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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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« Reply #28720 on: June 25, 2021, 11:38:48 am »

Actually a rare time in the redevelopment history when there’s some interesting things going on 😂

I’m a critic of Kelvin, and so am going tonight to hear what he has to say and also see the offering. Trying to be as open minded as I can. I’d hope a few others make the same effort 👍🏽
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« Reply #28721 on: June 25, 2021, 11:47:52 am »

I think our supporters should read the response carefully. David Bower and Kelvin Thomas have indeed put money into the club, but it is loan capital, something to the tune of £6 million. This is a financial obligation of the club, not a gift, even if it is interest free. It is welcome, because it ensures that the club remains a going concern, and without it the club is instantly dead, as the auditors confirm in the most recent accounts. That has been the case for the last 20 years or more, but the club has never carried so much long-term debt. I would guess that the owners regard the club as a business and not an emotional investment, so they want something back. They have no chance of getting it back from core activities, as the club is loss making and has required at least £0.5 million annual injections of funds for the last two years. So the only realistic prospect of getting it back is to sell (which they did to 5U Sport (the Chinese investor), very briefly, but may do again) or realise some capital gain on the adjoining land. So there are two risks:

Firstly, West Northamptonshire Council may kill the land deal. They inherit a situation that is not of their own making, though some of the individual decision takers are the same. They are accountable to Northamptonshire taxpayers, many of which are hostile to the club for historic reasons (mostly the missing £10 million). Even if the development goes ahead, it will be subject to close scrutiny and will take a long time. If I was not interested in football I'd say they have bigger, more important priorities.

Secondly, the entire destiny of NTFC is dependent on one septuagenarian, offshore-based investor. Kelvin doesn't come into the equation; he is probably richer than me but I don't know if he has the means to pick it up and run with it. Personally, I wish David Bower a long, healthy and happy life, but none of us last forever. When Booth (former owner of Rotherham United) retired, none of his kids were interested and the club lost Millmoor. They landed on their feet. Eventually. Think about it.

Finally, this so-called, mysterious 'hidden agenda' of the Trust. The response says that the Trust wants to buy the club for £1. With respect, the question says 'Would you sell for £1?', which is a perfectly reasonable question as that is what they bought it for. I have been to every Trust board meeting except one for the last year and cannot recall ever discussing the Trust buying the club. Discussions of ownership models, including '50+1' have taken place, but I personally have never seen or heard a hidden agenda. I'm on the board because I want my kids and their kids to have a club to support. I don't want to own it because at 68 years old I've got enough to do.
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« Reply #28722 on: June 25, 2021, 12:24:10 pm »

I think our supporters should read the response carefully. David Bower and Kelvin Thomas have indeed put money into the club, but it is loan capital, something to the tune of £6 million. This is a financial obligation of the club, not a gift, even if it is interest free. It is welcome, because it ensures that the club remains a going concern, and without it the club is instantly dead, as the auditors confirm in the most recent accounts. That has been the case for the last 20 years or more, but the club has never carried so much long-term debt. I would guess that the owners regard the club as a business and not an emotional investment, so they want something back. They have no chance of getting it back from core activities, as the club is loss making and has required at least £0.5 million annual injections of funds for the last two years. So the only realistic prospect of getting it back is to sell (which they did to 5U Sport (the Chinese investor), very briefly, but may do again) or realise some capital gain on the adjoining land. So there are two risks:

Firstly, West Northamptonshire Council may kill the land deal. They inherit a situation that is not of their own making, though some of the individual decision takers are the same. They are accountable to Northamptonshire taxpayers, many of which are hostile to the club for historic reasons (mostly the missing £10 million). Even if the development goes ahead, it will be subject to close scrutiny and will take a long time. If I was not interested in football I'd say they have bigger, more important priorities.

Secondly, the entire destiny of NTFC is dependent on one septuagenarian, offshore-based investor. Kelvin doesn't come into the equation; he is probably richer than me but I don't know if he has the means to pick it up and run with it. Personally, I wish David Bower a long, healthy and happy life, but none of us last forever. When Booth (former owner of Rotherham United) retired, none of his kids were interested and the club lost Millmoor. They landed on their feet. Eventually. Think about it.

