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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1989814 times)
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« Reply #29060 on: September 08, 2021, 07:45:41 am »

Absolutely Fantastic, the Trust doing what they were created for, great stuff.
Fingers crossed the council listen.

Of course all good stuff and I’m sure the council will listen  - but then what?

Great ideas which I’m sure all fans would support but somewhat thin on any tangible business plan - unfortunately the council have been badly stung by NTFC and without alternative (not KT and DB) financial backing why would they support the Trust’s suggestion. The trust state they would welcome financial support by an owner who had the interests of the club at heart - thereby firmly nailing their colours to the mast re the current owners but (1) was there any consultation with members on this thinly veiled attack on the current owners and (2) where are these new owners with the trusts presumed approval.
I have a bad feeling that the combination of KT’s self interest, the council wishing to appeal to the wider Northamptonshire council tax payer and the Trust’s wishful thinking will end up badly for the club - I truly wish I had an alternative and of course it’s easy to criticise but surely the Trust should be spending more energy trying to work with the current owners rather than being divisive  - or is it now a case of a battle of egos, and in which case our football club will be the loser.
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« Reply #29061 on: September 08, 2021, 07:58:55 am »

The Supporters Trust met with West Northamptonshire Council last night to express their concerns about the Sixfields land and stand deal.
The Trust remains far from convinced that the proposed deal is in the best long-term interests of the football club.
From the little information we have, it appears that the deal best serves the short-term interests of its overseas owners, David Bower and Kelvin Thomas.
The Trust fears that the proposed deal will see any football club profits wiped out by the loan repaid to the owners, leaving the club with minimal investment benefit, no cash in the bank and no land asset.
The Trust told the meeting that any deal represented a very rare opportunity to finally move the football club, and the town of Northampton, forward.
And we have asked the council to consider a partnership approach towards bringing forward an infrastructure foundation through which Cobblers fans, the club's owners and the local authority could invest monies and expertise to uplift the fortunes of the football club off the field as much as on it.
The prevailing lack of transparency around the current deal chimes alarmingly with the situation seven years ago, when millions of pounds of public money vanished on what was then Northampton Borough Council's watch.
The Trust would support and welcome any owner of the football club who clearly and openly demonstrates that he or she has the club's best long-term interests at heart.
With regard to the incompleted East Stand, does £3 million really equate to value for money when it adds just 200 more seats, 18 executive boxes and some lounges?
Why do the present development plans include building a logistics shed on the club's historic land footprint behind the East Stand which is protected as an Asset of Community Value?
Do we not now not have a great chance to finally realise the potential of Sixfields stadium and build something much more impressive to benefit both the football club and the local community?
Do we really have to have an industrial unit virtually up against the back of the East Stand?
Why can't that land be appointed for say practice pitches, a training ground, an athletics or other community sport facility?
Or a hotel, a conference centre, a fanzone - something with community benefit and income potential?
Why another featureless unit to go alongside the others earmarked for the rest of the development site?
Northampton's sports teams are great assets for the town - they should be nurtured and valued and encouraged to help make the town the best it can be.
The town's local plan is as much about maximising a health and wellbeing strategy as it is about economic development.
So many other football clubs are benefiting from progressive partnership working.
Coventry, Leicester, Peterborough, Milton Keynes and Luton are all within a 50-mile radius of Northampton - and they are leaving Northampton behind.
For the largest town in the country this cannot be seen as acceptable.

Here here! Good stuff from the Trust. Awaiting the latest installment from the KT/DB spin machine now...
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« Reply #29062 on: September 08, 2021, 08:31:12 am »

Don't you think The Trust HAVE tried to communicate and work closely with KT over the last 6 years Cobblerswatch?

KT has history with Supporters Trusts, at both Oxford and Torquay, and now here.

It is also a two way thing isn't it? How many times has KT offered an olive branch ? 

Some seem to forget the Trust are supporters of the club, they want it to thrive.

I expect KT suffers a little from following on from DC in which we have now had 10 years of development focussed owners, why little else changes and certainly doesn't improve.

The business plan would be for local professional people to being involved in the running the club at board level, with a focus on community and greater investment from a wider base, like other clubs have done.

Lets face it, KT has no ambition for our football club, some supporters want more and are now prepared to start pushing for better, starting with the land deal.
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« Reply #29063 on: September 08, 2021, 08:43:03 am »

It's fine to challenge but not it lacks concrete data, maybe due to transparency issues.

