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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1823233 times)
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« Reply #35700 on: October 04, 2022, 16:46:22 pm »

This is very much the significant part to me. It's like knocking on someone's door and saying "Can I pick a flower from that bush in your front garden?" then when you are told yes you get a digger and excavate their entire garden onto the back of your lorry.  "What? You said I could take stuff! I've not done anything wrong!"

And yes, I don't think anyone doubts the Trust mean well but there's a reason someone coined the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"...
I think they think they mean well.
But I don't believe they have the best interests of the club at heart. I think they did at some point but have become too blinded by the dislike of the current owners and their fantasy utopia of being a fan owned club.
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« Reply #35701 on: October 04, 2022, 16:47:17 pm »

So they want to protect the ACV but are bidding for the whole site?

Why, and more pertinently what are they going to do with it if they get it?

What about the existing leases?

I get there is commercial sensitivity here but the Trust are there to represent the fans. How are the fans meant to make an informed decision on whether they support this bid if they don't know where the money is coming from or what the backer expects in return?

Are the Trust members even going to get to make an informed decision? The Trust (just about) had a mandate to invoke the ACV but they don't have a mandate for a strategic financial investment/partnership of this magnitude. Are the members (and the wider fanbase) just going to have this foisted upon them without having any say in the matter?  

Hi BOTN

We had to bid for the whole site as we were pushed into taking this action by

1. KT & others putting pressure on GWS to pull out of our ACV only scheme, a scheme that would have put £250k into the club annually

2. The council stating that we would have to basically pay full price (£2m) for the ACV land to compensate the potential loss if CDNL walked away from the deal !!!!  Incredible I know !!!!

As the statement said more info will be forth coming if and when the council accept the offer

Yes the existing leases !!    which way do you and KT want it?   So if the club have 120+ year on the land and as KT indicated re GWS, that the freehold is irrelevant, then WHAT IS STOPPING HIM BUILDING THE STAND NOW?Huh?

The Trust was set-up to protect the football club from "bad owners" and or bad times. This "represent the fans", in KT's words, is a false narrative. No fans has ever, to my knowledge, been stopped from joining the membership or the board, from meeting or discussing issues with the board.

I am sorry that at this stage, you don't feel that we represent you, thats fine, there are plenty others that we do.



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« Reply #35702 on: October 04, 2022, 16:52:52 pm »

Having read the letter from the Trust 3 times now I'm confused.  When they talk about protecting the land and using it for the long term benefit of the football club.  Are they referring to all of the land they have bid for or just the ACV Running Track land?

Perhaps someone in the know or more intelligent than me can answer?  I'm pretty sure the answer wouldn't break any commercial confidentiality and would make a big difference to how I feel about this.
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« Reply #35703 on: October 04, 2022, 16:56:32 pm »

Yes the existing leases !!    which way do you and KT want it?   So if the club have 120+ year on the land and as KT indicated re GWS, that the freehold is irrelevant, then WHAT IS STOPPING HIM BUILDING THE STAND NOW?Huh?

I think it's more a question of how the existing leases on the dev and acv running track could prevent you doing anything with the land even if you take ownership.  I think it's a fair question to ask what plans you have in place to tackle that.

Also see my seperate question regarding the whole land or just the acv in the previous post.
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« Reply #35704 on: October 04, 2022, 17:05:18 pm »

With whose money and on what terms?
Or have you planted a Jeremy Corbyn (now LizTruss) money tree?
Have you actually seen the cdnl bank balance and the amount set aside to do what you accuse the trust of not having?
Let's keep things in perspective,  the truth will out eventually,  we just need our football club to be in corner of the safest hands ..Which I'm pretty certain is the trust.
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« Reply #35705 on: October 04, 2022, 17:10:59 pm »

I think it's more a question of how the existing leases on the dev and acv running track could prevent you doing anything with the land even if you take ownership.  I think it's a fair question to ask what plans you have in place to tackle that.

Also see my seperate question regarding the whole land or just the acv in the previous post.

I don't think anything can be done without the agreement of the leaseholder, NTFC, therefore it goes back to KT as to why would you be worried about the freeholder if you have a 125 year lease.

The main crux is the reluctance to develop the stand. He stated at the forum, they have the money, it makes no sense not to develop, so go ahead and do it, just like you said you would 7 years ago.

I personally don't understand that if KT is so desperate to get the stand done then why not get on with it long before now. Of course it is only words, along with a history of blaming everyone and everything for the delays.

I don't get why you need to protect the football club when he says that have a 5 year clause (stating if we don't build) to build, why the football club needs to own the ACV.

