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Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?

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Author Topic: Redevelopment Closer Than Ever?  (Read 1819973 times)
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GrangeParkCobbler
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« Reply #30520 on: December 04, 2021, 15:13:54 pm »

Thanks again GPC.
So there is evidence of the c£6m coming but not a record of what happened to it?
Where does The Idiot get his facts (not assumption) from then? Aside from being told by his 'experienced' solicitor friend?

Who is "The Idiot"? And is that sort of comment/namecalling really doing you any favours?
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« Reply #30521 on: December 04, 2021, 15:30:18 pm »

Indeed.....and that is a separate matter. I thought people were asking for evidence to suggest that it cost nothing for the current directors to get the club back from the Chinese.

I have outlined, using publicly available information, how that was possible.

The £6m figure is the amount paid by 5USports to gain control of Northampton Town Ventures in the first place.....paid in two payments, the first to Ventures outright, and the second which saw over a million go to Bower and Thomas personally along with the remaining portion to Ventures.

£4m initially for the first 60% and then 1.1m each to KT and DB plus c400k to Ventures to complete the 100% sale.  That's how the £6.68m figure is arrived at.

So there you go.....if anyone wants to ask Tom Cliffe to ask the questions on behalf of any interested fans..... is it correct that £6.68m came into the club from 5USports for a 100% shareholding in the parent company, and is it correct that they (5U) defaulted on the charge so that the 100% shareholding came back the other way for just over £1.1m?

No it isn't. The money went to the share holders, that doesn't mean it went to the club.
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« Reply #30522 on: December 04, 2021, 15:39:57 pm »

No it isn't. The money went to the share holders, that doesn't mean it went to the club.

Ok, so you accept that the shareholders (David Bower and Kelvin Thomas) received £6.68m for THEIR shares in the parent company of the football club, and then regained those shares by loaning £1.1m of the £6.68m back to the CLUB?

So DB and KT were £5.5m up on the deal, and since it went sour have continued to lend money to the club to keep it running, and it is that money that sits as a debt on the balance sheet of the club, yet if the club went to the wall then the owners "would not be affected financially" to any great extent..... it all adds up now eh?
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« Reply #30523 on: December 04, 2021, 16:23:01 pm »

Ok, so you accept that the shareholders (David Bower and Kelvin Thomas) received £6.68m for THEIR shares in the parent company of the football club, and then regained those shares by loaning £1.1m of the £6.68m back to the CLUB?

So DB and KT were £5.5m up on the deal, and since it went sour have continued to lend money to the club to keep it running, and it is that money that sits as a debt on the balance sheet of the club, yet if the club went to the wall then the owners "would not be affected financially" to any great extent..... it all adds up now eh?
You can lead a horse to water..
To be fair they did spunk a bit on JFH and his menage.
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« Reply #30524 on: December 04, 2021, 16:24:21 pm »

So there you go.....if anyone wants to ask Tom Cliffe to ask the questions on behalf of any interested fans..... is it correct that £6.68m came into the club from 5USports for a 100% shareholding in the parent company, and is it correct that they (5U) defaulted on the charge so that the 100% shareholding came back the other way for just over £1.1m?

Sorry GPC but you need to edit this.  It's extremely misleading as you seem to be implying that the £6.68m you alledge was paid for private share holding(s) is the clubs money or should have come to the club.
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« Reply #30525 on: December 04, 2021, 16:35:50 pm »

Sorry GPC but you need to edit this.  It's extremely misleading as you seem to be implying that the £6.68m you alledge was paid for private share holding(s) is the clubs money or should have come to the club.
Nope.
It's you that is implying something of GPC through use of the word seem.
He has either been extremely misleading or he hasn't.
Which is it?
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« Reply #30526 on: December 04, 2021, 16:43:33 pm »

Ok, so you accept that the shareholders (David Bower and Kelvin Thomas) received £6.68m for THEIR shares in the parent company of the football club, and then regained those shares by loaning £1.1m of the £6.68m back to the CLUB?

