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Best X1 players versus Best team

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DrillingCobbler
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« on: March 15, 2023, 16:03:53 pm »

I think its fair to say that last nights performance was the best one since the victory over Orient. The team was resilient, creative and extremely organised.

My 13 year old son made a couple of interesting observations both before the game and afterwards. On the way he said that Pinnock being unavailable which meant Honder's inclusion was probably 'a blessing in disguise'. Firstly he likes Pinnock a lot, but its fair to say that his form hasn't been great in recent times. Secondly, and I may influence him here, he couldn't understand why Honders wasn't being given more game time before last night.
On the way home he said that we seem to play better when we've got the most injuries which (a) is probably true & (b) when the team effectively picks itself. Like it did last night...

My point is thus. Does Brady make the same mistake as 99% of other managers when he picks his best 11 players rather than his best team?

Lintott was great during the early part of the season, then we ended up having players coming back to full fitness and ones that were playing out of position there instead. On a few occasions, Harvey didn't even make the bench.
Another prime example of this theory is that it seems that each time Tyler Magloire becomes available he is shoe horned back into the starting line up. We've also changed formation in what seems an attempt to 'accommodate him'. Continuing on from this example, we then have Pinnock playing out of position because there are only 3 midfield slots and those slots are all central (due to the wingbacks).

This is far from being a negative post, I think its fair to say I am one of the more 'positive upbeat' people who contribute to this forum! However I am also a great advocator of choosing a formation and then picking the best 'specialist' in each position. Of course there may be exceptions whereby your first choice and second choice right backs may both be injured so you may be better off playing your 2nd choice left back there instead, simply because he's better than the 18 year old from the youth team. BUT. In most cases it could be argued that we have decent enough depth in all positions in our current squad to stop us having to go off piste and play players out of position.

I think last night and during the early part of the season (even the 2nd half v Hartlepool) have demonstrated that we are far more effective when we select a totally balanced side, even if it doesn't contain some of its 'star players'. Both performance wise and results wise. We have also been at our worst during a period when we had the most players available.

Just wondered what other peoples thoughts were!



  
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2023, 16:56:12 pm »

Good post mate.

One thing that is very apparent is the hunger of the players that don't command a regular spot. Far too many longer contracted players enjoy the luxury of a virtually guaranteed place in the side, regardless of often fluctuating form. I’d love to think that Brady learns from this spell. I would be chatting to some of these guys now about contracts and their potential to earn a regular spot.

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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2023, 17:10:48 pm »

Last night illustrated that our recruitment has assembled one of the best depth of squads for many a year.
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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2023, 17:21:48 pm »

What an excellent, thought-provoking thread, Drilling. The fringe players who have found themselves thrown into the mix due to our injuries crisis, have really stepped up and most have produced bravura performances. Hondermarck was awesome last night. I am waiting for DWP and the Yeti to show us what they are capable of …
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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2023, 17:31:59 pm »

Interesting thread and I agree with all the posts so far.

I'm a big JB fan, but I do think one of his weaknesses is having favourites, who play regardless of the formation or more attacking or defensive tactics. Pinnock is on example and there's also the McGowan v Lintott debate, which has appeared on another thread. Both are good players. In my opinion, McGowan is a better defender and Lintott is better going forward, but when McGowan is fit, he is always first choice, even when we play a wing-back system. I don't remember seeing McGowan ever get to the bye-line and put a pass or cross in, whereas Lintott has done it half a dozen times in the last few games.

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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2023, 18:14:16 pm »

What an excellent, thought-provoking thread, Drilling. The fringe players who have found themselves thrown into the mix due to our injuries crisis, have really stepped up and most have produced bravura performances. Hondermarck was awesome last night. I am waiting for DWP and the Yeti to show us what they are capable of …

I'm waiting for DWP to be given the chance to show us what he's capable of.
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2023, 18:32:53 pm »

Great post.

On paper, Brady's persistence with Pinnock has made sense to me: he's been short of the high standards he set last season but he's still got 10 goal involvements (6 assists and 4 goals) which puts him in the top 5-6 attacking midfielders in the division.

Pinnock is our best set piece taker and probably remains the most able creator in the squad.

However, there's no doubt that we played better without him yesterday. The 3-5-2 formation suited the players we had available and the likes of Appere, Hondermark, Haynes and Lintott seemed liberated by the switch in system.

Hondermark is more effective than Pinnock as the most advanced of the central three, primarily because he is far better defensively and therefore leaves less of a burden on his deeper-lying midfield partners. I think it's no coincidence that Sowerby and Leonard played so well: without Pinnock they had a bit less defensive work to do and could get on the ball and dictate things from deep. Hondermark is also more effective at carrying the ball with pace and getting us up the field, whereas Pinnock tends to want to drift out wide (which is far and away his best position).