Finally, this so-called, mysterious 'hidden agenda' of the Trust. The response says that the Trust wants to buy the club for £1. With respect, the question says 'Would you sell for £1?', which is a perfectly reasonable question as that is what they bought it for. I have been to every Trust board meeting except one for the last year and cannot recall ever discussing the Trust buying the club. Discussions of ownership models, including '50+1' have taken place, but I personally have never seen or heard a hidden agenda. I'm on the board because I want my kids and their kids to have a club to support. I don't want to own it because at 68 years old I've got enough to do.

Some fair points. The club, like most clubs, is financially insecure.

So how is making a song and dance and publicly withdrawing the Trust's support for the club's plans helping matters? It casts doubt in the non-football going populous's minds about the integrity of the current owners and makes it harder for the wider redevelopment to be approved, which in turn makes it more likely that your doomsday scenario will occur and the owners write it off as a bad investment
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« Reply #28723 on: June 25, 2021, 12:24:49 pm »

The only financial salvation for the owners lies in the non-ACV land adjacent to the stadium. The club has a lease on this land, and the whole issue of securing a right to develop that land depends on Council consent, as the Council owns the freehold. However, the lease on the non-ACV land is subject to a break clause in 2024, at which point West Northamptonshire Council can do as it wishes, including cutting the club out of it.

If the Council exercises the break clause, a potential asset to NTFC disappears overnight, and with it a huge reduction in asset value of the club.

Tick tock.
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« Reply #28724 on: June 25, 2021, 12:26:42 pm »

I think our supporters should read the response carefully. David Bower and Kelvin Thomas have indeed put money into the club, but it is loan capital, something to the tune of £6 million. This is a financial obligation of the club, not a gift, even if it is interest free. It is welcome, because it ensures that the club remains a going concern, and without it the club is instantly dead, as the auditors confirm in the most recent accounts. That has been the case for the last 20 years or more, but the club has never carried so much long-term debt. I would guess that the owners regard the club as a business and not an emotional investment, so they want something back. They have no chance of getting it back from core activities, as the club is loss making and has required at least £0.5 million annual injections of funds for the last two years. So the only realistic prospect of getting it back is to sell (which they did to 5U Sport (the Chinese investor), very briefly, but may do again) or realise some capital gain on the adjoining land. So there are two risks:

Firstly, West Northamptonshire Council may kill the land deal. They inherit a situation that is not of their own making, though some of the individual decision takers are the same. They are accountable to Northamptonshire taxpayers, many of which are hostile to the club for historic reasons (mostly the missing £10 million). Even if the development goes ahead, it will be subject to close scrutiny and will take a long time. If I was not interested in football I'd say they have bigger, more important priorities.

Secondly, the entire destiny of NTFC is dependent on one septuagenarian, offshore-based investor. Kelvin doesn't come into the equation; he is probably richer than me but I don't know if he has the means to pick it up and run with it. Personally, I wish David Bower a long, healthy and happy life, but none of us last forever. When Booth (former owner of Rotherham United) retired, none of his kids were interested and the club lost Millmoor. They landed on their feet. Eventually. Think about it.

Finally, this so-called, mysterious 'hidden agenda' of the Trust. The response says that the Trust wants to buy the club for £1. With respect, the question says 'Would you sell for £1?', which is a perfectly reasonable question as that is what they bought it for. I have been to every Trust board meeting except one for the last year and cannot recall ever discussing the Trust buying the club. Discussions of ownership models, including '50+1' have taken place, but I personally have never seen or heard a hidden agenda. I'm on the board because I want my kids and their kids to have a club to support. I don't want to own it because at 68 years old I've got enough to do.



