no visible financial track record and I feel it is at least fair to question why and where the money came from. They said education !!! Buying a football club for over 6 x the owners had invested in doesn't make any sense does it?   would you agree? 

Again all this about legal this, legal that, for me it's about trust, do you trust the owners to do their best for NTFC? and if you do great, but please tell me how they have won your trust?   

Absolutely fair questions to ask, Random. I think mine were too though and, with respect, you haven't answered them.

I always want as complete an understanding as possible of a situation before I draw any conclusions. Unfortunately all I've got at the moment is unevidenced claims from yourself, GPC (e.g. movement of monies to BDJ) and others. You're clearly well-intentioned, and the things you're talking about are obvious to you because you say you've seen the evidence. You're asking the rest of us to just take claims on here at face-value and be as outraged as you are. For me, that's not how it works.
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« Reply #532 on: July 23, 2021, 11:06:48 am »

Parrot, how many times have you questioned KT?

Did you take it at face value when he joined and said he had £4m in invest? did you ask him for evidence? 

Did you ask KT for evidence why we should believe him that a £3m build of the East stand is the best value for our football club?

Why suddenly are you so interested in seeing the Trust's evidence?  Why do you trust KT and not the long serving, loyal supporters who have dedicated their lives ensuring that you have a club to support?  Do you really think they would publish lies against KT?

Did they publish the fact that they kept the club going at the end of DC era, they paid the staff wages to stop them leaving, they paid £1500, again in cash, to provide payment for the team bus so that we could fulfil an away fixture or two. Did they then make it known the KT had reneged on return that money to the Trust as agreed?  no they didn't, they didn't want to paint KT in a bad light I assume.

Did they post and complain after they didn't receive the normal thanks in the programme and tannoy when they sponsored a match?  no they didn't, but the club were petty enough to do so in the first place.

After being out in the cold KT called upon the Trust to support the land deal with NBC as they obviously indicated that the Trust view is important, so again they didn't hold it against KT, they tried to help. Obviously in light of the previous chairman etc, they wanted to know more details of what the deal actually was, so they asked the questions that KT invited. KT again didn't like be held accountable to the fans so launched an anti-Trust PR exercise. The rest is history 

So finally after 6 years of poor treatment by KT, they have finally grown and pair and said enough is enough
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« Reply #533 on: July 23, 2021, 11:13:05 am »

Parrot, how many times have you questioned KT?

Did you take it at face value when he joined and said he had £4m in invest? did you ask him for evidence? 

Did you ask KT for evidence why we should believe him that a £3m build of the East stand is the best value for our football club?

Why suddenly are you so interested in seeing the Trust's evidence?  Why do you trust KT and not the long serving, loyal supporters who have dedicated their lives ensuring that you have a club to support?  Do you really think they would publish lies against KT?

Did they publish the fact that they kept the club going at the end of DC era, they paid the staff wages to stop them leaving, they paid £1500, again in cash, to provide payment for the team bus so that we could fulfil an away fixture or two. Did they then make it known the KT had reneged on return that money to the Trust as agreed?  no they didn't, they didn't want to paint KT in a bad light I assume.

Did they post and complain after they didn't receive the normal thanks in the programme and tannoy when they sponsored a match?  no they didn't, but the club were petty enough to do so in the first place.

After being out in the cold KT called upon the Trust to support the land deal with NBC as they obviously indicated that the Trust view is important, so again they didn't hold it against KT, they tried to help. Obviously in light of the previous chairman etc, they wanted to know more details of what the deal actually was, so they asked the questions that KT invited. KT again didn't like be held accountable to the fans so launched an anti-Trust PR exercise. The rest is history 

So finally after 6 years of poor treatment by KT, they have finally grown and pair and said enough is enough

I'm sorry mate but you're missing the point entirely and falling into a common habit on here of just being p**sed off that someone doesn't agree with you.

I haven't said that I trust or mistrust anybody on either side. I also haven't stated my opinion on the way KT/DB have run the club, handled the East Stand or managed their relationship with the trust (not for a long time anyway).

What I'm trying to do is level the playing field. If we're all furnished with the same facts and evidence, we can have a proper discussion about the rights and wrongs of what has or hasn't gone on.
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« Reply #534 on: July 23, 2021, 11:27:46 am »

To put it another way mate, I'll readily admit that I don't take as keen an interest in the business side of the club as you and others do. I tend to take what the club, owners and staff say at face value. Call me naive but for me it's too stressful to approach it another way and to do so would impact my enjoyment of supporting the club. No I'm not happy looking at that stand every week, but frankly no I can't be arsed to do a lot about it for as long as it doesn't drive a threat to me being able to watch my club play league football.

What's different now is that direct and sometimes serious allegations are being made of shady, immoral and even illegal behaviour. If proven or at least evidenced to a degree that warrants taking them seriously, these are the kinds of things that would change my stance from the above. That's why I want to understand them better and therefore ask questions. It's nothing to do with taking sides - I couldn't care less in that regard.
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« Reply #535 on: July 23, 2021, 11:45:14 am »

To put it another way mate, I'll readily admit that I don't take as keen an interest in the business side of the club as you and others do. I tend to take what the club, owners and staff say at face value. Call me naive but for me it's too stressful to approach it another way and to do so would impact my enjoyment of supporting the club. No I'm not happy looking at that stand every week, but frankly no I can't be arsed to do a lot about it for as long as it doesn't drive a threat to me being able to watch my club play league football.