Haynes for me is a natural wing-back rather than a full back and if he is going to have a run in the team then that is the best place to deploy him. Lintott is also showing signs of developing into an excellent wing-back. If time is spent on the training ground working on their crossing ability and link up play then we could pose a real threat out wide.

Hopefully Brady will stick with the 3-5-2 for now, with the main points of competition being Bowie vs Appere to start as one of the front two, and McWilliams (when he returns) to compete for a central midfield starting berth.

I suspect, however, that he'll be tempted to put Pinnock straight back in. 







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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2023, 19:01:30 pm »

Good post Drilling, and I agree with the comments made by posters afterwards too.

Brady stuck by the same players week in week out, I don't know what that does to the fringe player or when they get their chance to cover for an injury to someone for a game or two and then get dropped back out it must be a bit demoralising. As Tel says, when they do get a chance they look hungry, but when that hunger and those good performances do not translate into a starting berth it must takes its toll.

I do wonder too if the logic of offering long term contracts to players has made some of them feel too comfortable and untouchable and has led to a noticeable dip in form and drop in performance as a result.

The benefit of having a big squad should be that there is competition for places all over, and you get into the team on merit and continued good form. If you aren't performing you get dropped and the next man comes in, same for injuries if the new man performs.......everyone should have to fight for their place, competition is healthy!
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2023, 19:33:12 pm »


I do wonder too if the logic of offering long term contracts to players has made some of them feel too comfortable and untouchable and has led to a noticeable dip in form and drop in performance as a result.


Swings and roundabouts. Don’t offer longer contacts and players who have good seasons get poached by other clubs. I still think it makes sense to tie down players performing well.
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2023, 21:11:43 pm »

Good post Drilling, and I agree with the comments made by posters afterwards too.

Brady stuck by the same players week in week out, I don't know what that does to the fringe player or when they get their chance to cover for an injury to someone for a game or two and then get dropped back out it must be a bit demoralising. As Tel says, when they do get a chance they look hungry, but when that hunger and those good performances do not translate into a starting berth it must takes its toll.

I do wonder too if the logic of offering long term contracts to players has made some of them feel too comfortable and untouchable and has led to a noticeable dip in form and drop in performance as a result.

The benefit of having a big squad should be that there is competition for places all over, and you get into the team on merit and continued good form. If you aren't performing you get dropped and the next man comes in, same for injuries if the new man performs.......everyone should have to fight for their place, competition is healthy!

Not very many would disagree with your post. I echo your comments on Drillings positive post. Your point on Bradys selection policy is topical! Its a bit damned if you do and damned if you don't. One of the problems at the end of a successful season we lose 2/3 players and possibly the manager as well. At the beginning of the season Haynes figured in the opening games but his performances declined and was dropped. Lintott had a few games but did struggle at first and has now played well enough to play regularly. These fringe players were generally brought in as just that and have to bide their time before making the first team as regulars. Offering extended Contracts to certain players was probably the best way to secure loyalty to the club. You cannot plan for tail off of supposed performance/form based on contract extension. The more competition there is for places the better as it puts pressure on the 'holder'. Even Hoskins has been subbed recently so perhaps team places become a premium. When the likes of McWilliams, Magloire and McGowan become available will they regain their places?
The first two former players are injury prone and are are risk.
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2023, 21:21:58 pm »

Good post mate.

One thing that is very apparent is the hunger of the players that don't command a regular spot. Far too many longer contracted players enjoy the luxury of a virtually guaranteed place in the side, regardless of often fluctuating form. I’d love to think that Brady learns from this spell. I would be chatting to some of these guys now about contracts and their potential to earn a regular spot.


Those players who had contracts extended where players mainly responsible for the pre Christmas Form no wonder JB stuck with them! Also I don't necessarily agree with those players are guaranteed their place in the team; as I recently pointed out even Hoskins was subbed recently!
In my view the Manager should pick his best side based on fitness,skill level, experience and ability.
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2023, 07:07:56 am »

Not sure what this means but if you consider our successful sides of the past there were barely any changes and the starting line up was nearly always the same. I can name the starting line up from 86/87 even now. To that end does this add merit to the argument that injuries apart sticking with a consistent line up trumps constant meddling to accommodate those in form? This is a genuine question rather than an opinion by the way.
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2023, 08:31:00 am »

This is what I have been saying, most successful sides have been able to select an unchanged, or with only minor changes, for a good proportion of their games. With our injuries and constantly having to change the starting 11 makes it more of an achievement to be where we are in the league.
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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2023, 09:21:54 am »

Well done Drilling - for airing such a thought provoking post and managing to encourage almost a page of positive, constructive well thought out comments. That’s a very rare achievement on this site - still time for MC and Beds to pop on though and slag off JB and CT.

Personally, I agree with most that’s been said - especially about Pinnock. I also relate to Mellers point as well and would rather see consistency than bringing in “in form” fringe players. The performance on Tuesday is a lot down to our squad strength (quality) - thank you JB and CT.