We simply do not have the funds available now to develop us as a club as COVID has seen to that. The long and short of it is most Cobblers fans just prefer to have a league club to support.I don't massively disagree with what you are saying. But it has the potential to put the wrong people in the driving seat. The Council own the ground, they have the lions share in what is decided going forward. They should the ones who are safeguarding the future of their investment and the people they represent.This time they're asking questions and speaking to the council about their side of the story and getting nothing but flack and accusations of not representing the fanbase. It's a bit like when people sneered at the "we want answers" protests.  If you attend away games fans and chat to them you will soon realise that the outspoken experts on here are very much in the minority. It’s just a simple fact. The current two main board directors are business men hoping to recover losses by a land deal.
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« Reply #28725 on: June 25, 2021, 12:28:27 pm »

The only financial salvation for the owners lies in the non-ACV land adjacent to the stadium. The club has a lease on this land, and the whole issue of securing a right to develop that land depends on Council consent, as the Council owns the freehold. However, the lease on the non-ACV land is subject to a break clause in 2024, at which point West Northamptonshire Council can do as it wishes, including cutting the club out of it.

If the Council exercises the break clause, a potential asset to NTFC disappears overnight, and with it a huge reduction in asset value of the club.

Tick tock.

Jesus, you actually sound like you are rubbing your hands together at the prospect of that.  Did Bower and Thomas run over your puppy when they arrived to sign the takeover paperwork or something?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #28726 on: June 25, 2021, 12:30:50 pm »

I don’t think he understood the question as a request to buy the club for £1.
He does say “to them” but think that’s semantics.
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« Reply #28727 on: June 25, 2021, 13:05:12 pm »

All, in light of the criticism by some of the Trust regarding engagement and following a couple of communications to them by myself that have gone unanswered in an official capacity, I have sent the following communication directly to the board of the Trust. Hopefully any response may allow us to move forward and address a few of the concerns some may have?

Dear board members of NTFC Supporters Trust.

You may be aware through some of your colleagues and social media that a number of concerns have been raised regarding your operational processes and your commitment to the perceived intentions of your own mission statement by some members and supporters. You will no doubt be aware there have been a number of criticisms and objections that have have been raised at various points. Therefore I would like to take this opportunity to offer you the opportunity to respond to those allegations and alleviate the concerns raised by some. As an organisation that is run for the benefit of its membership and the well being of the football club, I would hope that you would be open to scrutiny. Additionally I would also hope you would welcome the opportunity to communicate your position and placate what appears to be a growing resentment by a section of your membership. To that end I have a number of questions that I hope you will be able to answer and perhaps put some concerns that I have to rest. I believe that it also may give an interesting perspective of the views and processes of the board and provide some reassurance to those members who may be feeling increasingly disillusioned with their only meaningful representation with the club.

I have noted that there have been a few changes to the board of late, with the announcement of a further 2 stepping down on the 13th June. Please can you reiterate the full current process for electing members to the board?
As previously stated, myself and others have expressed concerns on social media regarding the amount of engagement and consultation The Trust board has with its membership. What is the official response of the board to address these concerns?
There appear to have been some modifications to the mission statement of the Trust. For the record please can you state the decision making process the board would have undertaken to instigate any changes to the Trust mission statement?
These statements appear in the Trust mission statement.

A. To be open, democratic and inclusive in considering the needs and ideas of supporters.
B. We commit to being democratic, open, inclusive and accountable to the membership. Annual elections will be held for membership of the NTFC Supporters Limited Board - a third of the posts being open to election each year.
C. To encourage at least two NTFC Supporters Limited members, who are not board members, and representation of other NTFC supporters groups who are in sympathy with our aims and objectives, to attend regular meetings of the board.
D. We commit to supporting the aims and objectives of NTFC where, in the opinion of the board, these are not in direct conflict with the needs and best interests of supporters.

A. Please communicate the procedures and processes that best emphasise how this commitment is currently being honoured and adhered to?
B. Please can you identify how these elections are to be conducted? May I request that any response includes the reason only a third of the positions are up for re-election. Identify when the remaining positions are up for re-election? Finally regarding point B please confirm how this decision regarding the democratic process of the trust was arrived at?
C. Please can you clarify how any decision is arrived at regarding which individuals are to be invited to board meetings. Can you confirm how many members of the Trust can attend board meetings, and specifically how any decision regarding this matter was arrived at?
D. Can you identify specifically why this commitment to these aims is best served by being in the opinion of the board and not in the opinion of the general membership? Additionally how was the identification of the needs and best interests of the supporters established, particularly in conjunction with the commitment to inclusivity in considering the needs and ideas of those supporters?