"The Trust fears that the proposed deal will see any football club profits wiped out by the loan repaid to the owners, leaving the club with minimal investment benefit, no cash in the bank and no land asset."

There has to be an expectation that the owners get their money back and some profit. Whatever has happened to lead us being millions in debt has happened. What is the quantified "minimal investment benefit" or is it a "fear". Is it a "fear" that whatever money is involved (£5m, £10m, £20m, £50m) will be pocketed by the owners?
I'd agree with the lack of transparency but that falls both on the owners and the council.

Let's have a transparent deal so we can see who is having what and if conversation gets bogged down about a shed then we all know nothing will ever get built, not in most of our lifetimes anyway.
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« Reply #29064 on: September 08, 2021, 08:56:33 am »

Hi Tone,  Do you think that the owners should get all their money back that they have badly spent on the back of delivering such poor value for money?

Do you think it is acceptable that NTFC loses valuable land asset just so the owners can get their money (which they already have from the Chinese deal) back and make a profit on basically asset stripping?

Its not our fault that we are again almost £7m in debt with nothing to show for it. That is mainly on the owners.

If the club or infrastructure had been improved, then there is a better case, but in 6 years the only thing that has changed is the debt has risen from £500k to approx £7m.

That is why the owners should not expect to walk away having recovered their monies and profit, without leaving NTFC in far better position with a positive future. That is possible but it's going to take compromise, ambition and effort.

If the land deal is going to bring a windfall then the Owners, NTFC and WNC should perhaps have an equal share

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« Reply #29065 on: September 08, 2021, 09:40:42 am »

Don't you think The Trust HAVE tried to communicate and work closely with KT over the last 6 years Cobblerswatch?

KT has history with Supporters Trusts, at both Oxford and Torquay, and now here.

It is also a two way thing isn't it? How many times has KT offered an olive branch ? 

Some seem to forget the Trust are supporters of the club, they want it to thrive.

I expect KT suffers a little from following on from DC in which we have now had 10 years of development focussed owners, why little else changes and certainly doesn't improve.

The business plan would be for local professional people to being involved in the running the club at board level, with a focus on community and greater investment from a wider base, like other clubs have done.

Lets face it, KT has no ambition for our football club, some supporters want more and are now prepared to start pushing for better, starting with the land deal.

Random - I don't want to get into a pissing contest on this and I absolutely agree with the proposal concept - what I'm very concerned about is the means to actually accomplish it - in the decades of me following the club the only people interested in "owning" the club have be "developers" or local businessmen whose pockets have never been deep enough to progress the club - from a love of the club I would always choose the latter but their track record is no better than that of "developers" - in fact they were more often the club's stewards when we face re-election issues at the bottom of the lowest divisions. There is continues talk about local businesspeople - who are they, what gross contributions would be needed to make the plan viable. Even a draft proposal on a fan bond scheme - all of this would add substance to the Trust's statement and indeed make the council more willing to invest in the concept. Can you not see the parallel of when you all take the piss at KT wheeling out out development plans (good or bad) and the trust's concept - neither are going to happen just because the words are spoken
As to your question of the Trust trying to engage with the owners I honestly don't know how hard - there is of course the well publicised refusal to engage in a zoom call and then pushing out divisive statement  but I'm in fairness I'm sure KT is equally to blame for this overall impasse - but the point here it doesn't matter who is most to blame and whilst people continue to score points nothing will happen.

As I've already said I don't have a good answer to this situation but I remain concerned that the current trust action could potentially do more harm than good
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« Reply #29066 on: September 08, 2021, 09:46:04 am »

I'm with you on this one CW. The longer this drags on, the more the club will be in debt to DB/KT. At some point they will see that they are throwing good money after bad and walk, but not without every penny they can recover so it will be goodbye Cobblers hello phoenix club. From my perspective on this the Trust are doing more harm than good.
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« Reply #29067 on: September 08, 2021, 09:52:19 am »

Of course all good stuff and I’m sure the council will listen  - but then what?