That said, if JB doesn’t put McWilliams straight back in the first XI when he’s fit enough, I’ll be furious with him!! Gee, who’d be a football manager eh?

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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2023, 11:43:22 am »

I think Jon has been extremely loyal to a lot of the players that got us this high in the league, he admitted as much. Its admirable in one capacity but also could potentially be his downfall if this is something he always proceeds with.

I am very much a square pegs in square holes kind of fan. I dont like to see players shoehorned in simply to ensure they are included. As has been mentioned, when Magloire is fit it feels like we do whatever we can to ensure he, Sherring and Guthrie all play, regardless of how it effects the balance of play. The same goes for Pinnock and McGowan.

I feel like JB know needs to show that same faith in those that have come in and performed so well. Also one thing we need to do more of is develop potential saleable assets. As much as I want to see players stay with us for a long time if we want to be able to move forward we need to be able to generate funds with big fees for players. Hondemarck and Lintott hold potential to develop beyond us and generate money for the club. Not only that, they deserve to be starting based on their recent performances.

Also if you look at the stats on say McGowan v Lintott they are very similar. The biggest difference being that McGowan is more of a potential target from Goal Kicks (although Lintott is good in the air) and Lintott is far more likely to burst forward wit the ball like Brendan Moloney used to do.

I definitely think going with the best team is the way forward. Let the others make an impact off the bench but lets reward those that come in and make an impact. I do think there is the odd exception, but I hope we get to see some of these keep their place in the starting XI.
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2023, 19:58:11 pm »

I'm disappointed, from reading the thread title, I thought it was going to be a historical topic about which was our best ever 11 players and how would they get on against our best ever team, which ever that was.

Perhaps that is a thread to be saved for the deepest depths of the close season whilst we are waiting for the summer signings to be made (or not if you are part of the despair clan).
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2023, 06:16:22 am »

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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2023, 08:41:49 am »

I think Jon has been extremely loyal to a lot of the players that got us this high in the league, he admitted as much. Its admirable in one capacity but also could potentially be his downfall if this is something he always proceeds with.

I am very much a square pegs in square holes kind of fan. I dont like to see players shoehorned in simply to ensure they are included. As has been mentioned, when Magloire is fit it feels like we do whatever we can to ensure he, Sherring and Guthrie all play, regardless of how it effects the balance of play. The same goes for Pinnock and McGowan.

I feel like JB know needs to show that same faith in those that have come in and performed so well. Also one thing we need to do more of is develop potential saleable assets. As much as I want to see players stay with us for a long time if we want to be able to move forward we need to be able to generate funds with big fees for players. Hondemarck and Lintott hold potential to develop beyond us and generate money for the club. Not only that, they deserve to be starting based on their recent performances.

Also if you look at the stats on say McGowan v Lintott they are very similar. The biggest difference being that McGowan is more of a potential target from Goal Kicks (although Lintott is good in the air) and Lintott is far more likely to burst forward wit the ball like Brendan Moloney used to do.

I definitely think going with the best team is the way forward. Let the others make an impact off the bench but lets reward those that come in and make an impact. I do think there is the odd exception, but I hope we get to see some of these keep their place in the starting XI.
Couldn't agree more with this post.
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2023, 18:46:22 pm »

Couldn't agree more with this post.

Couldn't agree more with this post.

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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2023, 18:51:40 pm »

Not sure what this means but if you consider our successful sides of the past there were barely any changes and the starting line up was nearly always the same. I can name the starting line up from 86/87 even now. To that end does this add merit to the argument that injuries apart sticking with a consistent line up trumps constant meddling to accommodate those in form? This is a genuine question rather than an opinion by the way.

Wilder's 2015/2016 team changed quite radically from January onwards. Rico got injured; Collins and Marquis came in; we started playing 4-4-2 with James Martin on the wing; and most importantly, Ricky Holmes returned from injury and absolutely dominated the league.

IMO keeping consistency in terms of tactics and personnel is generally a good idea at this level, but only if your tactical system is actually working and your personnel are actually performing to their potential.

In our case, 4-3-3 was working really well until Xmas and we were the division's top scorers. Then Pinnock lost form, Bowie (the best no.9 in the system) and McWilliams (midfield lynchpin) got injured and suddenly we weren't creating chances anymore.

Now we've just produced one of our best performances of the season against a promotion rival playing 3-5-2 and I'd say it's time to shift semi-permanently to a system which suits the remaining members of our squad. If we can keep the starting line up against Mansfield relatively settled with a few areas of healthy competition (Bowie vs Appere, McWilliams vs Leonard, Dyche vs Magowan) then we could really see the side grow into the new formation. Effective wing-back interplay takes time and many hours on the training pitch - Lintott and Haynes have a high ceiling and if we can improve their crossing we could really be in business.  




 










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