It is my intention to post this communication on social media. However should you wish to keep any response private, you have my word regarding discretion.


Thank you in advance for giving your attention to these matters and I look forward to your response and any additional comments and observations you may care to share.

Kind regards,
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« Reply #28728 on: June 25, 2021, 13:38:59 pm »

You are right that the Council is the key player. But ultimately if the Council says no, delays a decision to the longer-term or exercises the break clause in the lease in 2024, there is no way that the owners can recover their investment. In that scenario they would have been better off putting their money in the Post Office, or even keeping it under the bed.

I question whether the owners have properly considered the risks to the club (as opposed to themselves) in the event of the 'doomsday scenario' of any land deal failing. They may cut their losses and sell to the highest of a few very low bidders. And as majority shareholders they would be legally entitled to asset strip anything left of any value in the club. Which means we would be gone, kaput.

I question the commercial acumen behind the current business model. How many people are prepared to risk several million pounds on the possibility of extracting a favourable deal from a Council that is extremely risk averse, and highly sceptical of anything to do with the Cobblers? To compound this, Kelvin has been quite critical of the former Council and they way it conducted itself (with some justification), but some of the very same people from the old Council (including Jonathan Nunn, its leader) remain in place in the successor body. Apart from a few people in this forum, who unquestionably believe everything he says, he has hardly led a charm offensive with people who really count in the process.
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« Reply #28729 on: June 25, 2021, 13:46:04 pm »

And as majority shareholders they would be legally entitled to asset strip anything left of any value in the club. Which means we would be gone, kaput.


What is the square root of nothing?
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« Reply #28730 on: June 25, 2021, 13:49:49 pm »

You are right that the Council is the key player. But ultimately if the Council says no, delays a decision to the longer-term or exercises the break clause in the lease in 2024, there is no way that the owners can recover their investment. In that scenario they would have been better off putting their money in the Post Office, or even keeping it under the bed.

I question whether the owners have properly considered the risks to the club (as opposed to themselves) in the event of the 'doomsday scenario' of any land deal failing. They may cut their losses and sell to the highest of a few very low bidders. And as majority shareholders they would be legally entitled to asset strip anything left of any value in the club. Which means we would be gone, kaput.

I question the commercial acumen behind the current business model. How many people are prepared to risk several million pounds on the possibility of extracting a favourable deal from a Council that is extremely risk averse, and highly sceptical of anything to do with the Cobblers? To compound this, Kelvin has been quite critical of the former Council and they way it conducted itself (with some justification), but some of the very same people from the old Council (including Jonathan Nunn, its leader) remain in place in the successor body. Apart from a few people in this forum, who unquestionably believe everything he says, he has hardly led a charm offensive with people who really count in the process.

I think that is a very unfair comment about people on this forum, I would say nearly all of the fans on here who have been critical of the Trust have also been critical of KT and DB. In fact most of us understand that they are in it to make money and not for the love of the club. The continual knocking of people who question the Trusts role and accusing them of believing blindly in KT needs to stop. This is one of the reasons many are critical of the trust, we all want whats best for the Club that is not just the Domain of the Trust who seem to think they have a divine right to support from the fans without allowing themselves to be questioned!
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« Reply #28731 on: June 25, 2021, 14:03:07 pm »

Think it will be interesting to see what plan the current owners have for the East stand later on. If it's just filling in what's there I will be very disappointed because effectively that will be the same as what Cardoza and his gang of crooks knocked down. I would rather see the current structure knocked down to start again than that.
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« Reply #28732 on: June 25, 2021, 14:16:45 pm »

Think it will be interesting to see what plan the current owners have for the East stand later on. If it's just filling in what's there I will be very disappointed because effectively that will be the same as what Cardoza and his gang of crooks knocked down. I would rather see the current structure knocked down to start again than that.
That would be expensive and would not represent good housekeeping.

Mind you I can’t see this meeting taking place without some really good news so we live in hope.