Great ideas which I’m sure all fans would support but somewhat thin on any tangible business plan - unfortunately the council have been badly stung by NTFC and without alternative (not KT and DB) financial backing why would they support the Trust’s suggestion. The trust state they would welcome financial support by an owner who had the interests of the club at heart - thereby firmly nailing their colours to the mast re the current owners but (1) was there any consultation with members on this thinly veiled attack on the current owners and (2) where are these new owners with the trusts presumed approval.
I have a bad feeling that the combination of KT’s self interest, the council wishing to appeal to the wider Northamptonshire council tax payer and the Trust’s wishful thinking will end up badly for the club - I truly wish I had an alternative and of course it’s easy to criticise but surely the Trust should be spending more energy trying to work with the current owners rather than being divisive  - or is it now a case of a battle of egos, and in which case our football club will be the loser.

Well said. Where are the business cases that justify the Trusts alternative suggestions for land usage? Where is the evidence that there's sufficient/any interest from fans in investing in an "infrastructure foundation"?

More pie in the sky idealism with no substance that will do no more than drive a wedge further between the club and the Trust while simultaneously throwing a spanner into the negotiations between the club and the council.
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« Reply #29068 on: September 08, 2021, 10:12:14 am »

There we go, didn't take long for "pie in the sky" to come out

You do realise how badly we are doing as a football club ?

You do realise lots of other clubs are doing so much better?

Why does the Trust have to justify and account for every single thing they say, whilst you don't raise one question to the owners?

Lets talk about business then, lower league football clubs have an income of about £6m on average, and chose to spend around £6.3m. So for the club to be sustainable it needs to either raise an additional £300k or more and or reduce costs. NTFC loses around £500k per year whilst DC actually managed to run almost at break even.

So the question is... Can Northampton with 100+ years of history, with a population of 250k and another 250k in surrounding areas, in a relatively wealthy area with many businesses, small and large, raise an extra £300k plus per year? 

If the club was to get a share of any land development and so start an infrastructure foundation with £5m (the East stand would not have been developed at that point), isn't that something supporters and locals could get behind ?
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« Reply #29069 on: September 08, 2021, 10:23:43 am »

I think it should also be said that KT has full time media people, CEO etc and £6m income to be able to produce business plans, ideas, marketing campaigns etc

The Trust at this time have an annual income of say £10k, run by a few volunteers, all of whom have full time jobs.

The Trust needs to attract new members, new board and new investment if it is to really investigate things like infrastructure foundations etc.

But they have to start somewhere, sometime.


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« Reply #29070 on: September 08, 2021, 10:28:09 am »

I think it should also be said that KT has full time media people, CEO etc and £6m income to be able to produce business plans, ideas, marketing campaigns etc

The Trust at this time have an annual income of say £10k, run by a few volunteers, all of whom have full time jobs.

The Trust needs to attract new members, new board and new investment if it is to really investigate things like infrastructure foundations etc.

But they have to start somewhere, sometime.




They do. But until there's some actual substance to any of it, it remains pie in the sky. Sorry, but it does.
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« Reply #29071 on: September 08, 2021, 10:38:53 am »

Hi Tone,  Do you think that the owners should get all their money back that they have badly spent on the back of delivering such poor value for money?

Do you think it is acceptable that NTFC loses valuable land asset just so the owners can get their money (which they already have from the Chinese deal) back and make a profit on basically asset stripping?

Its not our fault that we are again almost £7m in debt with nothing to show for it. That is mainly on the owners.

If the club or infrastructure had been improved, then there is a better case, but in 6 years the only thing that has changed is the debt has risen from £500k to approx £7m.

That is why the owners should not expect to walk away having recovered their monies and profit, without leaving NTFC in far better position with a positive future. That is possible but it's going to take compromise, ambition and effort.

If the land deal is going to bring a windfall then the Owners, NTFC and WNC should perhaps have an equal share



Hi mate,
Whether it’s right or wrong they aren’t going to walk away (or sell) if they can help it without covering their losses at a minimum and I’m sure a tidy profit if they can.
Just plucking a fictitious figure of £20m. I’m sure a bit finishes the stand, some would cover the loans and then who knows with the rest. That’s where the financial transparency is needed and I’m sure would be available if not published.
I struggle to see a happy ending for the club and at the moment I’d say there is definitely no guarantee they are going to get their money back.
Ultimately it’s a ‘business’ that is never going to be worth much without significant investment and success, so they’ll struggle to sell. Maybe they will cut their losses at some point but not sure where that’d leave us.
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« Reply #29072 on: September 08, 2021, 11:44:30 am »