What's different now is that direct and sometimes serious allegations are being made of shady, immoral and even illegal behaviour. If proven or at least evidenced to a degree that warrants taking them seriously, these are the kinds of things that would change my stance from the above. That's why I want to understand them better and therefore ask questions. It's nothing to do with taking sides - I couldn't care less in that regard.

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« Reply #536 on: July 23, 2021, 11:56:12 am »

Exactly my point BOTN,  football clubs and their owners are and should be, under far more scrutiny that other businesses because they serve and represent the community they are in.

If you don't care about the behaviour of our owners, fine no problem, just stop caring about those that actually do as you question and scrutinise every statement or post anyone puts against the owners.
 

We're straying here into a territory that is a real bug bear of mine: absolutism. You seem to see me as blindly pro-KT and equally as blindly anti-anyone-against-KT.

That isn't the truth. I'm pro-balance and pro-fairness, so let me lay out my thoughts on both factions:

The Trust (and friends)
I've said on a number of occasions that I think the Trust is a good thing in principle, I'm proud that the Trust movement started with us and I want us to have an effective Trust going forwards. That said, in my opinion, the current Trust have behaved disgracefully over the last few years, having tantrums, throwing around allegations and insinuations like confetti and seemingly doing everything in their power to undermine the club at every turn. None of this sits well with me.

KT/DB
I actually think they have done a decent amount to bring us forwards as a community club. They stepped in and bailed us out and have continued to support the club's on field activities. OK, we're back where we started from but you really can't accuse them of not backing their managers financially but in a sensible manner. That said, they ain't really here for the football, are they? That's a fun side show. The real game is to make money from the surrounding area. When they've done that, they'll move along, taking the majority of that money with them. I think the difference between me and you on this one random is you're an idealist and I'm a realist; I have no problem with them making their money and moving along. I'd like to think they'll leave the club in a sound place when they go, but at this point that is on trust (as it would be with any other owner).

I really don't care how they manage their own money as long as it doesn't affect the club. Thus far, it doesn't seem to be in any real terms, so I'm happy. Would I rather they gifted money to the club instead of loaned it? Yes, of course, but why would they do that? I certainly have no expectation of them to do so.

And yes, actually, on a personal note I quite like KT. He comes over well, he talks to people, he isn't aloof the way Cardoza was. I sit not a million miles from the directors box and while I've never spoken to him directly, when he's at games he chats freely with people, laughing and joking with them and people seem to like him. From what I've seen, there are far more people amongst our fanbase in this camp than in the camp that seem to view him as the anti-christ.

Personally, I feel more engaged with the club under his stewardship than at any time in my 23 years or so as a season ticket holder.

Picking a side
I do not want to have to "pick a side". I want our club to be one that has a board and a Trust that can be civil and start working together, and not so long back I thought we were going to get that before the Trust reverted to type. Over the last few years, the club have kept a pretty dignified silence in the face of rather a lot of niggly provocation from the Trust (until recently at least when they appear to have come out swinging!)

I respect what KT & DB are trying to do here and, having worked for companies in the past that have been stymied in what they were trying to do by stakeholders lobbing in grenades at every turn, I felt some sympathy for them.

So for me it is who do you align yourself with? The quiet, polite guy just trying to get on with his job and make a few quid or the gobby, aggressive agitator shouting abuse from the sidelines? Yes, the time everything is taking is frustrating but I've seen nothing that makes me think KT & DB shouldn't be supported in what they are trying to do. Seeing people whinge and moan and criticise everything someone does winds me right up though.

Maybe it's more about perceptions and levels of patience and maybe I just like to think the best of people, but for the time being I'm content to let everything continue to play out as it is because I think things are going, very slowly, in the right direction.

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« Reply #537 on: July 23, 2021, 12:31:19 pm »

Parrot, how many times have you questioned KT?

How many times have you?  In person or in writing.....not on a messageboard.  What did he say?
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« Reply #538 on: July 23, 2021, 12:32:33 pm »

To put it another way mate, I'll readily admit that I don't take as keen an interest in the business side of the club as you and others do. I tend to take what the club, owners and staff say at face value. Call me naive but for me it's too stressful to approach it another way and to do so would impact my enjoyment of supporting the club. No I'm not happy looking at that stand every week, but frankly no I can't be arsed to do a lot about it for as long as it doesn't drive a threat to me being able to watch my club play league football.

What's different now is that direct and sometimes serious allegations are being made of shady, immoral and even illegal behaviour. If proven or at least evidenced to a degree that warrants taking them seriously, these are the kinds of things that would change my stance from the above. That's why I want to understand them better and therefore ask questions. It's nothing to do with taking sides - I couldn't care less in that regard.
Unfortunately mate you can’t demarcate between the business side and what happens on the field, they are so linked it’s untrue.
I know what you mean about not wanting to get involved in the business side and KTs running of the club. BUT this is called Apathy and Cobblers fans are full of it and it plays into the owners hands.
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« Reply #539 on: July 23, 2021, 12:36:38 pm »

How many times have you?  In person or in writing.....not on a messageboard.  What did he say?
What he thinks you want to hear, actions always speak louder than words, Kelvin Thomas’s spectacular failure to run our club is there for all to see, no real assets of value, the stadium in a terrible condition, broken windows, the “big screen” broken etc etc back in L2 and all this for a bargain £7m.
In any other business he’d be down the road long ago!!!
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