I don't get why this matter has been so drawn out and none of it makes any sense  -
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« Reply #35706 on: October 04, 2022, 17:12:38 pm »

I think we can both expect to be called DB's bastard love children and that we go down on KT for fun.
Neither,  just nieve.
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« Reply #35707 on: October 04, 2022, 17:16:30 pm »

Hi BOTN

We had to bid for the whole site as we were pushed into taking this action by

1. KT & others putting pressure on GWS to pull out of our ACV only scheme, a scheme that would have put £250k into the club annually

This has changed from "up to £250k" to a nailed on £250k now it isn't happening. And I'm tired of hearing how KT and co torpedoed this deal like that makes him the bad guy. He protected his interests and if he didn't I wouldn't consider him competent enough to be allowed near our club.

2. The council stating that we would have to basically pay full price (£2m) for the ACV land to compensate the potential loss if CDNL walked away from the deal !!!!  Incredible I know !!!!

So hang on, are you suggesting that the Trust is bidding £3m for the whole site because the council wanted £2m for the ACV land and you thought "oh well, in for a penny in for a pound"?

As the statement said more info will be forth coming if and when the council accept the offer

Yes the existing leases !!    which way do you and KT want it?   So if the club have 120+ year on the land and as KT indicated re GWS, that the freehold is irrelevant, then WHAT IS STOPPING HIM BUILDING THE STAND NOW?Huh?

How many times do we have to have this same, cyclical argument?! The enabling development, y'know, enables the stand completion. The clue is in the name. Plus it's an excellent bargaining chip to throw into the mix to get the wider deal over the line. Again, if he just threw money at completing the stand without any guarantees he'd be able to purchase the surrounding land I would question his sanity, let alone his competence. By the by, if the Trust and their mysterious partner are successful in buying the land from the council, what will they be doing with it to fund the stand completion, not to mention the day to day running of the football club if the current owners walk away?

The Trust was set-up to protect the football club from "bad owners" and or bad times. This "represent the fans", in KT's words, is a false narrative. No fans has ever, to my knowledge, been stopped from joining the membership or the board, from meeting or discussing issues with the board.

I am sorry that at this stage, you don't feel that we represent you, thats fine, there are plenty others that we do.

Really? Were they all on the Trust bus at the weekend then? Because beyond the usual cheerleading squad of Chris, Tony, Steve and John I see very few people singing from the Trust hymn sheet.



Edit: oh, and just to ask, if the Trust have so many people they do represent, are you going to be putting this deal before them to get it ratified? Y'know, like what they do in a democracy?
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« Reply #35708 on: October 04, 2022, 17:21:01 pm »

meanwhile down the road:

28/10/21 The saints apply for planning permission to build a state of the art indoor training facility

26/5/22 Full planning is granted by WNC

8/7/22 Digger on site for photo op and saying will be ready early 2023


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« Reply #35709 on: October 04, 2022, 17:21:14 pm »

I don't think anything can be done without the agreement of the leaseholder, NTFC, therefore it goes back to KT as to why would you be worried about the freeholder if you have a 125 year lease.

To bring you back to the point being made it is the Trust Boards problem to deal with IF they take ownership of all of the land.  The ACV Running Track is well covered by a long lease and the dev land by a lease that would require breaking.  So simple question once again what plans do the Trust have to deal with the lease issues.  The Council made it clear the leases were a major problem for anyone other than the club/CDNL taking ownership so what do you plan on doing about it?  If you can't detail the plan at least tell me there is one.

Surely you'll be heading for certain failure if you (The Trust Board) don't deal with that?
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« Reply #35710 on: October 04, 2022, 17:22:42 pm »


I don't get why this matter has been so drawn out and none of it makes any sense  -

I have a theory why that is but I won't share it because I'm trying to stay polite.
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« Reply #35711 on: October 04, 2022, 17:24:25 pm »

Edit: oh, and just to ask, if the Trust have so many people they do represent, are you going to be putting this deal before them to get it ratified? Y'know, like what they do in a democracy?

so you post that it is ok for KT to act in his own self interest in scuppering a deal of £250k annual deal for the club but then scream democracy for the board of a supporters Trust trying to protect the assets of our football club !!!!



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« Reply #35712 on: October 04, 2022, 17:30:06 pm »

I assume you have watched or listened to the meeting BOTN?

In it KT states on more than one occasion, that they have the money to complete the stand, just as he said 7 years ago.

You know when the supporters took him at his word and stood aside to let him take control of our football club

He has the money, the land deal he said was not even on the table when they said they would finish the stand.

Since then every single excuse in the book.