Hi mate,
Whether it’s right or wrong they aren’t going to walk away (or sell) if they can help it without covering their losses at a minimum and I’m sure a tidy profit if they can.
Just plucking a fictitious figure of £20m. I’m sure a bit finishes the stand, some would cover the loans and then who knows with the rest. That’s where the financial transparency is needed and I’m sure would be available if not published.
I struggle to see a happy ending for the club and at the moment I’d say there is definitely no guarantee they are going to get their money back.
Ultimately it’s a ‘business’ that is never going to be worth much without significant investment and success, so they’ll struggle to sell. Maybe they will cut their losses at some point but not sure where that’d leave us.
There is no happy ending either way the club get shafted if we sit around and do nothing.
What the trust are doing is trying to limit the damage, the land is our bank account which we can massively improve the stadium and in time increase turnover making us a more attractive proposition to a potential buyer.
Sit around and let our current owners get their way and we will be left with a massive missed opportunity and In Deep shît, because as soon as the money hits DB and KT’s bank accounts they will be gone forever.

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« Reply #29073 on: September 08, 2021, 11:57:55 am »

or the bank account of NTFC Manwork

Whilst KT/DB are massive creditors of NTFC there is a big conflict of interest in terms of any profit share from a land deal.

Any potential windfall is lost and gone forever, all the way back to Florida & Dubai whilst Northampton loses big time AGAIN

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« Reply #29074 on: September 08, 2021, 12:02:45 pm »

Can I ask who people think which clubs are a fair comparison to use when analysing potential and performance ?

Peterborough, MK, Lincoln, Plymouth, Fleetwood, Accrington, Burton, Ipswich, Brentford, Wycombe, etc HuhHuh
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« Reply #29075 on: September 08, 2021, 12:37:05 pm »

Christ it's so boring now.

Rightly or wrongly I don't think I care enough either way. I just wanna watch football.
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« Reply #29076 on: September 08, 2021, 13:13:34 pm »

Can I ask who people think which clubs are a fair comparison to use when analysing potential and performance ?

Peterborough, MK, Lincoln, Plymouth, Fleetwood, Accrington, Burton, Ipswich, Brentford, Wycombe, etc HuhHuh

Potential, who knows?
No reason we couldn't do a 'Wycombe' on the pitch but for every one of them there is a non-league Luton or Oxford.
Would sadly never put us in the Ipswich bracket. MK and P*sh are difficult to compare. Support numbers wise, who knows. We hardly live in a footballing hotbed. Maybe we could replicate the Saints support with the right facilities.

Performance - in my 52 years we've always been sh*t with a couple of exceptions.

That 'potential' goes way, way, way beyond KT, DC and those who came before.
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« Reply #29077 on: September 08, 2021, 13:28:56 pm »

Christ it's so boring now.

Rightly or wrongly I don't think I care enough either way. I just wanna watch football.

Why even read this thread then?

It's actually the opposite, now is where they MAY be an opportunity to secure a better future, where you can watch football without the worry of being dependant on one investor. What would happen is something happened to DB? As the 80% plus shareholder and sole investor ?
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« Reply #29078 on: September 08, 2021, 14:06:36 pm »

Why even read this thread then?

It's actually the opposite, now is where they MAY be an opportunity to secure a better future, where you can watch football without the worry of being dependant on one investor. What would happen is something happened to DB? As the 80% plus shareholder and sole investor ?

I wish someone would tell me what this opportunity is. I still havent seen it.
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« Reply #29079 on: September 08, 2021, 14:12:57 pm »

Random - no one doubts your passion on the subject and I also know you are a doer not just a talker but I’m interested in your ideal realistic outcome on the current situation bearing in mind of course every action has a consequence - and by realistic it has to be more than simply a wish.

My ideal outcome is as follows

1) KT and DB get their land deal
2) The council enforce certain binding conditions- West Stand completion and some other reasonable  NTFC infrastructure improvements- but still leave KT & DB with a healthy profit that enables them to write of the £7m club debt to them and walk away
3) The club is then left both solvent and with a better infrastructure for the future
4) On this basis the club might be more attractive to local business people  to form a board of directors and finance ongoing cost and further development
5) Create a bond initiative- with starting stakes low enough for individual supporters to invest but high enough to attract more well off investors without them holding too high a stake to gain overall control.

As you can see my thoughts require a degree of compromise with the current owners - the trust stance doesn’t and like it or not the current owners currently have the ability to walk away, cut their losses and wind up the club - I think the trust are playing a very dangerous game.
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