So DB and KT were £5.5m up on the deal, and since it went sour have continued to lend money to the club to keep it running, and it is that money that sits as a debt on the balance sheet of the club, yet if the club went to the wall then the owners "would not be affected financially" to any great extent..... it all adds up now eh?

So we seem to have gone round in circles yet again much as we did two months ago and two months before that.

So let's cut to the chase.  Say we agree on everything you have said, which I would happily do if I was supplied with the supporting evidence obtained by the Trust legal advisor and providing it wasn't obtained through unethical or illegal means.  And we are also willing to accept there may be some missing costs in your calculations.

Am I right in thinking the current owners could have walked away once they completed the sale of their share holding?  Was it a bad thing they reaquired the shares and loaned the club the money?

In summary what is your conclusion regarding the whole Chinese deal and what problems do you have with it?  Do you believe anything illegal has taken place?  And/Or anything unethical?  Do you believe any laws/rules have been broken?  Or is it simply the case that you are unhappy the owners made such a large profit from a private transaction and have only so far been lending instead of gifting that profit to the club with an assumed expectation that it's paid back at some stage?
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« Reply #30527 on: December 04, 2021, 16:46:15 pm »

Value is denoted by either what someone is prepared to offer or what someone is prepared to accept. Sorry if you’re confused.

No it isn't. Value is fundamental. It is the price that is arbitrary.
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« Reply #30528 on: December 04, 2021, 16:57:26 pm »

Nope.
It's you that is implying something of GPC through use of the word seem.
He has either been extremely misleading or he hasn't.
Which is it?

A) I think GPC would have been able to handle this one himself but thanks for your input.

B) I used the word seem as I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that he had simply made a mistake in the way he worded it.  The way it is currently worded is extremely misleading.  Hope that's clear. 

And of course the ultimate irony is that he is a representative of a supporters group that have already asked those exact same questions of KT and been given the answers.  So he could save anyone that's interested time and tell you himself.  Of course you could also ask Tom as well or instead just to be clear.
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« Reply #30529 on: December 04, 2021, 17:11:17 pm »

In a nutshell (from reading what has been posted and between the lines), the implied issue by some is that KT and DB pocketed money from a deal that went sour that should have been offset against the club debt against the club (generated under their watch), although the money was nothing to do with the debt….and that this information is in the (murky) public domain and nothing illegal took place but it is morally questionable or they have a particular sympathy to Chinese businesses.
Ultimately if they ever did walk about and we go bust (in debt to them) then they’ll never recover that money as we are worth pretty much zero.
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« Reply #30530 on: December 04, 2021, 17:13:35 pm »

A) I think GPC would have been able to handle this one himself but thanks for your input.

B) I used the word seem as I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that he had simply made a mistake in the way he worded it.  The way it is currently worded is extremely misleading.  Hope that's clear. 

And of course the ultimate irony is that he is a representative of a supporters group that have already asked those exact same questions of KT and been given the answers.  So he could save anyone that's interested time and tell you himself.  Of course you could also ask Tom as well or instead just to be clear.
Ok I'll put it this way,
Only an idiot could be mislead by the following.
So there you go.....if anyone wants to ask Tom Cliffe to ask the questions on behalf of any interested fans..... is it correct that £6.68m came into the club from 5USports for a 100% shareholding in the parent company, and is it correct that they (5U) defaulted on the charge so that the 100% shareholding came back the other way for just over £1.1m?

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« Reply #30531 on: December 04, 2021, 18:22:51 pm »

Sorry GPC but you need to edit this.  It's extremely misleading as you seem to be implying that the £6.68m you alledge was paid for private share holding(s) is the clubs money or should have come to the club.

Ok, I will concede the point that 100% of the shares in Northampton Town Ventures (which owned around 80% of the Football Club) were sold and THE SHAREHOLDERS ie David Bower and Kelvin Thomas received the money, rather than the club.

I've never understood the need for shell company after offshore investment company after parent company anyway!

And yes, I will add that Belle-De-Jour loaned THE FOOTBALL CLUB (not NT Ventures) £1.1m to keep it afloat in January 2018.