I’m sure KT is beginning to sense that fans whatever their viewpoint are now expecting more than just words as they have been hearing those for over a decade (six years of his own stewardship)

I can’t believe the club are holding this event to peddle more waffle with zero substance.
I don’t believe the board to be that foolish.
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« Reply #28733 on: June 25, 2021, 14:29:03 pm »


A. To be open, democratic and inclusive in considering the needs and ideas of supporters.
B. We commit to being democratic, open, inclusive and accountable to the membership. Annual elections will be held for membership of the NTFC Supporters Limited Board - a third of the posts being open to election each year.
C. To encourage at least two NTFC Supporters Limited members, who are not board members, and representation of other NTFC supporters groups who are in sympathy with our aims and objectives, to attend regular meetings of the board.
D. We commit to supporting the aims and objectives of NTFC where, in the opinion of the board, these are not in direct conflict with the needs and best interests of supporters. Really?


Kind regards,
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« Reply #28734 on: June 25, 2021, 14:46:25 pm »

I think that is a very unfair comment about people on this forum, I would say nearly all of the fans on here who have been critical of the Trust have also been critical of KT and DB. In fact most of us understand that they are in it to make money and not for the love of the club. The continual knocking of people who question the Trusts role and accusing them of believing blindly in KT needs to stop. This is one of the reasons many are critical of the trust, we all want whats best for the Club that is not just the Domain of the Trust who seem to think they have a divine right to support from the fans without allowing themselves to be questioned!

Saved me a post there, well said. Typical binary thinking from the Trust though in their tin foil lined bunker - with us or against us, no nuance or shades of grey.
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« Reply #28735 on: June 25, 2021, 14:50:21 pm »

Speaking of binary and us mere mortals lapping up everything Thomas says, while you are here Robert can I ask a very straightforward yes or no question:

Did Thomas offer to open up the proffered Zoom call to the wider membership and not just the Trust board?
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« Reply #28736 on: June 25, 2021, 15:12:35 pm »

This hasn’t really done anyone any favours, especially the Trust.
I don’t think I’m speaking out of turn to say (to the majority) the Trust are a faceless, almost anonymous entity. Meanwhile, the club have vibrant social media, direct access to local media and associated PR support, despite lacking in many other areas. It can always be cited that it is run by volunteers but that will only take you so far. Some of the people on the Trust should be the most passionate and driven fans we have, elected for their passion, dedication and skill set. It only needs one or two to make a big difference and doesn’t have to cost the world. Ideally they should also be critical friends of the club.
We saw previously that the common fan will be sympathetic and supportive of an owner, even when it became increasingly obvious that something was amiss. At the same time the cynical few will lump future owners in the same dirty bucket.
Actions (or inaction) always speaks louder than words and personally struggle to see how anyone can claim the current custodians have pulled up trees, or that we should feel eternally indebted, after paying £1, covering a few bills and then racked up debt without any tangible progress on/off the pitch.

Roll on the start of the season so that we can get back on the pitch and park the political posturing and BS.
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« Reply #28737 on: June 25, 2021, 15:16:42 pm »

Speaking of binary and us mere mortals lapping up everything Thomas says, while you are here Robert can I ask a very straightforward yes or no question:

Did Thomas offer to open up the proffered Zoom call to the wider membership and not just the Trust board?

Quote from KT
"“While the trust mentioned in their most recent statement that we only offered a Zoom meeting with them, what they did not mention was that we also offered for that meeting to be open to all their members and even all fans. We are just not sure how much more transparent the club can be".
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« Reply #28738 on: June 25, 2021, 15:30:36 pm »

KT organised this whole event to discredit the Trust, as I said the timing was laughable, there is a lot of Skeletons in closets, I think it’s time a few of them were revealed!
Just remember the land deal is worth upward of £100m, are we getting our fair share of it? Is it best value for the people of Northampton.
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« Reply #28739 on: June 25, 2021, 15:37:30 pm »

KT organised this whole event to discredit the Trust, as I said the timing was laughable, there is a lot of Skeletons in closets, I think it’s time a few of them were revealed!
Just remember the land deal is worth upward of £100m, are we getting our fair share of it? Is it best value for the people of Northampton.


I think thye managed that all on their own.
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