Even at the forum he said - i want to wait 5 years to build as prices might be cheaper then.

Does that not make alarm bells ring in your head?

Again meanwhile down the road, they don't seem to have any such concerns and are getting on developing their club, whilst we wait and wait and wait
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« Reply #35713 on: October 04, 2022, 17:31:02 pm »

meanwhile down the road:

28/10/21 The saints apply for planning permission to build a state of the art indoor training facility

26/5/22 Full planning is granted by WNC

8/7/22 Digger on site for photo op and saying will be ready early 2023

Amazing what can be achieved when a club and council are able to work together with no other external noises trying to scupper things isnt it.
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« Reply #35714 on: October 04, 2022, 17:36:38 pm »

so you post that it is ok for KT to act in his own self interest in scuppering a deal of £250k annual deal for the club but then scream democracy for the board of a supporters Trust trying to protect the assets of our football club !!!!


Yes, because NTFC don't claim to be a democracy, they are a private company who are quite entitled to act in their own best interests.

The Trust purport to be the voice of the fans and yet seeming don't want to listen to what most of us have to say, while showing no signs of putting this colossal decision before their members to get agreement. Why is that?
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« Reply #35715 on: October 04, 2022, 17:43:43 pm »

Amazing what can be achieved when a club and council are able to work together with no other external noises trying to scupper things isnt it.

Ha ha, so its the Trust's fault we are at this point 7 years on?  or even 12 if you count the Cardoza years

The Trust did the exact opposite 7 years ago to stand aside and let KT / DB take over after they proved £11m of funding with £4m ringfenced for investment and East stand SEVEN YEARS AGO

The Trust have become a very convenient fall guy in all this.

I for one, know 100% that if KT has done what he said, built the stand, developed the club in the community and had a plan, I would be there helping wherever i could, no question whatsoever.

I have seen little improvement - yes social media, some community stuff has improved, (but then it has at almost every club and business in the country) and excuse after excuse not to develop.

Even at forum, yes we will build the stand, but we will do it sensibly - fine but the focus should be on what an opportunity etc etc - with a £14m windfall in the name of the club (Chinese money and land deal) its not what you want to hear.



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« Reply #35716 on: October 04, 2022, 17:47:35 pm »

Yes, because NTFC don't claim to be a democracy, they are a private company who are quite entitled to act in their own best interests.

The Trust purport to be the voice of the fans and yet seeming don't want to listen to what most of us have to say, while showing no signs of putting this colossal decision before their members to get agreement. Why is that?

The Supporters Trust are members / shareholders of NTFC, do you think KT has ever consulted the Trust on any decision?

So if NTFC is a private company why are you so vigorous in defending the owners actions and attacking another party that might affect a private company you have no say or shares in?

You can't have it both ways!!  Unless of course you benefit in some way from the company, by way of salary or business??
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« Reply #35717 on: October 04, 2022, 17:49:30 pm »

Ha ha, so its the Trust's fault we are at this point 7 years on?  or even 12 if you count the Cardoza years

The Trust did the exact opposite 7 years ago to stand aside and let KT / DB take over after they proved £11m of funding with £4m ringfenced for investment and East stand SEVEN YEARS AGO

The Trust have become a very convenient fall guy in all this.

I for one, know 100% that if KT has done what he said, built the stand, developed the club in the community and had a plan, I would be there helping wherever i could, no question whatsoever.

I have seen little improvement - yes social media, some community stuff has improved, (but then it has at almost every club and business in the country) and excuse after excuse not to develop.

Even at forum, yes we will build the stand, but we will do it sensibly - fine but the focus should be on what an opportunity etc etc - with a £14m windfall in the name of the club (Chinese money and land deal) its not what you want to hear.

So you can spin but I can't? Stop being so blinkered and you might gain more respect for your opinions
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« Reply #35718 on: October 04, 2022, 17:52:30 pm »

So you can spin but I can't? Stop being so blinkered and you might gain more respect for your opinions

London I am not trying to be blinkered at all, really.

I am just stating what has happened in the past, and that is generally a good indicator for the future.

Don't you agree?

If not what exactly am I spinning?




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« Reply #35719 on: October 04, 2022, 17:53:48 pm »

Having read the letter from the Trust 3 times now I'm confused.  When they talk about protecting the land and using it for the long term benefit of the football club.  Are they referring to all of the land they have bid for or just the ACV Running Track land?

Perhaps someone in the know or more intelligent than me can answer?  I'm pretty sure the answer wouldn't break any commercial confidentiality and would make a big difference to how I feel about this.

Random, as you are here would you mind answering this please?
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