To address other points, yes indeed these questions have been asked of Kelvin, and to my knowledge he has never disputed that 100% of Ventures was sold (against the widely reported 60%), he has not disputed the sums of money involved when put to him, and he has not disputed the fact that a lot of money was made in the deal when it came back into its original hands. He has said that additional costs and legal costs needed to be added on to the figures presented, but not specified what they were.

Of course the easy way for this to be explained is for the CLUB to actually lay down what happened with this transaction, how much came in, where it went, and how they got it back. Again to my knowledge they have not done that.
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« Reply #30532 on: December 04, 2021, 18:39:39 pm »

In the circumstances described I would have a tax liability of 2.5 million, if I cleared the debt I would side step that. However, leaving that and the staggering incompetence of 5U Sport and their legal representatives, can someone explain to me what difference it makes to the club whether that debt to the owners has been cleared or not?
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« Reply #30533 on: December 04, 2021, 18:52:41 pm »

So we seem to have gone round in circles yet again much as we did two months ago and two months before that.

So let's cut to the chase.  Say we agree on everything you have said, which I would happily do if I was supplied with the supporting evidence obtained by the Trust legal advisor and providing it wasn't obtained through unethical or illegal means.  And we are also willing to accept there may be some missing costs in your calculations.

Am I right in thinking the current owners could have walked away once they completed the sale of their share holding?  Was it a bad thing they reaquired the shares and loaned the club the money?

In summary what is your conclusion regarding the whole Chinese deal and what problems do you have with it?  Do you believe anything illegal has taken place?  And/Or anything unethical?  Do you believe any laws/rules have been broken?  Or is it simply the case that you are unhappy the owners made such a large profit from a private transaction and have only so far been lending instead of gifting that profit to the club with an assumed expectation that it's paid back at some stage?

I will specifically answer these questions then with a non-trust hat on. Anyone who knows of my posting history on this site will remember that I did this sort of thing (digging and trying to make sense of stuff) during the Cardoza era too, long before I became involved with the Trust!

Chinese deal...what problems do I have with it? It just seemed strange right from the offset...an unknown company appearing, no history, seemingly no resources, suddenly being able to invest millions of pounds in a struggling fourth tier English Football Club..... it just felt wrong right from the start.

Anything illegal taken place? I don't know as I'm no legal expert. However, when you look through the filings of Northampton Town Ventures, Northampton Town Football Club, and Fantastical Limited (all UK registered companies) you can't find any record of any income at all. So if the Chinese paid money to any of these, why does it not appear in any of the filed accounts for these companies around the times of the transactions.
I would have thought that there should have been some record of something...??

Northampton Town Ventures filed a confirmation statement which was made on 4th November 2017 which listed no updates.....yet the two Chinese had been appointed as Directors of Ventures some three months earlier.

When Northampton Town Ventures was set up in 2015 the directors were David Bower and Kelvin Thomas, however the ONE share in Ventures was owned by a different company, namely Fantastical Limited. Therefore Fantastical "owned" Ventures. Fantastical had two directors, Bower and Thomas.

Fantastical though has filed accounts as a dormant company every year since inception. How can this be, when the Company they owned (NT Ventures) was sold in 2017? It wasn't until 10th August 2021 that Fantastical ceased to be "a person with significant control" in Ventures.

Am I unhappy that the owners made such a large profit from a private transaction? Well yes because I hate all the structure of the club, parent company, ultimate parent company etc....why the need for it if there are common directors for all? I'm more unhappy though that when talking the figures involved it now appears that the Football Club is in debt to the owners for a similar amount to the money they made from said private transaction, and that the proceeds of any land deal will go to pay that debt back to the owners. As Kelvin himself said, if this all went pop now, they wouldn't be too financially impacted.

It will take a more knowledgeable financial brain than mine to actually make out what has happened here.
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« Reply #30534 on: December 04, 2021, 19:06:08 pm »

GPC, your candour and attention to detail is exemplary. Likewise, your efforts to explain this in words of one syllable is well-received. My question is this, why has it taken so long to clarify the events? Northampton as a whole should be fully aware of what has gone on. Nobody seems bothered. WNC, likewise, should be very careful dealing with these guys.
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« Reply #30535 on: December 04, 2021, 19:18:03 pm »

In the circumstances described I would have a tax liability of 2.5 million, if I cleared the debt I would side step that. However, leaving that and the staggering incompetence of 5U Sport and their legal representatives, can someone explain to me what difference it makes to the club whether that debt to the owners has been cleared or not?

Cleared the debt? In what, whose debt? Fantastical nor Ventures had any debt as they had no financial transactions. The Football Club accounts showed debts for every financial year in question (no debts cleared).....so who could have cleared what debt?

You seem to know about tax liability? Can you explain the benefits (or otherwise) of how £4m paid by 5USports for the initial 60% shareholding in NT Ventures, a UK registered company 100% owned by Fantastical (another UK registered company) ended up in an account belonging to a company called Belle-De-Jour based in the British Virgin Islands seeing as BDJ had no interest or ownership in any of the above companies at the time of the transactions?
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« Reply #30536 on: December 04, 2021, 19:36:17 pm »

Why do certain members of the Trust have this obsession with this Chinese deal ? Stated before, and will say again, if you have a problem with it and you think something underhand has happened, please report to anyone and everyone who will act on the information you have , to keep repeating it over and over on here is making you look  rather childish, i for one will back you to the hilt if you have proof, so put up or for gods sake shut up.
 Same to be said to the people who are constantly having a go and the new Supporters rep' or the concept of it,  you had your chance to stand and you didnt have the balls to put yourself up there, you are becoming an embarrassment with your constant underhand sniping, just grow up a little bit.
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« Reply #30537 on: December 04, 2021, 19:49:31 pm »

Why do certain members of the Trust have this obsession with this Chinese deal ? Stated before, and will say again, if you have a problem with it and you think something underhand has happened, please report to anyone and everyone who will act on the information you have , to keep repeating it over and over on here is making you look  rather childish, i for one will back you to the hilt if you have proof, so put up or for gods sake shut up.
 Same to be said to the people who are constantly having a go and the new Supporters rep' or the concept of it,  you had your chance to stand and you didnt have the balls to put yourself up there, you are becoming an embarrassment with your constant underhand sniping, just grow up a little bit.

Why do certain posters on this board think it is all Trust v Club?

I post on here as GrangeParkCobbler, have done since I believe 2007.

Genuine question to other posters......is everything I now post tainted by the fact I have been a Trust Board member for the last 10 months, yes 10 months out of a 14 year posting history?

As I put in my earlier post...I posted the facts as GPC, just as I did when Cardoza was in charge. Many many (far too many) did not see what was coming, did not see that anything was wrong until it was too late. I was posting information then and asking questions, just as I am now. It has nothing to do with the Trust.........
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« Reply #30538 on: December 04, 2021, 19:52:49 pm »

For me, what also sounds unlikely is that the shares were transferred, the appointments of directors made, the resignation of the previous majority owner, and the legal charge using the shares to guarantee a loan actually took place without the Chinese paying up in full......... are you suggesting the club was sold "on a promise".....??


Probably! Many large financial deals involve theoretical money ( in other words gambling) Banks and Building Societies can lend up to ten times the amount of money they actually have! All nations round the globe all owe each other money.
On the strength of this theoretical money the club signed theoretically better players and a theoretically better manager!
At some point the Chinese takeover was pulled, why? The Chinese government changed the rules on overseas investment, was the deal blocked? I don't know, just asking.
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« Reply #30539 on: December 04, 2021, 20:05:34 pm »

GPC, the main point is you are are the one who says you are a run of the mill supporter, then youre banging the Trust drum. If you, in your Trust position , or you being a run of the mill supporter, has any evidence of wrongdoing at NTFC by the Directors, then use it, dont keep spewing out the same old stuff day after day. You are starting to look desperate for any information that can force as much damage on the Directors/Club as possible, for God sake just do something about it, if not shut up.
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